DC Comics - Mandrakk Rewrite

[Xearsay]

Proving my point. You both keep commenting cause you want the last comment. Even when you don’t have anything relevant to say. So stop bantering, as it’s not relevant to the thread.

 

[Deagonx]

If you say so.

 

[Antvasima]

I was told that the arguments here have been rejected, and I should close this thread. Is it fine if I do so?

 

[Deagonx]

I was told that the arguments here have been rejected, and I should close this thread. Is it fine if I do so?

I believe so, yes. All the people who have commented have disagreed, including myself, Alonik, Sen, Vondoom, King, and Swerzye.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will lock this thread then.

Thank you to everybody who helped out here.

 

[Antvasima]

Xearsay just told me that he does not want to scale Mandrakk to The Overvoid.

"I’m assuming you’re talking about the Mandrakk scaling to high 1-A thing? Well that wasn’t an actual proposal in my thread. The only proposals I had in my thread were to rewrite Mandrakks summary description, his AP description(not it’s tier), and to add some abilities."

https://vsbattles.com/members/antvasima.17/#profile-post-comment-75076

What do you think about this, @Deagonx and @Alonik ?

 

[Deagonx]

What do you think about this, @Deagonx and @Alonik ?

He didn't make 1-A part of his initial proposal, but it became clear throughout the thread that his rewrite was intended to highlight characteristics that he feels can he used to justify it later.

I disagree with the rewrite, he essentially wants to replace the parts of the profile that refer to Mandrakks origin as half of the probe that Monitor created and replace it with the phrase "part of Monitor that felt corrupted" because that's how Superman described him. Because he thinks this justifies scaling Mandrakk to the Overvoid.

Regarding the ability additions, they've been objected to by several users:

As swerzye pointed out, Nil is not a void and Mandrakk shouldn't get Void Manipulation for it.

Reality Manipulation doesn't make sense as he wasn't the one accomplishing the feat and it's not clear if it's a Monitor specific power or just a basic function of the multiverse (existence via belief)

And plot manip makes no sense here as Mandrakk never portrayed the ability to alter reality like a story's script. Plot manip doesn't mean "interacted with meta stuff" it essentially denotes author like control of reality, which none of his feats show.

All of this was discussed in the thread, it wasn't primarily disagreed with because of the extreme upgrade he was clearly setting the stage for, though that of course added to it.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you, Deagonx. I think that all of your statements above make good sense.

 

[Xearsay]

So just to clear things up. Whether Mandrakk would scale to the Overvoid or not, is not a proposal in this thread. So there’s no reason to keep bringing this up as a reason to deny the summary rewrite proposal presented.

Now onto the ability additions.

Void manipulation: I’m fine with the denial of void manipulation. However I do still find it odd that Nil is described as a void on multiple occasions but contains space and time.

Plot manipulation: Deagonx was the only one who expressed disagreement with plot manipulation. However I think his argument was wrong. As there is definitely evidence for plot manipulation.

1) The Monitors were said to be encircled with narratives which formed around them and Mandrakk was capable of one shotting.

2) The entire flaw the Monitors manipulate is shown from their perspective to be a structure containing stories.

3) It’s very much implied that Mandrakk was manipulating the Hyperstory. As CAS only becomes aware of the Hyperstory trying to destroy him once Mandrakk begins trying to destroy him.

Subjevtive reality: Its directly stated that the Monitors were believing Mandrakk into existence, and there’s nothing that mentions it being a byproduct of the Multiverse. However if Deagonx has evidence that Mandrakk was being believed into existence by the Multiverse and not the Monitors he can feel free to post it.

 

[Alonik]

What do you think about this, @Deagonx and @Alonik ?

I'd rather you or someone reasonable see his proposal, mine and @Deagonx directly counter-arguing what he wrote, for summary;

What he proposed:

Old first sentence of summary: “Mandrakk is the corrupted version of half of the original extension of Monitor-Mind the Overvoid that examined the Multiverse before splitting and leaving behind the Thought Robot.”

New first sentence: Mandrakk is the part of Monitor Mind the Overvoid that felt contaminated by the Multiverse.(Final Crisis Superman Beyond #2)

Remove the first sentence and add this in its place. As Mandrakk is not a corrupted half of Dax Novu, Mandrakk is Dax Novu.

Original attack potency: “(Is half of the extension of Monitor-Mind The Overvoid that examined the DC Multiverse. Exists in the archetypal Monitor world of Nil as the "bad" side of every conceptual dichotomy. Fought the Thought Robot and wounded it beyond repair. Was able to one-shot Zillo Valla, a normal Monitor.)”

New attack potency: (Is the part of Monitor Mind the Overvoid that felt contaminated by the Multiverse.(Final Crisis Superman Beyond #2) Mandrakk was described as an absolute threat(Final Crisis Superman Beyond #2), and a hatred that threatens all existence.(Final Crisis Superman Beyond #1))

Speed: Omnipresent(Is the part of the Overvoid that felt contaminated by the Multiverse.)

There are also other instances of this premise being repeated. The main counter-argument here is against Mandrakk being the contaminated part of the Overvoid, because the Thought Robot says he is the contaminated part of the Monitor.

However as I said before @Xearsay was just doing mental exercises and separating the context of the sentences to lend credence to his argument with extensive ad verbosium, in the very scan he presents about this, it is said that the Monitor in question that he is the contaminated part of, is actually Dax Novu.

• You're the part of the monitor that felt contaminated by the Multiverse! Isn't it obvious? You were Dax Novu! You were the best of them!

And I even brought up other things like Multiversity claiming that Dax Novu was separated into two beings after being affected by the flaw (the bleed/multiverse).

