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Naruto FTL+ Debunk
- Thread starter Fikriskps
- Start date
-
- Tags
- boruto (verse) ishiki jigen naruto
- Status
- 31,650
- 34,705
Seems reasonable.
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What will be the specific ratings for the affected characters after this?
Fikriskps
He/Him- 1,462
- 1,329
- Thread starter
- #125
Far Higher
All of them that was get FTL+ rating will get downgraded to Far Higher than FTL (Isshiki able to blitz both of Naruto and Sasuke in their all-out, even in the Jigen Karma form which is inferior than the overall strength of Isshiki's true power)
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The OP seems fine to me.
Fikriskps
He/Him- 1,462
- 1,329
- Thread starter
- #127
Thanks for the evaluation,
The summary of this thread here, we debunked the 10% context for multiplier of Jigen to Isshiki (true form) by adressing the inconsistency in narrative and the context that been manipulated by the previous thread. We intend to remove the FTL+ section, also since the reasoning for the Large Planet tier comes from the same premise, which is also a 10% condition of Jigen, we will also remove that. Turning Isshiki tier into "Far Higher than Planet Level" (scaled to Naruto).
i guess we already have a conclusion here
The summary of this thread here, we debunked the 10% context for multiplier of Jigen to Isshiki (true form) by adressing the inconsistency in narrative and the context that been manipulated by the previous thread. We intend to remove the FTL+ section, also since the reasoning for the Large Planet tier comes from the same premise, which is also a 10% condition of Jigen, we will also remove that. Turning Isshiki tier into "Far Higher than Planet Level" (scaled to Naruto).
i guess we already have a conclusion here
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Let me know once the changes have been applied, then I'll close the thread.
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no problem
ricatthegoat
He/Him- 204
- 74
argument looks solid, good one.
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Chill. This isn't needed.Are you illiterate? he is not saying that Jigen fought Naruto and Sasuke while using 10%, instead, he is saying the opposite. He was literally explaining on why that statement was incorrect, you need to read properly next time
As for the thread itself. It looks ok, though I agree with some of the points Shadow, Arc and a few others made regarding some of the OP.
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Sorry abt that
YoutubeForKing
He/Him- 1,066
- 482
Disagree FRA.
Kaguya point is horrendous its like saying because batman caught superman off gaurd he cant be far faster than him because of "mathematics"
The first point is irrelevant he still fought kashin koji at 10% who scales above that 2.11c feat plus every single character mentions has specific abilities that help againts speedblitzes.
Is point 3 assuming that amado said isshiki was at 10% and jigen wouldn't have access to 100% of his power anyways?
Kaguya point is horrendous its like saying because batman caught superman off gaurd he cant be far faster than him because of "mathematics"
The first point is irrelevant he still fought kashin koji at 10% who scales above that 2.11c feat plus every single character mentions has specific abilities that help againts speedblitzes.
Is point 3 assuming that amado said isshiki was at 10% and jigen wouldn't have access to 100% of his power anyways?
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Wow, actually the worst take. For all we know, he could've just not been watching her, and she stabbed him in the spine.
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Isshiki literally posses the Byakugan, an eye that gives him the ability see things from a far aswell as make him able to see in a 360° field of view. You're telling me a simple backstab would have easily caught him off guard?
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The Byakugan has a blind spot, but even so, it is not permanently active.
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Yes, actually. Is Neji now immune to ever being taken off-guard? Certainly a user of the Byakugan is passively looking in every direction, no?
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Kaguya injuring ishiki holds no weight since it's specifically an off guard feat. People need to stop using that to downplay ishiki
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Forgot about that, but this feat is still vague. There's not much context put into it meaning we don't really know what happened. But how about the panel where base Naruto managed to caught Isshiki off guard with ease from the side? because i don't think Isshiki can be easily caught off guard like that. Especially from the side, since our peripheral vision extends as far as 100° horizontally.
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RESPOND TO DEBUNKED NARUTO FTL+
There is an argument that leads to debunking the speed of Naruto ftl+, therefore I will just make theards immediately so that everyone can see that I will maintain that speed.
—• The post explains that Isshiki failed to get FTL+ speed because Jigen apparently spent 10% of his chakra when facing the Konoha duo, and the vsb party "he said" hid it, there it was also explained that there was an "inconsistency in chronological interpretation of VSB", and finally he said it was also explained that "Isshiki's original power in Jigen is actually Karma's object", but is the counter argument completely true like that? I will explain below, and I will give my point of argument to several points (according to the rebuttal point by point)
Let's go straight to the point of rebuttal:
—• Point I
At this point, you have a very fatal misunderstanding, we all know that Jigen has power below 10% in chapter 43 ( https://gyazo.com/c44b9fa8db55b50bce32060a420929d4 ) it is explained that Jigen uses too much chakra because he fought Naruto & Sasuke, it makes they both struggled ( https://gyazo.com/867b5c360a447f9a5608a886531e2769 ). And of course the conclusion that we get from some of the explanations above is that Jigen has power below 10% after fighting Naruro and Sasuk.
