Should Tokyo Revengers remain on the wiki, and in what form?

[Deagonx]

Hello.

The subject of Tokyo Revengers came up on the RVR recently. The verse ends up being mentioned in RVR somewhat frequently despite having a relatively small following. We've also had numerous instances of sockpuppets from users who are primarily interested in Tokyo Revengers. The possibility of deleting it was brought up, but RVR is not the appropriate place to have such a discussion.

I am making this thread to provide a venue for discussing the issue with Tokyo Revengers. The verse, and the many toxic/immature users who seem to orbit it, have created a disproportionate burden on both our CGMs and moderators and we should likely do something about that.

Deleting it is not the only option, of course. I am open to any suggestions that might help curb the issue. Other ideas that I considered were disallowing participation from users under a certain account age, to help mitigate the influx of sockpuppets and users recruited to the forum by these individuals. One member suggested temporarily freezing the verse, locking all of it's pages until some point in the future. Et cetera. Open to ideas.

This is a staff discussion thread, so any non-staff must seek permission to comment here.

 

[Deagonx]

@Antvasima @Mr._Bambu @DarkGrath @Dalesean027

 

[Damage3245]

I'm not a fan of deleting verses outright because of the actions of a few users.

One option I'd prefer more than deletion is freezing the verse; allowing no revisions or new calcs for it, for a period of time such as 1 year.

 

[Antvasima]

Hi, I am sorry for bothering you here but i couldn't stay silent about this either. I know another thread might pop up later down the line but i might as well say it here.
I think that instead of deleting the verse, we should freeze it. As in, ban all CRTs in regards to it and ban trying to get calcs for it accepted and finally just straight up lock all the profiles there. There are many verses that are inactive on our wiki and are pretty much frozen despite their series being ongoing, but nobody complains about that, so maybe doing that with this verse would be better as, even though it is only 9-B, it is a pretty big manga/anime, so wiping it out of existence might not be a good option. Additionally we'd be playing into vapourr's hands as he'd end up "winning" in the sense that he'd force us to delete a verse because of him, making it a "If I can't have it, no one can" situation.

If you are heavily against freezing the verse then ig another variant is to give very specific trusted people power over the verse and nobody else so that they can actually keep it updated as long as they break no rules.

If you think my suggestions aren't worth consideration then delete this reply.

These seem like good ideas to me at least.

Maybe we can combine them with a versus thread ban for the verse as well, given the frequent toxicity in such threads that was reported above?

Here are my current thoughts regarding the issue.

 

[Dalesean027]

I'm not opposed to a one year freeze

 

[Deagonx]

I originally advocated for deletion, but I'd be fine with a freeze as it would allow the work that had already been done on the verse from being a waste.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Freezing or deleting the verse means that we're not gonna deal with said users anymore, which is good. It will also prevent socks from Vapourrr if this verse gets nuked/frozen.

When I suggested the deletion earlier this month I was thinking that not only the supporters are a pain in the ass but the verse basically have no powerscaling, I mean, it's all basic "feats" and a few are wanked to get higher results. But we have verses that have little to no powerscaling in them so I think that's not an argument anymore.

 

[KingTempest]

I think freezing it is solid

 

[KLOL506]

I honestly don't care. As long as it means its weird-ass supporters don't stalk me.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Freezing it seems like a good option to me. Means we don’t have to deal with unreasonable supporters while also not wasting the work put into the verse

 

[Planck69]

Freezing works for me.

 

[Deagonx]

Okay. I'd like to clarify if this will extend to versus matches. I strongly believe that it should, but I could see how the idea of freezing the pages does not obviously disallow match ups so I wanted to ask. I think benefits we're aiming for with this move would be heavily counteracted by continued versus threads.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, I agree about not allowing versus threads for the verse anymore either.

 

[DMUA]

I guess there is the freezing alternative so I don't really need to explain that I don't quite think it should be deleted, but I'll also state on the other hand that I'm willing to have the trigger pulled if I'm literally the last person who wants to deal with these supporters

Okay. I'd like to clarify if this will extend to versus matches. I strongly believe that it should, but I could see how the idea of freezing the pages does not obviously disallow match ups so I wanted to ask. I think benefits we're aiming for with this move would be heavily counteracted by continued versus threads.

I can't even imagine what the versus threads are like so just immolate by fire

 

[Dereck03]

I agree with extending it to match ups, I think it has been said previously but I had to close like 8 threads and leave warnings that wouldn't it be better if no more match ups were created due to drama, reports, jokes, spite, whatever and it was already a bit tiresome that every now and then people would write to me to take care of said threads.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I agree with the consensus here.

 

[M3X_2.0]

What about calculation blogs?

 

[Deagonx]

I think we should probably include calc blogs as well. My main reason is, it's trivial to simply work on a calc elsewhere, and having public calc blogs simply invites the very issues we are attempting to avoid. They will be a venue for petty bickering, CGMs will likely be pestered to evaluate them, et cetera.