• For study, Monitor-Mind brings forth science monitor DAX NOVU. Who selflessly enters the Flaw and is CONTAMINATED-- AND SPLIT IN TWO.
• What had been universe becomes multiverse. Divided, deranged, Novu catalogues and numbers each variation on a basic theme, each alternative twist. But Novu looks too close, too deep. Infect by the activity and process, by the endless play of matter and narrative-- Novu is blinded, corrupted by the Flaw's lightning dazzle.

With that said, there is also the secret files of the Final Crisis where it says that Dax Novu was reborn as the Dark Monitor Mandrakk:

• Greatest of all Monitors was Dax Novu, the "Radiant One," the Explorer and Scientist. But it was also Novu who returned from the Multiverse infected by the forms and by the stories of the creatures he had encountered inside. Shunned by the other Monitors for bringing contamination, his won story twisted inexorably towards the darkness. Misunderstood, shunned, feared and finally neglected, Novu became the ultimate the other Monitors feared. Reborn as Mandrakk the Dark Monitor, Novu is the absolute personification of vampiric hunger on a cosmic, existential scale.

The problem we have here is that constantly Overvoid is called "Monitor", not with prefixes as here being called "Prime Monitor", howbeit even so the comics doesn't seem to be clear themselves with that, likewise in Multiversity where Kent Nelson from Earth 20 calls "Novu" as the "Proto-Monitor", in the final crisis itself is depicted the Monitor (Overvoid) and Dax Novu (Concept created by the Overvoid) as nearly the same, to study and contain the flaw in the following sentence;

• The was the monitor (overvoid) only! And Then! Then is a Flaw found at the heart of monitor perfection (Overvoid)! Monitor (Overvoid) makes a concept to contain the flaw! Monitor (Dax Novu) examination reveals within terrifying unforeseen complexities and contradictions!

I purposely added the parentheses to differentiate the moment the comic is talking about two different beings because in Multiversity as stated before "For study, Monitor-Mind brings forth science monitor DAX NOVU". And in the following two pages of the book of limbo is said this:

1. Monitor (Overvoid) extends a probe (Dax Novu) designed to blend with its surrounding, the probe secures contact!.. With Something monitor has never before encountered! Inside the Flaw-- A Chaotic Froth of Events!
2. ...Monitor has zero defenses! Blinded, split in two, the probe (Dax Novu) withdraws! The flaw is sealed, scabbed over. With divine metals! Made safe. Until all that remains of that ill-fated first contact is a vast, uncanny form! The Mystery of the silent sentinel haunts monitor, infects the immaculate intelligence with questions, speculations pestilential crawling narratives.

With the above, it is clear that the "probe" (Dax Novu) was indeed split into two new beings, one part of him being reborn as Mandrakk the Dark Monitor, and the other part left as a mystery being the sentinel we know as "The Thought Robot" a.k.a. Cosmic Armor. Xearsay is just taking the opportunity to do a lot of mental exercises when it comes to argumentation because both Dax Novu and Overvoid are called at some times by the monitors in Countdown as "Prime Monitor", and while Superman is reading the book of the limbo as "Beginning as the first", while Dax Novu is often called as the first monitor and the Radiant One.


And for the finals as i've already said here breaks down any scaling of Dax Novu as the "probe" to the Overvoid, because the "probe" was affected by the Flaw, and according to Multiversity the Flaw is everything that the Overvoid is not:

• A Flaw that "is" everything perfection is not.

And this is consistent with what Morrison said in his interview

Morrison: Yeah. Again, on the very edge of the art and the edge of the mind of God there are these two big concepts fighting – Superman and Mandrakk, Predation and Protection, Greed and Preservation, Ugly and Beautiful, Youth and Age, Good and Evil, Black and White, Is and Isn't and all the others. Beyond that crumbling ledge in Monitor-World, those concepts don't exist and it's all non-dual Monitor mind, or God, or Kirby's Source, in which all contradictions are resolved into unity. It's funny, the more I talk about it, the more I'm getting into it! https://www.ign.com/articles/2009/02/03/inside-the-mind-of-grant-morrison

Which means that not even the "probe" can be part of the Overvoid anymore from the moment it enters the Flaw and is consumed (contamined) by the stories, and that means that even Mandrakk cannot be scaled to Xearsay's proposal for the simple fact that Mandrakk is everything that the Overvoid is not, he is a dual being, while the Overvoid is not.

 

[Deagonx]

Whether Mandrakk would scale to the Overvoid or not, is not a proposal in this thread. So there’s no reason to keep bringing this up as a reason to deny the summary rewrite proposal presented.

Regardless of whether it's a proposal within this thread, it is important to point out that your motivations for certain descriptions are due to the fact that you believe that they justify scaling him to the Overvoid, and that warrants consideration.

Plot manipulation: Deagonx was the only one who expressed disagreement with plot manipulation. However I think his argument was wrong. As there is definitely evidence for plot manipulation.

1) The Monitors were said to be encircled with narratives which formed around them and Mandrakk was capable of one shotting.

2) The entire flaw the Monitors manipulate is shown from their perspective to be a structure containing stories.

3) It’s very much implied that Mandrakk was manipulating the Hyperstory. As CAS only becomes aware of the Hyperstory trying to destroy him once Mandrakk begins trying to destroy him.

You haven't addressed my argument. The problem is that none of these feats demonstrate plot manipulation. You seem to have a notion about what the ability means which is much broader and vaguer than the actual ability profile. Plot manipulation represents author-like reality manipulation where the character can literally change reality as though they are writing/re-writing a story. The fact that Mandrakk can kill Monitors who have "narratives form around them" doesn't represent plot manipulation. The notion that the flaw contains stories doesn't mean that the Monitors have author-like control of those stories (even if they had very powerful reality manipulation -- which they haven't demonstrated -- that would not mean it's plot manipulation).

