DC Comics - Mandrakk Rewrite

[Xearsay]

I think Mandrakks justifications and summary need a bit of altering.

Old first sentence of summary: “Mandrakk is the corrupted version of half of the original extension of Monitor-Mind the Overvoid that examined the Multiverse before splitting and leaving behind the Thought Robot.”

New first sentence: Mandrakk is the part of Monitor Mind the Overvoid that felt contaminated by the Multiverse.(Final Crisis Superman Beyond #2)

Remove the first sentence and add this in its place. As Mandrakk is not a corrupted half of Dax Novu, Mandrakk is Dax Novu.

Original attack potency: “(Is half of the extension of Monitor-Mind The Overvoid that examined the DC Multiverse. Exists in the archetypal Monitor world of Nil as the "bad" side of every conceptual dichotomy. Fought the Thought Robot and wounded it beyond repair. Was able to one-shot Zillo Valla, a normal Monitor.)”

New attack potency: (Is the part of Monitor Mind the Overvoid that felt contaminated by the Multiverse.(Final Crisis Superman Beyond #2) Mandrakk was described as an absolute threat(Final Crisis Superman Beyond #2), and a hatred that threatens all existence.(Final Crisis Superman Beyond #1))

Speed: Omnipresent(Is the part of the Overvoid that felt contaminated by the Multiverse.)

Ability additions:

Void Manipulation

1. Was destroying Nil during his battle with the Thought Robot and was implied to be threatening the entire realm.(Final Crisis Superman Beyond #1) Nil is a realm where form and meaning surrender to the Overvoid.(Final Crisis Superman Beyond #2)

Subjective reality

1. Was using the Monitors to believe himself into existence.(Final Crisis Superman Beyond #2)

Plot Manipulation

1. The Overvoid, Nix Uotan and the Monitors have plot manipulation. Mandrakk is a direct part of the Overvoid and also a monitor.
2. One shot a Monitor.(Final Crisis Superman Beyond #2) The Monitors have narratives formed around themselves like crystals in solution.(Final Crisis Superman Beyond #2)
3. The moment Mandrakk starts trying to destroy the Thought Robot, the Thought Robot would state he’s inside a self assembling Hyperstory trying its best to destroy him.(Final Crisis Superman Beyond #2)

 

[Xearsay]

Bump

 

[Deagonx]

Disagree, I think the current page is better. His attack potency shouldn't include vague statements like "absolute threat" which means nothing. I also think describing him as Monitor-Mind's probe is preferable.

I also disagree with the ability additions as well. Nil isn't a void in any practical sense.

Subjective reality is described as the power that allows the user to manipulate the boundary between reality and unreality. It allows the user to induce reality to what is fiction, fantasy or imaginary, bringing them into existence, as well as turning facts, entities and events into unreality, vanishing them as if they were a mere dream or illusion.

I don't think Zillo saying they're "believing Mandrakk into existence" grants that to Mandrakk, and if anything, it just seems representative of the overarching model on DC where belief induces reality, and it shouldn't be given as an ability to Mandrakk anymore than all Greeks in DC should get it for creating Zeus or something like that.

Plot manipulation is also based on a lot of speculative nonsense and arguably none of the people listed should have it at all. Also Zillo didn't call Thought Robot a story, she said she found a story in the germ worlds (the physical universes) and Thought Robot wasn't in the germ worlds.

There's also nothing suggesting that Mandrakk was controlling the hyperstory or was the hyperstory, we have never been given any additional information about what Hyperstory meant or what it was.

 

[Vondoom]

What's the hyperstory?

 

[Deagonx]

What's the hyperstory?

We don't know. The term "hyperstory" is only used once, and Grant never expanded upon it in any interviews. During Thought Robot's fight with Mandrakk, he remarks "I'm in a self-assembling hyper-story, and it's trying to destroy me." And some have theorized that since he was fighting Mandrakk, who was trying to destroy him, that Mandrakk is the hyperstory. However, this is just a theory, not one that I personally agree with.

 

[Xearsay]

Disagree, I think the current page is better. His attack potency shouldn't include vague statements like "absolute threat" which means nothing. I also think describing him as Monitor-Mind's probe is preferable.

The full statement is “absolute threat to the Multiverse” which does have meaning. Also Mandrakk being the probe and also being the part of the Overvoid that felt contaminated by the multiverse can both coexist on the profile.

I also disagree with the ability additions as well. Nil isn't a void in any practical sense.

Yes it is, as it’s described as a void by the Merryman and confirmed by the Thought Robot who calls it “the blank, the Nil, the gone, where form and meaning surrender to the Overvoid.”

I don't think Zillo saying they're "believing Mandrakk into existence" grants that to Mandrakk, and if anything,

She said “You’re using us to believe you into existence.” Also even if it was an ability of the Monitors, why would Mandrakk have different abilities from the rest of the Monitors?

