Nasuverse: Word of God Removal Removal (heh)

[HammerStrikes219]

maybe I have shit memory, but I remember you being one of the ones approving the removal

Wasn’t really meant to be a call out,more like “why did no one else before me question any of this lmao”

https://vsbattles.com/threads/nasuverse-word-of-god-scaling-removal.165642/post-6419635

 

[KingNanaya]

“Can’t quite hold a candle” doesn’t exactly mean “no chance”, just a lower one than the other characters on this. Which makes sense,because although he may measure up in speed, he doesn’t in durability and attack power, which is made clear through tsukihime.

contradicted by the profiles themselves

Got overpowered by Azaka, and got bruised.

citation please

Would have took 3 seconds to move 10 meters.

didn't ryougi dodge an explosion point blank?

Extra ryougi got summoned by something similar to a Holy Grail, so she may have been buffed for her appearance

prove this

We don’t know a single thing about the “99 servants”

we know that they're servants

I made an entire thread about it

thread wasn't accepted

7.

The trump card is referring to MEODP

It's not a trump card, it's his main offensive ability.

“the JP for that statement (arc's) can actually mean (highest level, or highest rank) of power, not specifically the strongest, which is also problematic if you think about it, nothing should be on the same level as the supposed root personified.”

this doesn't tackle the argument. you're shifting away from the actual issue.

All credible Type-Moon translators agree with this as well, so…

ok, and?

Right now, I'm in disagree. when I get more time, I'll look though other posts and stuff.

 

[Wankbreaker]

contradicted by the profiles themselves

By profiles, do you mean the VSB profiles? Or material profiles. Since this is an argument about Nasu contradicting his own narrative, the narrative triumphs over the profiles…. And the narrative, as per red demon god, says the Nanaya excel in assasination, but are far inferior in direct combat.

Also, the current tsuki profiles use WOG to scale them to servants. Without WOG (like the profiles should have been edited to be, but it seems this revision was poorly planned), Tsuki will be dropped below servants anyway.

citation please

Muttering those words in a chilling voice, she lunged at me. Stuck on the bed, I couldn't dodge her sudden attack. We ended up tangled together, crashing onto the mattress. In the end, Azaka managed to pry the knife away from me. Despite her cute looks, she was easily enraged. When she got really mad, she would go ballistic, like a wounded bear. Judging that words and counterattacks were pointless against this beast, I reluctantly handed over one of my hidden knives to end the silly scuffle. Azaka took the knife and walked over to her desk. I, on the other hand, remained lying on the bed. "You muscle head... Look at my arm, it's covered in bruises. What do you even eat?"

Regardless what you think of the former, it’s evident Azaka bruised her.

didn't ryougi dodge an explosion point blank?

Which is ???, considering Araya’s best speed feat is bullet timing, and he blitzed her. Still far below servants,though.

prove this

2:25, Taiga also explicitly summons her with a grail like device,though that section isn’t covered in the video.

we know that they're servants

which again, says nothing. They could be shittier than Mata Hari or whatever, which is likely, as one tailed tamamo beat her.

thread wasn't accepted

im fully aware,just hand waving it as “lol everyone knows ryougi is god and therefore statement is contradictory
”
is obviously false,though

What manga is this?
A “shoddily made imitation”, doesn’t confirm its excalibur, and not a hyper convincing lower ranked replica,though…which is what Nasu said he could do.

Does Archer use Excalibur’s TNR in this manga? If no, it isn’t excalibur,but an imperfect replica.

It's not a trump card, it's his main offensive ability.

a valuable resource that may be used, especially as a surprise, in order to gain an advantage.

…aka a trump card. It’s his most powerful resource available to him.

this doesn't tackle the argument. you're shifting away from the actual issue.

“At the highest level of power” is far different from “the strongest”. The issue was inflated.

ok, and?

Right now, I'm in disagree. when I get more time, I'll look though other posts and stuff.