Now your misunderstanding occurs here, you assume that the thread explained by VSB is Jigen who fought Naruto and Sasuke, so Jigen 10% = Naruto and Sasuke, but thats not the context in it, the reason why Jigen 10% has the same speed balance with Naruto is because when his condition is 10%, he is able to fight with Koji
Koji who can consistently match Jigen's speed [¹] , of course this is relative to Jigen's speed, Koji who is able to beat Delta [²], where Delta himself is able to compete with Naruto [³], this scaling speed is what is meant by VSB side, not Jigen beat NaruSaru at 10%, misunderstanding for you at this point.
[¹] https://cdn.bakihanma.com/file/Zolyvmanga/boruto-naruto-next-generations/chapter-46/13.jpg
[²] https://imgur.io/a/h5fYzel
[³]
And also Koji said that he was able to defeat Delta (for scans: https://imgur.io/a/h5fYzel), for Delta himself to be able to significantly match Naruto's speed (), meaning the conclusion we get is Jigen's speed 10% = Koji = Delta = Naruto (no include Byron Mode)
And then, the conclusion reached this time is, Jigen is not known to use what percentage of his strength against the Konoha duo, but Jigen is known to only have 10% power when facing Koji, Jigen (10%) himself was shown very consistently against Koji, of course this make sure that 10% speed Jigen get at least FTL
To rebut your first point, here you get some fallacies:
• Straw Man
• No Limit Fallacy
—• Point II
1st objection:
At this point, you are bringing a case that is actually quite different, but that's not a problem, because this also includes a rebuttal argument. Immediately, here the gist of your argument at this point is to state that "If Isshiki was 10× faster during his first mode on Earth because he wasn't injured yet, does it make sense for Kaguya who was 10× slower to hurt him?". The answer, of course bro, as we know, is that it hasn't been explained in what way Kaguya betrayed (this is an additional thing that is very easy to refute), but basically Kaguya made Isshiki die with Off Guard, this of course can happen, and the entry into the "Outlier" context, if you think "no way, the speed is 10× stronger", of course it is possible,
As we know, Madara himself has Ftl speed (for calculations you can see: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:M3X/Naruto:_Naruto_dodged_Light_Fang ), when PDS4 Madara already has victory conditions, of course this making Madara careless and feeling too much that no one can beat him (including the Konoha duo), and Zetsu, where he sided with Madara, betrayed Madara himself to revive Kaguya, is this an "inconsistency" thing? no bro, this happened because of "Off Guard" from one side, Zetsu himself is known to have speed that is not up to sol [⁴], but he is able to off guard Madara himself, this happened because at first they were allies
[⁴] https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Zetsu
This is the same thing as Kaguya who made Isshiki die, Kaguya explained "made Isshiki die off guard" not "be able to make Isshiki die while fighting him", Kaguya was not even able to kill Isshiki, of course this makes your argument irrelevant. once because it was too "forced" the obvious thing was "Off Guard"
2nd objection:
For the final rebuttal, I'm not going to discuss the same thing here as before, because I want to argue about the "inconsistency" you explained which in my opinion is not relative.
Naruto himself is described as capable of onpar with Kaguya, he has even made several blizts to Kaguya, this certainly proves that Naruto = Kaguya's speed, but on the other hand, this is different when Naruto fights Ishiki, the thing that "should" happen when Naruto faces Isshiki is them arguing with each other because of the scaling speed earlier, if you say "it's impossible for an Off Guard char that has 10× faster than us" that's very wrong, "Off Guard" can't be pegged to how many times the power it has, Off Guard occurs due to Isshiki's "inattentiveness" on Isshiki's part, of course Kaguya can take advantage of this carelessness, if you think Kaguya "supposedly" has the same speed as Isshiki because she can off guard,Naruto shouldn't be hit by multiple blizzards, not just blazed, Naruto couldn't even match Isshiki's speed
This is of course something that proves that Kaguya really has a big difference in statistics with Isshiki, she is also dying because in Off Guard, not a direct fight, it's even known how Kaguya attacked Isshiki with Off Guard
For an example here I will give: let's say there is a car that can run by itself without any rest/time limit, it has a speed of 10× faster than us, but when it stops for a moment because it "feels" itself able to avoid attacks from humans normal, he immediately fell into the human trap and his speed advantage was useless because of "Off Guard"
3rd objection:
As I explained earlier, it is not yet known how Kaguya made Isshiki die, the information currently available is that Kaguya made Isshiki die in the Off Guard case, now there are other factors that prove that this really does not affect the consistency of speed in case by case chronology , just go straight to explanation
Isshiki himself when fighting Naruto Byron was defeated even though in the end Naruto didn't have enough time and Isshiki again defeated the Konoha duo, after that Isshiki wanted to plant a container for Kawaki, Kawaki himself at that time was able to trick Isshiki with a basic jutsu, namely "Kagebunshin No Jutsu" , Isshiki couldn't even tell which ones were clones and which ones were genuine, it's not known exactly why Isshiki didn't know it, but one thing is clear, using market jutsu or "ordinary" jutsu can trick Isshiki
Then, this is additional strong evidence to prove that Kaguya does not have the same stats as Isshiki, Isshiki could have been tricked by Kaguya with another jutsu to trick Isshiki off guard because as I explained earlier, Isshiki can't even distinguish between clones and people. original, soo up here for my rebuttal.
