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Naruto FTL+ Debunk

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Shadowbokunohero said:
this is only true for people already engaging in combat, where even if your off guard or distracted your likely to still be more on guard than you would if you were asleep or not in a fight.

the issue with Kaguya and Ishikki is that we literally have no context other than he was off guard. if we ever get a flashback and we see Ishikki and kaguya actively fighting first then sure.
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We don't need to look at Kaguya and Ishiki, we can see that Ishiki was hit by Naruto's base which literally has a speed of 2.11c.
 
EndlessPheonix750 said:
We don't need to look at Kaguya and Ishiki, we can see that Ishiki was hit by Naruto's base which literally has a speed of 2.11c.
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2.11c is Teen SPSM Naruto let alone a stronger and faster one many years later. Hokage Naruto is just unquantifiably higher than that calc.

also that doesn’t discredit Isshiki as Naruto has higher reaction speeds thanks to SM sensory abilities and KCMs inate ability to sense intent
 
Godernet said:
2.11c is Teen SPSM Naruto let alone a stronger and faster one many years later. Hokage Naruto is just unquantifiably higher than that calc.

also that doesn’t discredit Isshiki as Naruto has higher reaction speeds thanks to SM sensory abilities and KCMs inate ability to sense intent
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I see, so this is where the gap happens, it doesn't make sense that ishiki who is 10x faster than naruto is still getting hit if we talk about mathematics, because ishiki's perception is 10x faster than naruto's movement.
 
EndlessPheonix750 said:
I see, so this is where the gap happens, it doesn't make sense that ishiki who is 10x faster than naruto is still getting hit if we talk about mathematics, because ishiki's perception is 10x faster than naruto's movement.
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If Naruto’s reaction speed is far greater than his movement speed it makes more sense. Which it is.

also saying something “doesn’t make sense” so it can’t be true isn’t an argument just incredulity.
 
Fikriskps said:
For someone to catch off-guard and hurt another person, it is certain that the person's capabilities are at least of the same level.
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Yeah....no
If you were on the same level in the first place, you won't need to attack them off guard
If it was mid combat and a diversion tactic was used sure why not
Not here
Zetsu and Obito at different points pierced through madara even though they were below him
This stuff happens in fiction
Fikriskps said:
Although Kaguya is relative to the Konoha Duo,
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Yh, their sixteen year old selves
Fikriskps said:
f Isshiki is 10× faster in her first mode on Earth because she hasn't been hurt yet, does it make sense for Kaguya who is 10× slower to hurt her despite being off-guard? If the difference is 1.5× or at best 2×, it might be possible, but if it's 3×, it can have a significant difference (for example, a motorcycle whose speed can be 3× human speed, it can blitz us and catch us off-guard at full speed), let alone this massive 10× difference. Especially Kaguya here after being reincarnated with Madara's body can be comparable to the Konoha Duo.
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Shadowbokunohero said:
this is absolutely not true, the reason why being off guard is so detrimental is because it circumvents the need to face the opponent head on and inflict damage when they are vulnerable. and this is extremely notable within the naruto universe where being off guard or not in chakra battle mode can allow people significantly weaker to injure much much much stronger people, when i say stronger im talking about thousands to millions of times let alone a small ten times difference.
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Fikriskps said:
It goes like this; when an individual has a speed that is 10× higher than their opponent, the speed difference creates a massive gap between the two. In the context of combat, this means that the faster individual has a huge advantage in reacting and taking action, making it difficult for their slower opponent to hurt them off-guard.
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Unfortunately, we have no evidence that they engaged in combat before kaguya bisected him
They may have well been taking a sunday stroll on the new planet and Kaguya blindsided him from nowhere
Fikriskps said:
undefined
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I've never been sold on the 10% scaling
Even when we applied it to AP
I thought it was going to be tackled in a different thread from that
 
kaydee said:
10× difference isn't too much lil bro
I'm really convinced y'all didn't even read the previous thread discussion.
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Bruuh? Not much, what do you mean? Ishiki has a perception of 1.58087249e-10s and naruto 1.58087249e-9s, ishiki clearly sees naruto attacking in a "slow" state mainly because naruto attacks from the side. So, if ishiki was off guard there must have been a splash sound when naruto came from the side and ishiki clearly knew "if" ishiki's perception/reaction was 10x above naruto's.
 
