Naruto Revision: Kashin Koji Editorial

[Tdjwo]

Actually she can be scaled to base naruto since it makes no sense for naruto to go six path just to be weaker than his base. So she'd still scale to 312 zt

I wasn't refering to base Naruto. I was referring to FP SPSM Naruto whom she currently scales to according to vsbw.

Also, base Naruto is not 312. He is 156.2 ZT.

 

[karo_senpaii]

So basically this thread should be clean cut. It’s not a “downgrade” persay, but I do want to change his reasoning.

On his page, Koji’s rating is: “Unknown, Likely 5-B, Higher with Sage Mode”

The reasoning is, he should be “comparable” to Delta and fought 10% Jigen. This is his Base it’s referring to btw.

I disagree with one part of this (The Delta Part) for a few reasons…

1. While Koji “was” Confident he could take down Delta, he was featless prior to this moment, besides taking on Konohamaru. There is no other feat, implication or context that would scale Koji to Delta or suggest he could take her down in base.
2. Delta prior to this moment already has feats against a “serious” Naruto (No Killing Intent), whom she could fight and hurt.
3. While Base Koji could evenly fight 10% Jigen, it’s important to remember that Jigen is only in that state BECAUSE he used 90% of his power, fighting Naruto & Sasuke.
4. Despite all of that, the biggest nail in this coffin is that even Amado himself states Koji IN TOTALITY is not as strong as Naruto and Sasuke, when compared.

So when we take all of this information in, it shakes out to be Naruto > SM Koji > Base Koji ~ 10% Jigen (I do want to note 2 things as well that muddles this even more: We refer to him as 10% Jigen, but he wasn’t at 10%. Not only this, but it wasn’t “just” Jigen / Isshiki’s Power, but before even going to Konoha, he was shown absorbing Tentails Chakra in preparation).

Going back to my initial gripes, Base Koji cannot scale to Delta. There is nothing that supports him being able to fight Delta in Base, and that instance if confidence could be due to him having SM, which he could use against her, and her feats against Naruto and his feats against Jigen support the notion that Koji would only be able to take down Delta with SM.

The only way Base Koji being Comparable to Delta makes sense is if we make the assumption Naruto was holding back far more than the SM amp would give Koji, due to him not having Killing Intent, but that assumption goes against what’s stated and shown in the fight with Delta. There is not enough evidence to support Base Koji being comparable to Delta.

Therefore I recommend taking that Delta reasoning off his profile for his Base Form. His Base should solely scale to whatever that Weakend Jigen scales to and the Delta Confidence should be ignored or added for reasoning under his his SM rating.

I would like to address the last paragraph. A sasuke who has had this, and this, and this, and this, and this, also this done to him. He then got his rinnegan and his eye completely stabbed out here. He is still rated as 5B. a sasuke so low on chakra that his tomoe on his rinnengan is missing is also rated as 5B. now the sasuke here is still fully functioning and able to use his rinnengan and also deliver a chidori at same time. he also proceeds to use amaterasu and also from this statement we see he still has enough chakra to use space time ninjustu. this will put him above his rinnengan with no tomoe. And jigen was still able to pratically one shot him here. This would mean that version of jigen is 5B. Now why is that important? Right before he performs the feat, this happens. His vessel cracks and he says jigen body is at his limit. So a cracked jigen body has the 5B feat. Fastforward to vs Koji and this happens again. Same crack and same statement. This means that a 10% jigen scales far above this cracked state. So 10% Jigen~base Koji > cracked vessel limit jigen>5b weakened sasuke

 

[karo_senpaii]

I wasn't refering to base Naruto. I was referring to FP SPSM Naruto whom she currently scales to according to vsbw.

Also, base Naruto is not 312. He is 156.2 ZT.

actually you are correct. still 5B though

 

[KaydeeX]

Going back to my initial gripes, Base Koji cannot scale to Delta. There is nothing that supports him being able to fight Delta in Base, and that instance if confidence could be due to him having SM, which he could use against her, and her feats against Naruto and his feats against Jigen support the notion that Koji would only be able to take down Delta with SM.

