Kamen Rider Revision: No More 2-A Edition

[MagiSinbad]

let just summarize it as

Three thousand worlds is a way for the author to say "all creation/existence"

 

[Lonkitt]

Pretty much what Magi said above, i would like add-on the reason why buddhism is brought into this. Throughout the series, Gaim have made countless reference to philosophy stuff from both Western and East sides, such as the Golden Fruit and the snake who manipulated Adam & Eva to eat it, Helheim, etc.

All of this was due to Gen Urobuchi who wrote for pretty much entire Gaim series. While the novel were written by someone else, Gen did supervised it. More so, the goal of the villain was to brought salvation to humanity which coincide with the main theme of Gaim.

While there are definitely some undeniable religious references in Gaim, I don't think we can use that as a means to support something as a term when it could mean several other things

 

[MagiSinbad]

While there are definitely some undeniable religious references in Gaim, I don't think we can use that as a means to support something as a term when it could mean several other things

Yeah, but the context has been repeatedly showing that "three thousand worlds" here include countless universes.

 

[Lonkitt]

Stuff like that can be used to argue a higher tier. We just can't use literal Buddhism as a supporting point

 

[MagiSinbad]

Stuff like that can be used to argue a higher tier. We just can't use literal Buddhism as a supporting point

Nah, we didnt brought buddhism cosmology here.
It's just the term "three thousand world" that the author uses, could cause members in this revision to misunderstand that it's literally mean 3 thousand universes.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

While there are definitely some undeniable religious references in Gaim, I don't think we can use that as a means to support something as a term when it could mean several other things

Even if the term is repeatedly used with countless worlds? We don't apply literal Buddhism to entire novel itself, the writer used the term to amplify the seriousness of situation when Kugai become one with all of existence.

 

[Lonkitt]

The statement of "countless" worlds is relevant, just not actual Buddhism

There's a few issues I have though, being that all the Armoured Riders are portrayed as vastly inferior to Kouta during the events of Drive x Gaim, with them even relying on bringing him back to defeat Megahex. This isn't even PIS considering it fits the narrative of how Kouta's the God Tier of his season. For them to share the same rating feels off

Grand Zi-O isn't considered on the original post if this upgrade were to come into play. He's no doubt stronger than Gaim. Plus there's the fact that Base Neo Decade could gain the upper hand against Another Zi-O II. Speaking of Tsukasa, I'm surprised you didn't bring him up as he kinda just pops in and talks to Mitsuzane during the novel. This is also a Pre-2018 Decade so keep that in mind

That said, I don't entirely feel comfortable with these upgrades

 

[Jamesthetaker]

The statement of "countless" worlds is relevant, just not actual Buddhism

There's a few issues I have though, being that all the Armoured Riders are portrayed as vastly inferior to Kouta during the events of Drive x Gaim, with them even relying on bringing him back to defeat Megahex. This isn't even PIS considering it fits the narrative of how Kouta's the God Tier of his season. For them to share the same rating feels off

Grand Zi-O isn't considered on the original post if this upgrade were to come into play. He's no doubt stronger than Gaim. Plus there's the fact that Base Neo Decade could gain the upper hand against Another Zi-O II. Speaking of Tsukasa, I'm surprised you didn't bring him up as he kinda just pops in and talks to Mitsuzane during the novel. This is also a Pre-2018 Decade so keep that in mind

That said, I don't entirely feel comfortable with these upgrades

The part of Kugai intergrated countless worlds still exist, whether you consider buddhism part or not. Since it's just the writer tackle with philosophy stuff.

First of all, the Armored Riders here aren't their usual self. Basically, they ascended to higher dimensional due to Saver System and stand on fair ground with Saver in this novel. Hence, why i've proposed new key for them instead. At the end of novel, Kouta literally just one-shotting Saver, as opposite to Armored Riders who have killed him for countless times yet unable to beat him.

I would take scaling chain in consideration later since it's a pain in my ass to do, so Complete 21 Decade come in first.

Fair point, since i thought Tsukasa appearance is just a cameo so i haven't take it in consideration. He probably receive some kind of telepathy via talking with Mitsuzane.

