DC Comics - Mandrakk Rewrite

[Vondoom]

Deagonx makes sense

 

[Swerzye29038]

I don't really think nil counts as a void does it? time and space as well as matter were directly stated to exist there, just at a higher level compared to the rest of the multiverse.

the subjective reality thing is not something mandrakk has ever displayed himself, but I could see an argument for the addition due to the fact that he is a monitor and they should more or less all have the same abilities

mandrakk doesn't scale to the overvoid

 

[Vondoom]

I don't really think nil counts as a void does it? time and space were directly stated to exist there, just at a higher level compared to the rest of the multiverse.

It dosen't, it's stated to be a higher dimension in the Void.

 

[Swerzye29038]

So then that settles it. Nil is not a void, or at least a "void" in the practical sense in which it would apply to the wiki

 

[Xearsay]

Mandrakk is a monitor. The fact that he was created before the rest does not change that.

Sure he’s a monitor. That still doesn’t mean he was created like the rest of the Monitors though. Especially when the book of Limbo showcases that he wasn’t created with them.

What Clark said doesn't contradict the fact that Mandrakk was created by the Overvoid.

You don’t even have proof Mandrakk was created in the first place.

You can certainly claim that, but given that all you have is a single line that did not explain any of this, it's just conjecture, and it still wouldn't justify scaling.

The line by CAS implies exactly what I’m talking about. As CAS said Mandrakk is “the part of Monitor that felt contaminated by the Multiverse.” Meaning Mandrakk represents Monitor Mind when Monitor Mind didn’t want the Multiverse on itself.

 

[Xearsay]

I don't really think nil counts as a void does it? time and space as well as matter were directly stated to exist there, just at a higher level compared to the rest of the multiverse.

I don’t really get your point on the time and space thing. Also matter isn’t within Nil. I don’t even know where you got that from since matter is said on the map to stop at limbo, and CAS talks about how there’s no matter in Nil.

 

[Alonik]

Obviously, when I say “part of a 3D being” I’m not talking about the fundamental quantum particles which constitute our matter. So this is irrelevant.

Howbeit, his point stands out, not least because it is a counterpoint to what you think and have said. In addition to that point made by @Deagonx, the Monitor mind acted to contain the flaw, and so bottled up the flaw while trying to stop it from spreading, and thus the actual original monitor was infected by the flaw, while she was spreading into a multiverse activity and process, and the endless play of matter and narrative. So yeah, as Deagon said about, Mandrakk would be like the smallest thing, and the creation even bigger than him, since the Overvoid don't need creation to believe him into existence in the way mandrakk was getting help.

 

[Alonik]

Sure he’s a monitor. That still doesn’t mean he was created like the rest of the Monitors though. Especially when the book of Limbo showcases that he wasn’t created with them.
You don’t even have proof Mandrakk was created in the first place.

What Final Crisis did you read buddy? Mandrakk is Dax Novu, the first monitor created, he's just contaminated.

• When the unimaginably vast and abstract MONITOR intelligence encountered within itself the twists and complexities of the Multiverse it reacted, as a God-like mega-mind would do it generated a race of "Angels" or "Monitors" to study and "oversee" the Multiverse and to act as an interface between Multiverse and Monitor. Greatest of all Monitors was Dax Novu, the "Radiant One," the Explorer and Scientist. But it was also Novu who returned from the Multiverse infected by the forms and by the stories of the creatures he had encountered inside. Shunned by the other Monitors for bringing contamination, his won story twisted inexorably towards the darkness. Misunderstood, shunned, feared and finally neglected, Novu became the ultimate the other Monitors feared. Reborn as Mandrakk the Dark Monitor, Novu is the absolute personification of vampiric hunger on a cosmic, existential scale.: Final Crisis – Secret Files #1

@Deagonx is totally correct, I just want to add the fact that there is no way Mandrakk can even be something to the Overvoid, because he is the imperfection that the Monitor Mind itself rejects, he is in other words the very personification of the flaw after being affected by it and being this vampiric hunger on a cosmic, and existential scale.

 

[Deagonx]

That still doesn’t mean he was created like the rest of the Monitors though.

Yet he was. This was directly stated

You don’t even have proof Mandrakk was created in the first place.

See above. Alonik's scan is where it is stated.

