Yikes! I suppose even Fuji May Cry after looking at this upgrade CRT

[Orioreeem]

But more importantly, even if it's easy for him, the issue is that your argument should make it easy for everyone. If the world is intrinsically superior, then every random mook of a demon should be able to effortlessly nuke the human world. Which is, in fact, contradicted by their surprisingly-strong leader doing so as his first display of strength.

So if there is a statement of one world being superior to another and anyone from higher world being able to destroy the lower world or that anyone from higher world being stronger then all people from the lower world that would be enough for a tier jump?

 

[Agnaa]

So if there is a statement of one world being superior to another and anyone from higher world being able to destroy the lower world or that anyone from higher world being stronger then all people from the lower world that would be enough for a tier jump?

I can imagine cases where that doesn't lead to a tier jump - perhaps the text explicitly states that the higher world is 100x as strong - but generally that should be more than enough.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Just a small note @TISSG7Redgrave is a admin on a sister website, not on vs battle.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Was busy. But who disagreed soo far?

I did, as did @Qawsedf234 iirc

 

[SuperSonicTL]

I did, as did @Qawsedf234 iirc

I'll label him as disagreement as well then.

But what was your reason for disagreement again? Iirc you yourself once said that you hate tier 1 anyway so why such an interest all of a sudden?

 

[Georredannea15]

Yes, that's how it is and as stated by DT that's how it is applied.

Every single 2C to 2A construct is displaced across a 5 dimensional space, it's literally what DontTalkDT says in those threads, what matters is the size of said 5 dimensional space and because most if not all the time the size is not stated then it's not assumed to be of significant size ergo not tier 1.


No, it wouldn't. Because, as DT made painfully clear to the point even me could understand, 2A is assumed to be displaced across a non significantly sized 5D space hence it wouldn't warrant a Low 1-C tier.


I never said he did. From the threads I presented in which he commented and gave the necessary explanation is where I got this conclusion.


Maybe because DT's comment explicitly contradicts what you are saying?

Well, A structure that extends infinitely on the 5-dimensional space doesn't mean Low 1-C; it can be a 4-D /2-A structure that extends infinitely on its 4th axis inside this 5-D space. I think this is what Agnaa meant, and yeah DT was also said this in that thread. What you need is not to extend infinitely inside the 5-D space, you need to extend infinitely on the 5th axis or to cover it infinitely.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Well, A structure that extends infinitely on the 5-dimensional space doesn't mean Low 1-C; it can be a 4-D /2-A structure that extends infinitely on its 4th axis in this 5-D space. I think this is what Agnaa meant, and yeah DT was also said this in that thread. What you need is not to extend infinitely inside the 5-D space, you need to extend infinitely on the 5th axis or to cover it infinitely.

I'd say we should rather wait for @Tony_di_bugalu or @Tanin_iver to get back from their busy schedule as it was their original plan to deal with this stuff however due to time constraints, they can't do much.

 

[Orioreeem]

I can imagine cases where that doesn't lead to a tier jump - perhaps the text explicitly states that the higher world is 100x as strong - but generally that should be more than enough.

Under Ultima's new system would the tier jump be like realty fiction one and be 1-A or from Low 2-C to Low 1-C?

 

[Karllkraft]

Under Ultima's new system would the tier jump be like realty fiction one and be 1-A or from Low 2-C to Low 1-C?

Why 1A

 

[chosen]

I'll label him as disagreement as well then.

But what was your reason for disagreement again? Iirc you yourself once said that you hate tier 1 anyway so why such an interest all of a sudden?

Wait for qaw tp confirm if he dissagreed Just incase

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Wait for qaw tp confirm if he dissagreed Just incase

On second thought yeah, you are correct.

Qaw just agreed to whatever Deagon spouted which was nothing like what we argued.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Oh boy, here we go again. You cant discredit staff votes just because you don't like the fact that they disagreed. Qaws did in fact disagree. Questioning the motivations of staff who disagree with you is also pathetic.