EndlessPheonix750 said:
Bruuh? Not much, what do you mean? Ishiki has a perception of 1.58087249e-10s and naruto 1.58087249e-9s, ishiki clearly sees naruto attacking in a "slow" state mainly because naruto attacks from the side. So, if ishiki was off guard there must have been a splash sound when naruto came from the side and ishiki clearly knew "if" ishiki's perception/reaction was 10x above naruto's.
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Sure, splash sound when they are fighting about a million times above the speed of sound? Yes you really know what you talking about
 
EndlessPheonix750 said:
Bruuh? Not much, what do you mean? Ishiki has a perception of 1.58087249e-10s and naruto 1.58087249e-9s, ishiki clearly sees naruto attacking in a "slow" state mainly because naruto attacks from the side. So, if ishiki was off guard there must have been a splash sound when naruto came from the side and ishiki clearly knew "if" ishiki's perception/reaction was 10x above naruto's.
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I said it's not too much.
And y'all are assuming isshiki has clairvoyance or something?
The point here is his is not expecting anything from that direction, so his attention is not focused there neither is his guard.

If that's the case then an ant should have a speed tier of average human


Suigetsuhyugs said:
Sure, splash sound when they are fighting about a million times above the speed of sound? Yes you really know what you talking about
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Bruh
 
kaydee said:
I said it's not too much.
And y'all are assuming isshiki has clairvoyance or something?
The point here is his is not expecting anything from that direction, so his attention is not focused there neither is his guard.

If that's the case then an ant should have a speed tier of average human
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You don't seem to understand perception/reaction, like I said, 10x faster in math is a big deal. You should understand perception/reaction first.
 
EndlessPheonix750 said:
You don't seem to understand perception/reaction, like I said, 10x faster in math is a big deal. You should understand perception/reaction first.
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You should know or realize that perception is about seeing/feeling something, perception doesnt exist for things you cant see/feel, it doesnt matter how slow it is if it comes when you are not looking it will hit you and wont matter if its 10000000 times slower than you.
 
Suigetsuhyugs said:
You should know or realize that perception is about seeing/feeling something, perception doesnt exist for things you cant see/feel, it doesnt matter how slow it is if it comes when you are not looking it will hit you and wont matter if its 10000000 times slower than you.
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Why not? As I explained above, naruto attacks from the side and there must be a splash of sound when naruto attacks ishiki, unless naruto has sound manip and hides the sound.
 
After reading this, I share the same sentiments mainly as Godernet Deceived and Shadow. I agree with the premise on 10% Jigen = Naruto and Sasuke being false. It’s mainly some of the OP argumentation that is just goofy as all hell, especially the motorcycle analogy. But Shadow and Deceived have already dismantled that argument, and idrc to argue too much since I just agree with the premise. I think the first spoiler point in the OP is fine enough for pushing the premise through.
 
EndlessPheonix750 said:
Why not? As I explained above, naruto attacks from the side and there must be a splash of sound when naruto attacks ishiki, unless naruto has sound manip and hides the sound.
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Dude, do you know what happens to objects that move above the speed of sound? Naruto and Ishiki are at the very least FTL that means about 1 000 000 times above the speed of sound that means sound is not fast enough to travel while they are moving meaning there is no sound happening.
Also they are ninjas one of the basic techniques we see in classic is silent killing technique that Zabuza uses constantly.
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
After reading this, I share the same sentiments mainly as Godernet Deceived and Shadow. I agree with the premise on 10% Jigen = Naruto and Sasuke being false. It’s mainly some of the OP argumentation that is just goofy as all hell, especially the motorcycle analogy. But Shadow and Deceived have already dismantled that argument, and idrc to argue too much since I just agree with the premise. I think the first spoiler point in the OP is fine enough for pushing the premise through.
Click to expand...
That premise forgot that its not about the jigen that fought the Konoha duo the whole fight, its scaling on Naruto for the end part of it, and also forgot to mention that 10% jigen also scaled to Koji who is also FTL. Take it as you will.
 
