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Above-All-Others and The One Above All

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Elizio33

Elizio33

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The Above All Others is really the same entity as the One Above All? It has been stated that [https://m.imgur.com/a/zeIeIAP TOAA is a gestalt entity made up of every Marvel Creator/Editor/Reader and TOAA is outside and above Marvel. And the Above All Others is a marvel character. So, should we create a profile for Above All Others?
 
I think it would be better to create a profile for Above All Others because it is possible that OAA is an avatar or aspects of TOAA. Like Chaos King and Oblivion.
 
I can create a profile for Above All Others if you want.
 
Well, you should ask Matthew to comment here first, and we would have to move some images and sentences from TOAA profile.
 
Few problems with this theory.

1. The writer is technically never called the One Above All or the Above All Others, in that case he (the writer) should be called God.

2. The One Who Is Above All, The One Above All and Above All Others in Starlin's stories are clearly the same being. With no implications of limited avatars or manifestations.

3. It's better to wait for Infinity Ending to see how this turns out (after all the Living Tribunal speculated of a power greater than the One Above All) before we turn the One Above All's page to a fanfi article.
 
The OAA has technically been stated to be an amalgam of all Marvel writers and readers lately, first when being portrayed as Jack Kirby in a Fantastic Four story, then unofficially by Al Ewing, then in a semi-official guidebook, then in a recent Deadpool story when "God" was shown to be a writer with a pencil.

The problem is that currently the Above-All-Others explicitly stated that it was unable to stop Thanos from destabilising the universe by absorbing all of the cosmic entities within it, and seems to be Thanos' end goal, after absorbing all the power in the rest of the Marvel multiverse, although the last part is speculation on my part. These are not the traits of a tier 0 character.
 
Antvasima said:
The OAA has technically been stated to be an amalgam of all Marvel writers and readers lately, first when being portrayed as Jack Kirby in a Fantastic Four story, then unofficially by Al Ewing, then in a semi-official guidebook, then in a recent Deadpool story when "God" was shown to be a writer with a pencil.
The problem is that currently the Above-All-Others explicitly stated that it was unable to stop Thanos from destabilising the universe by absorbing all of the cosmic entities within it, and seems to be Thanos' end goal, after absorbing all the power in the rest of the Marvel multiverse, although the last part is speculation on my part. These are not the traits of a tier 0 character.
Click to expand...
But in the FF story he was never called TOAA. He was called God. Wouldn't that be a better name? Or maybe the Writer?

I mean we already have a Celestial called TOAA, and AAO (who is not distinguished from TOAA in canon) is stoll called TOAA on pretty much every VS Forum.

I'd still wait for Infinity Ending to come out, who knows, maybe the the power greater than TOAA the LT talked about will turn out to be the Writer (and if that's the case he likely won't be called TOAA)
 
I suppose that waiting may be the best option. We are just being impatient due to how long time there is between the releases.
 
@San

The writer has been called The One Above All in recent comics and guidebook.

And no above all is just supreme being in universe while the one above all is the writer who created all stories
 
The Tetromino King said:
1AdTqxj
@San this already makes the one from fantastic four already TOAA
TOAA and AAO doesn't share any similarity other than being supreme
Click to expand...
The Above-all-Others is the One Above All. Ever since he was first mentioned TOAA (as I will call him from now on) was defined as the Living Tribunal's master, this was TOAA's one defining trait as mentioned in Infinity War #2 (1992) and later in Warlock Chronicles #2 (1993). And in Infinity Finale we learned that it was only the Living Tribunal who was able to access an audience with the one he served, TOAA.

Granted, Thanos did refer to TOAA as the author of all there will be but it was moreso in a figurative sense, because he suggested that he had ursurped that role.

That isn't to deligitamize any other writer's interpretation of what TOAA is, if Chris Hastings like to think of it as Jack Kirby (who wasn't a writer btw) that's perfectly fine. But ultimately it's like two different writers interpretation of Spider-man, both are valid (it's not like we consider Roger Stern's Spider-man to be a mere facet manifestation of Dan Slott's Spider-man because Dan Slott wrote Spider-man to be stronger).

