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2-A Battle Royale

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I was speaking generally but yeah. Nevertheless the SMT powerscaling chain should be compiled into a blog. +1 for Sera unless Matt would prefer to do it (not rushing, it can be whenever you want).
 
Kagutsuchi is anywhere between Infinitely Multiversal x 3 to Infinitely Multiversal x Infinity.

Kagutsuchi controls the Amala Multiverse, Metatron's voice was thought to be the Amala Multiverse.

There are other characters who he is above, like the Mother Goddesses, one of which is Ouroboros, the concept of Infinity & Eternity.

Metatron is strong enough to be considered a major, essential aspect of YHVH, alongside Satan the Demiurge, Shekinah, and Lucifer before he was discarded.

Lol-noping Hax is normal stuff in SMT if you are a god or demon of a higher reality. See the Demi-Fiend lolnoping everything from every Reality-warping universe-creating physics-breaking spacetime-transcending existence-erasing being he fights, and just punching his way through them.

Metatron can use Almighty attacks which bypass all defenses, resistances and shields, you just have to tank them. As a demon of his caliber, Metatron is much like Lucifer as he existences everywhere throughout time simultaneously and so killing him here and now is just killing Metatron in the moment and not for good.

He will always exist as long as the concept / idea he is and represents is believed and needed throughout all existence, and he is an aspect of the guy who embodies and controls all of existence.

Metatron is also described as all-knowing and all-seeing. While he isn't 100% Omniscient, good luck surprising him. He will know exactly what he is dealing with.
 
Demi-Fiend still swatted him like a fly. Literally... ;_;
 
Kagutsuchi is anywhere between Infinitely Multiversal x 3 to Infinitely Multiversal x Infinity.

W0t m8.

The last thing is already borderline High 2-A.

How come the rest of the verse isnt "Likely High 2-A" if they dwarf an infinite 4D guy.
 
@PaChi2

The Amala Multiverse has infinite universes with billions of new universes being created and destroyed every second.

Every single one of these universes has an endless cycle of death and rebirth, where they reach end of their eistence, then get turned into a Vortex World (Which is like, the universe fused with the Demon World), then go through the process of Conception where they are rebirthed into a new universe. This goes on endlessly for every universe.

Kagutsuchi maintains and sustains the Amala Multiverse throughout time. When it is killed, time ceases to exist and the Amala Multiverse throughout time with it.

So not only would it be erasing infinite universes here and now, but all infinite iterations of them throughout time.

This is highly controversial tho.
 
No, no. My w0t m8 comes from the fact that dwarfing Kagutsuchi's high end is 5D-like given that he is infinite 4D.

4D beings with 5D power.
 
I never considered Lucemon infinitely 2-A. Just so high end it's ridiculous. Never counted infinities in 2-A.
 
Dragonmasterxyz said:
I never considered Lucemon infinitely 2-A. Just so high end it's ridiculous. Never counted infinities in 2-A.
Click to expand...
If Ex's revision comes into play, Lucemon will actually become infinite 2-A, tho.
 
@Matt The Ur-Dragon's 2-A lowball would also qualify, with beings like Nicol Bolas and Ugi just being a few of countless tiny aspects of this being spread across the time and space of an infinite multiverse.

But it's not like anybody knows anything about this character considering how little information on it even exists.
 
@Matt

Ok.

Alright, on UKG's end we have Madoka, whose existence maintains a concept/law encompassing all the timelines, the absence of space-time between them, and the nonexistent multiverse beyond that.

Originally it was thought that when UKG would have reached her full potential, which dwarfs Madoka immensely already, she would have collapsed a universe with the sheer weight of her curses.

As of the Wraith Arc, a mere fractio of the curses of UKG was going to end the entirety of the infinite multiverse. That's how much her power grew

My issue is more that the lolnoping hax isn't on Demi-Fiend's profile. I don't doubt that it's legit, I simply want to know why it isn't listed.

Madoka is omnipresent and so is UKG

UKG doesn't need any concept to exist

UKG sees all possibilities as well
 
(I am checking up on this thread still and will come back to it when I can, but I'm kinda on a time limit to do IRL work atm)
 
So, from matt's description it seems:

Everyone and their mother from smt have extra-broken Power Null.

Im still iffy on the "Because Im stronger I lolnopehax" tho. That sounds like a trope to me. But eh.
 
BTW, me and Cal discussed that Lavos may be however many universes a mid 2-B could destroy multiplied by baseline 2-A
 
Well, atleast Lavos survived the mass-wipe.

Much more then the rest could say.
 
@PaChi To answer your earlier question regarding Arisen's hax/resistance from a long while back (Warning: Wall of Text incoming)-

Even within the gameplay alone, attaining resistance/nigh-immunity/immunity outright to Mind, Soul, Time, Curse, Poison, and Sleep Manipulation, as well as Petrification/Transmutation, Stat Reductions, and other such ailments (at least as far as it extends to beings of a similar power level/tier) isn't especially difficult. It's also worth noting that the Instant-Death roar of a dragon doesn't work on him, either, and that even without any resistance Dragons far stronger than him cannot under any circumstances inflict Possession.