The details surrounding the "hyperstory" are extremely vague, and using it to assign plot manip to Mandrakk is based on very big assumptions that not everyone shares. I don't think Mandrakk was, or controlled, Hyperstory. I think Mandrakk was within Hyperstory just as much as CAS was, as the text later says "the inexorable logic of a living story drives us towards it's conclusion." The story doesn't say one way or the other, but even in the most generous interpretation, this still wouldn't grant Plot Manipulation, because Mandrakk didn't have author-like control of the events. There's nothing indicating that he did.

For reference, these are some of the "possible uses" for Plot Manipulation in the wiki page for it:

• Users may be able to determine how things will proceed by writing into the plot what is going to happen (emulating fate, causality and/or probability manipulation).
• Users may be able transform things into other things by altering their description in the plot.
• Users may be able to retroactively change the past, by changing what is recorded about the past in the plot.
• Users may be able to control the action and/or thoughts of others by writing what they do or think into the plot.
• Users may create things by writing that they are present into the plot.
• Users may erase things by erasing any mention of them from the plot.

There is no indication that Mandrakk can do any of those things. Once again, this is distinct from general reality manipulation because it has to explicitly take the form of the character in question accomplishing it by changing the actual plot of the story, which the character in question recognizes as fictional. Mandrakk can't do this. If it said something like "Mandrakk is altering the plot of the Hyperstory by writing that he will be the victor of the battle, and I can't stop him!" Or something like that, we'd have something to talk about, but he doesn't. The comic doesn't state anything like this, and such an interpretation is contradicted by the fact that the battle didn't go the way Mandrakk wanted it to. And no, he won't be granted Plot Manipulation due to a behind-the-scenes interpretation that the "Hyperstory" was being affected by Mandrakk since it was never stated to be the case.

Subjevtive reality: Its directly stated that the Monitors were believing Mandrakk into existence, and there’s nothing that mentions it being a byproduct of the Multiverse. However if Deagonx has evidence that Mandrakk was being believed into existence by the Multiverse and not the Monitors he can feel free to post it.

You have completely misunderstood my argument, again. I am pointing out the fact that believing things into existence is not a monitor specific power, but a basic function of DC's reality (the collective unconscious, dream of a thousand cats, et cetera.) If it isn't Monitor specific, then either we need to put it on every single DC character's profile, or none. I think it makes far more sense to not apply it to any profile since it's just how the DC universe works.

 

[Xearsay]

Just to address Aloniks points.

Alonik is essentially trying to assert that “Monitor” singularly within the Final Crisis scans is used to refer to Dax Novu. Which is wrong as “Monitor” was a name specifically given to the white space(Overvoid) in Final Crisis.

Furthermore, Alonik is also misrepresenting CAS’s statement. In the first scan he presented, CAS doesn’t state “you’re the part of the Monitor” he says “you’re the part of Monitor.” And the name Monitor singularly has been used consistently throughout Final Crisis to refer to the Overvoid. Alonik is adding “the” to the sentence to make it seem like CAS was referring to a specific one of the Monitors, which is not true.

I also find it odd that he’s using CAS’s statements to try and say Mandrakk is a part of Dax Novu when in the same scan, CAS tells Mandrakk “you were Dax Novu.” And we know CAS can’t be a part of Dax Novu either because he specifically says Mandrakk is Dax Novu.

The next argument is essentially that Dax Novu was split in two, which Alonik argued created Mandrakk. However it’s never said Dax Novu being split in two created two separate beings with Mandrakk being one of them. It’s specifically revealed in Final Crisis Superman Beyond and Final Crisis secret files that Mandrakk was something Dax Novu transformed into after being locked away.

And lastly, Aloniks final argument is that Dax Novu was contaminated by the Multiverse/flaw, and therefore Mandrakk cannot be a part of the Overvoid. However none of this invalidates CAS’s statements as Mandrakk/Dax Novu can still at one point have been a part of the Overvoid and then be separated from it.

 

[Xearsay]

Regardless of whether it's a proposal within this thread, it is important to point out that your motivations for certain descriptions are due to the fact that you believe that they justify scaling him to the Overvoid, and that warrants consideration.

And? So what? It’s not like that’s gonna change whether this current proposal is true or not.

The notion that the flaw contains stories doesn't mean that the Monitors have author-like control of those stories (even if they had very powerful reality manipulation -- which they haven't demonstrated -- that would not mean it's plot manipulation).

Except they do. The Monitors are literally feeding on the Multiverse which contains stories, and then turning into vampires who were desired to destroy it.

The story doesn't say one way or the other, but even in the most generous interpretation, this still wouldn't grant Plot Manipulation, because Mandrakk didn't have author-like control of the events. There's nothing indicating that he did.

Yes this would grant plot manipulation. Mandrakk is manipulating the narrative of the Monitor Sphere to try and destroy another being within said narrative. That’s the most basic way to get plot manip.

You have completely misunderstood my argument, again. I am pointing out the fact that believing things into existence is not a monitor specific power, but a basic function of DC's reality (the collective unconscious, dream of a thousand cats, et cetera.) If it isn't Monitor specific, then either we need to put it on every single DC character's profile, or none. I think it makes far more sense to not apply it to any profile since it's just how the DC universe works.

There’s nothing mentioning this was because of the collective unconscious, which is something I don’t think Morrison has even written about. If you have proof this was happening because of the collective unconscious, then post it, otherwise you’re just asserting headcanon.