Additionally, there's nothing that supports him not being in base in the presumed battle against delta.
Hitchen's Razor

That's why a "likely" was presented, along with other statements that supports the narrative.

 

[HelloThere1089]

I have some reservations about this. On the panel where Kashin Koji was about to fight Delta. He was ready immediately with a hand sign to perform a jutsu. It didn't seem like he was about to wait and go sage mode. Even if he planned to do that mid fight, he'd still have to fight her at base for some time. Knowing that Kashi koji knows how strong Delta is, if he thought only sage mode can take her down, he would have been ready already with sage mode. I think a likely rating is apt in this situation. Until we get more info about base koji.

 

[TFO]

I have some reservations about this. On the panel where Kashin Koji was about to fight Delta. He was ready immediately with a hand sign to perform a jutsu. It didn't seem like he was about to wait and go sage mode. Even if he planned to do that mid fight, he'd still have to fight her at base for some time. Knowing that Kashi koji knows how strong Delta is, if he thought only sage mode can take her down, he would have been ready already with sage mode. I think a likely rating is apt in this situation. Until we get more info about base koji.

The problem with this is, we don’t know how fast KK can enter SM and you are making a lot of assumptions to justify one panel, when one panel is not more justification than their literal feats.

 

[TFO]

Additionally, there's nothing that supports him not being in base in the presumed battle against delta.
Hitchen's Razor

That's why a "likely" was presented, along with other statements that supports the narrative.

Except for the fact that his FEATS in base doesn’t support he can take Delta in base, so everything you’ve just said is null and void here.

 

[karo_senpaii]

Ques

Except for the fact that his FEATS in base doesn’t support he can take Delta in base, so everything you’ve just said is null and void here.

Question, what feats In base does he have that contradict him being relative to Delta?

 

[HelloThere1089]

The problem with this is, we don’t know how fast KK can enter SM

If he could go sage mode instantaneously then that's what he would do before making a hand sign. He already knows how strong Delta is, unlike in Isshiki's case where he had to realise how strong got. If he thought only sage mode can defeat Delta then there would be no point in his hand sign.

and you are making a lot of assumptions to justify one panel

Like what?

when one panel is not more justification than their literal feats.

What feats contradict his scaling. Being featless doesn't contradict anything though.

 

[TFO]

If he could go sage mode instantaneously then that's what he would do before making a hand sign. He already knows how strong Delta is, unlike in Isshiki's case where he had to realise how strong got. If he thought only sage mode can defeat Delta then there would be no point in his hand sign.

Like what?

What feats contradict his scaling. Being featless doesn't contradict anything though.

Bro read the thread.

 

[TFO]

Ques
Question, what feats In base does he have that contradict him being relative to Delta?

You should really reread my last response to you.

 

[TFO]

You know what, I am done. We’ll see where this goes. What others think. Agree or disagree, it’s fine. I no longer have the stomach for dealing with CRT’s. I’ll end up getting banned .

So, people can see the links, see the arguments and counters that have been made. See what makes sense to them and go from there.

 

[HelloThere1089]

"While Koji “was” Confident he could take down Delta, he was featless prior to this moment, besides taking on Konohamaru."
This doesn't mean he scales to Konohamaru's level.

" it’s important to remember that Jigen is only in that state BECAUSE he used 90% of his power"
It is also because Jigen is a flawed vessel. Naruto and Sasuke absolutely weren't pushing Jigen. Jigen only got weakened because the vessel couldn't handle that long of a fight. Naruto and Sasuke absolutely do not scale to Jigen whatsoever.

"Despite all of that, the biggest nail in this coffin is that even Amado himself states Koji IN TOTALITY is not as strong as Naruto and Sasuke, when compared."
Like other's have pointed out, that's Naruto + Sasuke. That also means Kurama, susanoo, majestic attire Susanoo, teamwork etc. And of course Koji is not as strong as Naruto. The same way Delta is not as strong as Naruto. Two people can scale to the same value and still be considered unequal in terms of strength.