As CAS said Mandrakk is “the part of Monitor that felt contaminated by the Multiverse.” Meaning Mandrakk represents Monitor Mind when Monitor Mind didn’t want the Multiverse on itself.

Your interpretation of the meaning of that statement is solely an interpretation, and even if taken at face value it still wouldn't justify scaling. The practical information we have about Mandrakk supercedes one vague figurative sentence. Mandrakk is far less powerful than the Overvoid, and is its creation.

And according to Grant. Mandrakk and CAS are a duality that Overvoid transcends.

 

[Deagonx]

When the unimaginably vast and abstract MONITOR intelligence encountered within itself the twists and complexities of the Multiverse it reacted, as a God-like mega-mind would do it generated a race of "Angels" or "Monitors" to study and "oversee" the Multiverse and to act as an interface between Multiverse and Monitor. Greatest of all Monitors was Dax Novu, the "Radiant One," the Explorer and Scientist. But it was also Novu who returned from the Multiverse infected by the forms and by the stories of the creatures he had encountered inside. Shunned by the other Monitors for bringing contamination, his won story twisted inexorably towards the darkness. Misunderstood, shunned, feared and finally neglected, Novu became the ultimate the other Monitors feared. Reborn as Mandrakk the Dark Monitor, Novu is the absolute personification of vampiric hunger on a cosmic, existential scale.:

To add to this, since there's no doubt that he will attempt to downplay the implications: The very first sentence in Mandrakk's bio establishes Monitor-Mind as creating the Monitors, and says Mandrakk was the greatest of the Monitors. The only possible reason to try and deny that the Overvoid created Mandrakk just like the other Monitor is because your attempt to grossly over-tier Mandrakk relies on falsely painting him as being on the same level as the Overvoid rather than being on the level of the Monitors, even though all of the other information we have collectively rejects that interpretation.

 

[Swerzye29038]

I don’t really get your point on the time and space thing.

Things that constitute physical existence (time, space, matter) cannot logically exist within an actual void, hence it isn't a void.

Also matter isn’t within Nil. I don’t even know where you got that from since matter is said on the map to stop at limbo, and CAS talks about how there’s no matter in Nil.

This was a mistake on my part, CAS says time, space, and scale, not matter. Regardless, my point still stands

 

[Vondoom]

Things that constitute physical existence (time, space, matter) cannot logically exist within an actual void, hence it isn't a void.

You're sure about this? I thought even universes can exist in a void.

 

[Swerzye29038]

You're sure about this? I thought even universes can exist in a void.

I guess depending on the work of fiction universes can exist within a void, but a universe cannot be the void itself. Xear is insisting the world of nil is a void itself, which it isn't.

 

[Vondoom]

but a universe cannot be the void itself.

This is very obvious since universes are space-time and Voids are nothingness.
Nil isn't a void itself just exists within one.

 

[Xearsay]

and thus the actual original monitor was infected by the flaw, while she was spreading into a multiverse activity and process, and the endless play of matter and narrative. So yeah, as Deagon said about, Mandrakk would be like the smallest thing, and the creation even bigger than him, since the Overvoid don't need creation to believe him into existence in the way mandrakk was getting help.

I don’t really understand what you’re getting at here. We’re talking about whether Mandrakks tier would scale to the Overvoids. Not Mandrakks physical size.

I just want to add the fact that there is no way Mandrakk can even be something to the Overvoid, because he is the imperfection that the Monitor Mind itself rejects, he is in other words the very personification of the flaw after being affected by it and being this vampiric hunger on a cosmic, and existential scale.

Mandrakk is not the imperfection Monitor Mind didn’t want on itself. The imperfection was the flaw/Multiverse. You’re literally just creating headcanon at this point to try and find any possible excuse to deny Mandrakk being a part or side of the Overvoid. Similarly to how you also said earlier in this thread that “Mandrakk was only trying to enslave the Multiverse.”

 

[Xearsay]

Things that constitute physical existence (time, space, matter) cannot logically exist within an actual void, hence it isn't a void.

Well I think it’s kind of weird. While yes the Monitors did mention time entering their timeless world, It seemed like they were referring to some abstract clock work pattern on the sky.

However there is also good evidence of Nil being a void, as not only is the name of the realm(Nil) a literal synonym for nothing, the realm itself is quite literally called a void multiple times, with form and meaning being said to surrender to the Overvoid.