 

[KingNanaya]

By profiles, do you mean the VSB profiles?

yes

Since this is an argument about Nasu contradicting his own narrative, the narrative triumphs over the profiles….

I'm going to use a really absurd example right now fro the sake of the argument.

lets say an author says it takes a super massive black hole 5 weeks to destroy/consume a planet within its event horizon, even though this goes against actual science. Do we ignore the fact of the situation, or do we just say "well, the author has to be right". The point I'm trying to make is that we rarely consider author intent to be more important than the feats we are able to index. Not that we ignore it completely, but that we have to look at the facts that we can see when the author is contradicted.

Which is ???

I didn't calc it. it's way faster than 10 meters in 3 seconds though

considering Araya’s best speed feat is bullet timing, and he blitzed her.

I didn't mention him. please focus on what I'm saying.

2:25

this doesn't prove that she was buffed. I asked for you to send proof that she was buffed.

What manga is this?

no clue. you'd have to ask @ShadowWhoWalks since he sent it in the other thread. I just copied and pasted it.

…aka a trump card. It’s his most powerful resource available to him.

it's his only resource. it's the only thing he uses.

“At the highest level of power” is far different from “the strongest”

not in this context, no. they reach the same contradiction.

 

[Wankbreaker]

By profiles, do you mean the VSB profiles? Or material profiles. Since this is an argument about Nasu contradicting his own narrative, the narrative triumphs over the profiles…. And the narrative, as per red demon god, says the Nanaya excel in assasination, but are far inferior in direct combat.

Also, the current tsuki profiles use WOG to scale them to servants. Without WOG (like the profiles should have been edited to be, but it seems this revision was poorly planned), Tsuki will be dropped below servants anyway.

To further back this up: Shiki is consistently referred to as lower in “scale” and “power” than actual supernatural creatures.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

To further back this up: Shiki is consistently referred to as lower in “scale” and “power” than actual supernatural creatures.

OG Tsukihime been like. Did you check out Tsukihime remake while we are at this?

 

[Fezzih_007]

What manga is this?

Is from Fate/Grand Order: Château d'If Kousuke Kurose Works

 

[Wankbreaker]

yes

contradicted by the profiles..... that use WOG scaling?

I'm going to use a really absurd example right now fro the sake of the argument.

lets say an author says it takes a super massive black hole 5 weeks to destroy/consume a planet within its event horizon, even though this goes against actual science. Do we ignore the fact of the situation, or do we just say "well, the author has to be right". The point I'm trying to make is that we rarely consider author intent to be more important than the feats we are able to index. Not that we ignore it completely, but that we have to look at the facts that we can see when the author is contradicted.

yea, this situation isnt similar at all, because this is actually supported by the works themselves. Shiki isnt some god that can equally match DAAs in a fist fight.

I didn't calc it. it's way faster than 10 meters in 3 seconds though

I didn't mention him. please focus on what I'm saying.

this doesn't prove that she was buffed. I asked for you to send proof that she was buffed.

A massive outlier compared to any of her KNK feats (including with self suggestion/void)... and she's summoned by a grail like device. Archer says she may be connected to the mooncell grail war, while tamamo says she may be connected to the far side of the moon. I think it's obvious.



Ryougi with a sword is "sword saint level". Guess what they can do? "fight defensively" against a servant.

Nasu: But, as you know, Fate/'s roots come from Yamada Fuutarou's novels, and because of that, I'd like to believe that a real swordmaster or a Sword Saint could hold their ground against Servants.

Sakurai: True! I do remember Nasu telling me about how absurd the real Sword Saints were back when I was composing the lore for the Heroic Spirit Swordmasters.

Nasu: To no one's surprise, a regular swordmaster doesn't know any tricks to cut anything spiritual. Even if they could withstand a spiritual being's attack, they still can't fight without being able to attack. But when someone reaches the level of Sword Saint, yeah, I could see them cutting a soul. Which means they could give Servants a good run for their money.

no clue. you'd have to ask @ShadowWhoWalks since he sent it in the other thread. I just copied and pasted it.

it's his only resource. it's the only thing he uses.