The essence of the point there is a response this time is:
→ Exactly the same case as Zetsu, but it only belongs to the "Outlier" context
→ Power scaling which is not relative because of the inconsistencies that you describe
→ Various ways Kaguya made Isshiki die, plus an explanation where he made Isshiki die with the "Off Guard" case
Soo, the conclusion you get from your argument is that you are too hasty in interpreting a context, this makes all your arguments subjective, not leading to objective matters, of course this is absolutely certain to contain No Limit Fallacy, and Halt Truth Fallacy.
—• Point III
For the last point, here I will discuss about Jigen being able to use 100% of Isshiki's power, actually this does not affect the conclusion on this topic because it is quite "Out Of Topic" but no problem, I will still respond to your counter argument this time
Let's go straight to the point, Jigen himself has never used 100% Isshiki, of course this is supported by the fight between Jigen vs Duo Konoha, Jigen who "said" can use 100% of Isshiki's power but there are still many mistakes that occur, here I will share several factors support that Jigen cannot be equalized with 100% power Isshiki, lets see my explanation :
Factor 1 :
Jigen isn't as strong as Ishiki has many different aspects in terms of chakra, ap, speed, ninjutsu, doujutsu, it already has quite a big difference, Jigen himself his speed can still be matched by the Konoha duo [⁵], but if we look at it from the side different, Isshiki can't even be attacked by Naruto or Sasuke [⁶], of course this is pretty strong evidence because as we know, chakra affects statistics on a char (I will explain below), and Jigen who "he said "Having 100% chakra can still be balanced by Isshiki, unlike Isshiki himself, he even beat up the Konoha duo, not even being touched.
[⁵] https://cdn.bakihanma.com/file/Zoly...t-generations/chapter-38-he-s-bad-news/21.jpg
[⁶]
For the explanation of chakras, I will explain briefly:
Chakra can also affect statistics on a char, like the scene below, where speed will drop drastically if chakra is low, of course this is enough to prove that chakra can increase speed, and the speed itself slows down if chakra is low
https://blogger.googleusercontent.c...95ek67Iq3Nzx_GEXaLyKNOEg5xsJdIUyPHvlndWsP-OUn IFIXSNF9zuow3NpHskm3kbhiyOp0x59JF7l4rnLEwPkM4Hwx-kSwjCAXLvmz2ETsrXvZhF5Ll6/s1600/14.jpg
You can also see in the other scans that it looks like Shikamaru whose speed drops drastically when his chakra is almost depleted, and his speed is normal when he has enough or a lot of chakra
https://youtu.be/dhexA5grshQ
For other proof, here you can see that shinobi are able to increase their physical abilities by using chakra to increase their speed by focusing chakra on their feet, this is a basic shinobi technique where naturally every shinobi who makes moves is already in this technique
The Mechanics of Chakra Enhancement
vsbattles.fandom.com
https://imgur.com/gallery/wHi3SQC
From some of the proofs and explanations that I put out, here we can conclude that chakra = speed, and if a chakra increases on a char, then the speed of the chat itself will increase according to the chakra possessed by that char
Factor 2 :
At this factor, Jigen should be shown using Isshiki's basic jutsu, because karma users when they "activate" their karma alone, will relatively issue their respective special abilities, for example like Boruto who can perform the ability Battle Field Removal [⁷], and this is things that should be displayed when Jigen is able to really use 100% of Isshiki's power:
• Dharmagan
• Sukunahikona
• Daikokuten
• Iron Box (I forget what it's called)
↑
That was the basic jutsu that should be displayed if Jigen really can use 100% of Isshiki's power (although not permanently), especially in his Doujutsu named Dharmagan, because Dharmagan himself has been shown to have never been inactive since the first time Isshiki appeared in the Boruto manga, and this is It should also be displayed on Jigen who "said" has 100% of Isshiki's power
[⁷] https://imgur.com/a/SGCafpg
Gyazo
gyazo.com
And yeah, this is the last thing in my pro argument this time, and the conclusion on this factor is that if Jigen is really able to use 100% of Isshiki's power, then Jigen should also be able to cast Isshiki's basic jutsu.
—• Responsive Conclusion.
The conclusion I get from my Pro argument about the multiplier is:
→ Misunderstanding about claiming speed, because it looks like you think that Jigen at 10% has the same speed as Naruto because Jigen 10% is facing them, even though Naruto is stated to have equal speed with Jigen 10%, because of the scaling chain between Koji, Delta , and Jigen himself.
→ Too stuck with the phrase "10× better power", even though there are many things you don't pay attention to such as the occurrence of Outliers, Isshiki who doesn't have more extensive experience because he is still very easy to trick, and the speed is very inconsistent.
→Too focused on one particular aspect, even though there are still many variations of things that can be concluded for an argument, and the explanation I gave is much more supportive and makes sense because they scale each other's karma, like Boruto and Jigen.
And then overall, here I see that this counter-argument is correct, but too much ignores other things that greatly affect this argument, this is what makes this counter-argument imperfect, plus there is a misunderstanding with the cons, making this easier to be refuted.
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yeah
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Looks good, i agree
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RESPOND TO DEBUNKED NARUTO FTL+
There is an argument that leads to debunking the speed of Naruto ftl+, therefore I will just make theards immediately so that everyone can see that I will maintain that speed.