"It’s in the OP. Damaging Naruto is superior to killing a sub 10% Jigen when it took an amped fresh Jigen to fight him."
Except this doesn't mean Koji CAN"T be scaled to Delta. Fresh Jigen was washing Naruto. They don't scale at all. It's only because Jigen is a flawed vessel. The crack is proof of that. Nothing in this thread actually contradicts that scaling.

Edit: If there are any other arguments in this thread that I missed then point me to them.

 

[KaydeeX]

Except for the fact that his FEATS in base doesn’t support he can take Delta in base, so everything you’ve just said is null and void here.

You'd have to prove that.
Because his feats in base is totally stomping a 6C character and scaling to <10% Jigen who scales to an X value. I don't quite see how this negates the notion of the possibility being presented.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

No one bothered to really check on Delta's AP scaling. It makes absolutely no sense for her to scale to full powered SPSM Naruto considering the manga showed us something different. At most she should be scaled to half of Naruto's AP.

And this CRT is operating under that premise

 

[Nierre]

I was gonna give my full opinion as soon as I came back from work but I'm tired af so imma push it to later lol

 

[Nierre]

Okay.

So the opposition's argument hinges on Delta NOT scaling to a full power SPSM Naruto (despite the profiles implying that they're comparable, and they scale to the same value), and I will prove why Delta scales, why Kashin Koji DOESN'T scale, and why I agree with the OP.

Delta​

For starters, we know that Delta was able to stab SPSM Naruto's side, as well as knee and step on him. We know that after he got stabbed, he pretended to be weakened to get information out of Delta.

After exposing him, Naruto himself states he's going start fighting seriously, implying that he hadn't before.

Once he goes serious, they both trade blows and clash. Kawaki then states that if he or Boruto interfere, Naruto cannot go all-out because he's leading the battle. Boruto was worried because Naruto looked like he was on the defensive, but in reality, he was just making sure Delta's attacks wouldn't come flying towards the kids.

Kawaki then says the true strength of Naruto completely surpasses Delta. Context is very important. Kawaki is saying Naruto can afford to fight "defensively" because he's highly skilled and has far more stamina/chakra than Delta, which Naruto implies after Delta fires her laser.

Naruto can afford to fight this way because he has advantages Delta has no way of overcoming. But Naruto himself mentions that his plan was to beat her after she runs out of chakra and energy, which would allow him to find an opening.


Hell, even after Naruto got pissed after Delta used Hima as bait, and got Kawaki with her laser, they were still able to clash and trade blows. Although he was obviously superior to her, due to Delta slowly running out of energy, and Naruto also releasing more of his power, as well as Delta getting one-shot by a Chou Odama Rasengan, none of that means that Delta isn't comparable to Naruto in AP, that just means that Naruto's not only more skilled than Delta, and has far more chakra, but that Chou Odama Rasengan is FAR higher than his regular AP in SPSM.
Delta was able to keep up with Naruto (even when he was enraged), implies that they are comparable.

The wiki currently accepts this as is, so if people have a problem with that, they need to make a CRT to reverse that, but I doubt it'd go through due to what I've laid out.

---

Kashin Koji​

Now for Kashin Koji.


The opposition believes that Kashin Koji should "likely" scale to Delta due to his confidence in being able to defeat her. Here, I'll lay out why I don't believe this means much and I'll be using his own feats to prove it. However, first... scaling.


Base Naruto: 156.2 Zettatons
Base Jigen: > 156.2 Zettatons
SPSM Naruto: 312.8 Zettatons
Karma Jigen: 312.8 Zettatons
Sasuke: 312.8 Zettatons
Delta: = SPSM Naruto (312.8 Zettatons)

SPSM Kurama Mode Naruto: >> 312.8 Zettatons
Susanoo Sasuke: >> 312.8 Zettatons
POM Jigen: >>> 312.8 Zettatons

Koji: (At most) 1/10th Jigen (15.62 Zettatons aka Small Planet level)
SM Koji: higher than before

Isshiki: >>>>> 312.8 Zettatons


Delta CURRENTLY scales to SPSM Naruto (312.8 Zettatons)
Base Jigen CURRENTLY scales to (above) Base Naruto (156.2 Zettatons)

