Naruto FTL+ Debunk

[Rau]

Agreed

 

[SlendVeny]

-Do you have any other explanation for why their two stats are different?

Does this mean Isshiki and Kaguya?

 

[Tamasensei123]

I think we got the result, can we apply the changes now?

 

[Fikriskps]

Hold on lemme get an admin to open the profile

 

[Khanhba01]

Summary​

This all started with a thread on VSB: ( This Thread ) --- The thread explained that the Jigen that Naruto and Sasuke fought against was only 10% of its original power, so if it fought with 100% of its original power, it would be 10 times faster and stronger as well. Is it that simple? The answer is no, and the thread hides many facts. Or it can be said that it only presents the logic that suits the wishes of its supporters, objectively there are many contexts that are ignored so here I will refute the premise. I will argue with 3 main points; "The percentage of Jigen's power that is misinterpreted", "The inconsistency of the VSB thread's chronological interpretation", "Isshiki's original power in Jigen is actually based on Karma objections".

Lets Get To The Point​

Spoiler: PERCENTAGE OF MISINTERPRETED JIGEN STRENGTH

The main problem with the VSB-approved interpretation is that Jigen was at 10% when he first fought Naruto and Sasuke, which is actually a concealment of a crucial fact. It should be noted that Amado statement that Jigen was at less than 10% power was in chapter 43 of Boruto.

It is necessary to first explain the reason why Amado said the percentage of Jigen power, which is because at that time Jigen lost a lot of chakra due to overusing it when fighting the Konoha Duo explained in chapter 46, That meant the reason Jigen was at less than 10% strength was because he lost a lot of Chakra while fighting the Konoha duo.

Why is that? Because in chapter 39, we were clearly shown the interaction between Jigen and Amado who mentioned that in just 2 days, Jigen could fill his chakra tank again, Back at around chapter 38, Isshiki was there fighting with everything he had against Duo Konoha. The effect damaged Jigen's vessel because the amount of energy he expended damaged and minimized his time lifespan, which is why as soon as Duo Konoha lost and Jigen was at his limit, he didn't go after Sasuke and didn't kill Naruto because his power was depleted as in chapter 39.

That meant in his condition, Jigen fought to the max against the Konoha Duo. Only after fighting, he lost a lot of chakra until the quantity was empty and it took several days to recover. It doesn't mean that Jigen who fought the Konoha Duo only fought with 10% as interpreted by VSB. So from this, it can be clearly seen the Half-Truth Fallacy by the thread, which is to hide the context that occurred why Amado said Jigen's strength was only 10%, which is the real context because Jigen was recovering against Duo Konoha. And Amado said that to Kashin Koji to see his next move to kill Isshiki.

From the beginning, if the actual context of Jigen fighting with 10% of Isshiki's original power would make a very bad inconsistency to the power-scaling consistency that has been made chronologically. And for that I will discuss the inconsistency of the Thread Upgrade interpretation chronologically in the next point.

Spoiler: INCONSISTENCIES IN THE CHRONOLOGICAL INTERPRETATION OF THE UPGRADE

We know that Isshiki's arrival is with Kaguya as told by Amado in chapter 46. However, there was an incident that made Kaguya betray and hurt Isshiki to death.

In order to survive, Isshiki shrank his body and became a parasite until it could affect Jigen's entire body before attaching karma to him.

We know that Kaguya herself has comparable speed to the Konoha Duo, as Kaguya showed the capability to react and dodge Sasuke's attacks. Or have a solid fight with Naruto,There are even cases where Naruto can out-speed Kaguya who is off-guard.