But it's important to specify that there's no evidence to suggest that Chris Hastings' TOAA is more powerful than Jim Starlin's TOAA. Because Jim Starlin's TOAA didn't just create the Multiverse, he created the laws that created the Multiverse. While "writer" in a technical sense constantly has to interact with creation to maintain it, like he did in the Deadpool comic.

More interestingly the writer in Marvel was killed by She-Hulk, so the writer, can also be interpreted as fairly weak, but you can't do that to Jim Starlin's TOAA.
 
Sigh...

>That isn't to deligitamize any other writer's interpretation of what TOAA is, if Chris Hastings like to think of it as Jack Kirby (who wasn't a writer btw) that's perfectly fine. But ultimately it's like two different writers interpretation of Spider-man, both are valid (it's not like we consider Roger Stern's Spider-man to be a mere facet manifestation of Dan Slott's Spider-man because Dan Slott wrote Spider-man to be stronger).

TOAA is not just writer but every writer and editor and guidebook from marvel. which is confirmed in multiple sources such as guidebook, comics, twitter statements and such.

>But it's important to specify that there's no evidence to suggest that Chris Hastings' TOAA is more powerful than Jim Starlin's TOAA. Because Jim Starlin's TOAA didn't just create the Multiverse, he created the laws that created the Multiverse. While "writer" in a technical sense constantly has to interact with creation to maintain it, like he did in the Deadpool comic.

TOAA in deadpool story is beyond Jim starlin ones. As even the tip of the pencil alone was the root of all creation and TOAA pencil himself stated to be everything and nothing. Funny enough even deadpool got a trauma from looking at TOAA. and he views creation way different than others, Charles Xavier was him having a brain aneurysm when he realized he was a fictional character after reading Deadpool's mind. And then even deadpool freaked out by TOAA appearance.

The difference between the two is one is metafictional and one isn't. The two exist in 2 different realm. One is Heaven and one isn't.

deadpool toaa> AAO by that alone as AAO couldn't even stop 2-A destruction and a object that was within the realities(yes the story of infinity conflict was 2-A at best.

>More interestingly the writer in Marvel was killed by She-Hulk, so the writer, can also be interpreted as fairly weak, but you can't do that to Jim Starlin's TOAA.

As in another deadpool story it was stated everything is scripted. Just the same way they did with dc animal man (and yes that was directly stated in that comic. that writers do every scripted.) Deadpool once thought he killed his writers and he even said killing the writer was no use since they still exist to write the story.

Stop making assumptions if you don't know anything about TOAA.

Edit: Excuse me for sounding so rude.
 
>The Above-all-Others is the One Above All. Ever since he was first mentioned TOAA (as I will call him from now on) was defined as the Living Tribunal's master, this was TOAA's one defining trait as mentioned in Infinity War #2 (1992) and later in Warlock Chronicles #2 (1993). And in Infinity Finale we learned that it was only the Living Tribunal who was able to access an audience with the one he served, TOAA.

Are you saying because of that they can't be seperated?

Fun fact in the infinity conflict story. It was stated there was a being who created the story and all the other infinity stories of jim. Which would logically suggest to the True TOAA since the writer was claiming to create the story where AAO was in.
 
>TOAA is not just writer but every writer and editor and guidebook from marvel. which is confirmed in multiple sources such as guidebook, comics, twitter statements and such.

What sources, the only source I've seen for that is Ewing's tweet (from the opening post) and according to him, even the readers are the One Above All.

>TOAA in deadpool story is beyond Jim starlin ones. As even the tip of the pencil alone was the root of all creation and TOAA pencil himself stated to be everything and nothing. Funny enough even deadpool got a trauma from looking at TOAA. and he views creation way different than others, Charles Xavier was him having a brain aneurysm when he realized he was a fictional character after reading Deadpool's mind. And then even deadpool freaked out by TOAA appearance.

Hastings' TOAA literally needed Deadpool's help, because the villains literally stole his pen. Something they would not be able to do to Jim Starlin's TOAA, who's God in a more literal sense.

>deadpool toaa> AAO by that alone as AAO couldn't even stop 2-A destruction and a object that was within the realities(yes the story of infinity conflict was 2-A at best.

And Hastings' TOAA can? Based on what? You don't have any feats for Hastings' TOAA other than he accidently dropping his pen (which isn't too impressive by any standard).