 

[Xearsay]

The only possible reason to try and deny that the Overvoid created Mandrakk just like the other Monitor is because your attempt to grossly over-tier Mandrakk relies on falsely painting him as being on the same level as the Overvoid

I mean, even if the Overvoid generated a part of itself, ie Mandrakk, how would that disprove Mandrakk scaling? It’s not like Mandrakk/part of the Overvoid, no longer is part of the Overvoid because the Overvoid generated it.

Also I don’t think you understand what interpretation is. Interpretation in literature is just explanation the meaning of something. So whenever you read something and try to explain the meaning of what you’re reading, that’s interpretation.

 

[Alonik]

I don’t really understand what you’re getting at here. We’re talking about whether Mandrakks tier would scale to the Overvoids. Not Mandrakks physical size.

But he doesn't scale, i was just supporting Deagon's reasoning, I think you should start considering what your opponent actually talks about.

Mandrakk is not the imperfection Monitor Mind didn’t want on itself. The imperfection was the flaw/Multiverse. You’re literally just creating headcanon at this point to try and find any possible excuse to deny Mandrakk being a part or side of the Overvoid. Similarly to how you also said earlier in this thread that “Mandrakk was only trying to enslave the Multiverse.”

Never said that Mandrakk is the imperfection itself, you should actually adress what i said correctly, i said that Mandrakk is being born just because the actual monitor was infected by the flaw, Mandrakk is a embodiment of the flaw itself, i didn't create a Headcanon to begin with, you who created a strawman and thus also a Headcanon because it was never said that Mandrakk was created by the overvoid (not that it give him any tier likewise his previous self).

Dax Novu was created by the Overvoid, which doesn't give it any tier similar to the flaw itself, Dax Novu was so encompassed by the flaw and it's concepts that he was made reborn by the flaw and fragmented into several monitors. And yes, Mandrakk was only trying to enslave the Multiverse, it is literally said that he would bring all existence to its knees before him, and then all life would die a.k.a. turn into vampires. It is literally shown how Mandrakk for example enslaves Ultraman by sucking all the life out of him, and then him dying and turning into a vampire. Until now you were the one with Headcanon and didn't even know that Mandrakk was created, which should be natural knowledge to those who read the story, since Mandrakk is actually an extension of Dax Novu and reborn by the flaw, and doesn't even have the same power and level as its previous form, and even the previous one doesn't scale for anything in this flawed reasoning of "being a part of something bigger make you somehow equivalent in tier".

 

[Deagonx]

I mean, even if the Overvoid generated a part of itself, ie Mandrakk, how would that disprove Mandrakk scaling?

Because being a part of something doesn't scale you to it. That's the headline here. It's incredibly obvious that this isn't the case and counter-examples are abundant.

Also I don’t think you understand what interpretation is. Interpretation in literature is just explanation the meaning of something

Interpretation in this context is being used to contrast against explicit information. No one considers it an interpretation that CAS and Mandrakk fought in Nil, as that fact is clear and explicit. When I refer to your interpretation, I am referring to you filling in gaps in the narrative with your personal opinion of what it means, and expecting that opinion to be recognized as canonical even though it's just you guessing the meaning of something vague and unspecified.

Regardless of what you think the word means or how it ought to be used, that is how most people use it.

 

[Xearsay]

But he doesn't scale, i was just supporting Deagon's reasoning, I think you should start considering what your opponent actually talks about.

But nothing you said was any actual relevance. You literally brought up things like Mandrakk being infected by stories.

Alonik -“and thus the actual original monitor was infected by the flaw, while she was spreading into a multiverse activity and process, and the endless play of matter and narrative.”

Like, what does this have to do with Mandrakk being a part of the Overvoid and thus scaling to it?

Never said that Mandrakk is the imperfection itself, you should actually adress what i said correctly, i said that Mandrakk is being born just because the actual monitor was infected by the flaw, Mandrakk is a embodiment of the flaw itself, i didn't create a Headcanon to begin with, you who created a strawman and thus also a Headcanon because it was never said that Mandrakk was created by the overvoid (not that it give him any tier likewise his previous self).

You said Mandrakk was “the imperfection Monitor Mind rejects.” And now you’re saying he’s the “embodiment of the flaw” which are both wrong.

And now you’re saying Mandrakk wasn’t created by the Overvoid? Didn’t you just say Mandrakk/Dax Novu was the “first Monitor created” ?????

