Yikes! I suppose even Fuji May Cry after looking at this upgrade CRT

[SuperSonicTL]

Sup ladies and gentlemen

As you know, we sophisticated gigachad DMC bros before hoes were ignored... Left to die on the road... Without any mercy... But you know what? We decided to came back with vengeance from the ashes of despair.

"B-B-BuT sOnIc HoW'S tHaT pOsSiBlE???"

You may ask? Foolishly? So lets start by answering your questions, shall we?
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The Origin of Reality​

The Underworld (or Demon World for that matter) is a home for Demons and the place where they usually reside at as we know there are only two main realms in the entire cosmology which are Human World and Demon World, the dualities of the reality, absolutely opposing one another no matter how you look at it.

But don't let this fool you into thinking that both realms are comparable to eachother. Demon World is the very product of the primordial universe which gave birth to Human World as one of its aspects in the the first place. Yeah that's right, the whole space-time continuum of the Human World is basically a part of Demon World before Pluto decided to be a lil bitch about it and yeet the thing out of the whole reality for stability's sake.

Now Human World is no different then any other inner realm when it comes to being a space-time continuum. But why is it soo special and considered a totally different realm in comparison to all other inner realms of Demon World and the multiversal structure itself is due to it having a different flow of time and laws in comparison to any other inner realm which suggests that this is indeed spatially and temporally different then any other realms of Demon World and thus would be its own structure that opposes other sibling universal structures. This is further proven correct by Peak of Mid when Lily was explaining the nature of realms within Demon World in comparison to Human World by having different rules of space and time alike.

So we have this fact and many scans that indicates Demon World is a place that houses countless L2C structures within its scope, being infinite in size or not doesn't matter coz Demon World will engulf it nonetheless and you need to travel between realms through portals soo it's safe to assume that the realms are seemingly displaced on the fifth spatial axis and would highlight the argument for 5D Demon World already. Even 6D when you factor in how Demon World has its own temporal axis in totality via Sparda sealing the flow of time of the entire Demon World as well as it being called Chaos Timeline in Peak of Mid.

But this is just a tip of the iceberg.

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Realms beyond space and time​

This section covers regarding the special dimensions we encountered throughout the entire series. Lets start with the more obvious one. Helfilth's domain (as we like to call it for now) is also called "Nightmare space" where we fought his Nightmare versions of bosses and himself at last. Yeah the nightmares which are stated to be metaphysical in nature as well as even blatantly stated to be transcendental by DMC5 game description and DMC3 guidebook respectively. This nature of dreams (nightmares) had dream version of Lady keeping up with Helfilth herself and even defeated her. Now here the description of the RAID mode was interesting regarding her... Apparently the place she wanders at transcends space and time alike. Implying the realm where she resides at is a fifth dimensional plane of existence as that is the only description that goes with what we have here.

Secondly, we have Mundus' palace or Marble Vault as some may call it is a very special place that has two infinite stuff stored within it and on top of that, we have two separate statements that says that Mundus and his palace by extension exists outside of the flow of time... While being within Underworld... And having his alternate versions throughout the multiverse. Now what this can be taken as the palace/dimension of Mundus is soo greater in comparison to other dimensions that it goes beyond the scope of your usual temporal axis (4D) which should be a backup support of 5D realms within Demon World.

And finally, i wanna bring one more 5D realm which would be Mirror World itself. This world was obviously stated to reflect our world but things are more complicated then you think it would be. Not only does the realm is stated to transcend space-time but it has its own flow of time as well on top of that soo you will get another 5D inner realms by the end of the day. Furthermore, the God of Time and Space who is stated to know all about the past and is omniscient who is also stated to both be the watcher of time and to have the power to control time has no power within the mirror world and is viewed as nothing more than an illusion.

Now all this consistent amount of extra-ordinary dimension indicates that Demon World isn't just bounded to 4D scale and can potentially bump the cosmology scaling soo far upto 7D.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Timeline​

This is very interesting part of the cosmology that we never noticed before till recently. The first realization came when Dante was teleported in the alternate timeline where Mundus won the war against Humans as those dumbasses betrayed Sparda who was helping him which led to Demon World totally consuming Human World as a whole. Now this is where the curiosity stood up... The timeline includes both Human and Demon World despite both worlds being totally separated from one another either via dimensional wall or literal space-time fabric. This and Demons couldn't even travel to Human World without any special means like Hell Gate and so on.
That said space is contained by a temporal dimension that branches infinitely and makes up the actual multiverse and lemme clear this point that Itsuno says there is only Human and Demon World in the entire cosmology, the said cosmology would be the overarching timeline.

Not convinced? Here is one more funny thing... Mundus and his palace exist outside of the flow of time and yet have his alternate versions across the multiverse which suggests that there is indeed another layer of temporal axis coz you can't have alternate versions of yourself across time while being outside of it soo it has to be another higher temporal axis which would be the overarching timeline itself.

In addition, PoC supports this notion as it is blatantly stated to be a canon alternate timeline where Human World and Demon World are already separated and has a temporal space between them which, again, would be the space between these worlds and still treated as a singular timeline.

This can mean only one thing... There is another layer of spatial and temporal axis that covers the structure of Demon World itself. The spatial axis comes from Demon World itself being displaced on an axis where it doesn't collide with Human World which, may i remind, is absolutely out of its reach through either lore or gameplay as well as there being a space between these two realms. Whereas the temporal axis comes from obviously the overarching timeline that contains both worlds totally separated from one another within its storage. This would bump the scaling upto 9D for the scalable feats of Demon Gods in the verse.

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The Multiverse itself​

That being said, I'll make this very clear and short. The multiverse of DMC works on MWI (Many World Interpretation) theory and since there are multiple scans for Endless/Infinite Demons within Demon World so the possible timelines would also be infinite. This is further backed up by Chen having infinite knowledge which stems from his future seeing capabilities via Beastheads. And thus, we conclude the 10D range for beings comparable to Beastheads and beyond.

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This is the blog here for better view on the overall arguments so yeah... Have fun reading it!

Agreed: @Eseseso @HelloThere1089 @Planck69 (Thread Mod Admin and agrees with a single hypertimeline soo far) @Minos_the_Judge @HelloThere1089 @CurrySenpai @Tanin_iver @Random-Helper323 @Theglassman12 (Thread Mod and agrees with a single hypertimeline soo far) @LuffyRuffy46307 @TISSG7Redgrave @Tony_di_bugalu @GarrixianXD (Content Mod and agrees with a single hypertimeline soo far)

Disagreed: @Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara (Obviously lol) @Deagonx (Thread Mod) @Setsuna_tenma @Palito266 @Agnaa (Admin) @Maverick_Zero_X (Admin)

Neutral: @Woomica

 

[Eseseso]

Having discussed this with you, Sonic, you know that I agree with all of this.