>LMFAO. this is just to stupid. As in another deadpool story it was stated everything is scripted. Just the same way they did with dc animal man (and yes that was directly stated in that comic. that writers do every scripted.) Deadpool once thought he killed his writers and he even said killing the writer was no use since they still exist to write the story.

She-Hulk killed killed her writer in canon regardless of your metafictional interpretations of the event.

>Stop making assumptions if you don't know anything about TOAA.

I'm not making any assumptions I'm quoting events and scenes you seem to be unfamiliar with.

>Are you saying because of that they can't be seperated?

No, I'm saying that they should not be separated for the same reason we don't separate every writer's take on Spider-man (or any other character). It's a mess and it goes against the idea of a canon.

Especially if you want to present it in the format "Starlin's TOAA is just a facet of Hastings' TOAA" which is nothing more than fan theory.

>Fun fact in the infinity conflict story. It was stated there was a being who created the story and all the other infinity stories of jim. Which would logically suggest to the True TOAA since the writer was claiming to create the story where AAO was in.

No, the Living Tribunal speculated that there should be a force beyond TOAA. And I think this will be covered in Infinity Ending, and it may even be Jim Starlin (the writer) himself. But as of now any speculation of what that may be is nothing but fan theory and should not be inflated with what's canon.

That said, any writer appearance so far have less impressive feats than Jim Starlin's TOAA.

>I had already made a debunk post about this. just search it up

Why not just link it?
 
Hastings' TOAA literally needed Deadpool's help, because the villains literally stole his pen.Something they would not be able to do to Jim Starlin's TOAA, who's God in a more literal sense.

basically is written to be like that. So if we just going to ignore the fact that it's scripted. by that logic Dc writer can be defeated by weaker characters just saying.

And Hastings' TOAA can? Based on what? You don't have any feats for Hastings' TOAA other than he accidently dropping his pen (which isn't too impressive by any standard)

>The tip alone was root of creation itself

> ultimates Toaa is basically hasting TOAA. Who had far more impressives feats than AAO does. Ultimates TOAA existed beyond the nothingness that is beyond the multiverse. while AAO exist outside the multiverse

I'm not making any assumptions I'm quoting events and scenes you seem to be unfamiliar with. > Unfamiliar.

Please I already know these stuff. Like I said it's all written which is basically multiple times stated in 3 different deadpool stories.

Especially if you want to present it in the format "Starlin's TOAA is just a facet of Hastings' TOAA" which is nothing more than fan theory.

How is it a fan theory if TOAA is supposed to be every writer and editor whom created the every story in marvel. While AAO is just an in-universe god.

No, the Living Tribunal speculated that there should be a force beyond TOAA. And I think this will be covered in Infinity Ending, and it may even be Jim Starlin (the writer) himself. But as of now any speculation of what that may be is nothing but fan theory and should not be inflated with what's canon.

I'm talking about editor al part. Where the writer himself state he created the story.

That said, any writer appearance so far have less impressive feats than Jim Starlin's TOAA.

Completely wrong AAO has no feats that makes him above even Oblivion. While TOAA as writer does since al ewing stated TOAA in his comic is also supposed to be the writer.

What sources, the only source I've seen for that is Ewing's tweet (from the opening post) and according to him, even the readers are the One Above All.

I have posted them already b4 matthew and Ant and others agreed with it. Why even start this discussion when you only saw al ewing tweet?
 
>basically is written to be like that. So if we just going to ignore the fact that it's scripted. by that logic Dc writer can be defeated by weaker characters just saying.

That's a metafictional interpretation, and it's flawed because it can be used for any cameo in any fiction. You might as well argue that Metal Gear Solid has a Tier 0 character because Hideo Kojima (director) made a cameo apperance in Metal Gear Solid 5.

That's why most battleboards go by feats because it deflates these non-arguments.

>The tip alone was root of creation itself

> ultimates Toaa is basically hasting TOAA. Who had far more impressives feats than AAO does. Ultimates TOAA existed beyond the nothingness that is beyond the multiverse. while AAO exist outside the multiverse

1. Ewing's and Hastings' interpretations are different. Ewing interprets TOAA as a representation of the company and its consumers while Hastings' interpretation seem to be the writer (or illustrator). Both are metafictional, but not the same.