—• The post explains that Isshiki failed to get FTL+ speed because Jigen apparently spent 10% of his chakra when facing the Konoha duo, and the vsb party "he said" hid it, there it was also explained that there was an "inconsistency in chronological interpretation of VSB", and finally he said it was also explained that "Isshiki's original power in Jigen is actually Karma's object", but is the counter argument completely true like that? I will explain below, and I will give my point of argument to several points (according to the rebuttal point by point)
Let's go straight to the point of rebuttal:
—• Point I
At this point, you have a very fatal misunderstanding, we all know that Jigen has power below 10% in chapter 43 ( https://gyazo.com/c44b9fa8db55b50bce32060a420929d4 ) it is explained that Jigen uses too much chakra because he fought Naruto & Sasuke, it makes they both struggled ( https://gyazo.com/867b5c360a447f9a5608a886531e2769 ). And of course the conclusion that we get from some of the explanations above is that Jigen has power below 10% after fighting Naruro and Sasuk.
Now your misunderstanding occurs here, you assume that the thread explained by VSB is Jigen who fought Naruto and Sasuke, so Jigen 10% = Naruto and Sasuke, but thats not the context in it, the reason why Jigen 10% has the same speed balance with Naruto is because when his condition is 10%, he is able to fight with Koji
Koji who can consistently match Jigen's speed [¹] , of course this is relative to Jigen's speed, Koji who is able to beat Delta [²], where Delta himself is able to compete with Naruto [³], this scaling speed is what is meant by VSB side, not Jigen beat NaruSaru at 10%, misunderstanding for you at this point.
[¹] https://cdn.bakihanma.com/file/Zolyvmanga/boruto-naruto-next-generations/chapter-46/13.jpg
[²] https://imgur.io/a/h5fYzel
[³]
And also Koji said that he was able to defeat Delta (for scans: https://imgur.io/a/h5fYzel), for Delta himself to be able to significantly match Naruto's speed (), meaning the conclusion we get is Jigen's speed 10% = Koji = Delta = Naruto (no include Byron Mode)
And then, the conclusion reached this time is, Jigen is not known to use what percentage of his strength against the Konoha duo, but Jigen is known to only have 10% power when facing Koji, Jigen (10%) himself was shown very consistently against Koji, of course this make sure that 10% speed Jigen get at least FTL
To rebut your first point, here you get some fallacies:
• Straw Man
• No Limit Fallacy
—• Point II
1st objection:
At this point, you are bringing a case that is actually quite different, but that's not a problem, because this also includes a rebuttal argument. Immediately, here the gist of your argument at this point is to state that "If Isshiki was 10× faster during his first mode on Earth because he wasn't injured yet, does it make sense for Kaguya who was 10× slower to hurt him?". The answer, of course bro, as we know, is that it hasn't been explained in what way Kaguya betrayed (this is an additional thing that is very easy to refute), but basically Kaguya made Isshiki die with Off Guard, this of course can happen, and the entry into the "Outlier" context, if you think "no way, the speed is 10× stronger", of course it is possible,
As we know, Madara himself has Ftl speed (for calculations you can see: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:M3X/Naruto:_Naruto_dodged_Light_Fang ), when PDS4 Madara already has victory conditions, of course this making Madara careless and feeling too much that no one can beat him (including the Konoha duo), and Zetsu, where he sided with Madara, betrayed Madara himself to revive Kaguya, is this an "inconsistency" thing? no bro, this happened because of "Off Guard" from one side, Zetsu himself is known to have speed that is not up to sol [⁴], but he is able to off guard Madara himself, this happened because at first they were allies
[⁴] https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Zetsu
This is the same thing as Kaguya who made Isshiki die, Kaguya explained "made Isshiki die off guard" not "be able to make Isshiki die while fighting him", Kaguya was not even able to kill Isshiki, of course this makes your argument irrelevant. once because it was too "forced" the obvious thing was "Off Guard"
2nd objection:
For the final rebuttal, I'm not going to discuss the same thing here as before, because I want to argue about the "inconsistency" you explained which in my opinion is not relative.
Naruto himself is described as capable of onpar with Kaguya, he has even made several blizts to Kaguya, this certainly proves that Naruto = Kaguya's speed, but on the other hand, this is different when Naruto fights Ishiki, the thing that "should" happen when Naruto faces Isshiki is them arguing with each other because of the scaling speed earlier, if you say "it's impossible for an Off Guard char that has 10× faster than us" that's very wrong, "Off Guard" can't be pegged to how many times the power it has, Off Guard occurs due to Isshiki's "inattentiveness" on Isshiki's part, of course Kaguya can take advantage of this carelessness, if you think Kaguya "supposedly" has the same speed as Isshiki because she can off guard,Naruto shouldn't be hit by multiple blizzards, not just blazed, Naruto couldn't even match Isshiki's speed
This is of course something that proves that Kaguya really has a big difference in statistics with Isshiki, she is also dying because in Off Guard, not a direct fight, it's even known how Kaguya attacked Isshiki with Off Guard
For an example here I will give: let's say there is a car that can run by itself without any rest/time limit, it has a speed of 10× faster than us, but when it stops for a moment because it "feels" itself able to avoid attacks from humans normal, he immediately fell into the human trap and his speed advantage was useless because of "Off Guard"
3rd objection:
As I explained earlier, it is not yet known how Kaguya made Isshiki die, the information currently available is that Kaguya made Isshiki die in the Off Guard case, now there are other factors that prove that this really does not affect the consistency of speed in case by case chronology , just go straight to explanation
Isshiki himself when fighting Naruto Byron was defeated even though in the end Naruto didn't have enough time and Isshiki again defeated the Konoha duo, after that Isshiki wanted to plant a container for Kawaki, Kawaki himself at that time was able to trick Isshiki with a basic jutsu, namely "Kagebunshin No Jutsu" , Isshiki couldn't even tell which ones were clones and which ones were genuine, it's not known exactly why Isshiki didn't know it, but one thing is clear, using market jutsu or "ordinary" jutsu can trick Isshiki
Then, this is additional strong evidence to prove that Kaguya does not have the same stats as Isshiki, Isshiki could have been tricked by Kaguya with another jutsu to trick Isshiki off guard because as I explained earlier, Isshiki can't even distinguish between clones and people. original, soo up here for my rebuttal.