He has the Nanaya arts. Still doesnt counter anything. In tsukihime he relied on his MEODP a lot. Thats what the statement is talking about (which is objectively true)

not in this context, no. they reach the same contradiction.

How?

 

[HammerStrikes219]

contradicted by the profiles..... that use WOG scaling?

More accurately said, the profiles are literally cross scaling from the loose continuity and treats all works as being canonical to one another unironically there.

 

[Wankbreaker]

More accurately said, the profiles are literally cross scaling from the loose continuity and treats all works as being canonical to one another unironically there.

They are canonical to one another. But without WOG, theres nothing scaling DAAs to servants. The original thread wasn't planned out well clearly, as its been over 6 months and these profiles havent been changed.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

They are canonical to one another. But without WOG, theres nothing scaling DAAs to servants. The original thread wasn't planned out well clearly, as its been over 6 months and these profiles havent been changed.

Yeah, I have a funny suspicion that wasn’t fully fleshed out given the fact the profiles don’t give much details about their feats from those respective individual works.


Funny how this occur since earlier this year

 

[KingNanaya]

contradicted by the profiles..... that use WOG scaling?

I don't see any Nasu statements used in the justifications for the profiles I've looked at recently. Which profiles are you referring to that have Nasu's statements as justifications for scaling?

How?

You're making the assertion that Arcueid is at the "Highest level of power" yet ORT is "The strongest"

But without WOG, theres nothing scaling DAAs to servants

Pretty sure most of the scaling to servants comes from melty blood

the profiles don’t give much details about their feats from those respective individual works.

Which profiles are like this?

 

[HammerStrikes219]

I don't see any Nasu statements used in the justifications for the profiles I've looked at recently. Which profiles are you referring to that have Nasu's statements as justifications for scaling?

You're making the assertion that Arcueid is at the "Highest level of power" yet ORT is "The strongest"

Pretty sure most of the scaling to servants comes from melty blood

Which profiles are like this?

Ryougi’s feats, for once, never been brought up from the work she originated from.

Not to mention some other things.

Either way, not all Melty Bloody characters are servants though so not sure about that.

Ryougi with a sword is "sword saint level". Guess what they can do? "fight defensively" against a servant.

Ryougi being in Fate Extra was interesting to watch though

 

[Wankbreaker]

I don't see any Nasu statements used in the justifications for the profiles I've looked at recently. Which profiles are you referring to that have Nasu's statements as justifications for scaling?

Arcueid:

Attack Potency: Large Island level+ (Stated to be able to win against a Servant, easily dispatched Roa in Ciel's body, created a huge crater)

Ciel:

Large Island level+ (She possesses magical power that is the closest to Roa in his prime among all his bodies and can fight against Servants, but is outmatched by Caster)

you get the idea.

You're making the assertion that Arcueid is at the "Highest level of power" yet ORT is "The strongest"

to put this into perspective.

EOS Ichigo, Yhwach, Aizen and Prime Soul king are at the highest level of power in bleach.
There can only be one "strongest"
though ORTS thing only says that its "Worthy" of being called this

Pretty sure most of the scaling to servants comes from melty blood

nope

Which profiles are like this?

all of them (lol)

 

[Wankbreaker]

Either way, not all Melty Bloody characters are servants though so not sure about that.

none of them are pre lumina

 

[HammerStrikes219]

none of them are pre lumina

Yeah, I thought as much.

Man, what a mess here.

to put this into perspective.

EOS Ichigo, Yhwach, Aizen and Prime Soul king are at the highest level of power in bleach.
There can only be one "strongest"
though ORTS thing only says that its "Worthy" of being called this

I remember a particular WOG statement regarding Remake Arcuied being the strongest in her own work or something IIRC so there is that. I have to look into as no one, at all, have done the daunting task to cite the damn WOG statements being used to say the least

 

[KingNanaya]

Attack Potency: Large Island level+ (Stated to be able to win against a Servant, easily dispatched Roa in Ciel's body, created a huge crater)

this could be removed from the profile in the next 30 seconds and nothing would change, since she already has a calc putting her at servant level

Large Island level+ (She possesses magical power that is the closest to Roa in his prime among all his bodies and can fight against Servants, but is outmatched by Caster)

same with this

nope

incredible rebuttal

Ryougi’s feats, for once, never been brought up from the work she originated from.