2. Existing somewhere isn't a feat. Like I showed you, She-Hulk existed in the office of the writer, that didn't make her any more powerful than she was. Feats are things that are done. And to that extent, actively creating one story (Hastings' interpretation) isn't as impressive as inactively creating infinite stories (Starlin's interpretation).

>Please I already know these stuff. Like I said it's all written which is basically multiple times stated in 3 different deadpool stories.

If you knew that Starlin's TOAA had been referred to as the One Above All, and you knew that She-Hulk has killed a writer then you were being disingenious.

>How is it a fan theory if TOAA is supposed to be every writer and editor whom created the every story in marvel. While AAO is just an in-universe god.

Because they're two different interpretations of the same supreme entity by two different writers. There's nothing to suggest that they're two separate entities in the first place, let alone that they're in different places in the hierarchy.

>Completely wrong AAO has no feats that makes him above even Oblivion. While TOAA as writer does since al ewing stated TOAA in his comic is also supposed to be the writer.

It doesn't matter whether or not Hastings' interpretation is supposed to be the writer (that in itself isn't a feat) and we've seen She-Hulk kill a writer in Marvel canon, so they don't have to be particularly powerful.

If we look at feats Starlin's interpretation of TOAA literally created infinity possibilities (infinity stories) simply by willing it. That's infinity stories whereas Hastings' interpretation was having a hard time creating one story. It's as simple as simple as ∞ > 1.

>I have posted them already b4 matthew and Ant and others agreed with it. Why even start this discussion when you only saw al ewing tweet?

Because I'm interested in the evidence you have that supposedly have that backs up your claims. By withholding that evidence you're making the debate longer than it should be.
 
It doesn't matter whether or not Hastings' interpretation is supposed to be the writer (that in itself isn't a feat) and we've seen She-Hulk kill a writer in Marvel canon, so they don't have to be particularly powerful.

We have seen Animal Man hurt Grant Morrison so he isn't powerful anymore.

Existing somewhere isn't a feat. Like I showed you, She-Hulk existed in the office of the writer, that didn't make her any more powerful than she was. Feats are things that are done. And to that extent, actively creating one story (Hastings' interpretation) isn't as impressive as inactively creating infinite stories (Starlin's interpretation).

well it is. One is just Possibility Manipulation while the other one is Plot Manipulation. and Plot Manipulation> Possibility Manipulation since Plot created the possibily to have possibilities or create possibilities the first place.

f you knew that Starlin's TOAA had been referred to as the One Above All, and you knew that She-Hulk has killed a writer then you were being disingenious.

In Starling comics AAO has never been called TOAA. And is weaker than objects that exist within realities themself. And about the she Hulk part take example to my first reply.

Because they're two different interpretations of the same supreme entity by two different writers. There's nothing to suggest that they're two separate entities in the first place, let alone that they're in different places in the hierarchy.

They are different unless you can proof me AAO is a writer and could create stories via plot and use a pencil to create stories.

It doesn't matter whether or not Hastings' interpretation is supposed to be the writer (that in itself isn't a feat) and we've seen She-Hulk kill a writer in Marvel canon, so they don't have to be particularly powerful.

Because it's scripted to be that way they have make it clear multiple times.

Ewing's and Hastings' interpretations are different. Ewing interprets TOAA as a representation of the company and its consumers while Hastings' interpretation seem to be the writer (or illustrator). Both are metafictional, but not the same.

They aren't. both interpretations came from the fantastic 4 story and from a guidebook. Where FF stated that jack kirby is part of the process together with every marvel editor and writer etc. And even the Guidebook said TOAA is the embodiment of every writer and marvel artist.

clearly you can see AAO isn't aware of being a fictional being is created by the writer. It's basically here stated that AAO and the rest is created by the writer which TOAA embodies.
 
Especially if you want to present it in the format "Starlin's TOAA is just a facet of Hastings' TOAA" which is nothing more than fan theory.

But you couldn't even proof yourself he isn't. Proof me now AAO can create plot and use a pencil and eraser.

Both are completely different. One is just a God within a fictional and one is a metafictional above the fictional stories. And that isn't enough proof?

This is pretty hilarious you been calling me a liar and say I make false theory but yet you haven't even shown a single legit proof. And keep using shit that could even get the Writer from DC downgraded by your Logic.
 