The essence of the point there is a response this time is:
→ Exactly the same case as Zetsu, but it only belongs to the "Outlier" context
→ Power scaling which is not relative because of the inconsistencies that you describe
→ Various ways Kaguya made Isshiki die, plus an explanation where he made Isshiki die with the "Off Guard" case
Soo, the conclusion you get from your argument is that you are too hasty in interpreting a context, this makes all your arguments subjective, not leading to objective matters, of course this is absolutely certain to contain No Limit Fallacy, and Halt Truth Fallacy.
—• Point III
For the last point, here I will discuss about Jigen being able to use 100% of Isshiki's power, actually this does not affect the conclusion on this topic because it is quite "Out Of Topic" but no problem, I will still respond to your counter argument this time
Let's go straight to the point, Jigen himself has never used 100% Isshiki, of course this is supported by the fight between Jigen vs Duo Konoha, Jigen who "said" can use 100% of Isshiki's power but there are still many mistakes that occur, here I will share several factors support that Jigen cannot be equalized with 100% power Isshiki, lets see my explanation :
Factor 1 :
Jigen isn't as strong as Ishiki has many different aspects in terms of chakra, ap, speed, ninjutsu, doujutsu, it already has quite a big difference, Jigen himself his speed can still be matched by the Konoha duo [⁵], but if we look at it from the side different, Isshiki can't even be attacked by Naruto or Sasuke [⁶], of course this is pretty strong evidence because as we know, chakra affects statistics on a char (I will explain below), and Jigen who "he said "Having 100% chakra can still be balanced by Isshiki, unlike Isshiki himself, he even beat up the Konoha duo, not even being touched.
[⁵] https://cdn.bakihanma.com/file/Zoly...t-generations/chapter-38-he-s-bad-news/21.jpg
[⁶]
For the explanation of chakras, I will explain briefly:
Chakra can also affect statistics on a char, like the scene below, where speed will drop drastically if chakra is low, of course this is enough to prove that chakra can increase speed, and the speed itself slows down if chakra is low
https://blogger.googleusercontent.c...95ek67Iq3Nzx_GEXaLyKNOEg5xsJdIUyPHvlndWsP-OUn IFIXSNF9zuow3NpHskm3kbhiyOp0x59JF7l4rnLEwPkM4Hwx-kSwjCAXLvmz2ETsrXvZhF5Ll6/s1600/14.jpg
You can also see in the other scans that it looks like Shikamaru whose speed drops drastically when his chakra is almost depleted, and his speed is normal when he has enough or a lot of chakra
https://youtu.be/dhexA5grshQ
For other proof, here you can see that shinobi are able to increase their physical abilities by using chakra to increase their speed by focusing chakra on their feet, this is a basic shinobi technique where naturally every shinobi who makes moves is already in this technique
The Mechanics of Chakra Enhancement
https://imgur.com/gallery/wHi3SQC
From some of the proofs and explanations that I put out, here we can conclude that chakra = speed, and if a chakra increases on a char, then the speed of the chat itself will increase according to the chakra possessed by that char
Factor 2 :
At this factor, Jigen should be shown using Isshiki's basic jutsu, because karma users when they "activate" their karma alone, will relatively issue their respective special abilities, for example like Boruto who can perform the ability Battle Field Removal [⁷], and this is things that should be displayed when Jigen is able to really use 100% of Isshiki's power:
• Dharmagan
• Sukunahikona
• Daikokuten
• Iron Box (I forget what it's called)
↑
That was the basic jutsu that should be displayed if Jigen really can use 100% of Isshiki's power (although not permanently), especially in his Doujutsu named Dharmagan, because Dharmagan himself has been shown to have never been inactive since the first time Isshiki appeared in the Boruto manga, and this is It should also be displayed on Jigen who "said" has 100% of Isshiki's power
[⁷] https://imgur.com/a/SGCafpg
Gyazo
And yeah, this is the last thing in my pro argument this time, and the conclusion on this factor is that if Jigen is really able to use 100% of Isshiki's power, then Jigen should also be able to cast Isshiki's basic jutsu.
—• Responsive Conclusion.