To my understanding, Deagon, Qaws, Mav, and Agnaa all disagree.

 

[Robo432343]

if we have that many staff disagreements then this thread should be closed no?

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Oh boy, here we go again. You cant discredit staff votes just because you don't like the fact that they disagreed. Qaws did in fact disagree. Questioning the motivations of staff who disagree with you is also pathetic.

It isn't pathetic but logical. Qaw never really gave his opinion in clear way. He just agreed to whatever Deagon said, if he does say disagree then i will cast the vote there. That simple.

To my understanding, Deagon, Qaws, Mav, and Agnaa all disagree.

And to my understanding, you should work on the post rather then talking over this.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

It isn't pathetic but logical. Qaw never really gave his opinion in clear way. He just agreed to whatever Deagon said, if he does say disagree then i will cast the vote there. That simple.



And to my understanding, you should work on the post rather then talking over this.

He agreed with someone who disagreed. That means he disagrees. Don't try to play stupid with me, now; I would hate to have to go back to the RVR, even if I'm not the one getting reported.

I've been busy all week, and truthfully I don't feel pressured to work on a response if this CRT is already getting overwhelmingly rejected.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

if we have that many staff disagreements then this thread should be closed no?

The main problem is the guyz who worked with me here didn't brought their arguments yet (mainly due to being busy)

We are just discussing the spatial dimensions for now. The disagreements can be changed into agreements later but for now, I'll cast their votes to disagree but that doesn't mean the thread itself is rejected. The arguments just started.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

He agreed with someone who disagreed. That means he disagrees. Don't try to play stupid with me, now; I would hate to have to go back to the RVR, even if I'm not the one getting reported.

Correction: He agreed with someone who himself didn't understood the arguments and said something that contradicts our arguments.

And as for you... Well goodluck ig.

I've been busy all week, and truthfully I don't feel pressured to work on a response if this CRT is already getting overwhelmingly rejected.

Soo are my bois too. Hence why waiting a bit doesn't hurt anyone.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Well, A structure that extends infinitely on the 5-dimensional space doesn't mean Low 1-C

No, if a structure has an infinite fifth dimensional axis its a Low 1-C space. Its just that having an infinite number of universes isn't a qualifier, since they don't need a infinitely sized fifth dimensional axis to separate them all.

Qaw never really gave his opinion in clear way

Well to go more into detail

So we have this fact and many scans that indicates Demon World is a place that houses countless L2C structures within its scope, being infinite in size or not doesn't matter coz Demon World will engulf it nonetheless and you need to travel between realms through portals soo it's safe to assume that the realms are seemingly displaced on the fifth spatial axis and would highlight the argument for 5D Demon World already. Even 6D when you factor in how Demon World has its own temporal axis in totality via Sparda sealing the flow of time of the entire Demon World as well as it being called Chaos Timeline in Peak of Mid.

The demon world containing infinite Low 2-C structures is a 2-A feat, not a Low 1-C one. Spatial Dimensions are just geometric axis. You can have an infinite number of 4D spaces within a finite 5D one with irrational numbers.

Additionally as mentioned before, Sparda sealing time isn't evidence for two temporal axis. It just means he froze time in a could space time continuums. Assuming that's what's happening because your first scan mentions literally nothing about him freezing time.

This section covers regarding the special dimensions we encountered throughout the entire series. Lets start with the more obvious one. Helfilth's domain (as we like to call it for now) is also called "Nightmare space" where we fought his Nightmare versions of bosses and himself at last. Here the description of the RAID mode was interesting regarding her... Apparently the place she wanders at transcends space and time alike.

It says spirits wonder beyond time and space, not that the Nightmare space is beyond time and space. This isn't a Low 1-C statement.

we have two separate statements that says that Mundus and his palace by extension exists outside of the flow of time.

The quote used is "Diverged from the flow of time" meaning that it split off from a main time structure, meaning its entirely within the flow of time.