 

[Lonkitt]

A key for as needed Ryugen and Zangetsu feels somewhat odd. It would kinda be like giving Blades and Espada keys for when Saber amped them with Wonder Almighty. Essentially it’s a very specific scenario so I’m not sure if keys would really be warranted

 

[Jamesthetaker]

A key for as needed Ryugen and Zangetsu feels somewhat odd. It would kinda be like giving Blades and Espada keys for when Saber amped them with Wonder Almighty. Essentially it’s a very specific scenario so I’m not sure if keys would really be warranted

In this case, Armored Riders were brought to higher dimension via Saver System second activation, they basically go through the same process as Saver and would get most of his abilities.

 

[Lonkitt]

Yeah, that’s essentially why I feel it may be a little more reliant on Saver’s presence

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Yeah, that’s essentially why I feel it may be a little more reliant on Saver’s presence

Nah, they aren't entirely reliant on Saver himself. They went through a process by Saver System machine and gained new powers/tier from it.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

@Lonkitt So, what's your conclusion?

 

[Lonkitt]

I still think my thoughts are the same given the nature of the Saver System, both in the previous movie and described in the novel

 

[Jamesthetaker]

I still think my thoughts are the same given the nature of the Saver System, both in the previous movie and described in the novel

Well, Gaim is still portrayed as the strongest being given the statement around Golden Fruit and him one-shotting Saver.

Saver System is exactly what i've described here and Armored Riders new key does fit our critique, but i will wait if you wanted to change your mind.

 

[Lonkitt]

Its not that I don't believe the Saver System is what it is here. Its just that I'm not sure about giving Ryugen and Zangetsu new keys for a machine that gave them powers briefly

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Its not that I don't believe the Saver System is what it is here. Its just that I'm not sure about giving Ryugen and Zangetsu new keys for a machine that gave them powers briefly

Why not? They did get their power briefly but it's not a reason to dismiss them. They got new power/tier and actually have feats of themselves.

I could name a few characters that were powered by a certain objects for brief time or so.

 

[Lonkitt]

I'm not opposed to those characters having keys like the either. But the difference for me is that a character like Saver had that system as a primary tool for himself. Ryugen and Zangetsu pretty much got buffed but not intentionally. Essentially, they're not exactly "users" of the system. That's why I'm comparing it to how Blades and Espada don't get keys or ratings for being briefly buffed by Saber's Wonder Almighty

 

[Jamesthetaker]

I'm not opposed to those characters having keys like the either. But the difference for me is that a character like Saver had that system as a primary tool for himself. Ryugen and Zangetsu pretty much got buffed but not intentionally. Essentially, they're not exactly "users" of the system

Well, the whole point of Saver System is to make everyone go higher dimension like Kugai is. Mainly because he is already one in first place, the system was his goal to give salvation for everyone.

 

[Lonkitt]

Kugai wasn't always a higher dimension being and only became one through the means of the Saver System

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Kugai wasn't always a higher dimension being and only became one through the means of the Saver System

He become prior to the novel, back when Duke spin-off, he died in one of the experiment and become a higher dimesional being, but unable to interact with the world.

If you can, please read the OP once again because i'm kinda busy at this point.

 

[Lonkitt]

I have read the OP, yes

I simply don't believe the Saver System, given its conception/origin and nature, should be used to provide new higher tiers for Ryugen and Zangetsu

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Disagree with op fra

 

[Jamesthetaker]

I have read the OP, yes

I simply don't believe the Saver System, given its conception/origin and nature, should be used to provide new higher tiers for Ryugen and Zangetsu

I don't see your point here, Saver System purpose is to affect normal people only, which included Armored Riders. Not only the Riders managed to keep their individuality, they also killed Saver for countless times.

Saver himself is already higher dimensional so he has no uses for the system beyond the reason above. This is different from Wonder Almighty where Espada and Blade entirely reliant on Saber to amped them.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Bump.

 

[Vietthai96]

Bump.

