Tokyo Revengers: Discussion Rule

[ImmortalDread]

Introduction​

It is ironic that the thread has been requested by staff members and others to be first concluded and then creation of this thread, as it is intended to be brief and not exceed two pages. Nonetheless, it has now reached a length of five pages, and I must express that the issue is not related to the inanimateness of the verse, but rather to the members of the community who are excessively demanding and constantly seeking attention, thereby overwhelming others. And they are also being ambitious, counterintuitive, combative, relentlessly persistently bothering the calculation group members until they are completely frustrated, time-consuming, and hard-to-please, making the communication near impossible and absolute ineffective.

This results in the discussion always exceeding 5 pages and never concluding properly.

Therefore, it is imperative to establish a discussion rule and lock all profiles of the verse to prevent vandalism, which has been occurring in a quiet manner in recent months.

Discussion Rule​

Do not create threads attempting to upgrade Tokyo Revengers characters to higher level than supersonic. It has been discussed here, here, here, here, here, here and many more with over 30 pages of back and forth discussion. This prohibition stems from the extraordinary nature of these claims, and the CGMs have intervened multiple times to reject and debunk such feats. Alone, these discussions have led to increased harassment, toxicity, and drama, to the point where the RvR thread is being spammed with these discussions. Unless new evidence emerges indicating otherwise, refrain from trying to upgrade the verse based on these scenes.

• Avoid creating calculation blogs on these feats without substantial evidence from an official source. It is strongly preferred that discussions be grounded in verified information. Without concrete support from authoritative sources, these calculations are likely to be rejected.

Note: The thread has been requested by many staff members, including @Antvasima.

OP's Note: For the verse community, this is a strict staff thread.
It would be very much appreciated when only staff members discuss this. Any derailment will be immediately deleted without notice.

For newcomers: All discussion rules are placed here.

 

[Fikriskps]

I recommended if u put it on the verse page so whoever visit it, thay know a rule for the verse.

 

[Antvasima]

I recommended if u put it on the verse page so whoever visit it, thay know a rule for the verse.

This is probably a good idea, yes. Thank you for helping out.

 

[Antvasima]

@Executor_N0 @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Mr._Bambu @Therefir @DMUA @Damage3245 @TheRustyOne @DemonGodMitchAubin @Jasonsith @Wokistan @Armorchompy @Migue79 @Psychomaster35 @CloverDragon03 @KLOL506 @M3X_2.0 @Dark-Carioca @AbaddonTheDisappointment @Aguywhodoesthings @Agnaa @Dalesean027 @Flashlight237

Do any of you have any suggestions here?

 

[Armorchompy]

I think it'd be better to ban the specific feats or reasoning that have been repeatedly rejected, rather than any rating above Supersonic. If a legit calc can be made to reach those ratings, then there's no problem with it

 

[ImmortalDread]

You have a point. I will rephrase it to be specific to the feats mentioned earlier. Obviously, if the anime or series introduces new feats that place characters above supersonic speeds legitimately, the discussion rule should not affect it.

@Dalesean027 Mind pointing out which scenes are being effected here? So I can reformulate the draft.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Tokyo Revengers should be deleted from the wiki.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Posts of this nature are strongly discouraged and could be seen as very provocative. Kindly refrain from making such posts, as I aim to keep my thread drama-free.

Thank you.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Stop acting like a robot.

My comment was serious. Tokyo Revengers is far from a verse where powerscaling can be consistently applied and it has caused too much trouble.

And aside from the fact that this discussion rule is completely unreasonable. You don’t make a rule to hard cap a verse at one Tier, you simply stop the feat(s) in question from being used.

 

[Testarossa002]

I think it'd be better to ban the specific feats or reasoning that have been repeatedly rejected, rather than any rating above Supersonic. If a legit calc can be made to reach those ratings, then there's no problem with it

That'll just be the bullet dodging feat.

There are other supersonic calcs but only this one has been discussed extensively on multiple threads.

 

[ImmortalDread]

My comment was serious. Tokyo Revengers is far from a verse where powerscaling can be consistently applied and it has caused too much trouble.

If it is serious, request the deletion somewhere else, and don't derail other people's threads. If you continue to comment on this topic, you will be reported.

 

[M3X_2.0]

If it is serious, request the deletion somewhere else, and don't derail other people's threads. If you keep commenting on this topic in my thread, you will be reported.

I’m not derailing, this is a valid topic to be discussed here. The reason for the discussion rule is the lack of coordination and direction of the verse, while also getting toxic and sometimes violent, something that would not happen if the verse - that does not belong to the powerscaling realm - wasn’t on the wiki.

Feel free to report me though.

 

[Qawsedf234]

And aside from the fact that this discussion rule is completely unreasonable. You don’t make a rule to hard cap a verse at one Tier, you simply stop the feat(s) in question from being used.