This can mean only one thing... There is another layer of spatial and temporal axis that covers the structure of Demon World itself. The spatial axis comes from Demon World itself being displaced on an axis where it doesn't collide with Human World which, may i remind, is absolutely out of its reach through either lore or gameplay as well as there being a space between these two realms. Whereas the temporal axis comes from obviously the overarching timeline that contains both worlds totally separated from one another within its storage. This would bump the scaling upto 9D for the scalable feats of Demon Gods in the verse.

No, no it does not. The most this means is that sideways to one multiverse there's another, but that just means the void separating those two cosmologies is an above baseline 2-A space, which isn't the same as Low 1-C. If you had an infinite number of separate multiversal spaces that you could prove like with the MCU, then you could get Low 1-C through a transinfinite number of Low 2-C spaces.

That being said, I'll make this very clear and short. The multiverse of DMC works on MWI (Many World Interpretation) theory and since there are multiple scans for Endless/Infinite Demons within Demon World so the possible timelines would also be infinite. This is further backed up by Chen having infinite knowledge which stems from his future seeing capabilities via Beastheads. And thus, we conclude the 10D range for beings comparable to Beastheads and beyond.

This would be an indication of Low 1-C for the reasons mentioned above.

 

[Deagonx]

How does a multiverse work? Well it's a bunch of 4-D constructs (your standard Low 2-C universes a.k.a. timelines) displaced across a 5-D axis. The difference between Low 2-C/2-B/2-A and Low 1-C is that this 5-D plane is on insignificant size in tier 2 while it is of significant size in tier 1.

In our case we know the Demon World has several realms within it, some of them are infinite 4D constructs and despite that they don't intersect with each other despite that. Why? It's because they are in a 5th dimensional plane that prevents them from interacting with each other. Sonic explained it all here (in fact he did a good job with it all).

DT explained it here. The main idea is that no matter if these 4D spaces are infinite or not, what matters is the size of the 5th dimensional axis. After all that's the whole reason why GoW got 5D.

To make it short the Demon World is the higher dimensional (5D) axis in which 4D constructs exist and extend infinitely without interacting with each other.

If the "Demon World" contains an infinite amount of 4D universes, that does not mean it is, itself, the 5D axis upon which the universes are displaced. You seem to be attempting to make an argument along these lines:

"The Demon World contains infinite L2-C constructs which by default means it has at least an insignificant 5D axis. Further evidence of the Demon World itself being called infinite means that this 5D axis is infinite (significant)." This is directly contrary to our standards. From the Tiering FAQ:

A: In spite of what our intuitions may tell us, destroying or fully affecting multiple infinite-sized multiverses is in fact not better than doing the same to a single infinite multiverse, and thus, not above the "baseline" for 2-A.

The reason is that the total amount of universes contained in a collection of multiple infinitely-sized multiverses (even one consisting of infinitely many of them) is in fact equal to the amount of universes contained in a single one of the multiverses that form this ensemble: It is countably infinite, as the union of countably-many countable sets is itself countable, and thus does not differ in size from its components. The only general difference between multiple infinitely-sized multiverses and a single one is representation. What is considered to be multiple multiverses in one fiction could be considered a single multiverse in another, and vice versa, without the objective properties of those collections of universes changing. The only difference is where an author decided to draw the line between what belongs to the same multiverse and not. Thus, only an uncountably infinite number of universes actually makes any difference in terms of Attack Potency, at this scale.

This illustrates some of the more unintuitive properties of sets with infinite elements: Namely, given a set X, it being a subset of another set Y does not imply that Y > X in terms of size. An example of this is how the set of all natural numbers contains both the odd numbers and even numbers, yet all of these sets in fact have the same number of elements.

If we have infinite universes in a multiverse, and then the multiverse itself is called infinite in size, that does not give the cosmology an additional infinite spatial axis. If we go a step further and have the fiction refer to an omniverse that contains an infinite amount of these multiverses, that still does not give the cosmology an additional infinitely sized spatial axis.
There's been no reason why any of the infinities discussed in DMC's cosmology would be uncountably infinite, which would be required.