Shiki can cut down anything regardless of its durability by tracing its Lines of Death with an edged weapon, even slicing apart concepts and abstract abilities like Fujino Asagami's telekinesis

(Her self-suggestion unlocks her true potential only while she's wielding a sword

he 500-Year Mystery of her family's katana, Kanesada Kuji, can slice apart barriers and Bounded Fields simply by removing it from the sheath

When wielding her katana she becomes able to see the future, allowing her to predict her opponent's actions

Dodged an explosion at close range

While severely injured and near death, she blitzed Souren Araya, who described her speed as "god-like" and as making him perceive time as stopped and even rewound. He also admitted that if it weren't for his bounded fields slowing down her movements, she would have killed him instantly with her first slash

Can fight for extended periods without any signs of fatigue, she also has incredible pain tolerance, being unfazed even after getting her arm twisted at such unnatural angles that it needed to be amputated. When using her self suggestion, she is even capable of fighting with several ribs and organs damaged, coughing up blood after each movement)

Do I need to send more? A pretty substantial percent of her profile are her own feats from her own series, and even more parts of her profile are things that she's done herself in other series. Are there any other profiles that you feel don't have many justifications from their series of origin?

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Do I need to send more? A pretty substantial percent of her profile are her own feats from her own series, and even more parts of her profile are things that she's done herself in other series. Are there any other profiles that you feel don't have many justifications from their series of origin?

Hmm, fair enough. However, none of them are cited and references since these profiles was made before they made references and citations a thing.

References

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Also now I think about it, did no one wanted to do the references at all?

 

[KingNanaya]

Hmm, fair enough. However, none of them are cited and references since these profiles was made before they made references and citations a thing.

References

References is a section in character profiles where the source references can be shown. They should be used whenever and wherever possible to increase the reliability of the information presented in the pages and to improve the overall quality of this wiki. To use them, switch to the source...

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Yeah, the reference situation for the Nasu profiles is abysmal right now. I can't exactly argue with that.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Yeah, the reference situation for the Nasu profiles is abysmal right now. I can't exactly argue with that.

And that is exactly what got us into this situation and without further context to add to it make my OCD boil on the things that should make easier to find.

Don’t get me wrong. Everyone has their irl priorities to deal with, myself included, but at least devote a portion of their free time to do some form of references like a Google Doc or a iOS Notes, then take it slowly from there.


Otherwise, this situation in relation to the WOG statements does ultimately comes down to context and when they were made as people tend to forget the statements ain’t in the same time period as the rest.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

On second thought, I think I switch to neutral until both sides provided sufficient counter arguments, but I will voice my grievances on the references being crappy on the profiles.


Then I will change my vote after both sides actually brought up some evidence with their own words/interpretations of the evidence provided

 

[Wankbreaker]

this could be removed from the profile in the next 30 seconds and nothing would change, since she already has a calc putting her at servant level

Island level, not Large Island Level+ like even the weakest of servants scale to on their profiles.

Also, this is an arc without bloodlust (meaning she isnt limited to merely 70% like post-roa), with her hair and powers completely intact. so.....yea, doesnt scale to the arc of tsukihime whatsoever.

same with this

What calcs does ciel have.

incredible rebuttal

I said nope because they back scale to certain tsukihime characters..... which use nasu WOG as their justification. There's like literally nothing linking melty to fate scaling wise if we take WOG out

 

[HammerStrikes219]

I said nope because they back scale to certain tsukihime characters..... which use nasu WOG as their justification

Yeah, that part admittedly confused me as the only reason for the listed justification against servants specifically is WOG.

