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No more baseline Servants

AnonymousBlank

AnonymousBlank

13,587
5,754
...... 'cept the 7-Bs. They are still baseline, just 7-A this time via the huge margin this calc grants their fodder physicals.

Seems pretty simple imo. This here calc was accepted and fits perfectly with our current stats for Servants. Shirou projects a shoddy Excalibur and kills the birthed/basically birthed Angra Mainyu while his mind is literally wiping itself and with no mana (its 3am for me so some kind souls in the comments will have to provide the scans if they are asked for). Essentially this would scale to Herc in the Fate route who smacked aside an Excaliblast from Saber.

Please no one even dare to argue that Shirou on death's door, two brain cells and no mana with a projected divine construct is stronger than Saber with the real deal and Fate levels of mana.
 
Obviously agree to this. Saber was weakened, yeah, but she wasn't literally comparable to a Shirou copying a degraded divine construct, so even more degraded than a normal NP, fueled by his mana reserves which are pretty much insignificant in comparison... not to mention he was pretty much dead mentally.
 
AnonymousBlank said:
Please no one even dare to argue that Shirou on death's door, two brain cells and no mana with a projected divine construct is stronger than Saber with the real deal and Fate levels of mana.
Click to expand...
 
I'll just copy paste relevant links for scaling

Angrya manyyu is destroyed by Shirou on the brink of death with a projected Excalibur

Shirou was so weak his mind died before he could swing the sword (his body did it automatically), also consider that this end can be reached after your fight with Kotomine in the true end route, meaning he destroyed the grail even though he was forced into a fist fight due to lack of mana

His projections are always a rank lower than the original and Excalibur in particular is a divine construct that can't be properly copied, even Archer notes that he can't replicate it fully so reason stands that his use of it during that moment was weaker than the Excaliblast Berserker deflected in this bad end
 
If you guys want to scale it to Hercules. It would have to of been at least A, or at the very least i think C+ (which can slightly exceed rank B.. i think.) rank assuming this is reffering to noble phantasm's, and is still viablely accurate. Considering that B+ rank can exceed A rank by only a little.

God Hand "Immortality granted by a blessing (curse) from the gods. It transforms the user's body into powerful armor that nullifies all attacks of Rank B and below ."

but i strongly agree with this
 
No, + doesn't mean much. A C++ attack is still Rank C, just as a Rank B noble phantasm is still Rank B as a NP even though it's stronger than a rank A normal attack.

God Hand and Armor of Fafnir use the idea of ranks and not power. So the NP's rank had to be at least Rank A. (At least logically but who knows, Nasu be drunk at times).
 
Thats confusing.. So it would have to be A rank for us to scale from???? being above the one that harmed Hercules?
 
No, its just that the fact Heracles had to deflect it means it could get past God Hand, which also means it was at least A Rank. It's not very important for this overall, just explaining about how God Hand works,
 
Funny that this happened a little shortly after that 7-B+ downgrade haha.

Question tho that I thought up: What of those like Gawain's Numeral Saint(?) multiplier and those who scale around that like Gramps or Lion King?
 
Right...

So anyways I talked with Ever about this and it seems that this may affect Gawain's Numeral Saint skill and so that would probably put him back to High 7-A like before, which will also affect Gramps and Lion King (both of whom are shown to be superior to him, or so I recall).

Edit: Scratch that, WILL affect his Numeral Saint buff. Not "may".

He also told me that NP's like Excalibur might also end up being 6-C or something but IDK if that's appropriate to talk about that yet or not.
 
We can leave that for later, yes. But this should totally affect someone like Gawain with a direct multiplier being told to us and a stark power difference accompanying it.

As for Gramps and Lion King, totally. Gramps casually played with Gawain not only with his Numeral of the Saint active, but by treating his NP like nothing while it was active. The Lion King severely hurt him with an attack and encommended him for surviving, rather than expecting him to do so, with Numer active.

Excalibur stuff should be left for another time.
 
Pretty much.

Regarding Excalibur and other NP stuff, it has to do with rankings and what we do with them from there seeing as even a C rank NP can deal A or even A+ rank STR (something that's about Heracles level STR, more or less). But yes, that's not the time for now unless more people also wants to talk about it.

I just only brought it up now as a kind of heads up or some such if anything...just for later talk.
 
Most A+ Holy Swords NPs currently scale from Caliburns ability to kill Berserker seven times over, if he is getting bumped to 610~ MTs then NPs go up to 4,270 MTs using the same scaling as before.
 
Qliphoth Bacikal said:
Which may also possibly lead back up to 6-C NP's seeing as High 7-A has a pretty small AP gap.

Nice.
Click to expand...
Another thing to keep in mind being that different types have different power. Anti-Fortress has been outright said to be Anti-Army, but if it had way more power - enough not to kill a massed army but reduce a fortress to rubble. So it's even more powerful than the ranking would designate by mere nature of the NP Types.
 