 

[Deagonx]

Alonik is essentially trying to assert that “Monitor” singularly within the Final Crisis scans is used to refer to Dax Novu. Which is wrong as “Monitor” was a name specifically given to the white space(Overvoid) in Final Crisis.

No, he absolutely isn't. Why are you lying about what he said? He acknowledged Monitor was a name for the Overvoid explicitly.

in the final crisis itself is depicted the Monitor (Overvoid) and Dax Novu (Concept created by the Overvoid) as nearly the same, to study and contain the flaw in the following sentence;

• The was the monitor (overvoid) only! And Then! Then is a Flaw found at the heart of monitor perfection (Overvoid)! Monitor (Overvoid) makes a concept to contain the flaw! Monitor (Dax Novu) examination reveals within terrifying unforeseen complexities and contradictions!

I purposely added the parentheses to differentiate the moment the comic is talking about two different beings because in Multiversity as stated before "For study, Monitor-Mind brings forth science monitor DAX NOVU". And in the following two pages of the book of limbo is said this:

1. Monitor (Overvoid) extends a probe (Dax Novu) designed to blend with its surrounding, the probe secures contact!.. With Something monitor has never before encountered! Inside the Flaw-- A Chaotic Froth of Events!

You just blatantly misrepresented his points, again. Are you capable of having a discussion where you do not immediately strawman everyone's argument? A moment ago you pretended I was claiming that the multiverse itself believed Mandrakk into existence when that clearly wasn't what I meant at all.

The next argument is essentially that Dax Novu was split in two, which Alonik argued created Mandrakk. However it’s never said Dax Novu being split in two created two separate beings with Mandrakk being one of them. It’s specifically revealed in Final Crisis Superman Beyond and Final Crisis secret files that Mandrakk was something Dax Novu transformed into after being locked away.

The Secret Files description does not contradict the split. Dax splitting isn't an "argument." It's directly stated by the comic, and one of the fragments being Mandrakk is indicated by the context.

And lastly, Aloniks final argument is that Dax Novu was contaminated by the Multiverse/flaw, and therefore Mandrakk cannot be a part of the Overvoid. However none of this invalidates CAS’s statements as Mandrakk/Dax Novu can still at one point have been a part of the Overvoid and then be separated from it.

The fact that he was separated from it means he's no longer a part of the Overvoid. You ignored his entire argument. Overvoid is perfection, everything the flaw is not. If Mandrakk is contaminated by the flaw, definitionally he is no longer a part of "everything the flaw is not."

This is why the thread went nowhere. This isn't a debate. We can't even get you to respond in good faith to our arguments rather than strawman them or omit a core portion of the argument.

 

[Deagonx]

Except they do. They literally feeding on them and then turning into vampires who were desired to destroy Multiverse and it’s stories.

When did they portray the ability to rewrite the stories of the multiverse like authors?

Yes this would grant plot manipulation. If I’m manipulating a story to destroy to destroy another being within said story. That’s plot manip.

There's no evidence that he manipulated a story to destroy CAS. And you've missed my point. Again. If he had author-like control it wouldn't have been a near-even hotly contested battle that ultimately resulted in both of their defeats. You'd have to argue that Mandrakk wanted to be thrown off the edge of Nil rather than simply defeating CAS wholesale, which he'd have been able to write into the story if he had plot manipulation.

However, this hypothetical discussion is moot, since there's no evidence he was controlling or influencing Hyperstory.

Edited version:

Yes this would grant plot manipulation. Mandrakk is manipulating the narrative of the Monitor Sphere to try and destroy another being within said narrative. That’s the most basic way to get plot manip.

There's nothing in the comic which states that Hyperstory is "the narrative of the Monitor Sphere" and there's nothing stating that Mandrakk had any control over it. Again, your proposition lacks any evidence.

There’s nothing mentioning this was because of the collective unconscious(something I don’t think Morrison has even written about). If you have proof this was happening because of the collective unconscious, then post it, otherwise you’re just asserting headcanon.

I never said it was because of the collective unconscious. If you want to try responding to my actual argument, feel free. If not, then the objection stands. I'm not going to spend another month correcting strawman versions of my argument.

 

[Alonik]

This is why the thread went nowhere. This isn't a debate. We can't even get you to respond in good faith to our arguments rather than strawman them or omit a core portion of the argument.

Indeed, that's why i said for evaluation for both sides, if not we will be here in an endless discussion again

 

[Xearsay]

No, he absolutely isn't. Why are you lying about what he said? He acknowledged Monitor was a name for the Overvoid explicitly.

If he fully acknowledged it was a name for the Overvoid specifically then why is he trying to argue that “Monitor” within CAS’s statement “You’re the part of Monitor that felt contaminated by the Multiverse” is referring to Dax Novu?

It's directly stated by the comic, and one of the fragments being Mandrakk is indicated by the context.

Then post evidence that Dax Novu splitting created Mandrakk. This is what I’ve been asking both of you to do all thread and you both refused to do it.

The fact that he was separated from it means he's no longer a part of the Overvoid. You ignored his entire argument. Overvoid is perfection, everything the flaw is not. If Mandrakk is contaminated by the flaw, definitionally he is no longer a part of "everything the flaw is not."

“No longer” meaning he once was. Which is really all that I’m arguing.

 

[Alonik]

If he fully acknowledged it was a name for the Overvoid specifically then why is he trying to argue that “Monitor” within CAS’s statement “You’re the part of Monitor that felt contaminated by the Multiverse” is referring to Dax Novu?