Ciel:

Large Island level+ (She possesses magical power that is the closest to Roa in his prime among all his bodies and can fight against Servants, but is outmatched by Caster)

“
: In the other Type-Moon works, who else besides Arc can fight against Servants?

A: If we're working on the condition of one on one, with an extremely average Noble Phantasm. Generally most of the 27 Ancestors, Kishima Kouma, Aozaki Aoko.
If it's just a defensive fight, but would still be a fight, then Ciel. Shiki (Rakkyo), Shiki (Tsukihime) are no match for Servants....but Ryougi Shiki (3rd personality) might be able to go as far as the Ciel class.”


There is no ifs or buts about this. Also I don’t get the Caster part unless… stated by Nasu as well.

This completely defeats “Dropping Nasu’s WOG for powerscaling” if it is still used in the profiles.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

“

Comptiq special issue - Fate Dojo special edition: Q: If Caster and Ciel went full out on magic and fought each other, who would win?
Q: If Caster and Ciel went full out on magic and fought each other, who would win? A: That'd be Caster. A lot's been said, but see, she's a witch from the divine era, something that shouldn't be in the present. If it was a competition against human opponents, then Caster would present the most horrifying and greatest results among the HF 5 Servants..... Though, if Ciel got her hands on what lies within the deepest parts of the Evocationary area of the Association and sends the Seventh Scripture in her, things will be different.

Here we go.

 

[Wankbreaker]

“

Comptiq special issue - Fate Dojo special edition: Q: If Caster and Ciel went full out on magic and fought each other, who would win?
Q: If Caster and Ciel went full out on magic and fought each other, who would win? A: That'd be Caster. A lot's been said, but see, she's a witch from the divine era, something that shouldn't be in the present. If it was a competition against human opponents, then Caster would present the most horrifying and greatest results among the HF 5 Servants..... Though, if Ciel got her hands on what lies within the deepest parts of the Evocationary area of the Association and sends the Seventh Scripture in her, things will be different.

Here we go.

yea, that seems to be a compatibility thing, since the WOG statement says Caster would produce the best results among the 5 servants in HF

Caster classes are weaker against servants because most of them have high magic resistance.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

yea, that seems to be a compatibility thing, since the WOG statement says Caster would produce the best results among the 5 servants in HF

Caster classes are weaker against servants because most of them have high magic resistance.

Also it is from a old Magazine series from what I can find here.

I say we should use Melty Bloody Type Lumina assuming it has lore used there.

That part, I will been fine with, at least, the rest will have to undergo some further scrutiny here tbh

 

[Wankbreaker]

Also it is from a old Magazine series from what I can find here.

I say we should use Melty Bloody Type Lumina assuming it has lore used there.

That part, I will been fine with, at least, the rest will have to undergo some further scrutiny here tbh

Melty Blood type lumina would scale to the remake tsukihime (which dont have profiles other than neco-arc for some reaon), not the OG
not because of "seperate canons", but there isn't any connections to the OG

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Melty Blood type lumina would scale to the remake tsukihime (which dont have profiles other than neco-arc for some reaon), not the OG
not because of "seperate canons", but there isn't any connections to the OG

True as Type Lumina involves the Tsukihime remake characters there.

 

[Wankbreaker]

I'll mention the original poster of the other thread, @Violatas

 

[KingNanaya]

Island level, not Large Island Level+ like even the weakest of servants scale to on their profiles.

if every servant scaled to their own individual feat, they'd be anywhere from tier 8-tier 6, with most servant's individual feats being near tier 7

There's like literally nothing linking melty to fate scaling wise if we take WOG out

I heard there were plans to (significantly) downscale melty characters from the moon drop calc. the statements aren't even needed for them to have servant stats (pretty sure they would be higher than servants at that point, since most servants are high 6-C and rel+).

 

[Wankbreaker]

if every servant scaled to their own individual feat, they'd be anywhere from tier 8-tier 6, with most servant's individual feats being near tier 7

sounds like a far better scaling chain, imo

Still, that is arcueid operating at 100%, and thus scales to no one but her.

