Kashin Koji Upgrade [Naruto]

[HelloThere1089]

here

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Because quality is what makes Kurama's chakra different from usual chakra. Of course it is emphasized. It is a plot point too, "The hatred inside Kurama". That doesn't prove quantity isn't proportional tho. The quality of Kurama's chakra didn't change during his battle with Sasuke. Sasuke just noted that it is different from any other. But Naruto grew stronger and faster every time a new tail cloak popped up.

that's not the only thing, I've listed multiple scans showing us that is used to refer to power levels, right after they say this chakra type they mention his power,if this is what raises him to a power level this is literally proportional to a, simply saying more tails = stat amp overlooks how each time they're also gaining stronger chakra, these cases are not mutually exclusive

Tbh I have some stuff irl so might not be able to engage consistently. Might as well put me in disagree. I'll respond if I get time.

do you also disagree with speed?

 

[HelloThere1089]

that's not the only thing, I've listed multiple scans showing us that is used to refer to power levels, right after they say this chakra type they mention his power,if this is what raises him to a power level this is literally proportional to a, simply saying more tails = stat amp overlooks how each time they're also gaining stronger chakra, these cases are not mutually exclusive

Disagree. Never stated.

do you also disagree with speed?

Yes.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Disagree. Never stated.

They don't sense his volumes and stacks of chakra, they all sense the type and refer to that for his power

Yes.

any particular reason?

 

[HelloThere1089]

They don't sense his volumes and stacks of chakra, they all sense the type and refer to that for his power

Do they state that his chakra is getting stronger? They only state that it's strong.

any particular reason?

Simply because I think chakra has an effect on speed. It's unquantifiable but it's there.

 

[BlackeJan]

AP for Naruto should be chakra control+amount of chakra = strength of shinobi

Tha stuff above was introduced in the early stages of the series but pretty much disappeared and became a concept of “amount of chakra = strength of shinobi”

Also regarding Bijuu chakra, literally in the war when Naruto gave Kakashi kurama’s chakra, he said it was like 3x stronger. Same thing applied when Hinata was able to smack away the Ten Tails hand and everyone was shocked at how powerful it was

 

[Testarossa002]

Well Borushiki is like a tier above most of the six paths characters too, by Six Paths I meant KCM Naruto

That borushiki isn't a tier above Naruto

Delta believing she could take Naruto and then having feats sufficient enough to scale to him means their statements hold some level of credibility that these characters would give Naruto at least some level of challenge

That's exactly the issue
They lack feats that put them that high
Boro said all that only to have his jutsus cancelled out by Sarada
In Boruto, given all the wonky scaling, scaling should have a decent support of actual feats. We'll most likely not be scaling the Gokage to kinshiki if we didn't see them actually fight him. Even though they have statements

And since Koji was made to end Jigen and he does not use that for normal Jigen implies it doesn't boost AP much for him to warrant pushing all his ratings to the SM section

He was made to end Jigen AFTER the latter would have been spent from fighting narusuke. Something Amado states and KK himself implies. Whether it's 1/10 of his strength doesn't matter much since the plan was to catch Jigen off guard during recovery

Edit: I think the speed is fine. Not through 1/10 Jigen or not but by the implications of his hypothetical fight against Delta

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I disagree with this. The point of that blog you linked was to say that chakra volume isn't the ONLY factor to your stats, but it is definitely still a factor. There are so many examples of people getting stronger from increased chakra. The Gates boost your physical abilities by allowing you access to more of your chakra, the chakra boost provided by the Curse Mark provides the increase in strength, 100 Healings boosts your stats by releasing chakra that you've accumulated in your forehead, military rations pellets, which double your chakra level, allowed Akamaru to overpower Naruto's grip, concentrating more chakra in your feet makes you faster, chakra volume determines the winner of a ninjutsu clash, etc.

Conversely, there are plenty of examples of people being nerfed when they have less chakra. Making more clones, which simply divides your chakra, weakens the chakra of each one, weakens the original body, and makes jutsu activation slower, Itachi and Kisame's 30% clones were reduced in strength due to not having as much chakra, having your chakra absorbed weakens you, being low on chakra reduces your reaction speed, Sasuke was weakened against Shin due to using so much chakra teleporting to and back from Kaguya's dimension, etc.

"If charging for 2 days upgrades you to Jigen level AP, why not charge all the cyborgs for a week and annihilate Konoha? Let Jigen charge for 4 days and get 200% power"

As for this, it doesn't work as it presupposes that everyone can be charged infinitely, rather than them having a limit they can charge up to, which is how charging actually works in real life. Even Edos, who have infinitely regenerating chakra, don't go forever and have a limit that can be exhausted before returning to max capacity.