DT said that a 2-A multiverse exists within an arbitrarily small 5-D axis. You seem to think this is reason to consider containers of infinite realms to be equated to the aforementioned 5-D axis, which can then be reasoned through statements of it's own infinity to act as an indication of the size of this axis. This reasoning is not accepted on this site explicitly as described in the FAQ above.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Deagon absolutely understood and disagreed regardless. No point in dragging this just go to his wall and call them here.

 

[CurrySenpai]

Seeing the arguments develop and gaining more of an understanding of 5-D from them (and also because OP wasn’t particularly nice after misgendering me /hj) move me to disagree.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

What a mess (unsurprisingly), the best I can see is trying to salvage at least Low 1-C/2-A in this CRT or waiting until the tier 1 shenanigans are relatively set in stone (for the time being) then trying again with more detailed yet efficient arguments while maintaining professional decorum, possibly splitting future CRTs into parts since trying to upgrade any cosmology several tiers in one thread rarely goes smoothly (regardless of the general consensus).

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Welll to go more into detail

Finally we are going somewhere.

The demon world containing infinite Low 2-C structures is a 2-A feat, not a Low 1-C one. Spatial Dimensions are just geometric axis. You can have an infinite number of 4D spaces within a finite 5D one with irrational numbers.

What about the same 5D axis stated to be infinite and covered by a hypertimeline?

Additionally as mentioned before, Sparda sealing time isn't evidence for two temporal axis. It just means he froze time in a could space time continuums. Assuming that's what's happening because your first scan mentions literally nothing about him freezing time.

The thing is this isn't the only temporal dimension out there. But lets focus on this one soo far.

The scan says: "Time stopped for the demons and their world."

"Their world" is only referencing to singular realm as i previously mentioned. That being said. If the flow of time of the entire Demon Realm is stopped from there then why we end up seeing alternate versions of this same world on two occasions (novel and PoC)? Why there is a flow of time within sub-realms of Demon World?

As for the overarching timeline, it contains both Human and Demon World along with the dimensional walls or gaps between them. So it has to be something entirely else.

This is exactly what everyone is ignoring atm but I've faith in you to answer this.

Also the arguments for actual hypertimeline for Underworld comes from Human World opposing Demon World as a whole as having different flow of time and laws

Even so much so that they are blatantly stated to have be separate rules of space and time entirely.

Wouldn't this atleast warrent 5D?

It says spirits wonder beyond time and space, not that the Nightmare space is beyond time and space. This isn't a Low 1-C statement.

The context for that is Helfilth is the source of all nightmares. And the place she resides at (just like the description says) is beyond time and space.

The realm in itself is called "nightmare space" which hints towards the transcendental and metaphysical nature of Dreams (Nightmares) as we accepted already.

So i thought this could be suffice.

The quote used is "Diverged from the flow of time" meaning that it split off from a main time structure, meaning its entirely within the flow of time.

Understandable.

No, no it does not. The most this means is that sideways to one multiverse there's another, but that just means the void separating those two cosmologies is an above baseline 2-A space, which isn't the same as Low 1-C. If you had an infinite number of separate multiversal spaces that you could prove like with the MCU, then you could get Low 1-C through a transinfinite number of Low 2-C spaces.

Here is the interesting part, Human World totally differentiates Demon World as a whole aka bring treated as dualities (Light and Darkness) with separate flow of time and laws to one another entirely. What do you think about this one?

Anyway i let another guy known as @Tony_di_bugalu to handle the spatial parts of the discussion as he his reasons for this soo i say kindly wait for him for the time being

This would be an indication of Low 1-C for the reasons mentioned above.

The overarching timeline part?

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Anyway thank you for replying in detail Qaw sir. I was seriously thirsty for anyone trying to do this but none of the mods here tried this. Instead they went for voting and their own interpretations whatsoever.

 

[Deagonx]

The scan says: "Time stopped for the demons and their world."

"Their world" is only referencing to singular realm as i previously mentioned. That being said. If the flow of time of the entire Demon Realm is stopped from their then why we end ip seeing alternate versions of this same world on two occasions (novel and PoC)? Why there is a flow of time within sub-realms of Demon World?