I heard there were plans to (significantly) downscale melty characters from the moon drop calc. the statements aren't even needed for them to have servant stats (pretty sure they would be higher than servants at that point, since most servants are high 6-C and rel+).

Are you talking about the melty manga? The size of the "moon drop" in that isnt even the size of the real moon, as it fits on the panel in relation to the millenium castle.
the one Type Moon is able to do is completely different.

We are NOT making melty blood characters prime zelretch tier. ( or at least I will oppose it heavily.)

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Are you talking about the melty manga? The size of the "moon drop" in that isnt even the size of the real moon, as it fits on the panel in relation to the millenium castle.

Apparently it is the Arc’s moondrop calc is what has been referring to. However, it was the link for it is currently unavailable to say the least.

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[KingNanaya]

Are you talking about the melty manga?

yes

We are NOT making melty blood characters prime zelretch tier. ( or at least I will oppose it heavily.)

that wasn't my suggestion

The size of the "moon drop" in that isnt even the size of the real moon, as it fits on the panel in relation to the millenium castle.

pretty sure the calc would still be somewhere in tier 6 regardless.

However, it was the link for it is currently unavailable to say the least.

yeah. I could calc it after I eat lunch

 

[Wankbreaker]

yes

that wasn't my suggestion

pretty sure the calc would still be somewhere in tier 6 regardless.

you have to account for surface area, and the starting height of the "moon"

the millenium castle should be around the size of a real castle anyway. Or, a "small village" in size.

the "moon" seems to be smaller than a mountain, so i doubt it'll be tier 6 though.

This will be the final question. Honestly, how "strong" is Arcueid? To what degree can she utilize her Marble Phantasm ability?

Nasu: If Arc takes off her limiter, she can probably materialize an entire small village in the mountains. But in modern towns that have been built up thanks to the work of many people, she has to destroy in order to create.

yeah. I could calc it after I eat lunch

 

[KingNanaya]

you have to account for surface area, and the starting height of the "moon"

It should be fine if I use the moon size from carnival phantasm, right?

 

[Wankbreaker]

It should be fine if I use the moon size from carnival phantasm, right?

maybe?

But doesnt the melty manga already give you an idea of how big the size is?

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

I’ve seen these arguments used as an excuse to pass around some pretty outrageous takes as fact (like base ryougi beating archetype Earth), so I’m getting rid of them. I feel like the OP of the OG also left a lot of context out, or straight up misinterpreted the scans.

1. (The shikis have no chance against servants). The actual text doesn’t say “no chance”,but closer to this:




“Can’t quite hold a candle” doesn’t exactly mean “no chance”, just a lower one than the other characters on this. Which makes sense,because although he may measure up in speed, he doesn’t in durability and attack power, which is made clear through tsukihime. The Nanaya are the best of the best when it comes to assasination,but their physical prowess in direct combat lags far behind. This is a major plot point in Red Demon God.

Nero Chaos wanted to “eat him slowly”, which Arc comments on him not going for the kill instantly was the reason for his loss. Melty blood shiki fights a weakened copy of Nero from Tsukihime, and still struggles extremely. (All versions of Nero in melty are weakened, btw. Actress Again recreates the conditions of the OG melty’s TATARI perfectly, where Nero was weakened, so same applies here.)

Shiki-Roa is also considered far weaker than a full DAA in strength here. (By full power, arc obviously means her full power at 30%, before we get A:E level Nero agenda)
"Well, he should be many times superior than The Dead earlier. I haven't met him this time, but he has been latent for eight years so maybe he's a Class Five by now."