Excellent work!

Will the actual scaling be in this CRT or another one?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I see.

Perhaps this is an unreasonable request, but I would like to have the opportunity to read through and respond to this thread before any FRA chains can get started.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

I see.

Perhaps this is an unreasonable request, but I would like to have the opportunity to read through and respond to this thread before any FRA chains can get started.

Take your time. I'm also pretty busy atm.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I do intend to respond later tonight, so I won't keep you waiting for too long.

 

[CurrySenpai]

Hmmm makes sense to me, I agree

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Having discussed this with you, Sonic, you know that I agree with all of this.

Excellent work!

Will the actual scaling be in this CRT or another one?

Sorry for late reply but the scaling is already cooked so i didn't got the feel to specify it. I just extended the cosmology to its meaningful placement.

 

[Minos_the_Judge]

Wow. My friends and I from another site thought about all this, though up to 9d, not 10d, using similar arguments, but without bringing it to something so beautiful and professional.

Perfect job. Well done. By the way. Is it possible to tie up the God of Space and Time here? He transcends space and time, and he was powerless in the mirror realm.

Agree.

 

[Deagonx]

The reasoning is unclear to me, so before any argumentation takes place let me make sure I understand the facts such as they are being framed, and how it is being reasoned that they lead to your conclusions. If I miss something let me know.

So we have this fact and many scans that indicates Demon World is a place that houses countless L2C structures within its scope, being infinite in size or not doesn't matter coz Demon World will engulf it nonetheless and you need to travel between realms through portals soo it's safe to assume that the realms are seemingly displaced on the fifth spatial axis and would highlight the argument for 5D Demon World already. Even 6D when you factor in how Demon World has its own temporal axis in totality via Sparda sealing the flow of time of the entire Demon World as well as it being called Chaos Timeline in Peak of Mid.

Scan 1: A PoC avatar who's weapons are described "cutting through the eastern realms of the Underworld"
Scan 2: An album of different locations in the game with different backgrounds.
Scan 3: A sandbox training location in DMC 5 named "The Void" which is described as a "special pocket dimension."
Scan 4: A video from DMC 3 featuring Dante jumping out of a portal to reach a location in the Underworld.

I am not necessarily opposed to interpreting some of this information to mean there are multiple spatially distinct realms in the Underworld. What's unclear to me is how it was concluded that the amount of these realms is infinite or that any of them are Low 2-C. You then conclude that they are "seemingly displaced on the fifth spatial axis." I don't know how that conclusion was reached, some clarification would be good.

Scan 5: A scan (not sure the source) in Japanese, the translation provided says Sparda sealed away himself and the demon world using the tower, and it is then said the tower "sank into the depths of the earth and time stopped for the demons and their world."
Scan 6: Some scans from PoC which reference a "chaos timeline."

The implication appears to be that the statement that "time stopped for the demons and their world" is suggestive of an second temporal axis for the demon world.

This section covers regarding the special dimensions we encountered throughout the entire series. Lets start with the more obvious one. Helfilth's domain (as we like to call it for now) is also called "Nightmare space" where we fought his Nightmare versions of bosses and himself at last. Here the description of the RAID mode was interesting regarding her... Apparently the place she wanders at transcends space and time alike. Implying the realm where she resides at is a fifth dimensional plane of existence as that is the only description that goes with what we have here.

Scan 7: The location of this boss.
Scan 8: A description of the PoC challenge involving this boss and the location, which describes Hellfilth as "the demon of knowledge, the master of dimensional rifts, the spirit wandering beyond time and space, the embodiment of fear, the mighty demon lord."

The conclusion appears to be that her being described as "wandering beyond time and space" as indicative of the notion that her realm is five-dimensional.

Secondly, we have Mundus' palace or Marble Vault as some may call it is a very special place that has two infinite stuff stored within it and on top of that, we have two separate statements that says that Mundus and his palace by extension exists outside of the flow of time... While being within Underworld... And having his alternate versions throughout the multiverse. Now what this can be taken as the palace/dimension of Mundus is soo greater in comparison to other dimensions that it goes beyond the scope of your usual temporal axis (4D) which should be a backup support of 5D realms within Demon World which would bump the cosmology scaling soo far upto 7D.

Scan 9: Scans from the "DMC Memorial Album" which describe the fight against Mundus, where Mundus flaps his wings and suddenly him and Dante are "enveloped in a sea of stars" and the temple disappears. Then Dante turns into a demon and "kicks off the earth as he flies off into the dark sky that spreads to infinity."
Scan 10: Some translations of the Japanese book that read "Right now he is, beyond Beryl's gaze---in the palace of the endlessly spreading darkness, where a fierce battle is unfolding."
Scan 11: Another memorial album scan which says the temple where the Mundus fight begins "seems to have diverged from the flow of time."
Scan 12: This is the same link as scan 11.

Apparently the proposal is that the Marble Vault/Mundus' Palace has QS over the Underworld.

This is very interesting part of the cosmology that we never noticed before till recently. The first realization came when Dante was teleported in the alternate timeline where Mundus won the war against Humans as those dumbasses betrayed Sparda who was helping him which led to Demon World totally consuming Human World as a whole. Now this is where the curiosity stood up... The timeline includes both Human and Demon World despite both worlds being totally separated from one another either via dimensional wall or literal space-time fabric. This and Demons couldn't even travel to Human World without any special means like Hell Gate and so on.

This can mean only one thing... There is another layer of spatial and temporal axis that covers the structure of Demon World itself. The spatial axis comes from Demon World itself being displaced on an axis where it doesn't collide with Human World which, may i remind, is absolutely out of its reach through either lore or gameplay as well as there being a space between these two realms. Whereas the temporal axis comes from obviously the overarching timeline that contains both worlds totally separated from one another within its storage. This would bump the scaling upto 9D for the scalable feats of Demon Gods in the verse.

Scan 13: Several book scans noting that the parallel universe that was travelled to includes an alternate version of both the Underworld and Human World, with an alternate history of how the fight with Mundus turned out.
Scan 14: A scan from a guidebook in Japanese. No translation is provided but Google says it says "The dimensional wall between the demon world and the human world is like a rough net."
Scan 15: An enemy description which reads "Giant creature that made it's way into the human world through a rift in the space-time fabric."