As for the overarching timeline, it contains both Human and Demon World along with the dimensional walls or gaps between them. So it has to be something entirely else.

This is exactly what everyone is ignoring atm but I've faith in you to answer this.

Also the arguments for actual hypertimeline for Underworld comes from Human World opposing Demon World as a whole as having different flow of time and laws

Even so much so that they are stated to have be separate rules of space and time entirely.

Wouldn't this atleast warrent 5D?

The crucial point for establishing an additional temporal axis is that it goes in a different direction than "past" and "future" of the cosmology's main temporal axis. The problem you keep running into is that you are trying to establish this by referring to some bigger and grander sense of time, or by saying time is separated across multiple parts of the cosmology, but you haven't provided any basis for thinking these separate times or larger overarching times are going in a different direction than the typical "past/future" directions of the main locations of the verse.

What about the same infinite 5D axis?

None of the evidence given so far suggests there is an infinitely sized 5D axis.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

The crucial point for establishing an additional temporal axis is that it goes in a different direction than "past" and "future" of the cosmology's main temporal axis. The problem you keep running into is that you are trying to establish this by referring to some bigger and grander sense of time, or by saying time is separated across multiple parts of the cosmology, but you haven't provided any basis for thinking these separate times or larger overarching times are going in a different direction than the typical "past/future" directions of the main locations of the verse.

What about the the scan for having different rules of space and time for both Demon and Human World?

What about Human World having different flow of time to the entire Demon World?

What about Demon World having different laws in comparison to entirety of Demon World?

What about the other infamous manga panel that states Human World and Demon World are as separate as Light and Darkness? (I can extend further into this part btw)

None of the evidence given so far suggests there is an infinitely sized 5D axis.

Demon World in its entirety was stated to be Infinite/Endless so idk what you are talking about here. That's without mentioning the part where they carry spatially and temporally separated, infinite sized 4D structures within it that don't cross eachother in the entire series.

 

[Deagonx]

What about the the scan for having different rules of space and time for both Demon and Human World?

The problem is it's too nebulous, and the evidence in favor of them having the same direction for future/past is too overwhelming for something this vague to contradict it so strongly that we'd give it a new time axis. The rules of time might be difference, but that doesn't mean it goes along a different axis.

What about Human World having different flow of time to the entire Demon World?

Sparda being able to stop time in the demon world without it stopping in the human world doesn't mean they have a different time axis than the "past/future" of the HW.

What about Demon World having different laws in comparison to entirety of Demon World?

This doesn't mean much.

What about the other infamous manga panel that states Human World and Demon World are as separate as Light and Darkness? (I can extend further into this part btw)

Being separate doesn't mean they follow different temporal axes.

Demon World in its entirety was stated to be Infinite/Endless so idk what you are talking about here. That's without mentioning the part where they carry spatially and temporally separated, infinite sized 4D structures within it that don't cross eachother.

I explain it all in my comment about which replied to Tony making the same argument. The Demon World can just be 4D infinite, the fact that an infinite amount of universes "are displaced among an arbitrarily small 5-D axis" does not mean the Demon World being the container/superset of those worlds means it is the 5-D axis itself, such that we could say "if the demon world is infinite then that means the 5-D axis upon which these worlds are displaced is infinite." It just doesn't work that way, but I go much more in depth in my earlier comment here

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

I see some problems here and even more misunderstandings about DT comments and the system.

I'll get to all of them later today.

 

[Qawsedf234]

What about the same 5D axis stated to be infinite and covered by a hypertimeline?

You haven't shown either in this thread until you reach the MWI part.

The scan says: "Time stopped for the demons and their world."

Where? You linked two and neither mention that time stopped.

Even if it did stop, that still wouldn't be evidence for two temporal axis. Just that time was stopped in one area that's already separate from the other.

As for the overarching timeline, it contains both Human and Demon World along with the dimensional walls or gaps between them. So it has to be something entirely else.