@LSirLancelot: Is that really the case?

Far as I'm aware, Anti-Army is Anti-Unit but with AOE. Like Cu's two Gae Bolg functions, one used for a single target, other used for a large number of enemies.

Anti-Fortress sounds like it's in a league of its own if we go by just those three classifications alone.

Edit: Granted the three classifications has been pretty weird these days with Anti-Unit NP's being able to affect multiple people but in a normal NP case is what I was trying to talk about there. Unless I am missing something about Anti-Fortresses then I'd like to hear more of that then.
 
Rin's straight explanation about it would make us think it's exactly that. Anti-Unit isn't as powerful (usually, we always have exceptions) but it's still an NP and uses less Mana, so like a gun. Anti-Army is not only more powerful, but can hurt more than one enemy and is harder to seal with due to AoE, but costs more to use, so like a missile.

This doesn't take into account NPs like thrusting Gae Bolg, because the rank of those doesn't really showcase it's power since it works in special ways beyond dealing pure destructive damage.

And I would say it's not a super strict thing, it depends the mechanics of the NP. Arjuna's Pashupata is a special case since it looks like a bomb, but the NP is judging each individual person in it's range to deliver Moshka to them, hence Anti-Unit. Unlikely as it could be, you could have a bunch of normal people survive Moshka due to how it works, but none of those people is gonna survive Thrown Gae Bolg because it's an indiscriminate explosion that just deals damage. At the end of the ray, these are more guidelines than hard rules because of NPs natures allowing for very peculiar ones. But something like Thrown Gae Bolg just deals a lot of damage, and Excalibur only deals a lot of damage, so the power hierarchy by types should apply without issue.
 
I am aware of that, yes.

True on the thrusting ver of Gae Bolg, but it's still Anti-Unit last I checked. And I was mentioning that in relation to how Gae Bolg can be used for either single target uses, with the trust ver, or against a number of enemies with the thrown ver. Whether that is through pure power or not.

That too with the rest of the stuff, especially since how NP's functions have gotten a lot more variatable since FSN.

Well anyways in actual relation to this thread, Everlasting put up this to show that what might be what we'll be looking at in terms of the changes that will affect everything, from 7-B's becoming Baseline 7-A to NP's:

"7-A: D/C/B rank STR Servants and E/D rank NPs.

7-A+: A rank STR Servants and C/B/A rank NPs.

High 7-A: NOTS Gawain, three tailed Tamamo, King Hassan and Lion King.

6-C: A+ rank NPs."

Additionally, Tamamo with 3 tails might also become 6-C since she's apparently as strong as 7 A-rank Servants.

Any thoughts to this if this is what everyone has in mind or thinking about similarly? @All
 
Agreed with it.

The Tamamo thing comes from her being compared to an A Rank Hero, with the A Rank Hero being a 100 while she would be a 9 while having one tail. Each new tail, then, would multiply her power by about 9. So 9 to the cube, about 729?

Regardless, this and other scaling stuff makes sense.
 
"But wouldn't that still be 7x A Rank?"

-Everlasting on that thought for Tamamo.

@Upgrade: A++ STR Servants, which is really just Avenger (Gorgon) and Berserker (Asterios), are like at least 7-A so with this new change up they would be like at least 7-A+ or some such.

A more proper answer is IDEK what for A+++ STR and NP's...cuz we don't have any NP's that go that high yet cuz the highest outside of EX (cuz it's pretty bogus) is A++, something we have for NP's like Excalibur to scale to.

A++ Strength can be at least 7-A+, and A+ would just a higher rating that we can use by scaling to Hercs who has such a rating as do several others like Penth.

A+ NP's are, as Everlasting made out, will be 6-C.
 
Yeah, I was just straightening out the logic that makes Tamamo 7x A Rank in case anyone asks where that comes from, but I agree.

As for the A++ and stuff like that, it really doesn't matter. Either they have their own feats above 7-A+ if there's anything like that, or we purely class them at At least 7-A+ for being above the likes of Berserk.

NPs are another issue entirely, but if we really want to accept the C Rank NP being comparable to an A/A+ Rank normal attack, that sets a level of power for lower level NPs (at least the ones that use destructive power and not some special hax like thrust Gae Bolg).
 
"They can kill Herc seven times over which results in 4.27 gigatons, and at that point they'd just be baseline 6-C."

What Ever explained for A+ NPs becoming 6-C being. I think this is in scaling from Shirou's projected Caliburn, which did the above job in the VN.
 
Probably since this is, yet again, gonna be affecting the Servants and NP's again.

Perhaps ask anyone familiar with Fate from the staff, like Monarch or something.
 
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