In regards to the Delta scaling, I'm somewhat fine with Kashin Koji being in the same general level of speed as her, but they already scale to the same value anyways, so even if she was faster, it's not contradictory for him to be able to keep up with her. You could add it as supporting evidence, but for AP it's too vague to say Base Koji scales to Delta. It also wouldn't make much sense considering Base Jigen fought him, and even if I steelmanned Jigen's stats remaining the same, Delta scales 2x above Base Jigen.

TLDR; I disagree with most of this, the only possible exception being speed, which I'm still not entirely sold on.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Do they state that his chakra is getting stronger? They only state that it's strong.

Come on man they're not gonna say it's stronger because they haven't seen one tails Naruto
or in contrast to naruto they just say its nine tails power

Simply because I think chakra has an effect on speed. It's unquantifiable but it's there.

What ab the Delta fight implications

That borushiki isn't a tier above Naruto

He kinda is, or at least there's no anti feats capping him at any level, he's his own thing

That's exactly the issue
They lack feats that put them that high
Boro said all that only to have his jutsus cancelled out by Sarada
In Boruto, given all the wonky scaling, scaling should have a decent support of actual feats. We'll most likely not be scaling the Gokage to kinshiki if we didn't see them actually fight him. Even though they have statements

I am saying we should not scrutinise Kara member statements at the same level as we would with other scaling statements that are controversial, the gokage scaling to Kinshiki or Sarada being a god tier can be considered wonky scaling, but members of an organisation made by the same man who lived upto their self-given hype (i.e. Delta scaling to naruto after thinking she could beat him) implies some accuracy that you wont find with others

He was made to end Jigen AFTER the latter would have been spent from fighting narusuke. Something Amado states and KK himself implies. Whether it's 1/10 of his strength doesn't matter much since the plan was to catch Jigen off guard during recovery

This is nice and all but it's talking about a completely different point than what I tackled (Although it's fine to believe KK was designed to end a weakened Jigen)

 

[MinatoSparkle]

He kinda is, or at least there's no anti feats capping him at any level, he's his own thing

Naruto~Sasuke>>Fatigued Rinneganless Sasuke~Early Borushiki

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I disagree with this. The point of that blog you linked was to say that chakra volume isn't the ONLY factor to your stats, but it is definitely still a factor. There are so many examples of people getting stronger from increased chakra. The Gates boost your physical abilities by allowing you access to more of your chakra, the chakra boost provided by the Curse Mark provides the increase in strength, 100 Healings boosts your stats by releasing chakra that you've accumulated in your forehead, military rations pellets, which double your chakra level, allowed Akamaru to overpower Naruto's grip, concentrating more chakra in your feet makes you faster, chakra volume determines the winner of a ninjutsu clash, etc.

Conversely, there are plenty of examples of people being nerfed when they have less chakra. Making more clones, which simply divides your chakra, weakens the chakra of each one, weakens the original body, and makes jutsu activation slower, Itachi and Kisame's 30% clones were reduced in strength due to not having as much chakra, having your chakra absorbed weakens you, being low on chakra reduces your reaction speed, Sasuke was weakened against Shin due to using so much chakra teleporting to and back from Kaguya's dimension, etc.

"If charging for 2 days upgrades you to Jigen level AP, why not charge all the cyborgs for a week and annihilate Konoha? Let Jigen charge for 4 days and get 200% power"

As for this, it doesn't work as it presupposes that everyone can be charged infinitely, rather than them having a limit they can charge up to, which is how charging actually works in real life. Even Edos, who have infinitely regenerating chakra, don't go forever and have a limit that can be exhausted before returning to max capacity.

As for the Delta scaling, I'm somewhat fine with Kashin Koji being in the same general level of speed as her, but they already scale to the same value anyways, so even if she was faster, it's not contradictory for him to be able to keep up with her. You could add it as supporting evidence, but for AP it's too vague to say Base Koji scales to Delta. It also wouldn't make much sense considering Base Jigen fought him, and even if I steelmanned Jigen's stats remaining the same, Delta scales 2x above Base Jigen.

TLDR; I disagree with most of this, the only possible exception being speed, which I'm still not entirely sold on.

The Gates affect more factors than mere chakra, your muscle energy gets unlocked, something that dont apply the same to every chakra amp or else we would have speed multipliers paired with AP ones, I even mentioned that transformations are an exception because we know they increase power and other stats as thats the point of those, its power shift born from merely increasing or decreasing chakra that does not occur.

as for the other points they are either based on clones who's scaling can be weird since some of them have feats of having almost the same speed as naruto and the other points are just them running out chakra/being low on fuel leading to their jutsu use being lowered rather than AP decreasing, Hashirama's scan can be explained by him being able to use more costly Jutsu, the Itachi one- it isn't even a shadow clone, it's a sacrificial clone which should be different

it presupposes that everyone can be charged infinitely, rather than them having a limit they can charge up to,

Amado made the cyborgs that can fight naruto so just build a bigger battery?

but they already scale to the same value anyways

They don't, Test would remove the 10c scaling from Kakashi as unlike Kaguya who went through an amp there's no buff to round up the value to (so far as I know) , so Koji by himself in base would be 9c and 10c if we accept him scaling to Delta's speed, if you think he does not scale to her AP that is fine.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Engaging in a back and forth while there are no staff to convince seems kind of like a waste of time (and I don't have that much these days anyways), so this will be my last response for the time being.