Suigetsuhyugs said:
That premise forgot that its not about the jigen that fought the Konoha duo the whole fight, its scaling on Naruto for the end part of it, and also forgot to mention that 10% jigen also scaled to Koji who is also FTL. Take it as you will.
Click to expand...
Ik im the one who got base Koji ~ Delta ~ Naruto to begin with. I just disagree with base Koji ~ Delta nowadays. But you’re right that should be actually addressed
 
Stryker861 said:
Main problem i think people have with it tho is that theres nothing that directly links koji to shikamaru
Click to expand...
But Koji is already directly FTL for being at least comparable to delta.

Anyways bring the right arguments and I will think about it but this thread in specific is very bad, if this brings the downgrade i and others could easily make a thread to debunk all this arguments and the upgrade goes back again until someone shows up with actually good arguments for the downgrade.
 
Fikriskps said:

Summary​

This all started with a thread on VSB: ( This Thread ) --- The thread explained that the Jigen that Naruto and Sasuke fought against was only 10% of its original power, so if it fought with 100% of its original power, it would be 10 times faster and stronger as well. Is it that simple? The answer is no, and the thread hides many facts. Or it can be said that it only presents the logic that suits the wishes of its supporters, objectively there are many contexts that are ignored so here I will refute the premise. I will argue with 3 main points; "The percentage of Jigen's power that is misinterpreted", "The inconsistency of the VSB thread's chronological interpretation", "Isshiki's original power in Jigen is actually based on Karma objections".

Lets Get To The Point​

The main problem with the VSB-approved interpretation is that Jigen was at 10% when he first fought Naruto and Sasuke, which is actually a concealment of a crucial fact. It should be noted that Amado statement that Jigen was at less than 10% power was in chapter 43 of Boruto.

It is necessary to first explain the reason why Amado said the percentage of Jigen power, which is because at that time Jigen lost a lot of chakra due to overusing it when fighting the Konoha Duo explained in chapter 46, That meant the reason Jigen was at less than 10% strength was because he lost a lot of Chakra while fighting the Konoha duo.

Why is that? Because in chapter 39, we were clearly shown the interaction between Jigen and Amado who mentioned that in just 2 days, Jigen could fill his chakra tank again, Back at around chapter 38, Isshiki was there fighting with everything he had against Duo Konoha. The effect damaged Jigen's vessel because the amount of energy he expended damaged and minimized his time lifespan, which is why as soon as Duo Konoha lost and Jigen was at his limit, he didn't go after Sasuke and didn't kill Naruto because his power was depleted as in chapter 39.

That meant in his condition, Jigen fought to the max against the Konoha Duo. Only after fighting, he lost a lot of chakra until the quantity was empty and it took several days to recover. It doesn't mean that Jigen who fought the Konoha Duo only fought with 10% as interpreted by VSB. So from this, it can be clearly seen the Half-Truth Fallacy by the thread, which is to hide the context that occurred why Amado said Jigen's strength was only 10%, which is the real context because Jigen was recovering against Duo Konoha. And Amado said that to Kashin Koji to see his next move to kill Isshiki.

From the beginning, if the actual context of Jigen fighting with 10% of Isshiki's original power would make a very bad inconsistency to the power-scaling consistency that has been made chronologically. And for that I will discuss the inconsistency of the Thread Upgrade interpretation chronologically in the next point.

We know that Isshiki's arrival is with Kaguya as told by Amado in chapter 46. However, there was an incident that made Kaguya betray and hurt Isshiki to death.

In order to survive, Isshiki shrank his body and became a parasite until it could affect Jigen's entire body before attaching karma to him.

We know that Kaguya herself has comparable speed to the Konoha Duo, as Kaguya showed the capability to react and dodge Sasuke's attacks. Or have a solid fight with Naruto,There are even cases where Naruto can out-speed Kaguya who is off-guard.