 

[Armorchompy]

I can agree with freezing, 1 year seems a bit much? I feel like we should try 6 months personally.

 

[Deagonx]

I am fine with any amount, but I feel like 1 year will be a bit more effective in dissuading the base of users who really only participate here for TR from sticking around, whereas 6 months is more likely to be waited out by this group. I suppose the same could be said between any two lengths of time, but I am a bit more inclined towards the full year.

 

[Arceus0x]

I was allowed to comment by Deagonx

I think we should probably include calc blogs as well. My main reason is, it's trivial to simply work on a calc elsewhere, and having public calc blogs simply invites the very issues we are attempting to avoid. They will be a venue for petty bickering, CGMs will likely be pestered to evaluate them, et cetera.

I think calc blogs should be allowed since blogs can be about anything as long as they don't have categories in them.
Just block them from asking CGMs to review them. Perhaps calcs made during the freeze will never be allowed to be evaluated?

I can agree with freezing, 1 year seems a bit much? I feel like we should try 6 months personally.

The you-know-who who is the cause of like 90% of the TR issues is very patient. He'll wait 6 months like it's nothing while cooking up socks whilst revising... Lookism, probably.
A year though? It's gonna be a pain for him to wait.
Heck, if we weren't merciful we could go for a year and half, maybe 2 since that would certainly do the trick.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

I agree with freezing

 

[Dalesean027]

yeah and half, maybe 2

Best believe the thought crossed my mind but yeah I feel 6 months is too lenient here and think a year is in order

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I apologize for posting without permission, I posted out of impulse till I realized after it was deleted. I have permission now from @DarkGrath.

---

It's unfortunate that verse keeps coming up in RVR due to a few individuals' actions. I didn't think it was a problem. In my opinion, you guys are handling the situation well in that thread.

I believed that the situation related to the verse has immensely improved and is still gradually improving. There haven't been many CRTs about the verse lately. The recent reports mainly revolved around a sockpuppet situation or the Vapour sockpuppet bringing up old issues from months-old threads. The one recent CRT I saw was effectively managed by @DarkGrath and @Dereck03. Things appeared to be going smoothly in that thread.

However, there has been a recent increase in versus matches against Mikey, primarily from @XxZetsuxX, which seems to be stirring things up again. @Dereck03 is already addressing the situation and offered suggestions which most of us are following funny enough. While I may not be aware of CGMs STILL receiving calculations enmass, it's clear that they can easily decline them, and further pressure can be ignored or reported.

I don't believe freezing the entire verse is fair because there are genuine supporters, including me, who have plans for the near future. Please just keep up the good work… it truly is working.

 

[Arceus0x]

Whilst I understand Arnold's sentiment the thing that brought up this entire idea was in fact the sock situation. Vapourr is getting better at hiding his tracks. He still sucks ass at it but as Deagon (i think it was him) said in the RVR thread, we can't deal with this war of attrition. If a barely significant verse requires immense control to find socks of some loser who keeps ruining people's fun, then is that verse truly useful? Isn't freezing it a better option? Also, there are less CRTs now, doesn't that just mean we've even more reason to freeze it for a while?

I won't argue any further about this, but these are my thoughts about this. If you think it makes no sense or if you think it does, discuss it between yourselves. I am out.

 

[Propellus]

I don't believe freezing the entire verse is fair because there are genuine supporters, including me, who have plans for the near future. Please just keep up the good work… it truly is working.

The main problem I see with this is attempting to fix the verse doesn't seem to be getting anywhere at all, and the supporters seem inconsistent in wanting to have the verse improve but rather just make it even worse over time. It's grown into a huge issue that we have numerous cases of these supporters (especially those who keep making socks) getting sent to the RVR for their actions. Freezing the verse does seem like a fair punishment if the supporters are unable to get their stuff together with the verse.

 

[M3X_2.0]

I think we're past this "we're fixing the verse" part. No, you're not fixing the verse. It won't get fixed. You'll probably bother me, KLOL, Dale or any other CGM with calculations as you all did throughout these past few months. And then bother a lot of thread moderators (And they probably won't answer because of the mess the threads normally are).

Fiction is big as **** guys, I'm sure y'all will find something else to do on the wiki.

But if y'all really want to not freeze the verse, I'd recomment a very strict thread with only a few members participating and heavy staff interference so it won't go to shit in a few posts like usual.

 

[Dalesean027]

if y'all really want to not freeze the verse, I'd recomment a very strict thread with only a few members participating and heavy staff interference so it won't go to shit in a few posts like usual.

Problem with this is that we already did this and literally not even a full hour after said staff thread was concluded an upgrade thread was made once again to against it and the same feats we went over in the staff thread are the same ones that are still consistently popping up albiet with a couple of additional ones that have still been rejected several times across different crts.