Of course, if you show us any scan where it is said that Overvoid was contaminated, that would be fine, on the other hand I brought more than one scan saying that the "contaminated Monitor" was Dax Novu, and not Overvoid. But we know there is no such quote, because it is just mental juggling.

 

[Xearsay]

When did they portray the ability to rewrite the stories of the multiverse like authors?

You don’t need to just rewrite a story. Destroying the stories of the Multiverse is also plot manipulation.

There's no evidence that he manipulated a story to destroy CAS. And you've missed my point. Again. If he had author-like control it wouldn't have been a near-even hotly contested battle that ultimately resulted in both of their defeats. You'd have to argue that Mandrakk wanted to be thrown off the edge of Nil rather than simply defeating CAS wholesale, which he'd have been able to write into the story if he had plot manipulation.

Yes there is. CAS states he’s inside a self assembling Hyperstory trying to destroy him right when Mandrakk begins trying to destroy him.

That’s because CAS had some level of resistance to plot manipulation, allowing CAS to eventually overcome Mandrakk. However he was still wounded beyond repair from damage he suffered during the battle, which is why he died.

There's nothing in the comic which states that Hyperstory is "the narrative of the Monitor Sphere" and there's nothing stating that Mandrakk had any control over it. Again, your proposition lacks any evidence.

What else would you call a narrative that can govern what exists within a realm?

I never said it was because of the collective unconscious. If you want to try responding to my actual argument, feel free. If not, then the objection stands. I'm not going to spend another month correcting strawman versions of my argument.

You implied the power wasn’t specific to the Monitors and was instead byproduct of how DC’s reality functions.

Deagonx - “I am pointing out the fact that believing things into existence is not a monitor specific power, but a basic function of DC's reality (the collective unconscious, dream of a thousand cats, et cetera.)”

However you have no evidence for that being the case in this specific scenario. If you do post it.

 

[Deagonx]

If he fully acknowledged it was a name for the Overvoid specifically then why is he trying to argue that “Monitor” within CAS’s statement “You’re the part of Monitor that felt contaminated by the Multiverse” is referring to Dax Novu?

Gee, if only he explained that in the post! The fact remains that you just tried to pretend he didn't know or acknowledge that "Monitor" referred to the Overvoid despite explicitly saying it did three different times. This non-sequitur objection does not make that okay. Stop misrepresenting peoples arguments, actually read them, and respond to the premise rather than regurgitating an extremely watered-down version of what they said and saying "X doesn't mean Y," requiring them to explain ad nauseum that X wasn't their argument.

Then post evidence that Dax Novu splitting created Mandrakk. This is what I’ve been asking both of you to do all thread and you both refused to do it.

We did, your refusal to acknowledge the proof as proof does not constitute a failure on our part.

“No longer” meaning he once was. Which is really all that I’m arguing.

Dax was a probe that Monitor-Mind created, which was corrupted and split into Mandrakk. That's what the profile currently reflects, and it's perfectly adequate. We aren't going to give primacy to the phrase "part of Monitor that felt contaminated" over the rest of the details just because you want to use that description to wank Mandrakk to 1-A.

 

[Deagonx]

You don’t need to just rewrite a story. Destroying the stories of the Multiverse is also plot manipulation.

Not according to the wiki page on the ability, no it isn't. If you think the ability page should be altered, that's an entirely different discussion. But point blank, "destroying a story" doesn't constitute Plot Manipulation as described by the wiki ability page.

Yes there is. CAS states he’s inside a self assembling Hyperstory trying to destroy him right when Mandrakk begins trying to destroy him.

That doesn't mean Mandrakk is the hyperstory or is controlling it. Superman's internal dialogue contradicts the interpretation that Mandrakk = Hyperstory.

About the hyperstory, his internal dialogue says "I'm inside a self-assembling hyperstory, and it's trying its best to destroy me." Then he says "My purpose is to simply stop him."

Him =/= it. Mandrakk isn't the Hyperstory. More importantly, he says the hyperstory is trying to destroy him. The story itself is trying to destroy him. He never says that Mandrakk is using it to destroy him, he doesn't imply that the story is being controlled by someone else. He actually calls it "self-assembling." If it is assembling itself, then we have no reason to assign Mandrakk's influence.

Later, he says "the inexorable (unstoppable) logic of a living story drives us towards it's conclusion." Again, CAS and Mandrakk are contrasted against the story. The living story (which is possibly the Hyperstory) is driving both participants towards the conclusion.

There is plenty of room for an interpretation that is different from your theory about Mandrakk controlling hyperstory, and it's better supported by evidence that it isn't Mandrakk at all. We aren't going to give Mandrakk an ability addition based on assumptions.

That’s because CAS had some level of resistance to plot manipulation, allowing CAS to eventually overcome Mandrakk. However he was still wounded beyond repair from damage he suffered during the battle, which is why he died.

There's no indication that CAS had resistance to plot manipulation.

What else would you call a narrative that can govern what exists within a realm?

Where is hyperstory described as "a narrative that can govern what exists within" the Monitor Sphere?

You implied it was a basic function of DC’s reality due to dream of the thousand cats and the collective unconscious.

Those were examples of it being a function of DC's reality. Metron also theorized that the beliefs of Gods gave existence to the Source. There are numerous other examples in DC of this being the case. The main point is, this appears to be a part of DC's reality, not a unique ability of Monitors.

 

[Xearsay]

Of course, if you show us any scan where it is said that Overvoid was contaminated, that would be fine, on the other hand I brought more than one scan saying that the "contaminated Monitor" was Dax Novu, and not Overvoid. But we know there is no such quote, because it is just mental juggling.