Towards the end of the game? The Seneschal explains that Will is what turns the Eternal Cycle that the Verse's cosmology revolves around, that each Seneschal sustains their reality with their Will in order to maintain the laws of life, death, and volition that form the main conceptual base for the Eternal Cycle (relevant quotes ahead)-

"Will is that which led you to this place, and that which turns the eternal wheel of the world."

"Aye, there is life in the world, and with it death. Naught lasts forever. Each rises and falls in its time. But such is a death akin to that of pawns. They appear in this world, then vanish only to appear again, like bubbles in a mountain spring. As so it is with all that lives within this eternal world."

"Without volition, there is no true life. The world falls stagnant, dead as an ocean with no current to guide it. That volition is tempered by the struggle for survival. The decision, just like yours, to fight."

Etc, etc. Following this, you receive the quest The Great Hereafter:

"You have become the new Seneschal, keeper of the world. The Seneschal's Chamber shall be your home for eternity. It is the fate of the Arisen to dwell within these Chambers forever and always."

..."You are now Seneschal of the world. Find your own way to end the endless cycle."

Which you complete upon dealing yourself a "killing" blow with the Godsbane blade, signifying that the Eternal Cycle- that thing upon which the fundamental fabric of reality rests- no longer exists, and with it the multiverse. In spite of this, when the Arisen's Pawn falls to the "end" of the endless Everfall, and arrives once again in Gransys, the world functions entirely normally in spite of the Eternal Cycle's dissolution- a direct result of the Protagonist willing the metaphysical laws of reality to change while non-existant.

The very TL, DR of this all is Resistance (possibly Immunity) to Life, Death, Willpower, and Law Manipulation, as well as Manipulation of the aforementioned himself. Technically he doesnt "return" from non-existence, but it's questionable whether or not it can be said that he "exists" at all, at this point, and can interact with reality regardless. So...

So, if Lucemon were to absorb The Arisen into the Dark Area, to delete him from the existence and make him an aspect of the Seven Demon Lords? That's about the worst feasible thing he could do. At that point, not only would The Arisen cease to care about not existing, he would have direct access to the metaphysics of the Dark Area, and be able to reinstate the Eternal Cycle across Lucemon's existence (at least, if he is the Dark Area as you claim.)

What this would mean is that Nothingness would be replaced with Will/Volition, and require Will and Volition constantly in order to not sputter and die. (It may or may not also cease to be a BFR prison for everybody else absorbed.) Lucemon absorbing The Arisen would screw him over entirely, unless he has good enough immunity versus Death/Law Manipulation to suppress an effect able to effect an infinite number of infinite (in mass) universes with their own infinite timelines...

What one would probably need to deal with The Arisen at this point, other than just being a higher tier, is A: some kind of extra-powerful Sealing that finagles its way around all of this, B: the ability to block the above metaphysics shenanigans, and/or C: Power Nullification fit to take on a being of this magnitude.

Hilariously, Metatron is about the perfect counter for all of this, since as far as I can tell he no-sells Will Manipulation by virtue of being an aspect of YHVH's will rather than exhibiting Will of his own, and also nulls/heavily resists all of The Arisen's Light/Dark-element techniques (the best ones) in most of his incarnations. It probably isn't getting through to Yggdrasil, for similar reasons.

So, yeah, I still don't think he wins, but the initial wipe is just going to get Lucemon killed (or rather, incapacitated by virtue of being deprived of the Will he would then need in order to possess volition) if that's what's in-character for him to do.

So... yeah, that's my argument I guess.

P.S.: Can somebody, at some point please streamline Lucemon's Powers and Abilities section on his page? It's like, nearly two full pages long on its own, some of those elaborations can go in the Feats section.
 
1) Noice. Anyway, doesnt show he can use it in battle just like a Seneschal doesnt reality warp people or concept hax people when you fight them. Those are not abilities he can use in battle because he never used them for fighting.

2) You dont have feats of the arisen overpowering absorption of other 2-A entities. His Will will simply become Lucemon's, nothing else.

3) He never fought a 2-A, all the resistances from his first key are unusable because he literally trascended that form. So if a 2-A were to mindhax him, you dont have feats of him resistimg 2-A level mindhax. The resistances from the arisen come mostly from his equipment, the arisen himself doesnt have resistance to many of the haxes you listed.

4) Anything with Mid-godly negation is enough to kill The Arisen unless you have any feats of him coming back from beyond nonexistence.

Also, Grigori and the Arisen should lose their High 6-A and 5-B keys, Reality warping Gransys or the surface of the world are unquantificable hax feats that dont scale to their normal AP.

And no, Im not downplaying The Arisen in any way, the only problem with his 2-A form or his Seneschal form is that all the cool abilities never were used in a fight, imagine that Dialga mantained Time with his existence (like he does) but never fought anyone used time-manipulating skills. The Arisen lacks feats opposing other cosmic entities' hax.
 