For someone to catch off-guard and hurt another person, it is certain that the person's capabilities are at least of the same level. Because if we use the example of a battle where a 10× higher speed is tricked by a 10× slower one, it will create a contradiction that will actually refute the existing narrative and chronology. Although Kaguya is relative to the Konoha Duo, Kaguya can catch Sasuke's off-guard and then throw him into another dimension, as well as Naruto who can sever Kaguya's hand with his speed. This already shows the chronological consistency that the Off-Guard case can be injured or captured if it is relative (level). The premise is chronologically the strength and speed of Isshiki relative to Kaguya, and Kaguya relative to Naruto and Sasuke. Since Kaguya is described as being able to injure Isshiki off-guard, then Kaguya should also have the speed to react to Isshiki.
If Isshiki is 10× faster in her first mode on Earth because she hasn't been hurt yet, does it make sense for Kaguya who is 10× slower to hurt her despite being off-guard? If the difference is 1.5× or at best 2×, it might be possible, but if it's 3×, it can have a significant difference (for example, a motorcycle whose speed can be 3× human speed, it can blitz us and catch us off-guard at full speed), let alone this massive 10× difference. Especially Kaguya here after being reincarnated with Madara's body can be comparable to the Konoha Duo.
It goes like this; when an individual has a speed that is 10× higher than their opponent, the speed difference creates a massive gap between the two. In the context of combat, this means that the faster individual has a huge advantage in reacting and taking action, making it difficult for their slower opponent to hurt them off-guard. For example, imagine a situation where a cyclist who has three times the speed of a human walking. Under those conditions, the cyclist would easily pass a person on foot and injure them off-guard before the victim could react. The significant difference in speed creates a time gap that slower opponents cannot overcome, making it difficult for them to carry out effective attacks.
Similarly, in the context of a fight between two individuals with a huge difference in speed, such as 10×, the faster individual will have a huge advantage in protecting themselves from attacks or injuring the opponent off-guard. For example, imagine a martial arts expert who has ten times the speed of his opponent. In that situation, the martial artist would be able to evade his opponent's attack with great ease, even when the opponent tries to attack suddenly. Much higher speed provides faster reaction time, greater agility, and the ability to better anticipate an opponent's attack.

Thus, it can be concluded that a significant difference in speed, such as 10×, creates a gap that is almost impossible for a slower opponent to surpass. Individuals who have higher speed will have a dominant advantage in off-guard situations, as they can easily evade attacks and take effective actions to injure their opponents. Therefore, the most appropriate explanation from the context of the interpretation given by Thread Upgrade is a misinterpretation. In addition to committing the Half-Truth Fallacy, the interpretation also contains the False Dichotomy Fallacy. That means they inferred Amado's meaning of saying Jigen's power was only 10% because that was how it started, when there are more options that make more sense than that. The more plausible interpretation here is "chronologically", in short in a mutually relative manner as I explained above.

Spoiler: THE TRUE ORIGINAL POWER OF ISSHIKI IN JIGEN BASED ON KARMA OBJECTION

It was explained by Amado that Isshiki could actually use Jigen's body as a vessel for his power, but it would only last a few days because Jigen body is not a suitable vessel. Jigen's body was implanted with Karma by Isshiki as an option to stay alive while she searched for a suitable vessel. The meaning of Amado's words was that Jigen's body could not hold Isshiki's power for long but only for a few days. Amado did not explain that Jigen could only hold 10% of Isshiki's original power. Of course, Amado explained repeatedly that Isshiki's chakra was too massive for Jigen. However, there is no explanation that Jigen will immediately break down if he uses Isshiki's original power, but instead takes time to wear off.

We are given stronger evidence and consistency when Jigen takes Isshiki's form again due to the pressure of fighting Kashin Koji. Isshiki took the karma from Kawaki and preferred to incarnate in Jigen's body in order to win against Kashin Koji. (Image) I have put a sign there, and I will explain the context of the sign;
1.1 -> It can be seen that Jigen was completely pushed by Kashin Koji's technique until his body was burned, and Shikamaru immediately understood that Jigen was forced to "enter Isshiki mode" or revive himself in Otsutsuki form.
1.2 -> Amado confirms that the fighting Jigen is medically dead, but he has karma that allows him to come back to life.
1.3 -> A strange phenomenon happened to Kawaki's Karma. It is the process of Isshiki's reanimation trying to take back all his strength to win.
1.4 -> It is confirmed that Kawaki's Karma disappeared due to the "incarnation" process of Isshiki in Jigen's body.
1.5 -> Amado then explains clearly that Kawaki's Karma disappeared because Isshiki chose to incarnate in Jigen's body. When she enters Isshiki form, He can immediately defeat Kashin Koji. can be seen here. This was no longer a 10% condition, because Amado said that 10% to Jigen who was exhausted after fighting with the Konoha Duo.