Why would I need to show evidence of the Overvoid being contaminated? Dax Novu/Mandrakk is the one who was contaminated. Hence why he’s(Mandrakk) is the part of Monitor that felt contaminated.

 

[Alonik]

Why would I need to show evidence of the Overvoid being contaminated? Dax Novu/Mandrakk is the one who was contaminated. Hence why he’s(Mandrakk) is the part of Monitor that felt contaminated.

Thanks for acknowledging that Mandrakk is the contaminated part of the Monitor (Dax Novu).

 

[Alonik]

Inb4: Xearsay crying and derailing cuz i said "part of the" not "part of monitor"

 

[Deagonx]

Why would I need to show evidence of the Overvoid being contaminated? Dax Novu/Mandrakk is the one who was contaminated. Hence why he’s(Mandrakk) is the part of Monitor that felt contaminated.

If Dax was the one that was contaminated, and not the Overvoid, then you're agreeing that "part of Monitor that felt contaminated" regards Dax, not Overvoid.

 

[Xearsay]

Gee, if only he explained that in the post! The fact remains that you just tried to pretend he didn't know or acknowledge that "Monitor" referred to the Overvoid despite explicitly saying it did three different times.

I didn’t pretend. I’m simply implying that he’s contradicting himself.

We did, your refusal to acknowledge the proof as proof does not constitute a failure on our part.

Oh really? So point to me where you posted evidence that Mandrakk was a byproduct of Dax Novu being split in two.

Dax was a probe that Monitor-Mind created, which was corrupted and split into Mandrakk. That's what the profile currently reflects, and it's perfectly adequate. We aren't going to give primacy to the phrase "part of Monitor that felt contaminated" over the rest of the details just because you want to use that description to wank Mandrakk to 1-A.

Once again, if you have evidence that Mandrakk was a byproduct of Dax splitting then post it. This should be a simple task.

 

[Alonik]

Oh really? So point to me where you posted evidence that Mandrakk was a byproduct of Dax Novu being split in two.
Once again, if you have evidence that Mandrakk was a byproduct of Dax splitting then post it. This should be a simple task.

He doesn't need to, I already posted and he is using what I posted as part of what he agrees with.

To be blunt, this seems to be something @Xearsay has against @Deagonx rather than the argument itself, he is requiring Deagonx to just repost what I have already sent him explained, which won't change anything if Deagonx send the same thing.

 

[Xearsay]

Not according to the wiki page on the ability, no it isn't. If you think the ability page should be altered, that's an entirely different discussion. But point blank, "destroying a story" doesn't constitute Plot Manipulation as described by the wiki ability page.

If not destroying then feeding on a narrative would count as plot manipulation. As the Monitors were essentially doing both.

And since I know you like to use author statements, this is even backed up by Morrison’s statements.

Morrison - “Wonder Woman gets a ‘moment’ in Final Crisis #7 but by that time, Mandrakk has sucked all the life out of the story!”

That doesn't mean Mandrakk is the hyperstory or is controlling it. Superman's internal dialogue contradicts the interpretation that Mandrakk = Hyperstory.

About the hyperstory, his internal dialogue says "I'm inside a self-assembling hyperstory, and it's trying its best to destroy me." Then he says "My purpose is to simply stop him."

Him =/= it. Mandrakk isn't the Hyperstory. More importantly, he says the hyperstory is trying to destroy him. The story itself is trying to destroy him. He never says that Mandrakk is using it to destroy him, he doesn't imply that the story is being controlled by someone else. He actually calls it "self-assembling." If it is assembling itself, then we have no reason to assign Mandrakk's influence.

I didn’t argue Mandrakk was the Hyperstory. I argued Mandrakk was manipulating it. The hyperstory being self-assembling just means that it formed on its own. That doesn’t mean that it can’t be influenced or manipulated.

There's no indication that CAS had resistance to plot manipulation.

He was fighting in a story trying to destroy him and didn’t immediately die. That counts as resistance.

Where is hyperstory described as "a narrative that can govern what exists within" the Monitor Sphere?

I’m Final Crisis when CAS is shown to exist inside of this story that is trying to remove him. Implying the Hyperstory can remove things inside of it. Also you posted this.

"the inexorable (unstoppable) logic of a living story drives us towards it's conclusion."

Which further proves that the Hyperstory governs things inside of it.

The main point is, this appears to be a part of DC's reality, not a unique ability of Monitors.

Once again post evidence that what you’re saying is the case for this specific situation.

 

[Xearsay]

He doesn't need to, I already posted and he is using what I posted as part of what he agrees with.

To be blunt, this seems to be something @Xearsay has against @Deagonx rather than the argument itself, he is requiring Deagonx to just repost what I have already sent him explained, which won't change anything if Deagonx send the same thing.

You didn’t post anything that actually supports Mandrakk being a byproduct of Dax splitting either. You posted a scan talking about how Dax Novu is the part Monitor(Overvoid), that felt(Dax Novu felt) contaminated by the Multiverse.

 

[Alonik]

You didn’t post anything that actually supports Mandrakk being a byproduct of Dax splitting either. You posted a scan talking about how Dax Novu was the part of Monitor(Overvoid) that felt contaminated by the Multiverse. That’s it.

This is your headcanon, not what the scans says.

 

[Xearsay]

This is your headcanon, not what the scans says.

You think I’m using headcanon when you’re the one asserting that “Monitor” which was consistently used throughout Final Crisis to refer to the Overvoid, is now in this one instance all of sudden being used to refer to Dax Novu.

 

[Deagonx]

I didn’t pretend. I’m simply implying that he’s contradicting himself.