The argument appears to be that there is another spatial dimension and temporal dimension due to the fact that there is an alternate universe that contains both realms.

That being said, I'll make this very clear and short. The multiverse of DMC works on MWI (Many World Interpretation) theory and since there are multiple scans for Endless/Infinite Demons within Demon World so the possible timelines would also be infinite. This is further backed up by Chen having infinite knowledge which stems from his future seeing capabilities via Beastheads. And thus, we conclude the 10D range for beings comparable to Beastheads and beyond.

Scan 16: Some Japanese book scans, the translation of which "There are many "ifs (or what-ifs)" as there are possibilities, alternative worlds of parallel existence."
Scan 17: A book scan saying Dante sees a memory of Mundus commanding an "infinite demon army"
Scan 18: A book scan of Chen saying "Infinite knowledge includes the use of a blade."

Not sure, but it seems the argument is that because there are supposedly infinite universes, this is yet another dimension? I'll assume it is spatial.
So the final conclusion being that the cosmology includes 7 Spatial Axes and 3 Temporal Axes.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Temporal Axes​

Well, that's a doozy. Before I address the validity of the evidence or how it's being described, I think it might be faster to clear up some misconceptions about our standards. To start with, none of the evidence provided is suggestive of an additional temporal axis. It's important to understand that unless it's directly stated that there are multiple temporal axes, the bar for establishing it is very high. From the Tiering System FAQ:

Outside of explanations which state that multiple time dimensions exist it is difficult to show that a fiction has more than one. The key point that has to be established is that there is a kind of time that flows in a different direction than the past or the future or any of the spatial directions.

Things like timelines having time that passes at different rates would not qualify, as even the theory of general relativity already establishes that with just one regular time dimension time can flow at different rates in different places. Time flowing backwards in another universe would also not qualify it to have an additional time dimension, as it would still use the same directions of past and future as regular time, just with events playing out in reverse. For the same reasons, statements about independent time streams or of separate kinds of time, which could flow parallel to the original time, would not qualify.
Neither would dimensions that are timeless voids or are described as beyond spacetime in general qualify. Unless they cotradict themselves, these realms should not have a time dimension at all, with change in them happening according to other principles. If they, on the other hand, do contradict themselves, the statement of them not having regular time would inherently not be reliable, making the idea equally unusable

The first instance where an additional temporal axis is proposed is with regard to Sparda "stopping time" for the Demon World when he sealed it away. Even if this is literal, this isn't evidence whatsoever of an additional temporal axis. Even if we regarded the Demon World and Human World as having separate/distinct flows of time, this does not constitute an extra time dimension unless they flow in different directions. Flowing backwards doesn't count, atemporality doesn't count, going faster/slower doesn't count. It needs to be an entirely distinct direction of time.

The other point for a proposed additional time axis was the point about alternate timelines containing both realms. Given the explanation above, it's clear to see that this has nothing to do with what kind of things we'd expect to establish an additional time axis.

Spatial Axes​

We have a similar problem here. The way we seem to keep arriving at the conclusion of higher temporal dimensions is "well X is infinite, and that's inside Y, so Y must have an additional spatial axis." Again, before we even scrutinize the evidence for any of that, we need to understand that this just isn't a valid way to conclude that there are more spatial dimensions. From the FAQ:

Q: Is a structure bigger than a 2-A structure Low 1-C by default?​

No, the default assumption is that this is not the case. "Bigger" could mean having more 2-A structures and, as explained in greater detail previously, having more 2-A structures, or even infinitely many 2-A structures, unless uncountably infinite many, won't scale above a single 2-A structure in size. This is due to these structures actually have the same size as a baseline 2-A structure. It is, however, possible to at least achieve above the baseline 2-A power by upscaling from other characters who've performed 2-A feats or of the feats themselves, rather than by affecting 2-A structures containing other 2-A structures. However, if "bigger" is indicated to mean a size difference that makes the structure qualitatively superior to a 2-A structure the structure qualifies for Low 1-C unless the fiction specifies otherwise.

To elaborate, a structure larger than 2-A meets the requirements for qualitative superiority over them if it either explicitly mentions an uncountably infinite number of universes or has portrayals/statements of being bigger in size than 2-A structures to the point that even infinite multipliers on top of the size of that structure are of no relevance to it. Multiversal structures past Low 2-C frequently have a distance of unknown length along a 5th dimensional axis separating them. That isn't automatically Low 1-C, as for Low 1-C the distance must be known to be of non-insignificant size.

So, the claim is that the Underworld contains "countless L2-C structures." If this is true, does that make it 5-D? No it does not. It would be a 2-A feat (destroying an infinite amount of separate infinitely sized 4-D spacetime continuums), but a 5-D feat would be Low 1-C.

The same goes for the Marble Vault. The claim is that it contains two infinitely sized spaces in it, and it's in the Underworld. I'm really not sure why this would be QS in any case, but this would still not push an Underworld destruction feat above 2-A.

The last set of claims is that parallel universes contain both the demon world and human world, and there are infinitely many parallel universes. Again, if we accept these claims at face value this is still a 2-A feat. From the FAQ:

Q: Is destroying multiple infinite multiverses a better feat than destroying a single one?​

A: In spite of what our intuitions may tell us, destroying or fully affecting multiple infinite-sized multiverses is in fact not better than doing the same to a single infinite multiverse, and thus, not above the "baseline" for 2-A.

The reason is that the total amount of universes contained in a collection of multiple infinitely-sized multiverses (even one consisting of infinitely many of them) is in fact equal to the amount of universes contained in a single one of the multiverses that form this ensemble: It is countably infinite, as the union of countably-many countable sets is itself countable, and thus does not differ in size from its components. The only general difference between multiple infinitely-sized multiverses and a single one is representation. What is considered to be multiple multiverses in one fiction could be considered a single multiverse in another, and vice versa, without the objective properties of those collections of universes changing. The only difference is where an author decided to draw the line between what belongs to the same multiverse and not. Thus, only an uncountably infinite number of universes actually makes any difference in terms of Attack Potency, at this scale.

This illustrates some of the more unintuitive properties of sets with infinite elements: Namely, given a set X, it being a subset of another set Y does not imply that Y > X in terms of size. An example of this is how the set of all natural numbers contains both the odd numbers and even numbers, yet all of these sets in fact have the same number of elements.

So, let's simplify this. Let's say we have an infinite amount of universes (4-D spacetime continuums) and this is called a "multiverse" in the verse. There are infinitely many multiverses and this is called an "omniverse." Further, we have an infinite amount of omniverses and this is a "macroverse" (or w/e). There's no inherent distinction feat wise in destroying a multiverse, omniverse, or macroverse. The multiverse isn't automatically 5-D, neither is the omniverse, nor the macroverse.