When fighting with naruto Baryon Mode, we get a full view of Isshiki's true power. And Isshiki clarified his life-span by recklessly using Jigen's body for incarnation, which is estimated to be only a few tens of hours before death. But since Naruto's Baryon effectively drained Isshiki's life energy as well, there were only 30 minutes left. Amado did say that if Isshiki gained his original power with Kawaki's body then Duo Konoha could not prevent it and the destruction of the Earth could happen, but that meaning only meant that Isshiki could freely use his power without being limited by "time" like using Jigen's body. And we know that 100% Jigen (Isshiki) could mid/hard-diff the Konoha Duo, but failed to finish them off due to running out of chakra. So if using Kawaki's body, Isshiki will not worry about running out of chakra because the output will be more optimal due to Kawaki as a suitable container.

That’s All For The Explanation, Now We Can Conclude That:

Spoiler: Conclusion

Interpretation made in this thread about Jigen's strength in the fight against Naruto and Sasuke is incorrect. The thread is based on the assumption that Jigen only used 10% of his original power, but there are many facts and contexts that are ignored in this interpretation.

First, the interpretation ignores the fact that Jigen was at under 10% strength due to having lost a lot of chakra after fighting the Konoha Duo. Amado explained that Jigen lost a lot of chakra in the fight, and it took several days to recover. So, when Jigen fought Duo Konoha, he was fighting at his maximum strength, not just 10% as interpreted in the thread.

Secondly, there are inconsistencies in the chronological interpretation in the VSB thread. The author points out that Kaguya has relatively the same speed as the Konoha Duo, and she was able to injure Isshiki off-guard. Therefore, if Isshiki is 10 times faster than her initial state, it makes no sense that Kaguya who is 10 times slower can injure her off-guard. This goes against the consistency and narrative that has been established earlier in the story.

Lastly, this interpretation does not consider the Karma objection in Jigen's body. Amado explains that Jigen's body could not contain Isshiki's power for long, and Isshiki needed a suitable vessel. When Isshiki took the karma from Kawaki and incarnated himself in Jigen's body, he was able to fully utilize his power against Kashin Koji. This shows that the 10% condition mentioned in the VSB thread does not apply when Isshiki uses Jigen's body that has been affected by Karma.

Overall, I conclude that the thread interpretation of Jigen's power in the fight against Naruto and Sasuke is not clear, assertive, and critical. The interpretation ignores important facts, contains chronological inconsistencies, and does not consider Karma's objections in Jigen body.

Agree: @Boyinluv2002 @TakaJason @EndlessPheonix750 @Jayy @ShadowBokuNoHero (10%) @FlugelAlcor @KntolRicat @Rendyn0counter @Fixxed @Arc7Kuroi @DigiAnymore @Aseka @ZENZUYA @LeylinFarlier01 @EndlessCalamity @KingTempest
@SickofExistence @Tamasensei123 @DarkDragonMedeus @Damage3245 @GTsek @LordGriffin1000(some point) @LuciferX @ricatthegoat @Godernet (10%) @Verrel966 @AKUTO123 @MeliodasDeUzyy @Rau

Disagree: @Catpija @Halkum145 @Suigetsuhyugs @kaydee @HADES @YoutubeForKing

Neutral: @ssgengar (until he read the whole argument) @Sanjabudi212

I think this thread has been accepted and the changes should be applied when 6 staff members have agreed (3 admin, 1 thread mod and 2 content mods) and it has been more than 48 hours since this thread was created.

 

[HADES]

RESPOND TO DEBUNKED NARUTO FTL+

I hope this is not ignored.

 

[Catpija]

I hope this is not ignored.

I hope it is

 

[Catpija]

Grace period already ended, and bunch of staffs have approved it already.

Why did you even try to oppose it when we have reached a conclusion?

 

[Robo432343]

bro asked a rhetorical question

 

[Catpija]

Bro said bro asked a rhetorical question

 

[HADES]

Grace period already ended, and bunch of staffs have approved it already.

Why did you even try to oppose it when we have reached a conclusion?

so we shouldn't refute it because "mod" have come to the conclusion?even if we could refute it?

 

[Jayy]

so we shouldn't refute it because "mod" have come to the conclusion?even if we could refute it?

Unless you somehow managed to convince the staffs that it is actually wrong, then the conclusion would be discussed furthermore. But since in this case, no staffs are on your side, and since the grace period has ended, the conclusion has been found.

 

[EndlessPheonix750]

I hope this is not ignored.

dude, the mods or even the staff didn't respon or even agree to Xyra's Refute. If some all of you want to refute it, it need more time to be apply, wait 2 months. Like the conclusion has been made.