Also I forgot to quote the rest of what you said however I will say this. I’m not scaling Dax Novu/Mandrakk to the flaw so I don’t know why you’re bringing that up. Also Mandrakk infecting Ultraman =/= Mandrakk is only trying to enslave the Multiverse. There’s also multiple statements that support that Mandrakk wanted to kill everything, with the Monitors even talking about how their world is going to die and kill everyone with them.

 

[Alonik]

But nothing you said was any actual relevance. You literally brought up things like Mandrakk being infected by stories.

Alonik -“and thus the actual original monitor was infected by the flaw, while she was spreading into a multiverse activity and process, and the endless play of matter and narrative.”

Like, what does this have to do with Mandrakk being a part of the Overvoid and thus scaling to it?

This shows that Mandrakk is part of the flaw, and the Overvoid takes actions to contain the multiverse and what's is inside, Mandrakk does not even transcend the divine metals that sealed the multiverse, to begin with.

You said Mandrakk was “the imperfection Monitor Mind rejects.” And now you’re saying he’s the “embodiment of the flaw” which are both wrong.

And now you’re saying Mandrakk wasn’t created by the Overvoid? Didn’t you just say Mandrakk/Dax Novu was the “first Monitor created” ?????

"It's wrong because yes", is totally right, but not you claiming to be wrong by your own headcanon will make it wrong.

Yes, mandrakk was not created by the Overvoid, Dax Novu the primary form of all monitors was created by Overvoid. The stories affected Dax Novu and he was split into a race of monitors, and it is even said that Mandrakk is the evil part of Dax Novu, it is literally just a part of the being that was Novu when he went into failure: "you're the part of the monitor that felt contaminated by the Multiverse! Isn't it obvious? You were Dax Novu! You were the best of them!", and again, your personal opinions don't exist in the comic, as has already been stated here, you are just inserting them in places they don't even fit.

 

[Xearsay]

This shows that Mandrakk is part of the flaw, and the Overvoid takes actions to contain the multiverse and what's is inside, Mandrakk does not even transcend the divine metals that sealed the multiverse, to begin with.

So if I’m getting this straight, you’re saying because Mandrakk was infected by stories that he’s part of the flaw? If this is what you’re arguing, how does Mandrakk being corrupted by the stories he encountered within the flaw necessitate that he is a part of it?

Also what do you mean by Mandrakk doesn’t even transcend the divine metals? Are you trying to say Mandrakk exist within the flaw or something? If so post evidence because I can’t find anything in the comics to support this.

Yes, mandrakk was not created by the Overvoid, Dax Novu the primary form of all monitors was created by Overvoid. The stories affected Dax Novu and he was split into a race of monitors, and it is even said that Mandrakk is the evil part of Dax Novu, it is literally just a part of the being that was Novu when he went into failure: "you're the part of the monitor that felt contaminated by the Multiverse! Isn't it obvious? You were Dax Novu! You were the best of them!", and again, your personal opinions don't exist in the comic, as has already been stated here, you are just inserting them in places they don't even fit.

Wow. There’s so much wrong with this I don’t even know where to start.

1. Mandrakk is just Dax Novu turned into a cosmic vampire. This is even highlighted the scans you posted. “Misunderstood, shunned, feared and finally neglected, Novu became the ultimate the other Monitors feared. Reborn as Mandrakk the Dark Monitor, Novu is the absolute personification of vampiric hunger on a cosmic, existential scale.” So saying Mandrakk wasn’t created by the Overvoid but Dax Novu was created by the Overvoid makes no sense.

2. Post evidence of Dax Novu being the primary form of all monitors. Because as far as I’m aware literally nothing in the comics supports that.

3. Oh my ******* god. Once again, Mandrakk is not a part of Dax Novu. Mandrakk is Dax Novu after he was turned into a vampire. Also in the statements from CAS, “you're the part of monitor that felt contaminated by the Multiverse! Isn’t it obvious?” The first part is talking about how Mandrakk is part of the Overvoid. As the single name “Monitor” was used to refer to the Overvoid throughout Superman Beyond.(Superman Beyond #1) The second part, “You were Dax Novu! You were the best of them!" Is just simply highlighting how Mandrakk pre corruption was known as Dax Novu and was the greatest of the Monitors.