• Which would make (10%) Base Jigen = 15.62 Zettatons (This is important for later)

Karma Jigen scales to SPSM Naruto and Sasuke (312.8 Zettatons)



Kashin Koji's feats:

• Stabbing and burning to death Victor (6-C)
• Crushing a near dead Ao (6-C)​
• Clashing with Konohamaru's Rasengan (And ultimately defeating him) (6-C)​
• His clone fought Kakashi and although it was defeated, he was easily able to thwart Kakashi's blows (6-C)​
• Clashed and traded blows with 10% Base Jigen (Low 5-B)
  

  • Jigen atp isn't even at 10%​

Now, the reason Koji CURRENTLY scales to "likely 5-B" is because "he should be comparable to Delta, as he was confident on being able to beat her." Firstly, **** confidence scaling, lol. That shit is some ass. But most importantly, did we forget that Koji has Jutsu's that AREN'T just AP based? He has a swamp jutsu, hair restraining jutsu, and last but most CERTAINLY not least, his sealing jutsu he used against Team 7.

That sealing jutsu has the same exact hand sign as he used against Delta, which means he was planning on just sealing her there. People may argue that he should know that Delta can just absorb chakra and easily break herself from the sealing justu, just like Boruto did. However, just because the opponent can absorb jutsu, does not mean that Koji wouldn't ever try it anyway. We know that didn't stop him from using his fire abilities against Jigen, someone who can absorb jutsu, and he knew this. In fact, all he was doing was giving Jigen more chakra, since we know that absorbing chakra with Kama, gives the user more chakra, as we have seen with Boruto and Momoshiki.


I saw someone (some people?) saying that there'd be no reason for Amado to make an android (Koji) weaker than Delta, if the plan was to defeat Jigen. ??? Why not? It worked. Amado knew that Jigen would at some point go and fight Naruto and Sasuke, which would weaken him. Which was why he had Koji go in while Jigen was weak. He had a multi faceted, multi step plan to defeat Jigen, and bring out Isshiki, and it worked. Amado didn't need to Koji get stronger, he just needed him to defeat Jigen, and his plan worked.

---

People don't realize that Amado's whole goal is to bring his daughter (Akebi/Delta) back. He wanted Delta to be powerful so she can be a useful and powerful tool. Delta and Koji had different expectations and goals. Koji was meant to be a throaway, assassin. He's a tool, meant to be used by Amado, for his own goals. He's meant to juxtapose Ao in that way because Ao was also a ninja/war veteran who ended up being a tool used by Kara. Which is why instead of dying by the hands of Isshiki, Koji escaped. Once he realized that he got betrayed by Amado and left before he died. Delta has a "core" that has MULTIPLE bodies. Even if Delta were die, she'd have multiple other bodies just in case. She even had a sleep command incase she went out of control or betrayed them, something NONE OF THE OTHER members had. Deepa died, they used his head for information, didn't bring him back. They straight up killed Victor for betraying Kara, he didn't have any type of sleep command. Koji didn't either. Amado couldn't have made Koji stronger than Delta either, or else she would've been locked up like Ada and Daemon.


Excuse me for that small rant. Anyway I agree with the OP. If this were to be accepted, Koji would be downgraded to Low 5-B, higher with Sage Mode (15.62 Zettatons).

This would also revert the recent CRT that upgraded a few characters to 5-A, as they're contingent on Koji's scaling to Delta/10% Jigen.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Nierre makes a lot of sense to me.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Absolutely agree with Nierre's point on Delta, the whole notion of Naruto surpassing Delta has nothing to do with his physicals being somehow superior to her's. Rather once Naruto can slam her with jutsu he obliterates her, but we are shown multiple times and are told that Naruto starts going all out physically. So, there is no reason Delta and SPSM Naruto wouldn't have relative physicals.

Also agree with the Koji points, me implementing Koji ~ Delta scaling is probably the worst thing I did for Boruto God Tier scaling on site . We absolutely shouldn't scale Koji to Delta based on his subjective view that he can defeat her, for all we know this could be in reference to hsi multitude of jutsu (like Nierre pointed out) and his ability to use Sage Mode. It's far too generous (in the name of wank admittedly) to say base Koji is Delta level.