The conclusion I get from my Pro argument about the multiplier is:
→ Misunderstanding about claiming speed, because it looks like you think that Jigen at 10% has the same speed as Naruto because Jigen 10% is facing them, even though Naruto is stated to have equal speed with Jigen 10%, because of the scaling chain between Koji, Delta , and Jigen himself.
→ Too stuck with the phrase "10× better power", even though there are many things you don't pay attention to such as the occurrence of Outliers, Isshiki who doesn't have more extensive experience because he is still very easy to trick, and the speed is very inconsistent.
→Too focused on one particular aspect, even though there are still many variations of things that can be concluded for an argument, and the explanation I gave is much more supportive and makes sense because they scale each other's karma, like Boruto and Jigen.
And then overall, here I see that this counter-argument is correct, but too much ignores other things that greatly affect this argument, this is what makes this counter-argument imperfect, plus there is a misunderstanding with the cons, making this easier to be refuted.
You knew you would be ignored anyways at this point its just easier to wait until this gets closed and try again.
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Keep in mind that you should wait 2-4 months before attempting to tackle the same topic.
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This topic doesnt exist because the only argument that holds any level of relevance is a mistake because the author didnt read the thread that the 10x multiplier was applied.
Because the staff members dont actually keep up with Naruto now you expect to wait 2 month to talk about a mistake? Great rules you have there
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BTW that rules is for rejected threads this one was accepted so any debunking doesnt have to wait as far as i know
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I understand you completely but Chill man best to tackle this again later anyway sense several revisions to the verse will be made
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Believe it or not, people are allowed to disagree with you.
Only if there was no significant opposition. That is not the case here.
ZENZUYA
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RESPOND TO DEBUNKED NARUTO FTL+
There is an argument that leads to debunking the speed of Naruto ftl+, therefore I will just make theards immediately so that everyone can see that I will maintain that speed.
—• The post explains that Isshiki failed to get FTL+ speed because Jigen apparently spent 10% of his chakra when facing the Konoha duo, and the vsb party "he said" hid it, there it was also explained that there was an "inconsistency in chronological interpretation of VSB", and finally he said it was also explained that "Isshiki's original power in Jigen is actually Karma's object", but is the counter argument completely true like that? I will explain below, and I will give my point of argument to several points (according to the rebuttal point by point)
Let's go straight to the point of rebuttal:
—• Point I
At this point, you have a very fatal misunderstanding, we all know that Jigen has power below 10% in chapter 43 ( https://gyazo.com/c44b9fa8db55b50bce32060a420929d4 ) it is explained that Jigen uses too much chakra because he fought Naruto & Sasuke, it makes they both struggled ( https://gyazo.com/867b5c360a447f9a5608a886531e2769 ). And of course the conclusion that we get from some of the explanations above is that Jigen has power below 10% after fighting Naruro and Sasuk.
Now your misunderstanding occurs here, you assume that the thread explained by VSB is Jigen who fought Naruto and Sasuke, so Jigen 10% = Naruto and Sasuke, but thats not the context in it, the reason why Jigen 10% has the same speed balance with Naruto is because when his condition is 10%, he is able to fight with Koji
Koji who can consistently match Jigen's speed [¹] , of course this is relative to Jigen's speed, Koji who is able to beat Delta [²], where Delta himself is able to compete with Naruto [³], this scaling speed is what is meant by VSB side, not Jigen beat NaruSaru at 10%, misunderstanding for you at this point.
[¹] https://cdn.bakihanma.com/file/Zolyvmanga/boruto-naruto-next-generations/chapter-46/13.jpg
[²] https://imgur.io/a/h5fYzel
[³]
And also Koji said that he was able to defeat Delta (for scans: https://imgur.io/a/h5fYzel), for Delta himself to be able to significantly match Naruto's speed (), meaning the conclusion we get is Jigen's speed 10% = Koji = Delta = Naruto (no include Byron Mode)
And then, the conclusion reached this time is, Jigen is not known to use what percentage of his strength against the Konoha duo, but Jigen is known to only have 10% power when facing Koji, Jigen (10%) himself was shown very consistently against Koji, of course this make sure that 10% speed Jigen get at least FTL
To rebut your first point, here you get some fallacies:
• Straw Man
• No Limit Fallacy
—• Point II
1st objection:
At this point, you are bringing a case that is actually quite different, but that's not a problem, because this also includes a rebuttal argument. Immediately, here the gist of your argument at this point is to state that "If Isshiki was 10× faster during his first mode on Earth because he wasn't injured yet, does it make sense for Kaguya who was 10× slower to hurt him?". The answer, of course bro, as we know, is that it hasn't been explained in what way Kaguya betrayed (this is an additional thing that is very easy to refute), but basically Kaguya made Isshiki die with Off Guard, this of course can happen, and the entry into the "Outlier" context, if you think "no way, the speed is 10× stronger", of course it is possible,
As we know, Madara himself has Ftl speed (for calculations you can see: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:M3X/Naruto:_Naruto_dodged_Light_Fang ), when PDS4 Madara already has victory conditions, of course this making Madara careless and feeling too much that no one can beat him (including the Konoha duo), and Zetsu, where he sided with Madara, betrayed Madara himself to revive Kaguya, is this an "inconsistency" thing? no bro, this happened because of "Off Guard" from one side, Zetsu himself is known to have speed that is not up to sol [⁴], but he is able to off guard Madara himself, this happened because at first they were allies
[⁴] https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Zetsu
This is the same thing as Kaguya who made Isshiki die, Kaguya explained "made Isshiki die off guard" not "be able to make Isshiki die while fighting him", Kaguya was not even able to kill Isshiki, of course this makes your argument irrelevant. once because it was too "forced" the obvious thing was "Off Guard"
2nd objection:
For the final rebuttal, I'm not going to discuss the same thing here as before, because I want to argue about the "inconsistency" you explained which in my opinion is not relative.