 

[Deagonx]

So saying Mandrakk wasn’t created by the Overvoid but Dax Novu was created by the Overvoid makes no sense.

"Reborn."

Oh my ******* god. Once again, Mandrakk is not a part of Dax Novu. Mandrakk is Dax Novu after he was turned into a vampire.

Stop having a temper tantrum. Dax was the probe that split. He split into Mandrakk.

If this is what you’re arguing, how does Mandrakk being corrupted by the stories he encountered within the flaw necessitate that he is a part of it?

Dax Novu was corrupted. Mandrakk is corrupted by the flaw. The flaw is part of him in that sense.

 

[Vondoom]

Isn't the flaw the multiverse/Omniverse?

 

[PrinceStories]

Isn't the flaw the multiverse/Omniverse?

well, you could say that Flaw is an all-creation from Comic Morrison which contains lives, deaths, heroes, villains, lovers, and stories without precedent for The concepts story

 

[Alonik]

1. Mandrakk is just Dax Novu turned into a cosmic vampire. This is even highlighted the scans you posted. “Misunderstood, shunned, feared and finally neglected, Novu became the ultimate the other Monitors feared. Reborn as Mandrakk the Dark Monitor, Novu is the absolute personification of vampiric hunger on a cosmic, existential scale.” So saying Mandrakk wasn’t created by the Overvoid but Dax Novu was created by the Overvoid makes no sense.

2. Post evidence of Dax Novu being the primary form of all monitors. Because as far as I’m aware literally nothing in the comics supports that.

3. Oh my ******* god. Once again, Mandrakk is not a part of Dax Novu. Mandrakk is Dax Novu after he was turned into a vampire. Also in the statements from CAS, “you're the part of monitor that felt contaminated by the Multiverse! Isn’t it obvious?” The first part is talking about how Mandrakk is part of the Overvoid. As the single name “Monitor” was used to refer to the Overvoid throughout Superman Beyond.(Superman Beyond #1) The second part, “You were Dax Novu! You were the best of them!" Is just simply highlighting how Mandrakk pre corruption was known as Dax Novu and was the greatest of the Monitors.

Neat mental juggling act, but you should definitely read the comics to at least debate first.

• For study, Monitor-Mind brings forth science monitor DAX NOVU. Who selflessly enters the Flaw and is CONTAMINATED-- AND SPLIT IN TWO.

Yeah, Dax Novu was created by the Overvoid, and just because he entered the flaw he was split in two being, and afterwards his good part was split again into 52 beings, Mandrakk is just the part of the Monitor (Dax Novu) that felt contaminated, not from the Monitor-mind.

 

[Xearsay]

Why did you reply to only half my comment? In the first half of my comment that you ignored, I asked you two questions.

1. How does Mandrakk being infected by stories mean he’s a part of or an embodiment of the flaw?

2. Are you trying to say Mandrakk exist within the flaw or something? If so post evidence because I can’t find anything in the comics to support this.

Please address these in your next comment.

Neat mental juggling act, but you should definitely read the comics to at least debate first.

• For study, Monitor-Mind brings forth science monitor DAX NOVU. Who selflessly enters the Flaw and is CONTAMINATED-- AND SPLIT IN TWO.

Yeah, Dax Novu was created by the Overvoid, and just because he entered the flaw he was split in two being, and afterwards his good part was split again into 52 beings, Mandrakk is just the part of the Monitor (Dax Novu) that felt contaminated, not from the Monitor-mind.

Literally nothing in that scan supports what you’re saying. It says Dax Novu entered the flaw and was split in two, that’s it. It doesn’t mention Mandrakk being what Dax Novu split into, or that he had a “good part” which split into the the 52 Monitors.

And this entire wacky headcanon you created is pretty much refuted in the secret files scan.

“When the unimaginably vast and abstract MONITOR intelligence encountered within itself the twists and complexities of the Multiverse it reacted, as a God-like mega-mind would do it generated a race of "Angels" or "Monitors" to study and "oversee" the Multiverse and to act as an interface between Multiverse and Monitor.”

As shown in this first part above, Monitor Mind generated the Monitors, not Dax Novu.