Based solely on the information provided above, destroying the entire infinite amount of universes containing the demon world and human world would only be a 2-A feat. Nothing provided suggests that there is an uncountable infinity or higher spatial dimension. The phrase about Hellfilth "wandering beyond space and time" does not suggest a higher spatial axes either.

 

[Deagonx]

As an aside, this is a very dense thread with many scans to be discussed, concerning some of the more complex aspects of our tiering system. The proposal is controversial, and it has the potential to be exceedingly long. For that reason, I am going to be a bit stricter on unnecessary comments. This is not a staff discussion thread, so anyone is allowed to provide their thoughts or argument, but I'm going to remove posts that are merely jokes or "following" posts. You can click the "watch" button at the top right of the thread to receive notifications.

 

[HelloThere1089]

Well since my comment was deleted, I'd like to repeat here that I agree with this thread for now.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

"Fuji, who would win between you and the DMC supporters?"
---
"If they brought out the hypertimeline arguments, they might give me a bit of trouble."
---
"But would you lose?"
---

The Origin of Reality​

The Underworld (or Demon World for that matter) is a home for Demons and the place where they usually reside at as we know there are only two main realms in the entire cosmology which are Human World and Demon World, the dualities of the reality, absolutely opposing one another no matter how you look at it.

Including this is very odd, since it is both not particularly relevant to the thread and also seems to contradict it at points; The Human World being the reflection of the Demon World would kill any notion of one world being infinitely superior to the other. Still, the OP seems to recognize this point is irrelevant, so let's move on.

But don't let this fool you into thinking that both realms are comparable to eachother. Demon World is the very product of the primordial universe which gave birth to Human World as one of its aspects in the the first place. Yeah that's right, the whole space-time continuum of the Human World is basically a part of Demon World before Pluto decided to be a lil bitch about it and yeet the thing out of the whole reality for stability's sake.

Ah, this old scan again. My worst enemy. Thankfully, no new arguments have been presented since last time, so this won't take very long. Allow me to copy/paste my original debunk from the downgrade thread, which was mostly reliant on quoting the standards from our current (as of 6/5/2024, anyways) tiering FAQ:

“Characters or objects that can universally affect, create and/or destroy spaces whose size corresponds to one to two higher levels of infinity greater than a standard universal model (Low 2-C structures, in plain English.) In terms of "dimensional" scale, this can be equated to 5 and 6-dimensional real coordinate spaces (R ^ 5 to R ^ 6)”

This is fine. If this was the only paragraph describing low 1-C, DMC would qualify if you buy the ray of light thing. But the requirements for tier 1 don’t stop there:

“Characters or objects that can significantly affect spaces of qualitatively greater sizes than ordinary universal models and spaces, usually represented in fiction by higher levels or states of existence (Or "levels of infinity", as referred below) which trivialize everything below them into insignificance, normally by perceiving them as akin to fictional constructs or something infinitesimal.”

That’s where we run into qualitative superiority, which has a few interesting caveats to it:

“In the same vein a space being qualitatively superior to another space, means that destroying that space would land you on a higher level of infinity in the Tiering System than destroying the space it is superior to. In rough terms it means as much as being "more than countably infinite times greater in power or size".

Right off the bat, it’s made clear that being countably infinitely greater than a low 2-C space is not enough; Rather, you need to go one step beyond that. The DW has no statements or implications that’d place it above countable infinity in terms of its size difference when compared to the HW.

“The reason it is called qualitative superiority is that, instead of quantitative terms such as being 2 times, 100 times or even infinite times more powerful or greater, this type of superiority is typically justified by the nature of the superiority. The most standard case is dimensionality, where a difference in the quality that is dimensionality, implies the necessary quantitative difference. Another typical example is reality-fiction differences. Those are cases like viewing a plane of reality as mere fiction, like for example writing on a sheet of paper or a dream. They are assumed to imply superiority of a similar scale.”

Here, it’s yet again stated that an infinite difference is not enough to qualify for qualitative superiority; Instead, the difference is reliant on things such as R > F difference (not relevant here), and a difference in dimensionality. Now the obvious issue is that the ray of light statement doesn’t really go into too much detail, which makes it impossible for us to go “yeah sure it’s talking about higher dimensions”.

“As the idea of "more than countably infinite times greater in power or size" implies, most statements of superiority wouldn't suffice to reach qualitative superiority, even if applied to already being infinitely stronger than the baselines for the level. E.g. being twice, a hundred or even infinite times stronger than a Multiverse level+ character, who already has infinite multiversal strength, would still not be enough to reach qualitative superiority over a multiverse.”

And then we wrap right back around to most statements of superiority, even those referring to infinite gaps above infinity, are simply not enough to qualify.

As you can plainly see, just being vaguely infinitely greater than a low 2-C space is not in fact sufficient to reach low 1-C levels of power. We have blatant rules in place to prevent a vague “infinitely larger than” statement from upgrading an entire verse to low 1-C. Take the ray of light statement as you will, it’s way too vague to assume it’s referring to dimensionality and not just size (or literally any other metric of measurement that people tend to think of before higher dimensions). The nature of this superiority is simply not elaborated on in any other DMC content; Taking it as qualitative superiority by default is a massive reach, especially since it’s just one statement.

Is reusing an argument from a months-old thread lazy? Sure, but then again, the OP didn't bother updating their arguments to account for the previous thread, so why should I?

Furthermore, I'd like to quote Ultima's assessment on the matter:

But, on the whole: I'll readily admit that, on a first reading, I did take the interpretation that the Demon World is infinitely larger than the Human World. Having read it again, though, I don't really find this interpretation very substantiated anymore. The inference itself comes from the verbiage which the text uses to describe the two worlds, "endless darkness" and "ray of light." But I don't think there is really anything to concretely say that the "ray of light" is minuscule to the darkness.

He is 100% correct here; The "ray of light" analogy does not concretely establish a size difference between the light and darkness, let alone a difference so extreme that it could only be accounted for using higher spatial dimensions.

The last scan is used to justify that the Human World is but a mere fraction of the Demon World. I... think this might be a case of a mislabeled scan? Because all that's said is the following:

Gigapede
Giant creature that made its way into the Human world through a rift in the time-space fabric. Relentlessly strikes down foes with a high voltage attack.

Needless to say, this makes no mention of the HW's status relative to the DW.