I'm going to sleep now I will see what you say next day. And funny enough The Living Tribunal was only an avatar within infinity conflict and multiple jim starling stories.

LMFAO that would make AAO at best high 2-A for being beyond the infinite realities. And Completely being weaker than Thanos who is only the embodiment of tha avatars in the reality.

So Yeah you decide High 2-A AAO or She Hulk killed Writers even when it was scripted to be like that.
 
For the record, I am personally very uneasy with featuring what are essentially self-insert author characters, who are regular 10-B people in real life, as tier 0 characters within fiction.

It is possible that we should get rid of The Writer and all metafictional interpretations/references within The-One-Above-All profile at some point down the line.
 
I have asked them to comment.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
I think we should have the Fictional Above-All-Others as a 1-A key in the TOAA profile, while TOAA himself gets to be Tier 0 based on meta stuff of him being the writer.
Click to expand...
I agree with Matt here. Besides that I don't have much to say about this matter.
 
Okay. What about that The Writer and the current state of The OAA profile are currently essentially presented as self-insert characters of real life 10-B people? Don't you think that the metafictional angle seems inappropriate and sets a terrible precedent in the wiki?

Personally, I would rather get rid of the 4th wall breaking parts of TOAA profile, delete The Writer, and merge The Overvoid, The Presence, and The Source into a single tier 0 transdual character.
 
I don't think that Grant Morrison's interview statement slightly implying that the Presence, the Overvoid, and the Source are the same being is enough evidence to say they are. He actually doesn't even say they are, he says different beings in DC have different things that they believe to be akin to a monotheistic God, the Monitors believing the Overvoid, the New Gods believing the Source, and the humans believing the Presence. They're not only typically portrayed as different beings, as well as the evidence for them being weak [I.e., the one of the Over-Monitor saying the Source is the "Prime Monitor". Monitor-Mind the Overvoid has never been referred to as the Prime Monitor, only the Primal Monitor, which Prime and Primal mean two very different things. There is also the comic where the Spectre goes into the Source and gives the implication that the Source is God, but that is moreover because the Spectre's narrative at the time is that he is travelling pantheons to learn the nature of God, and this was the New Gods' interpretation of God]. They also consistently are portrayed as having different levels of power. The Source is a very down to Earth source of power, being fully harnessed by beings such as those who wield the Quintessence, Mister Miracle in Death of the New Gods, Highfather becoming the Source after dying, and the several times Darkseid threatened the Source and even fought it. There is Mageddon, who came from beyond the Source, the true form of Brainiac who went beyond the Source, the examples are endless. The Presence is always superior in stories, often portrayed as even being able to hold the Source in his hand. Beings who deal with it and threaten it are never on his level, really. And this extends even further with the Overvoid. The Overvoid and the Source are even explicitly separated on the Map of the Multiverse with the Source being contained within the Overvoid. Having these three as one being would also accumulate a massive amount of anti-feats that the Source and the Presence have and impose them onto the Overvoid.

As for the metafictional stuff for DC, I don't think it needs to be entirely gotten rid of, because DC does have characters that are intentionally that meta, and reoccurringly so. I don't think the Writer should necessarily be as powerful as it is, though. The Writers in DC we see in the series are variable in power. There is the Monkey and Grant Morrison, who both lived in Limbo and are portrayed as being nowhere near as powerful as the Overvoid, for example, but then we have the Writers of Retconn Corporations from the Milk Wars comics that are shown to be superior to the Overvoid, but also inferior to several other serious and non-meta characters, such as Ahl and the Eonymous, the latter likely being the strongest beings in DC, as the Writers of Retconn only make stories on the Overvoid to appease the Eonymous to keep them from destroying everything.

Anywho, it can be talked about more in-depth in another thread, I suppose. I saw the proposition and thought I would make a comment.
 
Okay. I suppose that you have a point about The Overmonitor, The Presence, and The Source remaining separate, but I still think that it sets a terrible precedent to allow self-insert metafiction characters into the tier 0 category.
 
"There is also the comic where the Spectre goes into the Source and gives the implication that the Source is God, but that is moreover because the Spectre's narrative at the time is that he is travelling pantheons to learn the nature of God, and this was the New Gods' interpretation of God]. "

That wasnt the context LOL
 
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