“Greatest of all Monitors was Dax Novu, the "Radiant One," the Explorer and Scientist. But it was also Novu who returned from the Multiverse infected by the forms and by the stories of the creatures he had encountered inside. Shunned by the other Monitors for bringing contamination, his won story twisted inexorably towards the darkness. Misunderstood, shunned, feared and finally neglected, Novu became the ultimate the other Monitors feared. Reborn as Mandrakk the Dark Monitor, Novu is the absolute personification of vampiric hunger on a cosmic, existential scale.”

And in this second part, they use Novu and Mandrakk interchangeably. Going as far to even say Novu “is the absolute personification of vampiric hunger on a cosmic existential scale.” Meaning Mandrakk and Dax Novu are the same being. Which makes sense as “Mandrakk the Dark Monitor” is the name given to Dax Novu after he became a vampire.

And as I said before, this also aligns with CAS’s statements towards Mandrakk, “You were Dax Novu! You were the best of them!”

 

[Xearsay]

"Reborn."

Yes. Dax Novu was reborn as Mandrakk. However it’s still the same being or entity. As Novu is used interchangeably with Mandrakk in the very same scan you’re referring to.

“Misunderstood, shunned, feared and finally neglected, Novu became the ultimate the other Monitors feared. Reborn as Mandrakk the Dark Monitor, Novu is the absolute personification of vampiric hunger on a cosmic, existential scale.”

Stop having a temper tantrum. Dax was the probe that split. He split into Mandrakk.

What temper tantrum? The fact that you even said that makes me think you’re the one who’s pressed. Also post evidence that Mandrakk is half of what Dax Novu split into.

Dax Novu was corrupted. Mandrakk is corrupted by the flaw. The flaw is part of him in that sense.

Metaphorically maybe. Not literally though. As Mandrakk being corrupted from looking at the flaw doesn’t necessitate the flaw being a literal piece or part of his being.

Also Alonik isn’t saying the flaw is part of Mandrakk. Alonik is saying Mandrakk is an embodiment of the flaw/Multiverse. Which is obviously wrong and has absolutely no evidence whatsoever to support.

Alonik - “Mandrakk is a embodiment of the flaw itself…”

 

[Deagonx]

It says Dax Novu entered the flaw and was split in two, that’s it. It doesn’t mention Mandrakk being what Dax Novu split into

That's the obvious implication. What alternative meaning would it have? Mandrakk isn't walking around bisected.

As Mandrakk being corrupted from looking at the flaw doesn’t necessitate the flaw being a literal piece or part of his being.

It's a moot point regardless. Your rewrite has no support and the idea of scaling Mandrakk to the Overvoid just because Superman called him a "part of it" doesn't make any sense, as it's a fallacy of division, and no one is going to accept an extreme upgrade based on a fallacy.

 

[Xearsay]

That's the obvious implication. What alternative meaning would it have? Mandrakk isn't walking around bisected.

Similar to Alonik, you’re dodging parts of my post. So I’ll say this again.

Post evidence from the comics that support Mandrakk is half of Dax Novu. I don’t care about a “it’s obvious” type argument. Because as far as I’m aware, all the evidence in this thread posted indicates that Mandrakk and Dax Novu are literally the same being. With even their names being used interchangeably.

“Misunderstood, shunned, feared and finally neglected, Novu became the ultimate the other Monitors feared. Reborn as Mandrakk the Dark Monitor, Novu is the absolute personification of vampiric hunger on a cosmic, existential scale.”

It's a moot point regardless. Your rewrite has no support and the idea of scaling Mandrakk to the Overvoid just because Superman called him a "part of it" doesn't make any sense, as it's a fallacy of division, and no one is going to accept an extreme upgrade based on a fallacy.

It’s not a moot point as it’s an interpretation Alonik holds about Mandrakks origin, which is basically what this thread is meant to discuss. Also the point of this thread is not to change tiers or to upgrade Mandrakk. So if anything, this whole discussion on tiers that you’re escalating is what’s not relevant.

 

[Deagonx]

Similar to Alonik, you’re dodging parts of my post.

No, I'm not. Rather, I'm intentionally ignoring them because the points you're arguing are A) Moot, B) universally rejected, and C) not relevant to the thread either way.

It’s not a moot point as it’s an interpretation Alonik holds about Mandrakks origin, which is basically what this thread is meant to discuss. Also the point of this thread is not to change tiers or to upgrade Mandrakk.

The current profile is fine. It accurately accounts for everything the comic says in a well-reasoned manner.