So we have this fact and many scans that indicates Demon World is a place that houses countless L2C structures within its scope, being infinite in size or not doesn't matter coz Demon World will engulf it nonetheless and you need to travel between realms through portals soo it's safe to assume that the realms are seemingly displaced on the fifth spatial axis and would highlight the argument for 5D Demon World already. Even 6D when you factor in how Demon World has its own temporal axis in totality via Sparda sealing the flow of time of the entire Demon World as well as it being called Chaos Timeline in Peak of Mid.

Despite having "many scans", none of these scans are particularly compelling when it comes to explaining why low 2-C realms are embedded in the DW. First scan is easy; It's just a mention of the Demon World having "realms" with no elaboration as to their size, whether or not they're separate space-times, or anything that'd support low 2-C. Is them being in the east supposed to be notable? The second album is a collection of screenshots from PoC showing various locations with space-like skies, with Dante offhandedly mentioning a "room" with a starry sky. Again, no context; These realms would be 4-A at best, and miss the benchmark requirement of 3-A size or higher needed for a realm to qualify as low 2-C. They also miss the other benchmark requirement for low 2-C, that being the establishment of a separate flow of time; Nothing says or shows that these realms are spatio-temporally separate from the Demon World. The "infinite in size" thing is questionable, because nothing says this realm is in the Demon World. It's just referred to as a "special pocket dimension" with no elaboration on where it comes from, where it lies in the greater cosmology, or anything at all, really.

The 6D point is where any sense of cohesion this thread once had begins to break down. Let's start with the more simple problem; This isn't how math works. A universe is made up of 4 dimensions, as per our own definition of the term - 3 dimensions are spatial and one is temporal. The OP is suggesting that the Demon World has an additional spatial axis that contains countless realms, so we add that extra dimension onto our hypothetical total to get 4 spatial dimensions, and one temporal dimension, making for 5 dimensions overall (3 + 1 + 1 = 5 [citation needed]). And then we add the Demon World's temporal dimension to get 6 dimensions.... hey, wait a second. An astute observer would notice that we already accounted for the Demon World's temporal dimension in our initial tally (the one that gave us 5 dimensions). So where's this new, 6th dimension coming from? Moving onto the actual justifications, the first scan used to defend this claims to be about Sparda sealing the flow of time, but that doesn't mean there's a second time dimension on the DW; Just that there was one that Sparda froze. Being called a timeline doesn't mean much, either. Time exists there, sure, but I'm confused at how this is supposed to mean there are two separate time dimensions.

Oh, and let's not forget that "countless" dimensions is completely made up. That number is not stated or implied anywhere, so I don't know why the OP included it.

Realms beyond space and time

This section covers regarding the special dimensions we encountered throughout the entire series. Lets start with the more obvious one. Helfilth's domain (as we like to call it for now) is also called "Nightmare space" where we fought his Nightmare versions of bosses and himself at last. Here the description of the RAID mode was interesting regarding her... Apparently the place she wanders at transcends space and time alike. Implying the realm where she resides at is a fifth dimensional plane of existence as that is the only description that goes with what we have here. Secondly, we have Mundus' palace or Marble Vault as some may call it is a very special place that has two infinite stuff stored within it and on top of that, we have two separate statements that says that Mundus and his palace by extension exists outside of the flow of time... While being within Underworld... And having his alternate versions throughout the multiverse. Now what this can be taken as the palace/dimension of Mundus is soo greater in comparison to other dimensions that it goes beyond the scope of your usual temporal axis (4D) which should be a backup support of 5D realms within Demon World which would bump the cosmology scaling soo far upto 7D.

Ooh, this one is nice and easy. Thanks! The first statement is wrong on two fronts. First of all, the scan doesn't say Hellfilth transcends time and space; Rather, that she "wanders beyond" them. Simply leaving space-time doesn't prove that one is higher-dimensional, or that there is the existence of a higher dimension out there somewhere. Even if the scan said she "transcended" space-time, that still wouldn't be usable! To quote our old friend the tiering FAQ again:

Q: What tier is transcending space and time?​

A: As said above, "transcending space and time" is a very vague statement by itself and can mean multiple things depending on the context in which it is made, as well as how this characteristic is portrayed in the first place. However, if it is specified that they "transcend space and time" in the sense that they exist on some higher level of reality that is qualitatively superior to a spacetime continuum in nature, then they should be put at Low 1-C, assuming the continuum in question is one comprised of four dimensions. The answer may vary depending on this factor.

It is perfectly possible for a statement like transcending space and time to mean that a character is simply "untied" from the universe's spacetime, and is thus unaffected by alterations in the timeline and similar meddlings. It's not exactly uncommon for time travel (Or any action / process that affects something through different points in time) to be described as "transcending time and space." Transcend space and time can also refer to a spacetime continuum being different to a "regular" spacetime continuum (Say, a strange-looking reality that may hold a few different physical laws, for example) or slightly do be more complex than a regular universe, even significantly so, but not qualitatively superior. Something A being said to "transcend" something B in real life can refer to the former being superior to the latter in some qualities in a notable way, but still roughly compatible. It does not necessarily mean transcendence not in an immeasurable way that would be graphically indescribable, such as A's qualities being superior to B by infinite amounts. With this in mind, statements of realities or beings with transcendence over space & time/the universe/etc., on their own, are not assumed to refer to qualitatively superiority, unless of course further context may elaborate on and contextualize this.

It should also be noted that simply existing in some alternate state of existence that lacks time and/or space is not really grounds for any tier in particular, as lacking such things does not translate to being superior to them, and would most often overlap with abilities like Acausality or Nonexistent Physiology. A good example of a case like this is Dormammu (Marvel Cinematic Universe), who is stated to exist in a realm "far beyond time," yet never actually displays any superiority over it, and is in fact vulnerable to time-based abilities due to his timeless nature.

Wow, that's a lot of words! But they all basically boil down to "transcending space-time isn't low 1-C unless you have an imperial fuckton of extra context". And remember, this is all assuming Hellfilth does transcend space-time, when the scan doesn't even say that. The Mundus stuff is in a similar position; Simply being outside of time and space is nowhere near enough for an extra dimension, though I'd like to call attention to another facet of those scans; The OP claims two scans solidify his realm as being infinite, when the actual quotes say it is merely infinitely/endlessly expanding. This implies it is merely growing without an upper limit, not that it is already infinite.