I think a freeze is fully in order personally

 

[Deagonx]

Yeah I recall the "strict supervision" approach didn't really work out the first time around.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Yeah I recall the "strict supervision" approach didn't really work out the first time around.

We literally fixed the verse with strict supervision. Where are you guys getting the idea that it didn’t work? There are no bad calculations on the verse page anymore. The statistics on pages are set properly.

The only problem was that another thread was made immediately after? I mean it looks bad considering it was immediately after the verse was fixed but it even improved the verse although the lack of “strict supervision” made that very difficult but something came out of it thanks to @Dalesean027, I and a very few other genuine supporters.

 

[First_Witch]

If I may be so bold and recommend another possibility that could get the situation under control without stepping onto the toes of the decent part of the fanbase;

How about a minimum requirement of 1 year and 1k posts before a user is allowed to contribute to Tokyo Revengers? The year minimum would ensure that the user in question isnt a sock, while the 1k post requirement ensures that the user in question has a history of (hopefully) good behavior. After all, we would know if user with actual history on this platform is mature enough to contribute to the verse without contributing to everyones headaches.

New users who do not fulfil this requirement should be given a headsup of the situation should they participate in TR threads, with every post in TR afterwards being treated as a rule violation that can lead to a ban.

Under this rule TR threads can continue to be made, by users we know arent blatant socks/part of their supposed Discord servers.

Obviously the age and post edges can be adjusted, god forbid Vap/Cloud had been active before the accounts they are known as now, but it will hamper any new socks from being disruptive at the cost of... Idk, Arnold?

 

[Armorchompy]

That sounds very fair, actually.

 

[Dalesean027]

Yeah I can live with that actually

 

[Deagonx]

I mentioned that approach in the OP, so I'm certainly okay with it, but at the moment it looks like there is stronger support for a freeze. Perhaps we could do a combination of both? Freeze for a shorter period like 6 months, and then open it back up to more established users?

 

[Propellus]

I mentioned that approach in the OP, so I'm certainly okay with it, but at the moment it looks like there is stronger support for a freeze. Perhaps we could do a combination of both? Freeze for a shorter period like 6 months

6 months is way too short of a punishment, all that would do is just give those certain supporters more time to start making even more socks to wait those out. It's like the beginning of a roach infestation at this rate

 

[Armorchompy]

I mentioned that approach in the OP, so I'm certainly okay with it, but at the moment it looks like there is stronger support for a freeze. Perhaps we could do a combination of both? Freeze for a shorter period like 6 months, and then open it back up to more established users?

I think we should see if people shift their agreement to Witch's option.

 

[Deagonx]

6 months is way too short of a punishment, all that would do is just give those certain supporters more time to start making even more socks to wait those out. It's like the beginning of a roach infestation at this rate

I agree. The year freeze is the best solution in my opinion.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

A year freeze is an extreme action, however I do think we're coming to a point where extremes must be taken. Vetting users requires much more time and resources than simply making a rule against the verse for a year. It will hasten how quickly we deal with sockpuppets, but we will still have to proceed through that rigamarole on a regular basis. As much as I would like to side with Arnold's plea (I am profoundly against the notion of punishing the group to deal with the individual), I think that a freeze is the better option in actually dealing with the parasite at work.

I think putting the verse on probation is better than setting up bouncers for its threads. I agree with a freeze.

 

[Flashlight237]

Tokyo Revengers is about the last thing I would imagine having a toxic fanbase considering nobody outside this wiki talked about or even bothered with it from what I've witnessed. Usually that honor went to stuff like Undertale, Steven Universe, Friday Night Funkin, whatever. Gosh! Even Grojband had a more active fanbase than Tokyo Revengers! But I guess here we are.

I'll go along with the freeze, if only because everyone else did so.

 

[First_Witch]

If I may speak one final time on the matter. It is true that a blanket freeze would, objectivly speaking, be less work than to compromise on allowing proven members only to continue working on TR, but I personally think the work it saves dosnt fully outweight the potential healing trusted members could bring to the verse in the same time. A year is a long time after all.

Monitoring wether or not a user is elligible for contributing to TR can be done with a single click; The profile preview everyone can access by clicking on the username of any user on any post they make gives you all the necessesary information after all, which means even normal users can help monitor TR threads that way.

1. See new TR thread
2. Check OP/user who posts something, they arent elligible.
3. Report to Staff member, member copypastes heads-up notice and closes thread.
4. Warning once for repeat behavior, ban for second repeat.

In fact, now that I think about it, enforcing the freeze isnt a blanked "kick feet up" solution either. You would still have to close every thread that might crop up, still warn every account that does so and still have to deal with "new users" who "find those rules draconian and clearly targeted towards the TR fanbase and they would not know why" that argue with you over the unfairness, which means you will still have to deal with them in the RvR thread. The additional action necessary to allow TR to be worked on by reasonable people isnt that much more.