 

[Halkum145]

I'm with nierre

 

[Testarossa002]

Koji: (At most) 1/10th Jigen (15.62 Zettatons aka Small Planet level)
SM Koji: higher than before

Like i said earlier
This line of scaling doesn't work when you're downscaling.
We can use at least 10x when upscaling because we know that whatever level he is (5 or 2 percent), the value at full power will be an at least 10x increase.
When you're downscaling on the other hand, you CAN'T apply the 10% value because he's explicitly stated to not be up to that.
You can either scale him all the way down to 6-C (via KK's feats) or pick a low, mid or high end value that's less than 10 and get staffs to agree on one end.

 

[Nierre]

When you're downscaling on the other hand, you CAN'T apply the 10% value because he's explicitly stated to not be up to that.
You can either scale him all the way down to 6-C (via KK's feats) or pick a low, mid or high end value that's less than 10 and get staffs to agree on one end.

That makes sense to me, I guess. IDK which one would be best tbh.

My natural instinct would be assume he's at least at 5% or 9%, but I have nothing to really base that off of.

If I'm being honest I think 6-C might be the best choice. He fought 4 people within 6-C range, and he's even the clone of Jiraiya, who's also 6-C. 6-C Koji is based but idk if everyone will agree with that

As you said he can't be 10% of Jigen, because he explicitly fought Jigen who was under 10% of his power, so he's an unknown amount weaker than 10%.

 

[Testarossa002]

Exactly
I concede on my stance based on your arguments.
The delta scaling was never in doubt for me anyways.

I also just remembered that Code and Boro also have statements that put them in the Delta/Sasuke line of scaling.
While code somewhat has the feats to back it up, boro was getting damaged by a bunch of 6-Cs. Kawaki fired his karma blast at base Naruto and did 0 damage to even his clothes.

Kara members should get their scalings via feats. Nothing less.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

There are statements implying the Kara Inners are Otsutsuki level so idt he should be 6-C

 

[Nierre]

Boro in question:
Victor in question:
Deepa in question:

I'd like to see this statements in particular, since due to some of the characters that I mentioned, that is highly dubious. Let alone the fact that Koji was only comparable to an Unknown % Jigen.

I'm willing to say something like At least 6-C (feats), likely far higher, higher with Sage Mode, or something of the like.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

There are statements implying the Kara Inners are Otsutsuki level so idt he should be 6-C

Honestly, I don't know about that. It really seems that they all kinda shit their pants when faced with Otsutsuki level power, including the strongest of these inners (outside of Jigen of course)

 

[Nierre]

NGL Code is probably going to be next on the copping block

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

NGL Code is probably going to be next on the copping block

Pre-awakening Code is kind of a fraud. Well......... So is awakened Code, but shhhhhhhhhhhh

 

[Damage3245]

Nierre makes sense to me. I'm in favor of the revision.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Boro in question:

Boro's kinda different since he has hax that allows him to beat basically anyone if they don't meet certain conditions

Victor in question:

Yeah he's just an exception idk

Deepa in question:

I'd like to see this statements in particular, since due to some of the characters that I mentioned, that is highly dubious. Let alone the fact that Koji was only comparable to an Unknown % Jigen.

I'm willing to say something like At least 6-C (feats), likely far higher, higher with Sage Mode, or something of the like.

Also about Koji vs Delta in particular, I don't think he scales in base, but it's fine for his Sage Mode to scale, as he did literally see her whole fight with Naruto, and he only considered Code and Boro as possible problems.

Honestly, I don't know about that. It really seems that they all kinda shit their pants when faced with Otsutsuki level power, including the strongest of these inners (outside of Jigen of course)

I mean Code is an Otsutsuki worshipper so I wouldn't take his word as gospel. We do know Code is Otsutsuki level via scaling, so if anything it's just High Otsutsuki level that's beyond them.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Powers doesn’t inherently mean stats, powers can refer to abilities and capabilities, like how super powers can encompass more than stats.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Sure but does Koji have non AP based ways of defeating enemies like Boro? Closest thing would be his eternally burning flames, but those still have to damage the opponent to be effective.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Sure but does Koji have non AP based ways of defeating enemies like Boro? Closest thing would be his eternally burning flames, but those still have to damage the opponent to be effective.