The Timeline

This is very interesting part of the cosmology that we never noticed before till recently. The first realization came when Dante was teleported in the alternate timeline where Mundus won the war against Humans as those dumbasses betrayed Sparda who was helping him which led to Demon World totally consuming Human World as a whole. Now this is where the curiosity stood up... The timeline includes both Human and Demon World despite both worlds being totally separated from one another either via dimensional wall or literal space-time fabric. This and Demons couldn't even travel to Human World without any special means like Hell Gate and so on.

This can mean only one thing... There is another layer of spatial and temporal axis that covers the structure of Demon World itself. The spatial axis comes from Demon World itself being displaced on an axis where it doesn't collide with Human World which, may i remind, is absolutely out of its reach through either lore or gameplay as well as there being a space between these two realms. Whereas the temporal axis comes from obviously the overarching timeline that contains both worlds totally separated from one another within its storage. This would bump the scaling upto 9D for the scalable feats of Demon Gods in the verse.

Ah, now this one is interesting. I'll avoid evaluating this as a legitimate hypertimeline and whether or not it fits out standards for one for reasons that will soon become clear. To summarize what the OP is speaking of here, they are insistent that in the DMC 2 novelization, Dante visits an alternate timeline. This timeline contains the Human and Demon Worlds simultaneously, despite their established spatio-temporal separation. In other words, there is a timeline with other timelines embedded within it, with those timelines never intersecting in any way.

In other words, the proposed "hypertimeline" would look something like this (pardon my lack of artistic skills):

Now, let's examine this proposed model with a more scrutinizing eye. These events occur during the Devil May Cry Volume 2 novel. As stated by the OP, the novel takes place in an alternate timeline where Mundus was successful in his war against the humans, causing the Demon World to subsume the Human World. This is equated to merging the two worlds together. Even outside of the novelization and Mundus' plan, the consequences of such an event are made apparent. Numerous characters make reference to or have the ability to merge the DW and HW together; It's practically the central conflict of the series at this point. So why does the OP insist that the two realms are separate, when the novel goes through great pains to explain that they were successfully merged together?

This becomes even stranger when looking deeper at DMC's current cosmology and profiles. The main basis of 2-C scaling stems from beings merging these two realms together; In order for this to be a 2-C feat at all, they must be merged on a temporal level as well, not just spatial. The natural consequence of that is that the two would share the same flow of time, and would be considered the same timeline by extension. And if they're the same timeline, then the OP's entire point falls apart. No higher-dimensional time flow is needed to compensate for the two realms sharing the same timeline. It is very strange to me that, after years of pushing for these feats to get accepted, DMC supporters are now insistent that they aren't valid at all, simply because their validity would outright debunk the notion of a higher-dimensional timeline. But enough about that. What would this more accurate model look like?

So what does this all mean? If the Human World and Demon World are merged, then they would by definition share the same timeline. There is no "greater timeline" embedding both; They are only in this interconnected state because Mundus basically glued them together. The existence of a hypertimeline is not needed to explain this chain of events, because the novel already explains it in a way that is not only consistent with the 2-C scaling, but is in fact integral to it.

In case I didn't get it across clearly enough earlier, allow me to recap: Mundus' plan is to merge the HW and DW together. The Volume 2 novel presents us with an alt timeline where Mundus' plan is successful. Ergo, the alt timeline is just a fusion of the HW and DW.

TL;DR: The entire basis of this point - that the alt timeline Human and Demon Worlds are separate timelines - is explicitly contradicted by the original source and additional context from across the rest of the series.

The Multiverse itself

That being said, I'll make this very clear and short. The multiverse of DMC works on MWI (Many World Interpretation) theory and since there are multiple scans for Endless/Infinite Demons within Demon World so the possible timelines would also be infinite. This is further backed up by Chen having infinite knowledge which stems from his future seeing capabilities via Beastheads. And thus, we conclude the 10D range for beings comparable to Beastheads and beyond.

About as straightforward as you can get for 2-A, that's for sure. But what's confusing about this point is that it's being used to justify another dimension off of... basically nothing? There is no standard on the site that can vouch for infinite possibilities being any higher than 2-A. While there is the "infinite knowledge" statement, that's also baffling to me, because that does not require an additional dimension at all. This section makes a lot of dubious claims (impressive for how short it is) and then immediately concludes they must make the verse 10D without ever really explaining why.
although i do think it's funny that you say you have "multiple scans" of there being infinite demons yet you only linked one

And... that's it. Funny, the thread looked a lot longer on my phone. Let's recap, shall we?

• The ray of light thing has been discussed and debunked so many times now that if I have to repeat it one more time I'm gonna [REDACTED].
• The Demon World does not embed any low 2-C realms within itself, and one of the realms cited isn't even part of the DW at all. A simple math error has somehow added an entire dimension to the cosmology because the OP forgot how to count, I guess?
• Being "beyond time and space" is not evidence of higher-dimensionality. Transcending space-time isn't good enough, either.
• The alt timeline in DMC 2 is not a hypertimeline, and is merely a fusion of the HW and DW. This does not require a higher time dimension, and is simply baseline 2-C.
• The multiverse is indeed infinite, but no explanation is given for how this causes the verse to leap up an entire extra dimension. The "infinite knowledge" statement has no correlation to the cosmology at all.

...Needless to say, I ain't convinced, and I certainly hope nobody else here is. In other words, I disagree. By the way, just so this doesn't end up as a 2-A upgrade thread either, even with a 2-A cosmology, there is nobody who scales to it. You'll just have to suffer in silence alongside us Touhou fans and our fuckoff huge cosmology that nobody scales to yet.

In case you forgot, Fuji never cries~​

 

[Greatsage13th]

Oof

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

agree with fuju disagree with the op

 

[CurrySenpai]

Not exactly convinced by Fuji’s arguments, my stance remains unchanged.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I was asked to comment here on my thoughts regarding this. Though I've said this once, and I'll say it again, Tier 1 just isn't my thing, however i do think it's fine as I've already looked over this before (though "some" stuff regarding the higher dimensions was a bit off in my opinion).

Note though, I literally just got three teeth removed and I'm in pain so I won't be participating in this thread as I just don't feel up to it. However If the majority of staff/members knowledgeable on tier 1 say it isn't enough then so be it. I don't think my thoughts are worth much but take them as you will.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I was asked to comment here on my thoughts regarding this. Though I've said this once, and I'll say it again, Tier 1 just isn't my thing, however i do think it's fine as I've already looked over this before (though "some" stuff regarding the higher dimensions was a bit off in my opinion).

Note though, I literally just got three teeth removed and I'm in pain so I won't be participating in this thread as I just don't feel up to it. However If the majority of staff/members knowledgeable on tier 1 say it isn't enough then so be it. I don't think my thoughts are worth much but take them as you will.