No it doesn't. Time was still going in the same linear direction until it was stopped, that's not evidence for two temporal axis. Just one still.

The context for that is Helfilth is the source of all nightmares. And the place she resides at (just like the description says) is beyond time and space.

No, the scan you provided just says they wander beyond space and time, not that the Nightmare realm is beyond those things. The realm can have temp-spatial characteristics while its occupants don't.

Here is the interesting part, Human World totally differentiates Demon World as a whole aka bring treated as dualities (Light and Darkness) with separate flow of time and laws to one another entirely. What do you think about this one?

That doesn't mean anything unless you prove there's a time directional duality as well.

The overarching timeline part?

Under a infinite branching multiverse, if every demon realm or whatever is 2A, then the total cosmology would be 5D.

But only under those circumstances.

 

[Georredannea15]

No, if a structure has an infinite fifth dimensional axis its a Low 1-C space. Its just that having an infinite number of universes isn't a qualifier, since they don't need a infinitely sized fifth dimensional axis to separate them all.

That's true but...

Extends infinitely within a 5-dimensional space doesn't means you extends infinitely along the 5th axis or encompass the 5th axis and extends infinitely there. That's what I mean.

Basically infinite parallel timelines also extend infinitely in the 5-dimensional space separating them, but this does not make the space separating them Low 1-C. Because these structures can only extend infinitely along the 4th axis of the 5-dimensional space.

As DT mentions here, basically a timeline stretches infinitely in the 5-D space it is in, but this “infinitely stretching” would basically only apply to the 4th axis in the 5-D space.

In such a case, a 5-D space with an infinite timeline in it and a timeline that extends infinitely in a 5-D space would not be Low 1-C, they would still be in tier 2 because this “infinitely extending” would be in the 4th axis.


The 5th axis of space still has an insignificant size, the only known one is the 4th axis

Under a infinite branching multiverse, if every demon realm or whatever is 2A, then the total cosmology would be 5D.

Well, Isn't that actually “infinite number of 2-A”? So still 2-A. I remember someone opened a revision for scaling higher than the basic 2-A. Maybe it will work here

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The Demon World is not 2-A, nor is there any reason for it to be, so it seems low 1-C is dead in the water.

 

[Georredannea15]

The Demon World is not 2-A, nor is there any reason for it to be, so it seems low 1-C is dead in the water.

Actually, whether it is 2-A or not is not very important for Low 1-C right now (It used to be important)

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Actually, whether it is 2-A or not is not very important for Low 1-C right now (It used to be important)

Well yeah, that's technically true. But there's also no evidence it is 2-A, so this would be a very short conversation despite how important it is.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Well, Isn't that actually “infinite number of 2-A”? So still 2-A.

But its not. Its an infinite amount of 2-As that branch off due to MWI, which is a recursive infinity which leads to transinfinite number.

 

[Deagonx]

Yeah, honestly, I've left this point be temporarily because I felt that it'd be easier to address the standards issue, but the evidence provided for the Demon World being 2-A is not good.

The scans used to claim there are infinite realms in the Demon World are an avatar's description that reads "eastern realms of the Underworld" and a collection of screenshots of locations in the game. Neither of these are evidence for there being infinite realms.

The scan for them being "infinite in size" is just a description of "The Void" calling it the "infinite abyss." This doesn't extrapolate to all the realms of the Demon World being infinite in size and there's not even an explicit indication that the Void is part of the demon world.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

You haven't shown either in this thread until you reach the MWI part.

Where? You linked two and neither mention that time stopped.

Even if it did stop, that still wouldn't be evidence for two temporal axis. Just that time was stopped in one area that's already separate from the other.

No it doesn't. Time was still going in the same linear direction until it was stopped, that's not evidence for two temporal axis. Just one still.

No, the scan you provided just says they wander beyond space and time, not that the Nightmare realm is beyond those things. The realm can have temp-spatial characteristics while its occupants don't.

That doesn't mean anything unless you prove there's a time directional duality as well.