 

[Alonik]

It's a moot point regardless. Your rewrite has no support and the idea of scaling Mandrakk to the Overvoid just because Superman called him a "part of it" doesn't make any sense, as it's a fallacy of division, and no one is going to accept an extreme upgrade based on a fallacy.

Superman calls him part of the Monitor who felt contaminated, so even in that part he makes a headcanon, because the Monitor who was contaminated was Dax Novu.

1. You're the part of Monitor that felt contaminated by the Multiverse! Isn't it obvious? You were Dax Novu! You were the best of them!
2. For study, Monitor-Mind brings forth science monitor DAX NOVU. Who selflessly enters the Flaw and is CONTAMINATED-- AND SPLIT IN TWO.

Most of Xearsay's arguments are just mental juggling, several attempts while making massive ad verbosium in his arguments to try and create a biased argument by mixing up the whole narrative, to try and create this narrative that still gives no tier tier at all, because being a part of something doesn't give you the tier of that.

 

[Alonik]

The current profile is fine. It accurately accounts for everything the comic says in a well-reasoned manner.

Anyhow, aside from Xearsay attempts with headcanon to change the lore of the DCU about mandrakk being the contamined part of the Monitor Dax Novu, the conclusion of this Thread should be nuked in the moment that Mandrakk is a duality that the Monitor-Mind, God, transcend as it was stated by Grant Morrison himself. The Overvoid is a non-dual being, thus he couldn't felt contamined by the flaw, or mandrakk that is a dual concept isn't a part of him either way.

• Morrison: Yeah. Again, on the very edge of the art and the edge of the mind of God there are these two big concepts fighting – Superman and Mandrakk, Predation and Protection, Greed and Preservation, Ugly and Beautiful, Youth and Age, Good and Evil, Black and White, Is and Isn't and all the others. Beyond that crumbling ledge in Monitor-World, those concepts don't exist and it's all non-dual Monitor mind, or God, or Kirby's Source, in which all contradictions are resolved into unity. It's funny, the more I talk about it, the more I'm getting into it! - Inside the Mind of Grant Morrison

 

[Deagonx]

Most of Xearsay's arguments are just mental juggling, several attempts while making massive ad verbosium in his arguments to try and create a biased argument by mixing up the whole narrative

Well put.

As you demonstrated, the evidence is entirely against his interpretation, and even if it was accepted it wouldn't justify a tier.

 

[Xearsay]

Superman calls him part of the Monitor who felt contaminated, so even in that part he makes a headcanon, because the Monitor who was contaminated was Dax Novu.

CAS doesn’t say “part of the Monitor” he says “part of Monitor” there is no “the” in the sentence. And we know for a fact that the name “Monitor” is referring to the Overvoid due to Superman Beyond #1. Furthermore, your entire baseless interpretation that Mandrakk is some half of Dax Novu goes against Secret Files which already establishes that Mandrakk is just a name given to Dax Novu post corruption.

“Misunderstood, shunned, feared and finally neglected, Novu became the ultimate the other Monitors feared. Reborn as Mandrakk the Dark Monitor, Novu is the absolute personification of vampiric hunger on a cosmic, existential scale.”

 

[Xearsay]

No, I'm not. Rather, I'm intentionally ignoring them because the points you're arguing are A) Moot, B) universally rejected, and C) not relevant to the thread either way.

How was the part of my post where I asked you to provide evidence that Dax Novu split into Mandrakk irrelevant? Lmfao, you can’t just call people questioning you for evidence of your claims irrelevant, as that would be stonewalling.

The current profile is fine. It accurately accounts for everything the comic says in a well-reasoned manner.

The current profile is wrong. It doesn’t accurately account for everything the comic says in a well-reasoned manner.

 

[Deagonx]

The current profile is wrong. It doesn’t accurately account for everything the comic says in a well-reasoned manner.

You're mistaken. It accounts for everything in the comic, and does so in a well-reasoned manner.

Your proposed rewrite simply exaggerates the few points you think you can use to inflate the tier later (as evidenced by the fact that your clear intention in attempting to establish Mandrakk as a "part of Monitor" is to claim fallaciously that he scales to the Overvoid)

Moreover, the criticism about people "avoiding your points" is ironic given that you've repeatedly done the same to Alonik and myself in this thread.