"---You're saying he's stronger than The Dead before?"
Looking like she was in so much pain from fighting just him, isn't she taking him a little lightly?
"―― Class Five? I don't get it, but does that mean he's stronger than Nrvnqsr?"
"Not a chance. Nrvnqsr was special. He was a pure, supreme vampire that would be difficult to defeat even with my full power. Compared to him, this enemy is pretty weak."
"----Oh. Then there's no way you'll be defeated."
I breathe out in relief.-
Tsukihime

Ryougi being = to a servant directly is also shaky considering she:

Extra ryougi got summoned by something similar to a Holy Grail, so she may have been buffed for her appearance, disregarding the fact that she loses to each playable servant in the game,which includes Tamamo no Mae, who is about 10x weaker than an A-rank servant. You know who is an a-rank servant? Elizabeth Bathory. It’s consistent through the game that she is very frail, and could be one shot by Lu Bu, iirc.
We don’t know a single thing about the “99 servants” she fought, they could have had an NP weaker than thrown Gae Bolg, which is the upper end of the “average” NPs nasu was talking about.

2. void shiki defensive against servants lol.
Yea, this isn’t contradicted, I made an entire thread about it, but I’ll just repeat some of what is argued there+ some additional info.
Her statements about “being the root” itself use a high degree of uncertainity and based on her question, being “The part and the whole of nothingness are the same,right?” Unless we want to call ether lumps ( a common substance in magecraft), the 3 characters who share her origin, and Manaka the root, it’s best to stay consistent.

She calls arc manifesting her millennium castle impressive (in the context of denying that she has god-like powers, in the sense of “But look at what she can do!”), even saying that she must have no limits. From Ryougi and Artoria's perspectives, it might seem she doesn’t, asserting her superiority over both characters. Given a weaker character may view a markedly stronger one as almost without limits. (This is a casual 30% arc feat). I’ll move on from this, since this isn’t supposed to be “look how op arc is lol”, and “if she calls this impressive compared to her own supposed reality warping, how strong is it really?”



In the KNK manga, we get additional context proving that a personality switch to Void happened when she used self suggestion. First, I’ll send the scans from the original novel and additional side material.

A more literal translation:

It’s stated many times during the epilogue that Void, unlike the other 2 personalities, technically is not Shiki at all.

“Shiki” is also regarded as a vessel/container (器),regarding voids nature as the “vessel” or “empty container/box”
She also exhibits feminine behavior, while Ryougi is noted to act much more masculine after the death of SHIKI. This fact is further proven in the manga, as she gets additional lines, and the way she speaks is feminine, and not like her normal masculine speech at all, which is an integral part of Ryougis character. Araya even says “So we finally meet”,which wouldn’t make sense if this was the same personality as before.
One of Voids skills (Skills are given based on what fits the characters actions and lore, and even has short lore info at times based on the character), literally references this scene here:


See this as well:


Dictionary definition for a “flat personality”:


Yea, this fits Void to a tee. How is this relevant you may ask? Well, besides amping her physicals heavily, the only new “ability” that she obtained was precognition. (Void’s nigh-omniscience made combat applicable, basically.) none of that supposed reality warping here. She also gets injured by arayas attacks, which are hyped to “shatter concrete” and “fell trees”
What does this mean? One of 2 things.
Void’s supposed “reality warping” is either not combat applicable/not at the scale where it would be super relevant for combat, or she doesn’t have such abilities at all.

In FGO even, she says “nothing could be done against primate murder”, and said she would “have to fight like her life depended on it” against shadow servant Dantes. She was not nerfed,because she straight up denies being a heroic spirit, and “Psuedo-Servants” use the body of the host as a container, instead of a traditional container. Why is this relevant? The host is just Ryougi, and Void Shiki is literally just Ryougis body. This is like saying taking yourself as a vessel nerfs you. It makes no sense.
That should be enough for this point, the rest should be easy to counter.

3. Contradictory “the strongest” statements.
I’ll just paste what I said on discord. I’m not even sure how this one in particular wasnt looked at through a watchful eye, as @Qliphoth_Backal was present.

“the JP for that statement (arc's) can actually mean (highest level, or highest rank) of power, not specifically the strongest, which is also problematic if you think about it, nothing should be on the same level as the supposed root personified.”