That's incorrect from my view:

We cap Avatar character speed

Do not attempt to downgrade the characters' speeds based on the claim that firebent lightning doesn't move as fast as natural lightning, as overwhelming evidence indicates the two are comparable

Doom isn't allowed to not be Low 1-C

Do not attempt to downgrade Davoth from Low 1-C based on the argument that regaining his body didn't restore his power. Multiple discussion threads have repeatedly rejected this argument, as the evidence makes clear that it did; Davoth explicitly declared that he would destroy the reality he created, the Father stated he would regain his faculties alongside his body, and Samur Maykr received a buff that allowed him to survive against Doomguy from absorbing the Father's essence.

Nasuverse isn't allowed to be downgraded from Tier 1

Do not attempt to downgrade the tier 1 ratings of Nasuverse characters. Its cosmology, consistency, and ratings have been debated heavily over the years, and attempts at downgrades have frequently been rejected before (Examples include: this, this and this. Threads that compile evidence for the tiers can be seen here and here). Debates over this have grown tiring, and proven to be a waste of time for all parties involved.

Saying that "You can't upgrade/downgrade a verse to X because Y" has a history of existing in the rule set.

 

[Agnaa]

Since Dread asked me to comment, I don't believe that M3X's comments are derailing. They're suggesting an alternate solution to the issue at hand, other than creating a discussion rule.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Saying that "You can't upgrade a verse to X because Y" has a history of existing in the rule set.

Different cases. These are the only feats for upgrading these verses, they were discussed to death already.

TR is an ongoing manga that occasionally drop some weird feats despite not being focused on powerscaling. It’s what Armor said, if you hard cap the verse at below Supersonic, what will you do when the verse drops legit supersonic feats.

 

[Qawsedf234]

TR is an ongoing manga that occasionally drop some weird feats despite not being focused on powerscaling. It’s what Armor said, if you hard cap the verse at below Supersonic, what will you do when the verse drops legit supersonic feats.

If a rule is needed we could do the old OPM discussion rule, and just say the verse should remain as is until new evidence drops.

 

[Antvasima]

If the Tokyo Revengers manga has not been concluded yet, maybe we can just make our new scaling rules be relevant up to a certain chapter?

 

[Antvasima]

If a rule is needed we could do the old OPM discussion rule, and just say the verse should remain as is until new evidence drops.

Yes, agreed.

 

[ImmortalDread]

This is derailing. In my whole discussion rule, I never prevented new feats that give higher rating to not being scaled or used. I specifically stated this:

Without concrete support from authoritative sources, it will be likely rejected

Without substantial and valid support from the anime interpretations of these feats or official statements from the author, any attempts to propose such speed tiers are strictly not allowed.

Sure, I am open to new rewording.

If a rule is needed we could do the old OPM discussion rule, and just say the verse should remain as is until new evidence drops.

This is literally what I am suggesting.

 

[M3X_2.0]

This is same as nothing to be honest. You can just make a rule to ban the feats and not the rating and it would make much more sense.

Also, the feats Dread linked in the OP are already banned because a thread DMUA made a while ago (we dont calc feats where a character dodged another’s attack at close range anymore).

 

[Antvasima]

Which feats should we include in the rule text then? Haven't the supporters already thoroughly combed through the currently available chapters for any potential upgrade-inducing feats at this point, and had their calculations for them evaluated?

 

[M3X_2.0]

Also, the feats Dread linked in the OP are already banned because a thread DMUA made a while ago (we dont calc feats where a character dodged another’s attack at close range anymore).

Please read what’s being said here. The feats aren’t even allowed anymore by a calculation rule. Most of them at least.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Which feats should we include in the rule text then? Haven't the supporters already thoroughly combed through the currently available chapters for any potential upgrade-inducing feats at this point, and had their calculations for them evaluated?

You have a point. I will rephrase it to be specific to the feats mentioned earlier. Obviously, if the anime or series introduces new feats that place characters above supersonic speeds legitimately, the discussion rule should not affect it.

@Dalesean027 Mind pointing out which scenes are being effected here? So I can reformulate the draft.

I have asked him for further assistance.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for helping out.

 

[Qawsedf234]

This is literally what I am suggesting.

Not entirely. There's still some ongoing spin off material that should be included as well. Also:

Without substantial and valid support from the anime interpretations of these feats or official statements from the author, any attempts to propose such speed tiers are strictly not allowed.

I would just go with "With out new evidence suggesting otherwise, do not attempt to upgrade the verse based on these showings" or something along those lines.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Alright. Edited

 

[M3X_2.0]

@Antvasima I’d like you stop purposefully ignoring my comments and start to actually pay attention at what I’m saying, because it’s important.

On this thread we discussed that feats where characters dodges attacks from other characters at close range shouldn’t be used, and that’s exactly how most of Tokyo Revengers feats are. They get Supersonic from these exact same feats. These kind of feats are BANNED already, they aren’t allowed to be used.

The rule from the calculations page goes as this:

“Refrain from calculating feats based on dodging attacks from other characters at extreme proximity, as this is primarily a trope used to exaggerate a narrow miss rather than a literal representation of overwhelming speed. Taking it at face value is often inconsistent with the battle in which the feat occurs, where the opponents are presented as equals, but the calculation results in them being considered several times faster. This should only be used when the character in question is greatly superior to the one who's attack he is evading and the speed of the attack is concretely stated, such as being able to surpass the speed of sound, or light, or uses a basis in the Real World such as the speed of an athlete's punch. If the two fighters are equal, you should simply scale them to the stated speed of the attack, or off of other feats they perform.”