That said, the evidence of Dax splitting into Mandrakk is obvious. He entered the multiverse and was split in two. There are two options, either A) One of these two fragments is Mandrakk, or B) The two fragments were later reunited, without any mention of it in the comic, and this whole-again Dax became Mandrakk in a manner unrelated to the split, despite the fact that his origin story across two different comics explicitly emphasizes the splitting.

Given the repeated emphasis on the fact that Dax Novu/the Probe split in two it is obvious that Mandrakk is the result of that, which means he is one of the fragments. There's no evidence the fragments were reunited at some later point.

 

[Xearsay]

Moreover, the criticism about people "avoiding your points" is ironic given that you've repeatedly done the same to Alonik and myself in this thread.

I wasn’t criticizing you guys for avoiding points. It was about you two not even acknowledging the questions I asked you. Whether I was asking you for evidence or for Alonik to elaborate on what he’s trying to say, you both would intentionally refuse to do so.

That said, the evidence of Dax splitting into Mandrakk is obvious. He entered the multiverse and was split in two. There are two options, either A) One of these two fragments is Mandrakk, or B) The two fragments were later reunited, without any mention of it in the comic, and this whole-again Dax became Mandrakk in a manner unrelated to the split, despite the fact that his origin story across two different comics explicitly emphasizes the splitting.

Or there’s the third option.

Option 3: The saying Dax Novu was “split in two” is not being literal but metaphorical. As not only is Dax Novu being split equated with himself going crazy or becoming deranged, but the comic itself still uses the name “Novu” to refer to him after he split in two. Meaning Dax Novu post split was still Dax Novu. With only until after Novu locked himself away would he be reborn as a vampire and go by the name Mandrakk the Dark Monitor. With even the names Mandrakk and Novu being used interchangeably, proving that Mandrakk is just Dax Novu’s new name after he became a vampire.

I honestly can’t believe you two think you can just post scans out of context and not expect me to catch it.

Now what you need to do, is post evidence that Secret Files, Multiversity, and Final Crisis are all wrong or lying to us, and to post evidence that Mandrakk isn’t Dax Novu as the comics tell us, but is instead some fragmented piece of Dax Novu.

 

[Deagonx]

Or there’s the third option.

Option 3: The saying Dax Novu was “split in two” is not being literal but metaphorical

Its my fault for not considering the possibility that you would pretend it didn't actually happen at all.

Regardless, I reject that theory entirely. We have no reason to pretend Dax didn't split in two, and in both versions of his origin story that event is central.

In the Final Edition of Multiversity, it says Dax is also split in two. The first split is the flaw and the Overvoid, as previously it was Monitor only. In response to the schism the Overvoid created the Orrery to contain the flaw.

Dax split in two. The comic is quite clear on that. This split is directly equated to the schism between the flaw and perfection, or possibly Monitor and Anti-Monitor. In either case, clearly separate beings, and not something that can be denied by calling it a metaphor.

 

[Xearsay]

Once again you’re doing this thing where you quote a portion of what I’m saying and only interact with that portion while ignoring all the evidence and reasoning below it.

Its my fault for not considering the possibility that you would pretend it didn't actually happen at all.

Regardless, I reject that theory entirely. We have no reason to pretend Dax didn't split in two, and in both versions of his origin story that event is central.

Dax Novu’s origin story literally equated him splitting in two with him going crazy or becoming deranged, and still uses the name “Novu” to refer to him after he split in two. Meaning Dax Novu post split was still Dax Novu. With only until after Novu locked himself away would he be reborn as a vampire and go by the name Mandrakk the Dark Monitor.

In the Final Edition of Multiversity, it says Dax is also split in two. The first split is the flaw and the Overvoid, as previously it was Monitor only. In response to the schism the Overvoid created the Orrery to contain the flaw.

Dax split in two. The comic is quite clear on that. This split is directly equated to the schism between the flaw and perfection, or possibly Monitor and Anti-Monitor. In either case, clearly separate beings, and not something that can be denied by calling it a metaphor.

A schism is just a division between two strongly opposed sections or parties caused by differences in beliefs. And in the context of Multiversity the conflict between the two beings from Crisis on Infinite Earths, Anti Monitor and the Monitor, is the schism. Anyway, can you first post evidence to support that Dax Novu being split in two is equated with some schism of conflict between Anti Monitor and Monitor?