There's also nothing suggesting that Mandrakk was controlling the hyperstory or was the hyperstory, we have never been given any additional information about what Hyperstory meant or what it was.

Disagree. Mandrakk was expressed as trying to destroy CAS right after CAS recognizes that the Hyperstory is trying to destroy him.

You also haven’t addressed my third example of plot manipulation, being that Mandrakk
One shot a Monitor.(Final Crisis Superman Beyond #2) The Monitors have narratives formed around themselves like crystals in solution.(Final Crisis Superman Beyond #2)

 

[Alonik]

The full statement is “absolute threat to the Multiverse” which does have meaning. Also Mandrakk being the probe and also being the part of the Overvoid that felt contaminated by the multiverse can both coexist on the profile.

No the "threat" doesn't means that he would or had the means for wiping out the entire multiverse in a single shot, he was feeding with bleed, and Mandrakk endeavors was to enslave the entire creation, not destroy it.

 

[PrinceStories]

for Upgrade Mandrakk, I really reject the Attack potency for new, because just a portion of Overvoid doesn't mean Mandrakk can get High 1-A let alone Overvoid get High 1-A because it considers everything in DC to be Infinitesimal and also goes outside the DC Hierarchy Conceptually, meanwhile Mandrakk no

 

[Xearsay]

No the "threat" doesn't means that he would or had the means for wiping out the entire multiverse in a single shot, he was feeding with bleed, and Mandrakk endeavors was to enslave the entire creation, not destroy it.

Point out where I said he was going to one shot the entire Multiverse. Quickly.

Also Mandrakk didn’t want to enslave the Multiverse and nowhere is that stated in Final Crisis. Mandrakk wanted everything that existed dead. And this is presented multiple times.

1) The Monitors directly mentioning that if their world dies all existence will die with them.

2) Book of limbo saying Mandrakk wants all life dead multiple times.

3) CAS being directly called a doomsday(last day of existence) machine meant to defend against Mandrakk.

I could honestly go on.

 

[Xearsay]

for Upgrade Mandrakk, I really reject the Attack potency for new, because just a portion of Overvoid doesn't mean Mandrakk can get High 1-A let alone Overvoid get High 1-A because it considers everything in DC to be Infinitesimal and also goes outside the DC Hierarchy Conceptually, meanwhile Mandrakk no

This isn’t about tiers.

 

[PrinceStories]

This isn’t about tiers.

so you consider Mandrakk It's equivalent to Overvoid?

 

[Xearsay]

so you consider Mandrakk It's equivalent to Overvoid?

Not to the entire Overvoid. He’s the part that felt contaminated. All I’m saying is that whether this would result in a tier upgrade is not the point of this thread.

 

[PrinceStories]

Not to the entire Overvoid. He’s the part that felt contaminated. All I’m saying is that whether this would result in a tier upgrade is not the point of this thread.

I'm just making sure because your Thread on Morrison's Cosmology your Thought robot and Mandrakk are on par with Overvoid

 

[Xearsay]

I'm just making sure because your Thread on Morrison's Cosmology your Thought robot and Mandrakk are on par with Overvoid

Well in that thread I was more of just establishing that Mandrakk and the Overvoid are not entirely separate entities. Essentially, I view the relationship like this. When the Overvoid felt contaminated by the Multiverse existing on it, that’s Mandrakk. He represents that side of the Overvoid and how the Overvoid felt.

 

[PrinceStories]

Well in that thread I was more of just establishing that Mandrakk and the Overvoid are not entirely separate entities. Essentially, I view the relationship like this. When the Overvoid felt contaminated by the Multiverse existing on it, that’s Mandrakk. He represents that side of the Overvoid and how the Overvoid felt.

the sides in Overvoid itself are divided into two, namely good and evil, good is broken down into Cosmic armor and evil is broken down into Mandrakk, these two sides are opposite to each other

 

[PrinceStories]

okay Xearsay Are you going to make a Thread about Thought Robot ability and also its tiers?, and what Tier Mandrakk do you think Likely High 1-A or Possibly High 1-A?

 

[Xearsay]

okay Xearsay Are you going to make a Thread about Thought Robot ability and also its tiers?, and what Tier Mandrakk do you think Likely High 1-A or Possibly High 1-A?

Yes, the Thought Robot is probably next on my to do list for fixing DC profiles. It’s either him or the New Gods. For tiers I’ll probably save that for after the cosmology split part two. Mandrakk should be likely whatever tier the Overvoid ends up being but still considered a lesser entity.

 

[Deagonx]

Mandrakk should be likely whatever tier the Overvoid ends up being

Wew lad

 

[PrinceStories]

Yes, the Thought Robot is probably next on my to do list for fixing DC profiles. It’s either him or the New Gods. For tiers I’ll probably save that for after the cosmology split part two. Mandrakk should be likely whatever tier the Overvoid ends up being but still considered a lesser entity.

so Mandrakk will only get Likely High 1-A ?