Is this even really a proper fight, anymore? I don't think anyone knows enough about a all of the 2-A's to properly argue, which is kinda needed at this level.
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
Is this even really a proper fight, anymore? I don't think anyone knows enough about a all of the 2-A's to properly argue, which is kinda needed at this level.
Click to expand...
Implying it was a proper fight from the beginning.

Hah.
 
1) "Those are not abilities he can use in battle because he never used them for fighting."

So what? This constantly happens in fiction, especially in video games where attacks and powers of the sort of very hard to portray in gameplay. It's even explicitly justified in this instance since the Seneschal is just testing you to see if your will is worthy of inherit all of the Seneschal's responsibilities.

2) I don't need to, and I've already explained why. If Lucemon allows The Eternal Cycle to become a part of the Dark Area that is Lucemon, it will rewrite how the Dark Area functions in the first place. That's what I'm arguing for.

That, and no 2-A being whose AP = "infinite universes" can be meaningfully above or below another "infinite universes" level 2-A- infinity plus or minus anything at all is still infinity, and infinity times infinity in the way that we understand it for tiering is High 2-A, i.e. not allowed by virtue of this being a 2-A Battle Royale. Beating some other infinite-universe 2-A being doesn't make you a better 2-A, it means that either you had a better power-set or that the plot was on your side, by virtue of all infinities = infinity by definition.

3) What? That's not even remotely close to how hax works. Please stop.

The entire point of hax abilities in fiction is that they provide means beyond raw power of overcoming other beings in the world. There's at least a good argument to be made for hax not working on beings that are higher-dimensional than you, but if you seriously mean to tell me that "Nope, A is more powerful than B, so all of B's abilities that have nothing to do with raw power also don't work" then you don't know what the point of hax is in the first place.

Not that any of the above even matters, or has to be true here, because the hax resistance that the Arisen receives in the first place directly correlates to their overall strength proportionally.

The majority of Lucemon's assorted hax resistance feats were against 2-C's, far as I can tell, yet no one here is suddenly assuming that those feats "don't count."

4) I never argued that he would negate Existence Deletion (though this full well might). I argued that it didn't matter whether or not he "existed" in the first place. He was erased from existence the moment the Eternal Cycle was ended, that's what allowed there to be any reality in the first place (Will binds the "Life" of the fraying Circle itself fast across each of the multiverse's component worlds), and then after the Bestowal-of-Spirit BS or whatever that he pulled at the end of the game we see that the world is capable of operating just fine without it. (Also note: there were no more Riftstones, either, and no more Brine as indicated by the water not eating the Pawn in your body, indicating that the Rift/Everfall/whatever the hell the Brine is was also sealed away into this non-existence along with the Cycle, it being the infinite world-stack that contained the Seneschal's Chamber in the first place.)

I read up on the Lucemon respect thread regarding what exactly the Dark Area does in practice, and it hardly seems as formiddable as you're making it out to be relative to other existence deletes. Many beings "deleted" and/or within the Dark Area, and that are demonstrably weaker than him, are still fully capable of actions within the Dark Area itself, and a character that undertook actions while within such a deleted space within their own Verse definitely qualifies.

So, even if this worked, and we're to assume that he "ceases to exist", it wouldn't change his being able to Law Manip. from within the Dark Zone itself once he caught on to what was going on. (This may be High-Godly Regen and/or an immunity to Existence Deletion if that's how you'd interpret it, I've not specified since I've not found anything solid either way, and it may just be a non-specific unique hax ability.)

5) "Grigori and the Arisen should lose their High 6-A and 5-B keys"

Probably, yes-

"Reality warping Gransys or the surface of the world are unquantificable hax feats"

...what

This is blatantly untrue, all across fiction. If reality warping is unquantifiable regarding AP, then a lot, lot more characters than The Arisen would be downgraded... yeah, this'll get dealt with, but not for those reasons.

6) Already addressed.

7) The difference here is that this hypothetical Dialga doesn't do anything meaningful to/with the object/force that he is sustaining. This refute would work just fine for the Low 2-C version of the character, since this is in fact all he does, but that isn't relevant here.

8) "Lucemon does a pretty wonderfull masswipe. Deal with it."

"As strong as the plot needs him to be in order for SMT to be the strongest 2-A verse ever.

Runs"

"Implying it was a proper fight from the beginning.

Hah."

Could you like, not openly mock/act condescendingly towards other people in the thread?

I've explained what Character B does in this instance in response to Absorption/Existence Deletion, so please explain what Character A does in response to Law Manip./Reality Warping of this particular sort. That's literally all I ask of you. Conceptual Resistance might be close enough to Law Manip. Resistance, depending, so why not bring up and/or explain that time when Boltboutamon directly attacked his concept? That might possibly do the trick.
 
The real cal howard said:
Is this bad ending Lavos or no? Because it so, Chrono Cross can pull serious problems.
Click to expand...
There's a Bad Ending Lavos?

To answer your question:

if it's stronger than regular TD than yes.
 
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