For someone to catch off-guard and hurt another person, it is certain that the person's capabilities are at least of the same level. Because if we use the example of a battle where a 10× higher speed is tricked by a 10× slower one, it will create a contradiction that will actually refute the existing narrative and chronology. Although Kaguya is relative to the Konoha Duo, Kaguya can catch Sasuke's off-guard and then throw him into another dimension, as well as Naruto who can sever Kaguya's hand with his speed. This already shows the chronological consistency that the Off-Guard case can be injured or captured if it is relative (level). The premise is chronologically the strength and speed of Isshiki relative to Kaguya, and Kaguya relative to Naruto and Sasuke. Since Kaguya is described as being able to injure Isshiki off-guard, then Kaguya should also have the speed to react to Isshiki.
If Isshiki is 10× faster in her first mode on Earth because she hasn't been hurt yet, does it make sense for Kaguya who is 10× slower to hurt her despite being off-guard? If the difference is 1.5× or at best 2×, it might be possible, but if it's 3×, it can have a significant difference (for example, a motorcycle whose speed can be 3× human speed, it can blitz us and catch us off-guard at full speed), let alone this massive 10× difference. Especially Kaguya here after being reincarnated with Madara's body can be comparable to the Konoha Duo.
It goes like this; when an individual has a speed that is 10× higher than their opponent, the speed difference creates a massive gap between the two. In the context of combat, this means that the faster individual has a huge advantage in reacting and taking action, making it difficult for their slower opponent to hurt them off-guard. For example, imagine a situation where a cyclist who has three times the speed of a human walking. Under those conditions, the cyclist would easily pass a person on foot and injure them off-guard before the victim could react. The significant difference in speed creates a time gap that slower opponents cannot overcome, making it difficult for them to carry out effective attacks.
Similarly, in the context of a fight between two individuals with a huge difference in speed, such as 10×, the faster individual will have a huge advantage in protecting themselves from attacks or injuring the opponent off-guard. For example, imagine a martial arts expert who has ten times the speed of his opponent. In that situation, the martial artist would be able to evade his opponent's attack with great ease, even when the opponent tries to attack suddenly. Much higher speed provides faster reaction time, greater agility, and the ability to better anticipate an opponent's attack.

Thus, it can be concluded that a significant difference in speed, such as 10×, creates a gap that is almost impossible for a slower opponent to surpass. Individuals who have higher speed will have a dominant advantage in off-guard situations, as they can easily evade attacks and take effective actions to injure their opponents. Therefore, the most appropriate explanation from the context of the interpretation given by Thread Upgrade is a misinterpretation. In addition to committing the Half-Truth Fallacy, the interpretation also contains the False Dichotomy Fallacy. That means they inferred Amado's meaning of saying Jigen's power was only 10% because that was how it started, when there are more options that make more sense than that. The more plausible interpretation here is "chronologically", in short in a mutually relative manner as I explained above.

It was explained by Amado that Isshiki could actually use Jigen's body as a vessel for his power, but it would only last a few days because Jigen body is not a suitable vessel. Jigen's body was implanted with Karma by Isshiki as an option to stay alive while she searched for a suitable vessel. The meaning of Amado's words was that Jigen's body could not hold Isshiki's power for long but only for a few days. Amado did not explain that Jigen could only hold 10% of Isshiki's original power. Of course, Amado explained repeatedly that Isshiki's chakra was too massive for Jigen. However, there is no explanation that Jigen will immediately break down if he uses Isshiki's original power, but instead takes time to wear off.

We are given stronger evidence and consistency when Jigen takes Isshiki's form again due to the pressure of fighting Kashin Koji. Isshiki took the karma from Kawaki and preferred to incarnate in Jigen's body in order to win against Kashin Koji. (Image) I have put a sign there, and I will explain the context of the sign;
1.1 -> It can be seen that Jigen was completely pushed by Kashin Koji's technique until his body was burned, and Shikamaru immediately understood that Jigen was forced to "enter Isshiki mode" or revive himself in Otsutsuki form.
1.2 -> Amado confirms that the fighting Jigen is medically dead, but he has karma that allows him to come back to life.
1.3 -> A strange phenomenon happened to Kawaki's Karma. It is the process of Isshiki's reanimation trying to take back all his strength to win.
1.4 -> It is confirmed that Kawaki's Karma disappeared due to the "incarnation" process of Isshiki in Jigen's body.
1.5 -> Amado then explains clearly that Kawaki's Karma disappeared because Isshiki chose to incarnate in Jigen's body. When she enters Isshiki form, He can immediately defeat Kashin Koji. can be seen here. This was no longer a 10% condition, because Amado said that 10% to Jigen who was exhausted after fighting with the Konoha Duo.