But that's not what you said. You blatantly misrepresented his post by implying that he simply overlooked that information, and painted his proposition in a way which implied he meant that Monitor always referred to Dax rather than a single time.

Alonik is essentially trying to assert that “Monitor” singularly within the Final Crisis scans is used to refer to Dax Novu. Which is wrong as “Monitor” was a name specifically given to the white space(Overvoid) in Final Crisis.

If you feel that his actual argument is flawed in some way, that should not require you lying about what he said.

Oh really? So point to me where you posted evidence that Mandrakk was a byproduct of Dax Novu being split in two.

It was already posted and discussed in this thread. I am not going to rehash the same argument for you to issue the same denial of evidence. The comic is clear on this, your denial of this fact is plainly motivated by your desire to wank Mandrakk.

 

[Deagonx]

If not destroying then feeding on a narrative would count as plot manipulation. As the Monitors were essentially doing both.

No, it wouldn't. Plot manipulation is authorship like manipulation of reality, by way of manipulating the plot. Feeding on a story isn't changing the details of reality like an author rewrites a story.

I didn’t argue Mandrakk was the Hyperstory. I argued Mandrakk was manipulating it. The hyperstory being self-assembling just means that it formed on its own. That doesn’t mean that it can’t be influenced or manipulated.

There's no evidence that he influenced or manipulated it. The fact that it could be true doesn't mean that it is. I am pointing out reasons why it likely isn't true, not reasons why it isn't possible. You need to do better than "my theory is still possible." You need actual evidence.

He was fighting in a story trying to destroy him and didn’t immediately die. That counts as resistance.

Resistance to what? There's no indication that what was going on was plot manipulation. Also, why would his death be immediate? It would make sense for it to be immediate if Mandrakk was actually controlling things, since Mandrakk doesn't benefit from a drawn out fight in any way, but that relies on assuming Mandrakk was in control, which there is no evidence of.

I’m Final Crisis when CAS is shown to exist inside of this story that is trying to remove him. Implying the Hyperstory can remove things inside of it. Also you posted this.

"the inexorable (unstoppable) logic of a living story drives us towards it's conclusion."

Which further proves that the Hyperstory governs things inside of it.

Nothing indicated that it was trying to "remove" CAS, and driving Mandrakk and CAS towards the conclusion of the story doesn't mean that it dictates what is "allowed to exist" within the Monitor Sphere, and there's no indication that Hyperstory encompasses the entire sphere.

Once again post evidence that what you’re saying is the case for this specific situation.

You're missing the point, again. You have given a theory for the explanation behind the events. I am providing a different theory. We cannot assign an ability based on one of multiple possible theories. I don't need to prove my theory, you need to prove yours, or prove that mine is impossible. The facts support both possibilities, and there's no reason to assume your theory is true by default, which means that no ability should be added based on your unproven theory.

By my assessment, my theory is much more likely than yours, and is better supported by the evidence, but both are speculative, and that's why neither is appropriate for an ability addition.

You posted a scan talking about how Dax Novu is the part Monitor(Overvoid), that felt(Dax Novu felt) contaminated by the Multiverse.

That wasn't Dax, it was Mandrakk.

 

[Deagonx]

This topic is once again doomed to go nowhere. These are the propositions that Xear is putting forward:

1) Rewriting certain parts of the profile to describe Mandrakk's foremost as "part of Monitor that felt contaminated by the multiverse" and remove references to him being the corrupted half of Monitor's probe.

2) Void manipulation due to Nil

3) Plot manipulation due to Hyperstory

4) Reality Manipulation due to the Monitors "believing him into existence."

These are the problems:

1) Xearsay's personal opinions about the phrase "part of Monitor that felt contaminated by Mandrakk" are directly objected to by myself, Alonik, Vondoom, and he is using it to later justify scaling to Overvoid which is rejected by several more people. Myself and Alonik hold that the evidence better supports the probe description that is currently in the profile and do not see a reason to change it.

2) The void manipulation claim has already been rebutted fully and withdrawn.

3) There's no evidence that Mandrakk controlled or influenced Hyperstory, the fact that Superman remarked that Hyperstory was trying to destroy him at the same time the battle with Mandrakk started doesn't prove that Mandrakk was responsible, and other evidence implies the opposite. Without clear and definitive evidence, there's no reason to assign plot manipulation to Mandrakk based on this speculative assumption.

4) Existence through belief occurs at all levels of DC's reality and there's no indication that it's a unique ability of the Monitors, and Mandrakk himself never accomplished it.

I don't see the need to go in circles in this thread in perpetuity, which is why it was closed initially. Xearsay is entitled to his private theories and headcanon, but without actual clear evidence establishing something it shouldn't ever be applied to a public VSBW profile. No one has commented to agree with anything he has said, and several users have disagreed with all of it, and several more with specific parts of it. This thread has stayed active purely as a function of Xear's personal pride and unwillingness to admit when he has been proven wrong, so I think it should be closed once again as there is no chance that the tide drastically shifts a month later. It's just going to be more stonewalling and circular arguing.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Deagonx and Alonik make good sense above. We should preferably close this thread again.

 

[Deagonx]

I think that Deagonx and Alonik make good sense above. We should preferably close this thread again.

I agree. I don't see this going anywhere.

 

[Alonik]

I agree. I don't see this going anywhere.

Same. However, as I suggested before, if we could ask someone to evaluate both sides, at least two or more people, it would be enough that then we would have the side that is wrong understanding that it is wrong.

