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Above-All-Others and The One Above All
- Thread starter Elizio33
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it looks fake due to the amount of likes for a reply.
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Eh, for future reference, just use the Twitter advanced tweet search to verify any legitimacy of any supposed tweet screenshot. I knew this screenshot was fake for months already for that.
Matteis was asked about Elaine Belloc, Overmonitor and the Great Evil Beast on Twitter on the other hand, he answered that he had no idea what those characters were. Much of Matteis cosmology sometimes runs off on outlier cosmology than anything else really.
The Matteis Presence is literally equal in power and portrayal to the Overmonitor (minus the metafiction), hence, the two characters contradict each other as they disagree on which character is the Void beyond all Voids. They cannot be the same, nor is Presence an avatar of the Overmonitor just because we think it is likely. Nor should Overmonitor scale to the Matteis Presence since Matteis's view of a Supreme Presence is literally overridden by the more accepted Morrisonid Cosomlogy.
To Matteis, Pralaya fills the role of Michael and Lucifer as Presence's 1-A emanation and regeant to Creation/Non-Existence.
Matteis was asked about Elaine Belloc, Overmonitor and the Great Evil Beast on Twitter on the other hand, he answered that he had no idea what those characters were. Much of Matteis cosmology sometimes runs off on outlier cosmology than anything else really.
The Matteis Presence is literally equal in power and portrayal to the Overmonitor (minus the metafiction), hence, the two characters contradict each other as they disagree on which character is the Void beyond all Voids. They cannot be the same, nor is Presence an avatar of the Overmonitor just because we think it is likely. Nor should Overmonitor scale to the Matteis Presence since Matteis's view of a Supreme Presence is literally overridden by the more accepted Morrisonid Cosomlogy.
To Matteis, Pralaya fills the role of Michael and Lucifer as Presence's 1-A emanation and regeant to Creation/Non-Existence.
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@Hykuu Then why did you add it in one of the sections on your God (DC Comics) profile if you knew it was fake....?
Where it mentions under "Notes," "Furthermore, Grant Morrison agrees that all these beings are the same entity AKA God" is where I gotten the link from and whoever gave you that link shouldn't have faked that in the first place.
Where it mentions under "Notes," "Furthermore, Grant Morrison agrees that all these beings are the same entity AKA God" is where I gotten the link from and whoever gave you that link shouldn't have faked that in the first place.
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@Matthew I shouldn't have double-checked to make sure earlier, mb about that and idk why I found the fake tweet on Hykuu's God (DC Comics) profile being used as a source, that makes no sense to do that.
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Also can you guys stop derailing this thread?
This is about TOAA not Grant Morrison.
This is about TOAA not Grant Morrison.
>We have seen Animal Man hurt Grant Morrison so he isn't powerful anymore.
I'm not familiar with the instance you're referring to but my argument is that a cameo appearance that appears on the page is a 100% fictional character and like any other fictional character he's just as powerful as the writer makes him. We shouldn't give characters special treatment because they look like real life people.
Their tier placement should be based on their feats and not metafictional interpretations of what they should be able to do.
>well it is. One is just Possibility Manipulation while the other one is Plot Manipulation. and Plot Manipulation> Possibility Manipulation since Plot created the possibily to have possibilities or create possibilities the first place.
This is a metafictional interpretation. You could as well argue that people in real life has the power of Real Life Manipulation (which would be the strongest power) and that the President of the US is the strongest fictional character because he commands the largest army and has access to the most advanced nuclear arsenal in the real world...it becomes silly.
If we look at it from a purely fictional perspective Starlin's TOAA literally wills infinite universes into existence. One of these universes is the 616, a universe where thsouands of stories by a hundred-odd writers have taken place.
>In Starling comics AAO has never been called TOAA.
Yes he has. In Infinity War #2 and in Warlock Chronicles #2 .
>They are different unless you can proof me AAO is a writer and could create stories via plot and use a pencil to create stories.
I'm telling you that they're different interpretations of the same supreme character. Starlin's TOAA doesn't need a pencil, he simply wills infinite universes into existence.
If you can get a Tweet, Facebook or Tumblr post of any of these writers or editors confirming that they're two different characters (not just different interpretations) then I'll agree with you. But as it stands it's just an unsubstantiated fan theory.
>Because it's scripted to be that way they have make it clear multiple times.
Why would it matter if it's scripted or not? Every work of fiction is scripted or written, that doesn't mean that George RR Martin will be the omnipotent force that repells the Beyonders in the "Beyonders invade the Game of Thrones-verse."