When fighting with naruto Baryon Mode, we get a full view of Isshiki's true power. And Isshiki clarified his life-span by recklessly using Jigen's body for incarnation, which is estimated to be only a few tens of hours before death. But since Naruto's Baryon effectively drained Isshiki's life energy as well, there were only 30 minutes left. Amado did say that if Isshiki gained his original power with Kawaki's body then Duo Konoha could not prevent it and the destruction of the Earth could happen, but that meaning only meant that Isshiki could freely use his power without being limited by "time" like using Jigen's body. And we know that 100% Jigen (Isshiki) could mid/hard-diff the Konoha Duo, but failed to finish them off due to running out of chakra. So if using Kawaki's body, Isshiki will not worry about running out of chakra because the output will be more optimal due to Kawaki as a suitable container.

That’s All For The Explanation, Now We Can Conclude That:
Interpretation made in this thread about Jigen's strength in the fight against Naruto and Sasuke is incorrect. The thread is based on the assumption that Jigen only used 10% of his original power, but there are many facts and contexts that are ignored in this interpretation.

First, the interpretation ignores the fact that Jigen was at under 10% strength due to having lost a lot of chakra after fighting the Konoha Duo. Amado explained that Jigen lost a lot of chakra in the fight, and it took several days to recover. So, when Jigen fought Duo Konoha, he was fighting at his maximum strength, not just 10% as interpreted in the thread.

Secondly, there are inconsistencies in the chronological interpretation in the VSB thread. The author points out that Kaguya has relatively the same speed as the Konoha Duo, and she was able to injure Isshiki off-guard. Therefore, if Isshiki is 10 times faster than her initial state, it makes no sense that Kaguya who is 10 times slower can injure her off-guard. This goes against the consistency and narrative that has been established earlier in the story.

Lastly, this interpretation does not consider the Karmic objection in Jigen's body. Amado explains that Jigen's body could not contain Isshiki's power for long, and Isshiki needed a suitable vessel. When Isshiki took the karma from Kawaki and incarnated himself in Jigen's body, he was able to fully utilize his power against Kashin Koji. This shows that the 10% condition mentioned in the VSB thread does not apply when Isshiki uses Jigen's body that has been affected by Karma.
Overall, I conclude that the thread interpretation of Jigen's power in the fight against Naruto and Sasuke is not clear, assertive, and critical. The interpretation ignores important facts, contains chronological inconsistencies, and does not consider Karma's objections in Jigen body.

Agree: @Boyinluv2002 @TakaJason @EndlessPheonix750 @Jayy @ShadowBokuNoHero (10%) @FlugelAlcor @KntolRicat @Rendyn0counter @Fixxed @Arc7Kuroi @DigiAnymore @Aseka @ZENZUYA @LeylinFarlier01 @EndlessCalamity

Disagree: @Catpija @Halkum145 @Suigetsuhyugs @Godernet @kaydee

Neutral: @ssgengar (until he read the whole argument) @Sanjabudi212
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Agree.
 
Fikriskps said:
The main problem with the VSB-approved interpretation is that Jigen was at 10% when he first fought Naruto and Sasuke, which is actually a concealment of a crucial fact. It should be noted that Amado statement that Jigen was at less than 10% power was in chapter 43 of Boruto.
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Since when did Jigen fight Naruto and Sasuke only used 10%? isshiki gets FTL+ feats because he fights consistently with Koji with 10% of his strength (before reviving in Jigen's body) so that 10% feat Jigen gets FTL.
 
Suigetsuhyugs said:
But Koji is already directly FTL for being at least comparable to delta.



Anyways bring the right arguments and I will think about it but this thread in specific is very bad, if this brings the downgrade i and others could easily make a thread to debunk all these arguments and the upgrade goes back again until someone shows up with actually good arguments for the downgrade.
Click to expand...
Yes like I said
HADES said:
Since when did Jigen fight Naruto and Sasuke only used 10%? isshiki gets FTL+ feats because he fights consistently with Koji with 10% of his strength (before reviving in Jigen's body) so that 10% feat Jigen gets FTL.
Click to expand...
.
 
HADES said:
Since when did Jigen fight Naruto and Sasuke only used 10%? isshiki gets FTL+ feats because he fights consistently with Koji with 10% of his strength (before reviving in Jigen's body) so that 10% feat Jigen gets FTL.
Click to expand...
Are you illiterate? he is not saying that Jigen fought Naruto and Sasuke while using 10%, instead, he is saying the opposite. He was literally explaining on why that statement was incorrect, you need to read properly next time💀
 
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