 

[PrinceStories]

I've read the Arguments from both sides so I agree more with some of Deagonx's Arguments as some of Mandrakk's abilities don't meet the requirements

for Void Manipulation There is no indication here of Mandrakk manipulation the Emptiness itself and destroying≠Manipulation And obviously this context is Out of context

for Subjective reality, I am neutral, not taking sides with anyone

for Plot manipulation obviously This is so absurd

1. Mandrakk is indeed part of Overvoid and Monitor, but that alone will not make it get plot manipulation

2. The narrative from the Monitor itself is neutral first

3. Hyperstory has never been explained in more depth. What's more, Hyperstory itself doesn't have anything fundamental, according to the explanation Plot manipulation

"Plot Manipulation is the ability to control the plot that governs reality. Commonly found in metafictional stories, plot can be understood as a fundamental aspect of reality once one perceives that reality as fiction"


In this explanation, it is clear. To get plot manipulation, a character must change the basic plot/story in the story. What's more, there is no basic thing in the hyperstory in the hyperstory itself.

 

[Xearsay]

I think this should be evaluated by other staff.
As this is just getting ridiculous.

Both Alonik and Deagonx have refused to provide a scan that actually supports Mandrakk being created from Dax Novu splitting in two.

The only argument they have against it essentially boils down to trying to claim the name “Monitor” within the Final Crisis scan is referring to “Dax Novu” despite the name already being established as referring to the Overvoid and the very same scan saying Mandrakk is Dax Novu.

Your reasons for rejecting plot manipulation and plot manipulation resistance just boils down to promoting a possibly not type argument. Which makes no sense in the context of the story. The scans showcase Mandrakk trying to destroy CAS when CAS references that the Hyperstory is trying to destroy him. So instead of suggesting that there is some mysterious additional outside force trying to destroy CAS during his battle, it makes much more sense to conclude that it’s Mandrakk manipulating it.

And the argument against subjective reality has no evidence. Deagonx has refused to post a scan supporting that Mandrakk being believed into existence by the Monitors was because of some outside power of belief.

 

[Deagonx]

I think this should be evaluated by other staff.

Ant just evaluated it.

Both Alonik and Deagonx have refused to provide a scan that actually supports Mandrakk being created from Dax Novu splitting in two.

The only argument they have against it essentially boils down to trying to claim the name “Monitor” within the Final Crisis scan is referring to “Dax Novu” despite the name already being established as referring to the Overvoid and the very same scan saying Mandrakk is Dax Novu.

You're misrepresenting my argument, yet again. My argument was as follows:

That said, the evidence of Dax splitting into Mandrakk is obvious. He entered the multiverse and was split in two. There are two options, either A) One of these two fragments is Mandrakk, or B) The two fragments were later reunited, without any mention of it in the comic, and this whole-again Dax became Mandrakk in a manner unrelated to the split, despite the fact that his origin story across two different comics explicitly emphasizes the splitting.

Given the repeated emphasis on the fact that Dax Novu/the Probe split in two it is obvious that Mandrakk is the result of that, which means he is one of the fragments. There's no evidence the fragments were reunited at some later point.

Later, when you attempted to insist that Dax never split into fragments, but that somehow "split" was a metaphor for madness (which is pure nonsense, but I've been extremely generous to even the most outrageous suggestions from you for the sake of charity), I argued against it as so:

Because "also" dictates a shared quality. If Dax was "also" split in two, then this is not the first/only "splitting in two." Contextually, this must refer to the first schism. e.g. (A) "Superman is from the planet Krypton. Supergirl is also a Kryptonian." The only other way to read "also" would be a list like (B) "Clark Kent is a report, he is also a superhero."

Using a (B) reading is impossible here for multiple reasons. First, that meaning of also was already captured by the original text which said "and split in two." The fact that they changed it to also, and removed the "and" means that this is not a list of events being conjoined by "also." Further, the fact that they put ALSO in all capitals means that it is a particularly important part of the sentence.

QED: The updated version makes it clear that Dax Novu's schism is the same in quality as the first schism.

And yet, here we are, with you completely lying about my argument, and pretending I never said any of these things, never showed this evidence, and portraying my argument as something that it isn't, because you're incapable of engaging in good faith with an argument.

Your reasons for rejecting plot manipulation and plot manipulation resistance just boils down to promoting a possibly not type argument. Which makes no sense in the context of the story. Why would there be a Hyperstory that starts trying to destroy CAS the moment Mandrakks begins fighting him but isn’t being manipulated by Mandrakk? There isn’t some mysterious other opponent trying to destroy CAS. It’s only Mandrakk.

You're taking your theory as the default, again, and pretending it's my job to prove it definitively impossible. Rather, your argument is simply promoting a "possibly type argument." I reject your assessment of the evidence, why would we interpret Mandrakk as controlling the Hyperstory when the end result was not in his favor, and none of the evidence indicates he's controlling or manipulating it? Superman specifically addresses Mandrakk and Hyperstory separately, he assigns Hyperstory a will of it's own, and says it is driving both him and Mandrakk towards the conclusion. He never connects it to Mandrakk or regards him as controlling it or the situation. Your opinion is just an opinion, and without evidence, your speculative headcanon doesn't matter.

And the argument against subjective reality has no evidence. Deagonx has refused to post a scan supporting that Mandrakk being believed into existence by the Monitors was because of some outside power of belief.

Asking me to post a scan demonstrates that you don't understand the argument, or are deliberately misrepresenting it. I am presenting an alternative possibility supported by other evidence. I have never claimed or implied that there is a scan which says this. The full context of DC supports that this is a universal concept throughout the verse itself, which means it isn't an ability that the Monitors or Mandrakk have specifically. You haven't addressed this argument whatsoever. I don't need to prove it's the case for the Monitors, you need to prove it isn't.