 

[Xearsay]

so Mandrakk will only get Likely High 1-A ?

He should likely or just flat out be whatever tier the Overvoid is. If the Overvoid gets to stay at high 1-A then Mandrakk should be high 1-A, as being a specific part of a high 1-A entity is still high 1-A.

 

[PrinceStories]

is that so, So whether to add plot manipulation to Thought Robot?

 

[Xearsay]

is that so, So whether to add plot manipulation to Thought Robot?

The Thought Robot should have resistance to plot manipulation due to the whole hyperstory thing. Possibly plot manipulation as well for other reasons.

 

[PrinceStories]

The Thought Robot should have resistance to plot manipulation due to the whole hyperstory thing. Possibly plot manipulation as well for other reasons.

ok, looks like this thread should be done really fast

 

[Vondoom]

We don't know. The term "hyperstory" is only used once, and Grant never expanded upon it in any interviews. During Thought Robot's fight with Mandrakk, he remarks "I'm in a self-assembling hyper-story, and it's trying to destroy me." And some have theorized that since he was fighting Mandrakk, who was trying to destroy him, that Mandrakk is the hyperstory. However, this is just a theory, not one that I personally agree with.

What if the hyper-story is the story and it's trying to destroy him?

 

[Vondoom]

He should likely or just flat out be whatever tier the Overvoid is. If the Overvoid gets to stay at high 1-A then Mandrakk should be high 1-A, as being a specific part of a high 1-A entity is still high 1-A.

I don't see anyway Mandrakk scales to the Overvoid.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Was using the Monitors to believe himself into existence.(Final Crisis Superman Beyond #2

He's not the one doing that, so its not his ability

 

[Xearsay]

He's not the one doing that, so its not his ability

It’s the Monitors believing him into existence, however Mandrakk should have the same abilities as all of them.

I don't see anyway Mandrakk scales to the Overvoid.

I do. And I’ve listed my reasons in the comment you quoted.

 

[Deagonx]

being a specific part of a high 1-A entity is still high 1-A.

This is trivially false. The idea that Monitor-Mind is literally incapable of making a probe that isn't High 1-A is a ridiculous premise. Being part of a large thing doesn't scale you to it, independent of other evidence. The Omniverse could be 1-A, and the individual universe is a part of the Omniverse, but that doesn't make the Universe 1-A.

 

[Alonik]

This is trivially false. The idea that Monitor-Mind is literally incapable of making a probe that isn't High 1-A is a ridiculous premise. Being part of a large thing doesn't scale you to it, independent of other evidence. The Omniverse could be 1-A, and the individual universe is a part of the Omniverse, but that doesn't make the Universe 1-A.

Yes, or like how ultraman and superman are part of CAS and doesn't make them have the Robot's tier

 

[Vondoom]

I do. And I’ve listed my reasons in the comment you quoted.

His literally separate from the Overvoid and now his own being, so obviously he won't scale to overvoid.

 

[Xearsay]

The idea that Monitor-Mind is literally incapable of making a probe that isn't High 1-A is a ridiculous premise.

And this is where you went wrong. Mandrakk is not something Monitor Mind created. Mandrakk is quite literally a direct part of Monitor Mind itself. And as far as I’m aware, a part of a high 1-A entity is still high 1-A. However the point of this thread isn’t about tiers, so I’m going to need everyone to stop derailing this.

 

[Deagonx]

Mandrakk is not something Monitor Mind created. Mandrakk is quite literally a direct part of Monitor Mind itself. And as far as I’m aware, a part of a high 1-A entity is still high 1-A.

First, Monitor Mind did create Mandrakk. This much is directly stated. Second, no, being part of a High 1-A thing does not justify any tier the same way being a grain of sand isn't a beach. The Monitor Brothers were also made from pieces of the Overvoid, that doesn't make them scale to the Overvoid.

 

[Xearsay]

First, Monitor Mind did create Mandrakk. This much is directly stated. Second, no, being part of a High 1-A thing does not justify any tier the same way being a grain of sand isn't a beach. The Monitor Brothers were also made from pieces of the Overvoid, that doesn't make them scale to the Overvoid.

He wasn’t really a creation. Monitor Mind extended a probe with this probe being the part of Monitor Mind that felt contaminated by the Multiverse. Also I’m not arguing Mandrakk = Monitor Mind, I’m arguing that Mandrakk is a direct part of Monitor Minds being. And similarly to how a direct part of a 3D being is still 3D, a direct part of a High 1-A being is still High 1-A.

 

[Deagonx]

He wasn’t really a creation.

He was. Grant said this directly that Monitor Mind created the Monitors. This claim also doesn't track with him using the Monitors to believe him into existence.