The other bullet-timing feats should be fine to use. Just because the verse lacks coordination and direction from its supporters, doesn’t mean the feats should be discarded as there is solid arguments for the rating, although I still think the verse should be completely deleted.

TL;DR: We already have a rule to ban most of these feats and creating a rule for the same result is pointless. And just because they can’t behave doesn’t mean the feats are invalid. They just need better guidance.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. So would you or somebody else here be willing to write a new rule text for Tokyo Revengers based on our preexisting rule and the other feats that have already been extensively evaluated then?

Also, I am not purposefully ignoring your comments. As I said above, I just find it unlikely that all of the most potentially relevant feats for the verse haven't already been found and calculated by its more zealous fans, given the sheer amount of such blogs that have been posted in our wiki rather recently.

 

[M3X_2.0]

There shouldn’t be a rule. That’s the point. The feats that they used to scale the verse aren’t valid anymore.

The ones that still are valid are being held back by their behavior and being unable to talk as human beings and keeping things short.

We shouldn’t be more stricter than we already are, we should help our users, guide them. Creating a rule is not solving the problem, is ignoring it.

 

[Antvasima]

But they have been spamming and pestered our staff members to the point that all of the feats for Tokyo Revengers have likely been over-evaluated, and most staff members seem to consider the verse as cancer. We should probably let it be for quite a while unless any new feats that are allowed by the rules you mentioned can be found, as is our standard praxis for overdone arguments.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Despite its invalidities, there are still countless discussion about these “invalid calculations”, at some point, you need to set boundaries.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, agreed.

 

[M3X_2.0]

They do this because we have no guidelines to follow when creating CRTs. Threads like the ones Dread linked in the OP are like that because no other staff gives a shot to it, they don’t help these users.

There was a Jujutsu Kaisen AP Thread that went exactly like most TR threads, and when I talked to them, helped them to flesh out their ideas, the thread was closed days after.

I brought this up on the staff PM a while back and no one besides you and Agnaa gave their opinions. It’s our fault that threads end up like this.

We should help them, create guidelines, not strict rules that makes no sense and doesn’t help at all.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

What about stopping any conversation related to feats of the verse until significant new content is dropped that would warrant further conversation? Every single feat up to now has been calced a dozen different ways so I doubt there is anything unexplored in this particular verse.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Despite its invalidities, there are still countless discussion about these “invalid calculations”, at some point, you need to set boundaries.

Then next time you see these threads, make sure to let a thread moderator know about it so they can close the thread.

There is a rule to deal with these threads, our staff just did that know. Make sure to reinforce the rule next time.

 

[ImmortalDread]

What about stopping any conversation related to feats of the verse until significant new content is dropped that would warrant further conversation? Every single feat up to now has been calced a dozen different ways so I doubt there is anything unexplored in this particular verse.

This is literally I am suggesting, but for now, it is vague since I am waiting for @Dalesean027 to review them.

 

[M3X_2.0]

What about stopping any conversation related to feats of the verse until significant new content is dropped that would warrant further conversation? Every single feat up to now has been calced a dozen different ways so I doubt there is anything unexplored in this particular verse.

That’s the point man, will we invalidate all the feats because the supporters can’t behave properly?

Give these guys the help they need, from thread moderators and calc group members and see how the threads will go smoothly.

Instead of helping these guys, we’re telling them their verse should get more feats first, something that may or may not happen. They have some feats to scale the characters, guide them so the thread won’t get out of control and the changes can be applied.

 

[ImmortalDread]

That’s the point man, will we invalidate all the feats because the supporters can’t behave properly?

This is not what I am suggesting.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Doesn’t matter. I’m suggesting different actions instead of creating a rule.

 

[Dalesean027]

That'll just be the bullet dodging feat.

There are other supersonic calcs but only this one has been discussed extensively on multiple threads.

Untrue unfortunately the feat with Mikey fighting all those goons, draken, takemichi, angry, chifuyu and some other feats have all been brought up ans the main topics in at least 2 to 3 threads bare minimum for each. And M3X there's quite a few of these that aren't even valid by site standards and they still moved forward with them anyways despite what staff has said.

If a rule is needed we could do the old OPM discussion rule, and just say the verse should remain as is until new evidence drops.

That's what I was proposing when I originally said we should make a discussion rule as none of the current calcs they're doing nor have all of their reject arguments across several threads that reach usually like 5 to 10 pages long, none of those support the notion that these characters are bullet timers so I'd say unless in the future the anime brings new evidence that supports the characters being at said speeds then we should keep the cap at supersonic.

On the topic of what M3X said I myself have proposed the verse's deletion a couple of months ago and I mean here we are again now in another staff thread creating a discussion rule cause the same problems and harassment are still heavily prevalent. So I don't think its unfounded for him to suggest such a thing at all considering it truly has been one of the worst verses to deal with on the wiki consistently with a large number of our staff blacklisting it from verses they even want to deal with