Respectfully, could you at least try to take the time to look over my response? One of the extra dimensions listed is literally the OP miscounting and accidentally adding a temporal dimension when they already added it to the total number of dimensions before. At bare minimum, it'd be pretty egregious to let an error like that slide.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Respectfully, could you at least try to take the time to look over my response? One of the extra dimensions listed is literally the OP miscounting and accidentally adding a temporal dimension when they already added it to the total number of dimensions before. At bare minimum, it'd be pretty egregious to let an error like that slide.

I'm in pain, and I'd rather not. The last thread I participated in that was like this it left a bad taste in mouth and I'd rather not get irritated. Also, I'm pretty sure I mentioned that I found a part of the higher dimension thing off when I checked the blog before this threads creation but I'll see if I missed it.

Regardless, since you asked nicely I'll look over you response and fight through the pain. But don't expect much in the way of a detailed response. Though I'm pretty sure the knowledgeable users would not let the error slide, as I've mentioned. My input here isn't worth much.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I'm in pain, and I'd rather not. The last thread I participated in that was like this it left a bad taste in mouth and I'd rather not get irritated. Also, I'm pretty sure I mentioned that I found a part of the higher dimension thing off when I checked the blog before this threads creation but I'll see if I missed it.

Regardless, since you asked nicely I'll look over you response and fight through the pain. But don't expect much in the way of a detailed response.

It feels weird to me for someone to enter a thread with no intention of defending their position. Like, I'm sorry about the pain you're going through (can't imagine having teeth removed feels very good), but why would you even agree to evaluate a controversial thread like this if you know the pain is gonna impair your ability to read through everything?

Nobody's forcing you to be here, man. Take care of yourself. Don't worry about reading through my response immediately, I'd prefer if you did it when you're not in pain.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

It feels weird to me for someone to enter a thread with no intention of defending their position. Like, I'm sorry about the pain you're going through (can't imagine having teeth removed feels very good), but why would you even agree to evaluate a controversial thread like this if you know the pain is gonna impair your ability to read through everything?

It's up to the OP to defend their points, not me, as I didn't make the thread. I've already evaluated it before this thread was even created. As pointed out in your counter post, regarding the beyond time and space, I discussed the "beyond time and space" arguments and expressed my thoughts on why they might not work (which is the higher dimensional issue I brought up in my first comment) as beyond time and space can be interpreted differently. As for the numbers are off then it should be fixed, yes. Though I'll wait for the counter arguments

I can't really provide much of response due to this not being something I'm familiar with. my agreement stems from my basic understanding (or lack there of) of the subject and what I've read from the blog but me not having the time to do so or feeling up to doing a back and forth to defend a thread that isn't mine my be weird to you but it's not to me. I think your point about "Infinite knowledge" statement is valid. Seems more stuff was added to the blog or I just don't remember some of the stuff, But it might be better to move myself to neutral at the moment until the OP and the others provide a response.

Nobody's forcing you to be here, man. Take care of yourself. Don't worry about reading through my response immediately, I'd prefer if you did it when you're not in pain.

Tell that to the constant messages that ask me to evaluate Tier 1 threads despite my distain for it (Not including this one, since I promised I'd comment). As for the pain, they said it's going to be about two weeks before it's fully heals (I needed stitches and the bleeding was never ending, and they are going to remove the others two wisdom teeth right after in a few weeks so I'd rather do this now. Especially with my terrible schedule.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

I've been taking a 2nd look at the OP and some other posts, I'll change my stance a bit

Furthermore, I'd like to quote Ultima's assessment on the matter:

But, on the whole: I'll readily admit that, on a first reading, I did take the interpretation that the Demon World is infinitely larger than the Human World. Having read it again, though, I don't really find this interpretation very substantiated anymore. The inference itself comes from the verbiage which the text uses to describe the two worlds, "endless darkness" and "ray of light." But I don't think there is really anything to concretely say that the "ray of light" is minuscule to the darkness.

He is 100% correct here; The "ray of light" analogy does not concretely establish a size difference between the light and darkness, let alone a difference so extreme that it could only be accounted for using higher spatial dimensions.

The last scan is used to justify that the Human World is but a mere fraction of the Demon World. I... think this might be a case of a mislabeled scan? Because all that's said is the following:

Gigapede
Giant creature that made its way into the Human world through a rift in the time-space fabric. Relentlessly strikes down foes with a high voltage attack.

Needless to say, this makes no mention of the HW's status relative to the DW.

I agree with this, never liked the "Ray of Light" explanation in the first place, and as Fuji/Ultima said, It doesn't go into the details that I believe are necessary for the interpretation to refer to higher spatial dimensions, of course, there is the possibility, but only with more concrete evidence would I agree with that side of the story.

So we have this fact and many scans that indicates Demon World is a place that houses countless L2C structures within its scope, being infinite in size or not doesn't matter coz Demon World will engulf it nonetheless and you need to travel between realms through portals soo it's safe to assume that the realms are seemingly displaced on the fifth spatial axis and would highlight the argument for 5D Demon World already. Even 6D when you factor in how Demon World has its own temporal axis in totality via Sparda sealing the flow of time of the entire Demon World as well as it being called Chaos Timeline in Peak of Mid.

From the many battles DMC has had with scans being or not being Universal in scope, I distinctly remember that alternate dimensions were not Low 2-C by definition, nor were 3-A. A starry sky, a moon in the bakground, different realms, a dimension being called dimension, by itself, does not guarantee a universal scope, let alone an entire timeline for it to be L2C. And that's quite an structural problem in the CRT since many of these scans are apparently taking Low 2-C for granted

I can see 4-A and maybe 3-C from what the PoC scans are showing, for example, which is certainly quite interesting, and an upgrade already, but seems to leave the DW at 2-C at best, which already changes something at least, since Fuji, when adding her updates, gave Nightmare 2-C for nuking the DW when she herself made that dimension Low 2-C (I literally wrote a CRT to change this, bu got ninja'd here)

Apparently the place she wanders at transcends space and time alike

What is the point of reference in this case ? Because if you take HW and DW currently accepted structure, they already have different space-times, and someone in the DW is already beyond T/S for someone in the HW.

The Multiverse itself

That being said, I'll make this very clear and short. The multiverse of DMC works on MWI (Many World Interpretation) theory and since there are multiple scans for Endless/Infinite Demons within Demon World so the possible timelines would also be infinite. This is further backed up by Chen having infinite knowledge which stems from his future seeing capabilities via Beastheads.