I’m arguing that Mandrakk is a direct part of Monitor Minds being. And similarly to how a direct part of a 3D being is still 3D, a direct part of a High 1-A being is still High 1-A.

This is a fallacious argument. There is not a single quality of the Overvoid that becomes mandatory for Mandrakk just because he's "a part" of him. That's textbook "fallacy of division."

And even getting there requires believing that our best source of information about Mandrakk is Clark Kent, rather than the other information we have.

 

[Deagonx]

similarly to how a direct part of a 3D being is still 3D

This example in particular is false. Fundamental particles such as Quarks which constitute to form protons and neutrons are not three-dimensional.

This should hopefully illustrate to you that your reasoning is false. You cannot use the claim that Mandrakk is a "part of" Overvoid to justify anything.

 

[Xearsay]

He was. Grant said this directly that Monitor Mind created the Monitors. This claim also doesn't track with him using the Monitors to believe him into existence.

Mandrakk wasn’t created with them. He existed before they were even created and this is quite literally shown to us in the book of limbo.

This is a fallacious argument. There is not a single quality of the Overvoid that becomes mandatory for Mandrakk just because he's "a part" of him. That's textbook "fallacy of division."

It’s not fallacious at all. If Mandrakk is a part of the Overvoid, and the Overvoid is high 1-A, Mandrakk would also be high 1-A. As a fraction or part of a high 1-A is still high 1-A. Similarly to how a fraction of infinity is still infinity.

 

[Xearsay]

This example in particular is false. Fundamental particles such as Quarks which constitute to form protons and neutrons are not three-dimensional.

Obviously, when I say “part of a 3D being” I’m not talking about the fundamental quantum particles which constitute our matter. So this is irrelevant.

 

[Deagonx]

Mandrakk wasn’t created with them.

I didn't say he was. He was created first. That doesn't change the fact that he was created.

It’s not fallacious at all. If Mandrakk is a part of the Overvoid, and the Overvoid is high 1-A, Mandrakk would also be high 1-A. As a fraction or part of a high 1-A is still high 1-A. Similarly to how a fraction of infinity is still infinity

Not all parts are fractions. 5 is a part of the infinite set of whole numbers, but is finite. Your reasoning is literally called fallacy of division and your example proved how your reasoning leads to incorrect conclusions.

Obviously, when I say “part of a 3D being” I’m not talking about the fundamental quantum particles which constitute our matter. So this is irrelevant.

Except quarks are parts of a 3D being and aren't 3D. Your reasoning is incorrect. Saying your false claim "obviously" didn't refer to the counter-example doesn't make it irrelevant, as it directly proves your reasoning is false.

 

[Xearsay]

I didn't say he was. He was created first. That doesn't change the fact that he was created.

You argued that Grant said “Monitor Mind created the Monitors” in attempt to prove that Mandrakk was created by the Overvoid. However, Mandrakk wasn’t created with the monitors. So this doesn’t make any sense. And CAS says that Mandrakk represents a part or side of Monitor Mind itself, so your statement that he was created by the Overvoid is wrong.

Not all parts are fractions. 5 is a part of the infinite set of whole numbers, but is finite. Your reasoning is literally called fallacy of division and your example proved how your reasoning leads to incorrect conclusions.

Except quarks are parts of a 3D being and aren't 3D. Your reasoning is incorrect.

Mandrakk doesn’t represent a part of the Overvoid like a quark or a number within a set. Mandrakk represents the Overvoid when it felt contaminated by the Multiverse. It’s similar to how a person can speak on how they felt about something as if it’s a separate part of themselves.

Example: “A part of me didn’t feel like going to the movies today.”

 

[Deagonx]

You argued that Grant said “Monitor Mind created the Monitors” in attempt to prove that Mandrakk was created by the Overvoid. However, Mandrakk wasn’t created with the monitors. So this doesn’t make any sense

Mandrakk is a monitor. The fact that he was created before the rest does not change that.

And CAS says that Mandrakk represents a part or side of Monitor Mind itself, so your statement that he was created by the Overvoid is wrong

What Clark said doesn't contradict the fact that Mandrakk was created by the Overvoid. You're just grasping at straws now.

Mandrakk doesn’t represent a part of the Overvoid like a quark or a number within a set. Mandrakk represents the Overvoid when it felt contaminated by the Multiverse.
It’s similar to how a person can speak on how they felt about something as if it’s a separate part of themselves.

Example: “A part of me didn’t feel like going to the movies today.”

You can certainly claim that, but given that all you have is a single line that did not explain any of this, it's just conjecture, and it still wouldn't justify scaling. Mandrakk is a separate and distinct being from the Overvoid. The fact that the Overvoid created the Monitors like Mandrakk doesn't mean any of them scale to the Overvoid. The reasoning is fallacious (fallacy of division) and your example proved it was fallacious.