 

[Catpija]

so we shouldn't refute it because "mod" have come to the conclusion?even if we could refute it?

I never said that you can't argue it, just that your timing is ass.

Just do another thread

 

[Xyra]

---

I never said that you can't argue it, just that your timing is ass.

Just do another thread

buddy, I want to ask you now, it's seen that I made an argument against "debunk ftl+ naruto" in this thread right? but he didn't respond to my argument, it seems he only responded to some comments referring to quickly changing Naruto's speed, does this make sense ?and will Naruto's changes still be made?if you say "yes". means you are no different from him who ignores my arguments, can't respect someone. and of course he hopes that this thread will be closed soon and then change Naruto's profile without seeing the response from the rebuttal that he did, in essence I'm here asking for justice, with evidence that the opponent didn't respond to me, that means "debunk naruto ftl+" this will close immediately and don't make any changes to Naruto's profile. he ignored as if everyone agreed with his statement, insignificant.

@KingTempest @Antvasima @Rendynoc0unter

 

[Catpija]

---

buddy, I want to ask you now, it's seen that I made an argument against "debunk ftl+ naruto" in this thread right? but he didn't respond to my argument, it seems he only responded to some comments referring to quickly changing Naruto's speed, does this make sense ?and will Naruto's changes still be made?if you say "yes". means you are no different from him who ignores my arguments, can't respect someone. and of course he hopes that this thread will be closed soon and then change Naruto's profile without seeing the response from the rebuttal that he did, in essence I'm here asking for justice, with evidence that the opponent didn't respond to me, that means "debunk naruto ftl+" this will close immediately and don't make any changes to Naruto's profile. he ignored as if everyone agreed with his statement, insignificant.

@KingTempest @Antvasima @Rendynoc0unter

I ain't reading all that

Also, normal member cannot tag staff

 

[Xyra]

I ain't reading all that

Also, normal member cannot tag staff

Hmm

 

[HADES]

I never said that you can't argue it, just that your timing is ass.







Just do another thread

this is the right time in my opinion.


and well, the theard that Xyra made was also closed, and told him to comment here.

 

[Jayy]

this is the right time in my opinion.

This is definitely not the right time, the refute was posted after like 6 staffs agreed on this thread. Especially since Xyra also posted the refute AFTER the 48 hours grace period has ended. Idk how you managed to make the conclusion that this is the right time to refute this thread even though it isn't.

Maybe you didn't know how the VSB thread system works, but atleast you know now. And if you want to refute this thread, you'll have to wait for atleast 2 months for you to be able to create a new thread responding to this debunk since we've found the conclusion.

 

[Catpija]

and well, the theard that Xyra made was also closed, and told him to comment here.

Because he made a thread about it and commented on this thread at the same time. It was simply unnecessary.

Also, the mod said that you shouldn't create a new thread with the same settled topic immediately.

 

[Catpija]

Hold on lemme get an admin to open the profile

Keep in mind that you should wait 2-4 months before attempting to tackle the same topic.

@Deagonx can you open the profiles?

 

[Fikriskps]

@Deagonx can you open the profiles?

you cant make user you tag get the notification unless you have the staff role.

but ill msg wall him

 

[Catpija]

you cant make user you tag get the notification unless you have the staff role.

thats why i replied to him :v

 

[Fikriskps]

aii mb lul

 

[Deagonx]

You'd have to ask in the all purpose request thread. Thread mods can't unlock profiles

 

[Xyra]

bruh, will my argument in maintaining Naruto's speed that I gave last night at theards be simply ignored by all staff and admod? including yourself? It seems that from last night no staff gave any response at all, I was very disappointed.

You'd have to ask in the all purpose request thread. Thread mods can't unlock profiles

 

[Jayy]

bruh, will my argument in maintaining Naruto's speed that I gave last night at theards be simply ignored by all staff and admod? including yourself? It seems that from last night no staff gave any response at all, I was very disappointed.

It's not like some of us explained why this is happening in previous replies...

Grace period already ended, and bunch of staffs have approved it already.

Why did you even try to oppose it when we have reached a conclusion?

 

[Khanhba01]

bump

 

[Fikriskps]

Let me know once the changes have been applied, then I'll close the thread.

The changed has been applied, this thread can be closed now