Naruto himself is described as capable of onpar with Kaguya, he has even made several blizts to Kaguya, this certainly proves that Naruto = Kaguya's speed, but on the other hand, this is different when Naruto fights Ishiki, the thing that "should" happen when Naruto faces Isshiki is them arguing with each other because of the scaling speed earlier, if you say "it's impossible for an Off Guard char that has 10× faster than us" that's very wrong, "Off Guard" can't be pegged to how many times the power it has, Off Guard occurs due to Isshiki's "inattentiveness" on Isshiki's part, of course Kaguya can take advantage of this carelessness, if you think Kaguya "supposedly" has the same speed as Isshiki because she can off guard,Naruto shouldn't be hit by multiple blizzards, not just blazed, Naruto couldn't even match Isshiki's speed
This is of course something that proves that Kaguya really has a big difference in statistics with Isshiki, she is also dying because in Off Guard, not a direct fight, it's even known how Kaguya attacked Isshiki with Off Guard
For an example here I will give: let's say there is a car that can run by itself without any rest/time limit, it has a speed of 10× faster than us, but when it stops for a moment because it "feels" itself able to avoid attacks from humans normal, he immediately fell into the human trap and his speed advantage was useless because of "Off Guard"
3rd objection:
As I explained earlier, it is not yet known how Kaguya made Isshiki die, the information currently available is that Kaguya made Isshiki die in the Off Guard case, now there are other factors that prove that this really does not affect the consistency of speed in case by case chronology , just go straight to explanation
Isshiki himself when fighting Naruto Byron was defeated even though in the end Naruto didn't have enough time and Isshiki again defeated the Konoha duo, after that Isshiki wanted to plant a container for Kawaki, Kawaki himself at that time was able to trick Isshiki with a basic jutsu, namely "Kagebunshin No Jutsu" , Isshiki couldn't even tell which ones were clones and which ones were genuine, it's not known exactly why Isshiki didn't know it, but one thing is clear, using market jutsu or "ordinary" jutsu can trick Isshiki
Then, this is additional strong evidence to prove that Kaguya does not have the same stats as Isshiki, Isshiki could have been tricked by Kaguya with another jutsu to trick Isshiki off guard because as I explained earlier, Isshiki can't even distinguish between clones and people. original, soo up here for my rebuttal.
The essence of the point there is a response this time is:
→ Exactly the same case as Zetsu, but it only belongs to the "Outlier" context
→ Power scaling which is not relative because of the inconsistencies that you describe
→ Various ways Kaguya made Isshiki die, plus an explanation where he made Isshiki die with the "Off Guard" case
Soo, the conclusion you get from your argument is that you are too hasty in interpreting a context, this makes all your arguments subjective, not leading to objective matters, of course this is absolutely certain to contain No Limit Fallacy, and Halt Truth Fallacy.
—• Point III
For the last point, here I will discuss about Jigen being able to use 100% of Isshiki's power, actually this does not affect the conclusion on this topic because it is quite "Out Of Topic" but no problem, I will still respond to your counter argument this time
Let's go straight to the point, Jigen himself has never used 100% Isshiki, of course this is supported by the fight between Jigen vs Duo Konoha, Jigen who "said" can use 100% of Isshiki's power but there are still many mistakes that occur, here I will share several factors support that Jigen cannot be equalized with 100% power Isshiki, lets see my explanation :
Factor 1 :
Jigen isn't as strong as Ishiki has many different aspects in terms of chakra, ap, speed, ninjutsu, doujutsu, it already has quite a big difference, Jigen himself his speed can still be matched by the Konoha duo [⁵], but if we look at it from the side different, Isshiki can't even be attacked by Naruto or Sasuke [⁶], of course this is pretty strong evidence because as we know, chakra affects statistics on a char (I will explain below), and Jigen who "he said "Having 100% chakra can still be balanced by Isshiki, unlike Isshiki himself, he even beat up the Konoha duo, not even being touched.