Under a infinite branching multiverse, if every demon realm or whatever is 2A, then the total cosmology would be 5D.

But only under those circumstances.

No offense Qaw but most of the questions you have here has my answers here as well soo kindly read this as well while you are at it (ignore the bantering tho).

Anyway i have other works to do and I'm sleepy rn so we would have this discussion tomorrow. But yeah...

Thank you for taking your time Qaw sir. I appreciate it!

 

[Agnaa]

Under Ultima's new system would the tier jump be like realty fiction one and be 1-A or from Low 2-C to Low 1-C?

No.

Any continued talk about vague hypotheticals unrelated to DMC's current tiering will be considered derailing, and be deleted.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

It does; if the Human World is countably infinitely smaller than the Demon World, that means that they're of a similar size difference, which is not enough to jump tiers.

If it's infinite and contains infinite-sized 4D structures, and isn't uncountably infinitely bigger than those infinite-sized 4D structures, then it's just a larger infinitely-sized 4-D structure, with a largely irrelevant 5-D extension.

There is quite the mistake here. The 5th dimensional axis doesn't need to be stated to be "uncountably infinitely bigger" because the argument doesn't rely on the structure being uncountable infinitely bigger (as that would amount to arguing QS among other stuff).

In case Sonic made it confusing, the current argument is that the demon world is a 5th dimensional axis of significant size, with significant size either being "very large" (whatever very large could mean) or "infinite". The demon world is consistently stated to be infinite to make it a 5-D space of significant size.

@Qawsedf234

I noticed your argument. It also comes from a right place but you misunderstand the standards too and the explanations DT made in the relevant threads.

I made a comprehensive post about it and included DT's explanations here. I would appreciate if you took the time to go through it before posting again.


@Deagonx

If the "Demon World" contains an infinite amount of 4D universes, that does not mean it is, itself, the 5D axis upon which the universes are displaced. You seem to be attempting to make an argument along these lines:

I'm sorry to tell you this but as DT stated, this is how tier 2 works, doesn't matter if it is 2, 3, 1000 or infinite amount of 4D universes. They are displaced across a 5th dimensional axis and.

"The Demon World contains infinite L2-C constructs which by default means it has at least an insignificant 5D axis. Further evidence of the Demon World itself being called infinite means that this 5D axis is infinite (significant)." This is directly contrary to our standards. From the Tiering FAQ:
If we have infinite universes in a multiverse, and then the multiverse itself is called infinite in size, that does not give the cosmology an additional infinite spatial axis. If we go a step further and have the fiction refer to an omniverse that contains an infinite amount of these multiverses, that still does not give the cosmology an additional infinitely sized spatial axis.

There's been no reason why any of the infinities discussed in DMC's cosmology would be uncountably infinite, which would be required.


Not only did you not understand the actual argument but you also seem to misunderstand the standards so I recommend you actually read the post you responded here before commenting again, Agnaa, me and basically 90% of the users had the same problem so I can see why people will misunderstand things

DT said that a 2-A multiverse exists within an arbitrarily small 5-D axis. You seem to think this is reason to consider containers of infinite realms to be equated to the aforementioned 5-D axis, which can then be reasoned through statements of it's own infinity to act as an indication of the size of this axis. This reasoning is not accepted on this site explicitly as described in the FAQ above.

DT said: "a construct of 4D volume (several spaces + time) spread throughout a 5D space, which is basically what a multiverse is like and hence Tier 2." Tier 2 is basically any amount of dimensions displaced across a 5D axis.

I don't "seem to think", it's literally what DT and the FaQ page says.

DT: "Multiple timelines do, in any case, exist in 5D space. But not in a significantly large 5D space."
FAQ: "Multiversal structures past Low 2-C frequently have a distance of unknown length along a 5th dimensional axis separating them. That isn't automatically Low 1-C, as for Low 1-C the distance must be known to be of non-insignificant size."

As I explained in my original post, every single tier 2 multiverse is like this and the only reason they don't scale to tier 1 is because the 5D space isn't stated to be of significant size.