The Gates affect more factors than mere chakra, your muscle energy gets unlocked, something that dont apply the same to every chakra amp or else we would have speed multipliers paired with AP ones,

It quite literally says that gaining access to all of your chakra results in the increased muscle power and that overriding the limit on how much chakra flows through your body gives you access to dozens of times your usual strength. The increased chakra is what grants those extra boosts, or at least is a major factor in it.

I even mentioned that transformations are an exception because we know they increase power and other stats as thats the point of those, its power shift born from merely increasing or decreasing chakra that does not occur.

But in the case of the Curse Mark, the chakra boost IS what spurs an increase in strength. In the VIZ at least which ik you prefer, the chakra boost and strength boost are coincidentally both 10x (from what I've translated of the raws, the Jirobo statement is "more than ten times," and the Sakon statement is "tens of times," so not really contradictory still), almost as if they're linked.

as for the other points they are either based on clones who's scaling can be weird since some of them have feats of having almost the same speed as naruto

I would disagree, but that's irrelevant as you yourself said almost, meaning you agree there is some level of nerf from having less chakra

and the other points are just them running out chakra/being low on fuel leading to their jutsu use being lowered rather than AP decreasing,

No, you straight up ignored a majority of the points

100 Healings boosts your stats by releasing chakra that you've accumulated in your forehead, military rations pellets, which double your chakra level, allowed Akamaru to overpower Naruto's grip, concentrating more chakra in your feet makes you faster, chakra volume determines the winner of a ninjutsu clash, etc.

makes jutsu activation slower, having your chakra absorbed weakens you, being low on chakra reduces your reaction speed, Sasuke was weakened against Shin due to using so much chakra teleporting to and back from Kaguya's dimension, etc.

Hashirama's scan can be explained by him being able to use more costly Jutsu, the Itachi one- it isn't even a shadow clone, it's a sacrificial clone which should be different

What's the difference other than chakra volume? Kisame explicitly states they're only limited in strength cause of the amount of chakra they have, and the databook says the clone's abilities are proportional to how much chakra they have (AKA a clone with 30% of the member's chakra would have 30% of their strength, and a clone with 100% of the member's chakra would have 100% of their strength; the only difference between them being chakra volume)

Koji made the cyborgs that can fight naruto so just build a bigger battery?

I assume you mean Amado? Regardless, it's not so simple. By that logic, why not just make phones with far larger batteries than we have today? There are limits to technology.

They don't, Test would remove the 10c scaling from Kakashi as unlike Kaguya who went through an amp there's no buff to round up the value to (so far as I know) , so Koji by himself in base would be 9c and 10c if we accept him scaling to Delta's speed, if you think he does not scale to her AP that is fine.

9.12c vs 10c is also not a large difference. But you can consider me neutral on this point as it's not a big deal either way.

 

[HelloThere1089]

Come on man they're not gonna say it's stronger because they haven't seen one tails Naruto
or in contrast to naruto they just say its nine tails power

Sasuke never said Kurama's chakra changed during his fight in the valley. He saw him grow a tail. The only time the chakra quality is stated to change is when Naruto goes from V1 cloak to V2 cloak. So extra tails have never indicated change in quality. Only change in version have.

What ab the Delta fight implications

He could switch into SM. I have no issue with SM scaling to her outright. But base idk. Put me as neutral for now.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

He could switch into SM. I have no issue with SM scaling to her outright. But base idk. Put me as neutral for now.

I think his flames and Rasengan should atleast scale to Delta even when he is in Base.

Sage mode Rasengan implied to capable of doing some damage to Isshiki (Not saying any big damage just some amount of damage. Looking at how Isshiki used his dimensions stored objects to spam(sneak) on Koji instead straight up Overpowering his Rasengan)
So I think Sage mode is above Delta

 

[HelloThere1089]

I think his flames and Rasengan should atleast scale to Delta even when he is in Base.

How come?

Sage mode Rasengan implied to capable of doing some damage to Isshiki (Not saying any big damage just some amount of damage. Looking at how Isshiki used his dimensions stored objects to spam(sneak) on Koji instead straight up Overpowering his Rasengan)
So I think Sage mode is above Delta

I agree SM Koji > Delta

From the given info an outright scaling chain would look like:

Base Koji<Delta<SM Koji<Isshiki

Base Koji could be relative to Delta, but the evidence isn't solid, so that's why I'm neutral.