[⁵] https://cdn.bakihanma.com/file/Zoly...t-generations/chapter-38-he-s-bad-news/21.jpg
[⁶]
For the explanation of chakras, I will explain briefly:
Chakra can also affect statistics on a char, like the scene below, where speed will drop drastically if chakra is low, of course this is enough to prove that chakra can increase speed, and the speed itself slows down if chakra is low
https://blogger.googleusercontent.c...95ek67Iq3Nzx_GEXaLyKNOEg5xsJdIUyPHvlndWsP-OUn IFIXSNF9zuow3NpHskm3kbhiyOp0x59JF7l4rnLEwPkM4Hwx-kSwjCAXLvmz2ETsrXvZhF5Ll6/s1600/14.jpg
You can also see in the other scans that it looks like Shikamaru whose speed drops drastically when his chakra is almost depleted, and his speed is normal when he has enough or a lot of chakra
https://youtu.be/dhexA5grshQ
For other proof, here you can see that shinobi are able to increase their physical abilities by using chakra to increase their speed by focusing chakra on their feet, this is a basic shinobi technique where naturally every shinobi who makes moves is already in this technique
The Mechanics of Chakra Enhancement
https://imgur.com/gallery/wHi3SQC
From some of the proofs and explanations that I put out, here we can conclude that chakra = speed, and if a chakra increases on a char, then the speed of the chat itself will increase according to the chakra possessed by that char
Factor 2 :
At this factor, Jigen should be shown using Isshiki's basic jutsu, because karma users when they "activate" their karma alone, will relatively issue their respective special abilities, for example like Boruto who can perform the ability Battle Field Removal [⁷], and this is things that should be displayed when Jigen is able to really use 100% of Isshiki's power:
• Dharmagan
• Sukunahikona
• Daikokuten
• Iron Box (I forget what it's called)
↑
That was the basic jutsu that should be displayed if Jigen really can use 100% of Isshiki's power (although not permanently), especially in his Doujutsu named Dharmagan, because Dharmagan himself has been shown to have never been inactive since the first time Isshiki appeared in the Boruto manga, and this is It should also be displayed on Jigen who "said" has 100% of Isshiki's power
[⁷] https://imgur.com/a/SGCafpg
Gyazo
And yeah, this is the last thing in my pro argument this time, and the conclusion on this factor is that if Jigen is really able to use 100% of Isshiki's power, then Jigen should also be able to cast Isshiki's basic jutsu.
—• Responsive Conclusion.
The conclusion I get from my Pro argument about the multiplier is:
→ Misunderstanding about claiming speed, because it looks like you think that Jigen at 10% has the same speed as Naruto because Jigen 10% is facing them, even though Naruto is stated to have equal speed with Jigen 10%, because of the scaling chain between Koji, Delta , and Jigen himself.
→ Too stuck with the phrase "10× better power", even though there are many things you don't pay attention to such as the occurrence of Outliers, Isshiki who doesn't have more extensive experience because he is still very easy to trick, and the speed is very inconsistent.
→Too focused on one particular aspect, even though there are still many variations of things that can be concluded for an argument, and the explanation I gave is much more supportive and makes sense because they scale each other's karma, like Boruto and Jigen.
And then overall, here I see that this counter-argument is correct, but too much ignores other things that greatly affect this argument, this is what makes this counter-argument imperfect, plus there is a misunderstanding with the cons, making this easier to be refuted.
Well bruh wtf is this
There are a lot of misses when viewed from the topic Many methods are getting triggered too much in your arguments ( Man really got outlier for some issue )
-Do you have any other explanation for why their two stats are different?
- To be honest, it won't be significant if taken from ishiki who is off guard
-Where did you get this? the topic almost deviated from the scale obtained
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This is a scan of the same thread that accepted the FTL+ where you can see why Ishiki 10% was scaled to Naruto, which is the only argument here that holds any value. Which proves that you and others did not read it and this same thread is based on a wrong misunderstanding
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• I see, I don't think I have another explanation (maybe?) because the previous explanation is consistent and significant for applying statistical comparisons to determine the final result, why? Do you not understand the context? It's best to ignore and not reply to my comment if you don't understand, asking a very strange thing "don't you have another reason?", If I have another reason. That means I will consider it first without having to finish it this fast, please provide input that doesn't upset me, think rationally, smartly and make sense. To be honest, your statement is really not important to display, it's best not to ask that again, just ask something that makes sense and isn't embarrassing. Do you understand¿?
• insignificant? are you kidding? we can see in case the first time isshiki appeared himself who was betrayed by Kaguya, when that happened, kaguya was just a subordinate of the princes and even the high-ranking outsutsuki which of course kaguya's stats at that time were normal, because there he wasn't has a very strong power as it is now. now the statement is that kaguya, who has statistics below isshiki, can trick isshiki easily and can betray by sticking something into isshiki's stomach to make him dying and come down to earth to put his karma on jigen, then what is insignificant in your opinion? still lacking? will add more. there it is clear that isshiki is off guard because he thinks rationally, he thinks kaguya is a loyal subordinate and will never betray, in fact Kaguya is a traitor. from some of my statements, including "isshiki off guard" into the argument is very consistent and significant.
• What's more!!!??????? Where did you get this? You are still asking things that are not important at all to be discussed at this opportunity, man, stop pissing me off. Here I need a statement that makes sense so that I can respond using common sense without the slightest anger, like the words "expectations don't match reality", yes, that's what I'm experiencing right now. The topic doesn't deviate from the scale obtained, you can't understand it well enough to immediately speculate that it deviates. Man, think before you speak, prioritize reading, explore, understand, and understand every context so you don't misunderstand again, man, you made 2 mistakes that led to going off topic, because your mindset is not worthy of being emulated by others, a stupid mindset.
All of these statements that you convey are just nonsense that arise from your own mind, or are you just looking for sensations??? Dude, it's best if your thoughts like this are kept closed and not published so as not to trigger a debate that is out of the main topic.
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