Ask staffs in their wall to evaluate other content bro

 

[deonment]

Yeah, but the context has been repeatedly showing that "three thousand worlds" here include countless universes.

sorry to do this, but um, we cant use cultural or religious context for stuff like this anymore, for example, unless we have a direct statement of the sands of the Ganges being infinite, then you cant try and use the context that would act as the background for said statement, so statements using the sands of the Ganges only can use the number of sands that are literally in the ganges, and statements such as these only refer to three thousand worlds, no more no less, unless the verse states or implies otherwise

 

[Jamesthetaker]

sorry to do this, but um, we cant use cultural or religious context for stuff like this anymore, for example, unless we have a direct statement of the sands of the Ganges being infinite, then you cant try and use the context that would act as the background for said statement, so statements using the sands of the Ganges only can use the number of sands that are literally in the ganges, and statements such as these only refer to three thousand worlds, no more no less, unless the verse states or implies otherwise

I've never said to use entire Buddhism for the context.

Three thousand worlds isn't an explicit numbers since the term countless are being used with it, which won't make sense if you think about it. It is how the writer tackle with philosophy to amplify the danger of situation in hindsight.

This is just one phrase to sum up the whole contxt like saying "He has become one with all worlds/existence". Given the series is known for its references to mythology and religious stuff in-series.

 

[MagiSinbad]

unless the verse states or implies otherwise

Yes, the verse did state otherwise, there are "countless worlds" in the quote i posted above.
we didnt bring the buddhist cosmology into this.

 

[deonment]

I've never said to use entire Buddhism for the context.

Three thousand worlds isn't an explicit numbers since the term countless are being used with it, which won't make sense if you think about it. It is how the writer tackle with philosophy to amplify the danger of situation in hindsight.

This is just one phrase to sum up the whole contxt like saying "He has become one with all worlds/existence". Given the series is known for its references to mythology and religious stuff in-series.

yeah, i know that, but thats how it works, we cant use context from outside the media for stuff like this, so it just doesn't work

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Yeah everything in the OP is fine.

 

[MagiSinbad]

yeah, i know that, but thats how it works, we cant use context from outside the media for stuff like this, so it just doesn't work

Yes, James and I know that pretty well.
But this is judging from the context of the novel, otherwise, we would just treat "three thousand realms" as what it literally is.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

yeah, i know that, but thats how it works, we cant use context from outside the media for stuff like this, so it just doesn't work

The novel explicitly uses the word when talking about universe. It clearly mean three thousand worlds here refers to all creation.

In this case, there is no reason for the author to choose a specific number out of nowhere, for an antagonist who to bring salvation and control a cult named Black Bodhi. Seem like too much coincidences for a series that uses mythology and religious as platform eh?

 

[Jamesthetaker]

@deonment No offensive though, but the assumption is based on pre-established lore and etymology of the verse, obviously not something we pointed out via coincidence.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Bump.

 

[Confluctor]

Low 1-C would get changed to 2-B via these statement as they mentioned countless worlds expanding endlessly. Also, here is the abilities they would get:

• Immortality (Type 4 and 5; Scaling to Kamen Rider Saver, who are said to transcended life and death. Saver keep resurrecting even after killed by Armored Riders for an uncountable number of times)
• Fusionism: (Scaling to Kamen Rider Saver, who integrated all of existence into himself)

How does the scaling work in this case? Also if he has immortality type 5, how was he killed initially?

• Higher-Dimensional Existence and Non-Corporeal: (Saver System brought one's spirit into higher dimension while their body got extinguished)

Was the soul kept safe by the system?

• Nigh-Omniscience: (The people of Zawame city, after being enlightened by Saver System, are said to achieved omniscience)

...Do we actually see anyone get close to it? Or this character gets close to that level?


Now I understand the cosmology (?) is 2-B, but how does the scaling chain works here and why would they be affected? Did they fight one another or...? I am just trying to get a bit more context

 

[Vietthai96]

1-B cosmology?, Confluctor you past 180 mins limit, you should rest bro

 

[Confluctor]

Shit, just realised.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Shit, just realised.

Confluctor has activated Slowpoke mode:

 

[Confluctor]

I am going on a 4 hour sleep today lol