Sealing, all the sage hax, plus he technically is Otsutsuki level with Sage mode anyhow, he doesn’t need to be in base.

 

[Nierre]

This isn't even good evidence imo

Sasuke said there's a high likelihood, but he's not only is he not sure, he's never met any of the Inners at that point in time. The Databook refers to the Sasuke's speculation as well, which isn't giving hardcore/heavy evidence.

but it's fine for his Sage Mode to scale, as he did literally see her whole fight with Naruto, and he only considered Code and Boro as possible problems.

I mean I'd be worried about them two if I had to potentially 3v1 lol.

Once again, Koji has sealing jutsu, and he should potentially have every ability Jiraiya has, which can incapacitate Delta, even in base.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I mean Code is an Otsutsuki worshipper so I wouldn't take his word as gospel. We do know Code is Otsutsuki level via scaling, so if anything it's just High Otsutsuki level that's beyond them.

If by scaling, you mean vague-ish statements that scale him to Delta, then sure. Let's be honest, all of these Kara inners have trash feats outside of Jigen and Delta.

Sure but does Koji have non AP based ways of defeating enemies like Boro? Closest thing would be his eternally burning flames, but those still have to damage the opponent to be effective.

It's funny you should mention that. I'm working on a Jiraiya overhaul as we speak, and one thing I've learned is that Jiraiya actually has some impressive hax lol, way more than I remembered. So if we assume that KK has all of Jiraiya's abilties, which seems to be the case, then yeah he does actually have many non-AP options to defeat stronger opponents. But sticking to KK only, he does have Sealing.

 

[Nierre]

Also I see that SM Koji scales to a very casual Isshiki who was holding back due to blocking his punch. Wouldn't this be considered an outlier? Maybe I'm being too "strict" or whatever, but like - even after that exchange, Koji amps his punches with flames and does no damage, as Isshiki casually blocks them.

I'm not really sold on SM Koji scaling to an incredibly casual, possibly holding back Isshiki, but if most ppl think otherwise then ig I'll drop the SM point.

 

[TFO]

Nierre makes sense to me. I'm in favor of the revision.

So what’s the rules regarding acceptance? I’ve been out of the loop on that part of CRT’s for years…

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Also I see that SM Koji scales to a very casual Isshiki who was holding back due to blocking his punch. Wouldn't this be considered an outlier? Maybe I'm being too "strict" or whatever, but like - even after that exchange, Koji amps his punches with flames and does no damage, as Isshiki casually blocks them.

I'm not really sold on SM Koji scaling to an incredibly casual, possibly holding back Isshiki, but if most ppl think otherwise then ig I'll drop the SM point.

I feel exactly the same. Cause like, again, this guy is confirmed by his creator to be below Naruto and Sasuke, but he somehow performs better against a stronger opponent than the one who already stomped them. It just doesn't really add up imo. I think it's clear that Isshiki was not trying here.

So what’s the rules regarding acceptance? I’ve been out of the loop on that part of CRT’s for years…

Assuming you have sufficient staff approval, it takes 48 hours for you to be able to apply the accepted changes.

 

[TFO]

I feel exactly the same. Cause like, again, this guy is confirmed by his creator to be below Naruto and Sasuke, but he somehow performs better against a stronger opponent than the one who already stomped them. It just doesn't really add up imo. I think it's clear that Isshiki was not trying here.

Assuming you have sufficient staff approval, it takes 48 hours for you to be able to apply the accepted changes.

What constitutes “Sufficient”? 2 or more? 3 or more? And is it Starting from Moderator level or Admin only?

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

What constitutes “Sufficient”? 2 or more? 3 or more? And is it Starting from Moderator level or Admin only?

It's a case by case thing, but usually 2 or 3 will do the trick.
As for whose votes count, only thread moderators, Admins, and bureaucrats have voting rights.