>They aren't. both interpretations came from the fantastic 4 story and from a guidebook. Where FF stated that jack kirby is part of the process together with every marvel editor and writer etc. And even the Guidebook said TOAA is the embodiment of every writer and marvel artist.
Ah, now I know what you're talking about. In FF 511 God appeared as Jack Kirby to the FF because that's what God looks to them. In fact he made this clear. There were no implications made (in the comic and there's no mention of it in any of the handbooks) that he was the he embodied the metafictional writer or anything like that.
I'm not familiar with the instance you're referring to but my argument is that a cameo appearance that appears on the page is a 100% fictional character and like any other fictional character he's just as powerful as the writer makes him. We shouldn't give characters special treatment because they look like real life people.
Their tier placement should be based on their feats and not metafictional interpretations of what they should be able to do.
>well it is. One is just Possibility Manipulation while the other one is Plot Manipulation. and Plot Manipulation> Possibility Manipulation since Plot created the possibily to have possibilities or create possibilities the first place.
This is a metafictional interpretation. You could as well argue that people in real life has the power of Real Life Manipulation (which would be the strongest power) and that the President of the US is the strongest fictional character because he commands the largest army and has access to the most advanced nuclear arsenal in the real world...it becomes silly.
If we look at it from a purely fictional perspective Starlin's TOAA literally wills infinite universes into existence. One of these universes is the 616, a universe where thsouands of stories by a hundred-odd writers have taken place.
>In Starling comics AAO has never been called TOAA.
Yes he has. In Infinity War #2 and in Warlock Chronicles #2 .
>They are different unless you can proof me AAO is a writer and could create stories via plot and use a pencil to create stories.
I'm telling you that they're different interpretations of the same supreme character. Starlin's TOAA doesn't need a pencil, he simply wills infinite universes into existence.
If you can get a Tweet, Facebook or Tumblr post of any of these writers or editors confirming that they're two different characters (not just different interpretations) then I'll agree with you. But as it stands it's just an unsubstantiated fan theory.
>Because it's scripted to be that way they have make it clear multiple times.
Why would it matter if it's scripted or not? Every work of fiction is scripted or written, that doesn't mean that George RR Martin will be the omnipotent force that repells the Beyonders in the "Beyonders invade the Game of Thrones-verse."
>They aren't. both interpretations came from the fantastic 4 story and from a guidebook. Where FF stated that jack kirby is part of the process together with every marvel editor and writer etc. And even the Guidebook said TOAA is the embodiment of every writer and marvel artist.
Ah, now I know what you're talking about. In FF 511 God appeared as Jack Kirby to the FF because that's what God looks to them. In fact he made this clear. There were no implications made (in the comic and there's no mention of it in any of the handbooks) that he was the he embodied the metafictional writer or anything like that.
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not sure if you're just trolling
Just believe what you want. I'm not going to give you any scan
Just believe what you want. I'm not going to give you any scan
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Alright I will try to do.
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This "Matteis Presence" doesn't exist, in fact I never saw any evidence that the Judeo-Christian God, a character who hardly ever appears at all outside of the Lucifer Comics, has differences between authors.
>not sure if you're just trolling
Considering I'm the one posting your evidence for you to clarify your position so I can refute it (which is plenty of work, and technically not necessary because the bruden of proof is on you) it's very unlikely that I'd be trolling.
>Just believe what you want. I'm not going to give you any scan
The Handbook scan doesn't exist, I went through every FF entry in the OHotMU and ANOHotMU and there was no mention of the encounter in FF #511.
If you don't want to argue for your position or substantiate your arguments with evidence then you lose the debate, that's how debating works.
You might be referecing the opening page from Ultimates 2 #100 , but then you don't know what you're talking about because that's not a handbook entry.
Considering I'm the one posting your evidence for you to clarify your position so I can refute it (which is plenty of work, and technically not necessary because the bruden of proof is on you) it's very unlikely that I'd be trolling.
>Just believe what you want. I'm not going to give you any scan
The Handbook scan doesn't exist, I went through every FF entry in the OHotMU and ANOHotMU and there was no mention of the encounter in FF #511.
If you don't want to argue for your position or substantiate your arguments with evidence then you lose the debate, that's how debating works.
You might be referecing the opening page from Ultimates 2 #100 , but then you don't know what you're talking about because that's not a handbook entry.
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I could show you proof but I prefer to keep them a secret. And it's not a burden of proof as i provided you to look at my debunk post which is where i posted most scans on but you didn't wanted to. So I never said Handbook I specific said guidebook. Learn the difference.