In our case we know there are infinite sized 4D constructs that never interact with each other all displaced in the 5D space that is the demon world. If that was all we had then it would be tier 2 just fine BUT we know the size of the demon world (as it is stated to be infinite several times) which qualifies for this part "significant size".

come on guys, you were literallly there when DT wrote the new standards

 

[Vietthai96]

Wait, i just want some clarifications here. We know that every multiverse have a 5th axis to displace individual space-time universe to contain them it is just not Low 1-C cause the 5th axis is insignificant unless something prove it being significant to tiering it right???.

So we have Human World to be space-time universe and some other realms, so Demon Realm can absorb and contain those realm separately (iirc), which mean Demon Realm spatial dimesion must be 5th axis to displace those space-times, abd Demon World is infinite in size, mean that the 5th axis also is infinite, which at this point is significant and can be tiered, isn't that is Low 1-C (5D)???

 

[Agnaa]

There is quite the mistake here. The 5th dimensional axis doesn't need to be stated to be "uncountably infinitely bigger" because the argument doesn't rely on the structure being uncountable infinitely bigger (as that would amount to arguing QS among other stuff).

In case Sonic made it confusing, the current argument is that the demon world is a 5th dimensional axis of significant size, with significant size either being "very large" (whatever very large could mean) or "infinite". The demon world is consistently stated to be infinite to make it a 5-D space of significant size.

I know, but because we know that it is only countably infinitely bigger than the human world at best (really, I'd say that the manga scan implies that they're comparably large), it cannot be of a significant 5-D size.

It's like, you don't need a statement of being uncountably infinitely bigger, but if other evidence confirms that you're less than uncountably infinitely bigger, you cannot be bumped up a tier.

 

[Deagonx]

I'm sorry to tell you this but as DT stated, this is how tier 2 works, doesn't matter if it is 2, 3, 1000 or infinite amount of 4D universes. They are displaced across a 5th dimensional axis and.

I'm not disagreeing with that.

In our case we know there are infinite sized 4D constructs that never interact with each other all displaced in the 5D space that is the demon world.

Your reasoning seems to be as follows, correct me where I'm wrong:

P1. An infinite amount of L2-C realms is a 2-A multiverse.
P2. DT said that a 2-A multiverse is displaced across a 5-D axis.
P3. DMC has an infinite amount of L2-C realms.
P4. The Demon World is said to be the superset/container of these realms
C1. The Demon World is the 5-D axis/5-D container of the realms
P5. The Demon World is infinite in size
C2. The 5-D axis is infinite in size.

The error is that the Demon World being a 2-A multiverse does not mean that it is -- itself -- the 5-D axis. If it's the 5-D container of those realms, it would still be the case that none of the information given tells us that the 5-D axis is infinite in size, because it would still be accurate to call the Demon World "infinite" by virtue of the 4-D infinity within it even if the 5-D axis is arbitrarily small. You cannot infer that the Demon World is the 5-D axis by virtue of it being described as the container of these L2-C realms, that's not how we treat multiverses in terms of being containers of many universes. A multiverse containing infinite universes and also itself being called "infinite" does not mean the 5-D axis is infinite in size.

Here are the pertinent sections of the FAQ that make this clear:

The reason is that the total amount of universes contained in a collection of multiple infinitely-sized multiverses (even one consisting of infinitely many of them) is in fact equal to the amount of universes contained in a single one of the multiverses that form this ensemble: It is countably infinite, as the union of countably-many countable sets is itself countable, and thus does not differ in size from its components. The only general difference between multiple infinitely-sized multiverses and a single one is representation. What is considered to be multiple multiverses in one fiction could be considered a single multiverse in another, and vice versa, without the objective properties of those collections of universes changing

This illustrates some of the more unintuitive properties of sets with infinite elements: Namely, given a set X, it being a subset of another set Y does not imply that Y > X in terms of size. An example of this is how the set of all natural numbers contains both the odd numbers and even numbers, yet all of these sets in fact have the same number of elements.