All credible Type-Moon translators agree with this as well, so…

4. ….
Again, im not sure HOW this wasnt looked at with more scrutiny. Aoko’s title of “Miss Blue” does not have a direct correlation to when she gained magic, thats never said. Aoko actually gained the access rights to the Fifth before Mahoyo, with the narration calling her the newest magician even during the flat snark fight. Yet the title she gained later “Miss Blue”, is never mentioned in the story. (or even in Mahoyo materials).

5. Yea, I agree this seems kinda contradictory… but the OP misframed this statement. The 2 statements that the OP linked come from the exact same source, but the one where Nasu tells you to ask Urobuchi literally comes right before this statement. This is intentionally putting a questionable/outlandish statement in order to reinforce his earlier point. But regardless, CS can buff servants to operate far beyond their usual capabilities, a similar boost is probable.

6. The statement doesnt say Shiki will die, just ignoring the drawbacks that they would both have from displaying their abilities (MEODP and Tracing), at full power.



Also, shirou doesnt just trace the NP’s themselves, but all the history that comes with it… INCLUDING the stats and skills of the original wielder, thats why he can use Nine lives. It’s not just “killing the NPs.” Shiki did not kill Gaia, he killed the leylines for a bit. Thats how Arc gets her back up. Approaching true chaos is vague here, as it did not yet reach this state, so we dont know how susceptible to death it is.


7. Archer would be projecting only what he calls a "very convincing replica" that would consume all of his magical energy in a suicide attack. He wouldn't be projecting Excalibur, just something that looks like Excalibur and explodes the same way. Same with shirou. Thats why he doesnt say he is projecting “Excalibur”, but a “holy sword”. It has many of the same properties, but it is NOT meant to be confused with the actual weapon. Which is in line with:
There might be some degraded NPs with similar performance in stock though.

8. The trump card is referring to MEODP. In MB he’s “buffed” in the sense that he got a general stat increase. In most of his fights, he struggled pretty damn hard.
Ciel Route shiki is amped by having the added stats of a Dead Apostle, but he still struggled.
Ciel also secretly did not want to kill Tohno at all.
Melty Blood Tohno still couldn't defeat Ciel even with Sion and Akiha's help. Nero was also explicitly “playing with his food”, with Arc citing that as the reason for his loss.
I think you get the point by now.

9. Saber Alter isn’t even supposed to exist in a normal grail war, only being created via the unique conditions of HF. Makes complete sense for nasu to exclude her from the 1st statement.

Nasu is also obviously referring to living Artoria.

TLDR: mix of shitty translation and lack of context, a lot of these “issues” can be solved with a bit more contextual information. Either way, im not sure why Nasu gets the special treatment besides the usual of “If it contradicts itself, throw it out, otherwise its fine”.

I'm going to be honest, what are you trying to respond to? Maybe it's just me, but I feel like the op is not organized very well.

 

[Fezzih_007]

I'm going to be honest, what are you trying to respond to? Maybe it's just me, but I feel like the op is not organized very well.

He trying to respond to this thread
https://vsbattles.com/threads/nasuverse-word-of-god-scaling-removal.165642/

With all the following points, but he din't put the points he trying to debunk in this thread.

 

[Wankbreaker]

He trying to respond to this thread
https://vsbattles.com/threads/nasuverse-word-of-god-scaling-removal.165642/

With all the following points, but he din't put the points he trying to debunk in this thread.

i forgor

i added the OG thread in the start of the OP now

honestly, I dont think theres anything left to say regarding these statements, its clear context was missing

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

Melty Blood type lumina would scale to the remake tsukihime (which dont have profiles other than neco-arc for some reaon), not the OG
not because of "seperate canons", but there isn't any connections to the OG

Neco-Arc is a thing.

Granted, Dead Apostle Ancestor tiering has to be changed at some point since there's stuff scaling them to top tiers like Divine Spirits (with that being said, there's also stuff scaling normal Servants to Divine Spirits).