Anyway I said you can believe whatever you want why even try to argue when i'm already done with this? if you believe you won by repeating yourself the same arguments over and over that's fine for me. Just believe what you want.
Anyway I said you can believe whatever you want why even try to argue when i'm already done with this? if you believe you won by repeating yourself the same arguments over and over that's fine for me. Just believe what you want.
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"repeating with the same arguments" could be Argumentum ad nauseum, or argument from repetitio Fallacy.
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yeah i pretty much got tired of it so I just gave him the victory.
>I could show you proof but I prefer to keep them a secret.
This is known as an Argument from Silence fallacy.
>And it's not a burden of proof as i provided you to look at my debunk post which is where i posted most scans on but you didn't wanted to.
No you didn't provide anything, you suggested that you've adaquately refuted my claims somewhere and that I should "look it up." This is a text book example of an Argument from Silence fallacy.
>So I never said Handbook I specific said guidebook. Learn the difference.
The difference is semantic. And you're not making any specific references here either, making it impossible to scrutinize.
>Anyway I said you can believe whatever you want why even try to argue when i'm already done with this? if you believe you won by repeating yourself the same arguments over and over that's fine for me. Just believe what you want.
The arguments I've repeated were arguments to which you had not provided an adaquate response. For instance you argued that Starlin had never called his interpretation of the One Above All the "One Above All," and I reposted scenes from two of his comics where he did.
This is known as an Argument from Silence fallacy.
>And it's not a burden of proof as i provided you to look at my debunk post which is where i posted most scans on but you didn't wanted to.
No you didn't provide anything, you suggested that you've adaquately refuted my claims somewhere and that I should "look it up." This is a text book example of an Argument from Silence fallacy.
>So I never said Handbook I specific said guidebook. Learn the difference.
The difference is semantic. And you're not making any specific references here either, making it impossible to scrutinize.
>Anyway I said you can believe whatever you want why even try to argue when i'm already done with this? if you believe you won by repeating yourself the same arguments over and over that's fine for me. Just believe what you want.
The arguments I've repeated were arguments to which you had not provided an adaquate response. For instance you argued that Starlin had never called his interpretation of the One Above All the "One Above All," and I reposted scenes from two of his comics where he did.
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ok then. Even when I said i'm done you still tryna continue arguing. But its cool.
"Argument from repetition refers to someone repeating a statement often in the hopes that the listener will begin to accept it as truth, instead of providing evidence."Nedge1000 said:
This is not what I did I substantiated my arguments with evidence.
Yes because I want to give you a fair opportunity to defend your arguments, whether you want to have that opportunity or not.The Tetromino King said:
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ok.
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@Matthew
Oh, but there are differences. Matteis implies that Creation was dreamed by the Presence, and that Pralaya (an aspect of Presence) is responsible for Creation (not Michael and Lucifer) and that he is a transcending void that contains all voids while in Gaiman stories, the Presence lives inside it. Matteis also sees the Presence as Supreme which is in direct conflict with Pro-Monitorid Cosmology Supremacy in which the current Presence (who is not a Void beyond all Voids as the Primal Monitor fills that role, and Presence literally below the Monitors) exist.
In Sandman Cosmology, the Presence and all Gods was/is shaped/created by external dreamers which your Wiki explicitly outlines already. Which is the opposite of what Matteis is saying. And Presence is never portrayed as a Void under Gaiman otherwise Lucifer attempting to leave to the Void to escape his father would be dumb and futile. The Current Presence is also not Supreme and is subject to the Writer and the Overmonitor and is below the Monitor Sphere, which is not what Matteis would think at all and he doesn't even know what the Overmonitor is to rectify that.
Furthermore, the Sandman Presence was already succeeded by Elaine Belloc, a character that Matteis doesn't even know. And Sandman Presence is also already dead which is not something Matteis would dare portray. But in N52 we know that the Presence still exists as a Dog (The Voice) and not Elaine. There really are different Presence in how he works and operates by writer.
We know that Pralaya is an aspect of the Presence under Matteis, but under Carey, Elaine is the new Presence and Presence is literally dead. So what now, is Pralaya an aspect of Elaine? How does this work now? See what happens when you merge Carey/Gaiman and Matteis Cosmology.
We know that the story of the Garden of Eden for example, was nothing more than a reversible story in the Dreaming.
What they've done, how they cosmologically operate, and how they came about are totally different. Including the status of who is the true Tier 0 of DC. Their status is already different, in conflict with Morrisonid Cosmology. Whether this doesn't warrant any changes to anyone's profiles or not is irrelevant, the differences are there.
Oh, but there are differences. Matteis implies that Creation was dreamed by the Presence, and that Pralaya (an aspect of Presence) is responsible for Creation (not Michael and Lucifer) and that he is a transcending void that contains all voids while in Gaiman stories, the Presence lives inside it. Matteis also sees the Presence as Supreme which is in direct conflict with Pro-Monitorid Cosmology Supremacy in which the current Presence (who is not a Void beyond all Voids as the Primal Monitor fills that role, and Presence literally below the Monitors) exist.
In Sandman Cosmology, the Presence and all Gods was/is shaped/created by external dreamers which your Wiki explicitly outlines already. Which is the opposite of what Matteis is saying. And Presence is never portrayed as a Void under Gaiman otherwise Lucifer attempting to leave to the Void to escape his father would be dumb and futile. The Current Presence is also not Supreme and is subject to the Writer and the Overmonitor and is below the Monitor Sphere, which is not what Matteis would think at all and he doesn't even know what the Overmonitor is to rectify that.
Furthermore, the Sandman Presence was already succeeded by Elaine Belloc, a character that Matteis doesn't even know. And Sandman Presence is also already dead which is not something Matteis would dare portray. But in N52 we know that the Presence still exists as a Dog (The Voice) and not Elaine. There really are different Presence in how he works and operates by writer.
We know that Pralaya is an aspect of the Presence under Matteis, but under Carey, Elaine is the new Presence and Presence is literally dead. So what now, is Pralaya an aspect of Elaine? How does this work now? See what happens when you merge Carey/Gaiman and Matteis Cosmology.
We know that the story of the Garden of Eden for example, was nothing more than a reversible story in the Dreaming.
What they've done, how they cosmologically operate, and how they came about are totally different. Including the status of who is the true Tier 0 of DC. Their status is already different, in conflict with Morrisonid Cosmology. Whether this doesn't warrant any changes to anyone's profiles or not is irrelevant, the differences are there.
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I don't think derailling a thread which is primarily about Marvel and The One Above All with talk-talk about DC is the ideal thing to do.
So I would suggest the whole discussion about the Writer and the Presence to be moved elsewhere.
So I would suggest the whole discussion about the Writer and the Presence to be moved elsewhere.
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Is somebody willing to create such a thread (regarding whether we should delete The Writer profile and how we should handle the treatment of God in DC Comics)?
For the record, I think that Keikaku and Nether make some good points.
For the record, I think that Keikaku and Nether make some good points.
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Also, is somebody experienced willing to update The-One-Above-All's profile to include an Above-All-Others statistics key?
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Maybe something like this for Above-All-Others?
"Outerverse level (Superior to The Living Tribunal and exists beyond all space and time, but stated that it was unable to stop the imbalance to the multiverse caused by Thanos)"
"Outerverse level (Superior to The Living Tribunal and exists beyond all space and time, but stated that it was unable to stop the imbalance to the multiverse caused by Thanos)"
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Uhhh am I missing something or all they literally the same character?
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I will make this last post on this thread on the Presence matter because you replying to me about the issue Hykuu would be absolutely futile. Making an entire thread about it would be a waste of our time.
To prove my point, I only need the ENTIRE PLOT of Lucifer to prove I'm right about separating the different portrayals of the Presence.
Mike Carey did not see the Void as being the Presence, in fact, quite the opposite, there's a reason Lucifer was trying to escape his father by going into the Void. Trying to apply Matteis's view that Presence being a 1-A Void would absolutely wreck the entire plot of Lucifer. If the Void and the Presence were the same thing to Carey's view. Even if you think Morrison thinks the Presence and the Overvoid are the same. It would make the whole plot of Lucifer very dumb and futile.
That, and that Carey Presence is alread dead, while Matteis doesn't think so.
Done. That's it. I know there was a request to leave the whole DC out of it, but Presence was tagged under this thread for a reason I think.
To prove my point, I only need the ENTIRE PLOT of Lucifer to prove I'm right about separating the different portrayals of the Presence.
Mike Carey did not see the Void as being the Presence, in fact, quite the opposite, there's a reason Lucifer was trying to escape his father by going into the Void. Trying to apply Matteis's view that Presence being a 1-A Void would absolutely wreck the entire plot of Lucifer. If the Void and the Presence were the same thing to Carey's view. Even if you think Morrison thinks the Presence and the Overvoid are the same. It would make the whole plot of Lucifer very dumb and futile.
That, and that Carey Presence is alread dead, while Matteis doesn't think so.
Done. That's it. I know there was a request to leave the whole DC out of it, but Presence was tagged under this thread for a reason I think.
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YesAntvasima said:
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We don't need a header image for it I feel.
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