Agree with this part

In short, while I don't disagree with everything here, I believe that the fact that many of the realms used here don't stand out on their own, as 4D, already takes away, in my opinion, many of the arguments here. Others, such as the "Ray of Light" argument, are repeated and are at least vague to directly quantify it as proof of higher dimensions

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Hmm... Will reply later today when i get the time

 

[KingogKings777]

Interesting

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

Hmm from this I can see 5D at least on this with the hypertimeline parts from what I'm told. Idk on the stack to 10D cuz tbf nirvana's dimensions while infinite doesn't say too much if its higher and all just its size but whatever.

Also blog within a blog lolz

 

[Hasty12345]

I think Deagon and Fuji make the most sense here, I disagree with the CRT.

 

[CodeCCLL]

Best review of Deagonx I've seen so far, I agree with his and Fujiwara.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I can see 4-A and maybe 3-C from what the PoC scans are showing, for example, which is certainly quite interesting, and an upgrade already, but seems to leave the DW at 2-C at best, which already changes something at least, since Fuji, when adding her updates, gave Nightmare 2-C for nuking the DW when she herself made that dimension Low 2-C (I literally wrote a CRT to change this, bu got ninja'd here)

I didn't do that, btw. That justification was already there when I did the edits. It's a low 2-C feat, which merely supports the 2-C ratings. The addition of 4-A/3-C sized realms also wouldn't make a low 2-C structure 2-C, so this wouldn't upgrade the DW.

 

[Planck69]

I've already gone over this before so I'll just give what thoughts I've already made clear.

The hyper-timeline argument is fine with me, as are the individual realms within the Underworld being separate space-times.

Helfilth's statement doesn't have anything that tells us to what specific regard they transcend space and time, whether it's in a tierable manner or if its just a matter of separation, so using that as proof for superiority isn't something I can agree with.

The realms being spatially displaced across an axis isn't in and of itself proof of said axis being significant in extent, which is what you'd need to argue a tiering relevant higher-dimensional Demon World.

TL;DR I agree with individual timelines being 5-dimensional Low 1-C structures and the multiverse being composed of said timelines. But not much higher, at least in regards to presented information.

 

[Deagonx]

The hyper-timeline argument is fine with me, as are the individual realms within the Underworld being separate space-times.

TL;DR I agree with individual timelines being 5-dimensional Low 1-C structures and the multiverse being composed of said timelines. But not much higher, at least in regards to presented information.

Is there something more to the argument beyond "there is a timeline that contains both the human world and the demon world, which have independent temporal axes?" I might be missing something, but as it is this seems explicitly contrary to the standards.

The important thing is that it's clear that different directions are a necessity. If "separate" means something in that sense it's fine. If separate just means separate in space or separate due to one being a subset of the other, then not.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Is there something more to the argument beyond "there is a timeline that contains both the human world and the demon world, which have independent temporal axes?" I might be missing something, but as it is this seems explicitly contrary to the standards.

Let's not forget the fact that the "independent temporal axes" thing isn't even true because the two timelines were merged together. DMC supporters know this is the case, it's part of why 2-C is valid in the first place, but now they're very strangely ignoring that fact.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Now now. Everybody wait for my reply and then we'll see how it goes down.

I have a little exam tomorrow and I'm both physically and mentally exhausted anyway soo i had to take a break while i was in the process of making the post. But I'll post tomorrow soo chillax till the utter chaos. Thanks!

 

[Planck69]

Is there something more to the argument beyond "there is a timeline that contains both the human world and the demon world, which have independent temporal axes?" I might be missing something, but as it is this seems explicitly contrary to the standards.

Im going by my understanding of what's on the tiering system, not a one-off comment by another staff member. In the case that the temporal dimensions not being perpendicular isn't stated, it can be implied from how said space-time continuums exist relative to the proposed higher temporal dimension, though this is more strict.

In this case, we have direct statements of their being a collective timeline, of which the Human World and Demon World are a part. But we also have a showcase of lateral progression through time, which can be showcased by the space-time continuums changing and said change being something that can be moved past or before, basically treating the space-times as objects. Which we do have-

Let's not forget the fact that the "independent temporal axes" thing isn't even true because the two timelines were merged together. DMC supporters know this is the case, it's part of why 2-C is valid in the first place, but now they're very strangely ignoring that fact.

-with this, the lesser timelines being able to merge and there being a prior point that can be travelled to where this isn't the case.

So yeah, with both of these things in mind, a hyper-timeline is pretty clearly in place here to me.

 

[CurrySenpai]

Btw, just to clarify, this will just lead to the cosmology being upgraded and no real upgrades taking place? Wanted to clarify

 

[Deagonx]

Im going by my understanding of what's on the tiering system, not a one-off comment by another staff member. In the case that the temporal dimensions not being perpendicular isn't stated, it can be implied from how said space-time continuums exist relative to the proposed higher temporal dimension, though this is more strict.

In this case, we have direct statements of their being a collective timeline, of which the Human World and Demon World are a part. But we also have a showcase of lateral progression through time, which can be showcased by the space-time continuums changing and said change being something that can be moved past or before, basically treating the space-times as objects. Which we do have-

-with this, the lesser timelines being able to merge and there being a prior point that can be travelled to where this isn't the case.

So yeah, with both of these things in mind, a hyper-timeline is pretty clearly in place here to me.

What standard are you referencing? DontTalk is the one that rewrote the Tiering FAQ, and what's on it reflects what I am saying.

Outside of explanations which state that multiple time dimensions exist it is difficult to show that a fiction has more than one. The key point that has to be established is that there is a kind of time that flows in a different direction than the past or the future or any of the spatial directions.

Of particular consideration are instances in which timelines as a whole being changed, such that there is a timeline (or multiple timelines) before they were changed and after they were changed or created / destroyed. As the timelines as a whole are changed, the before and after in this context can't be the past and future the timelines usually use, but should be a separate direction.

One other pitfall to consider is the case of branching timelines, where one can return to a past with less timelines by just going back to a point in the regular past that was before the split happened. In such cases one has to decide based on context if that is meant or if a prior version where the splits also didn't exist in the regular future is meant. The former case doesn't qualify for an additional time dimension, while the latter might if it meets the other outlined criteria.

@Qawsedf234 You also participated in the temporal dimension revisions, so if you can help answer this question of standards that would be helpful. The Human World and Demon World are spatiotemporally independent, but when travelling to a parallel universe with a different history, both worlds are different (having been merged at this point).

The proposal is that this reflects a second temporal axis. My reading of the standards suggests that this is exactly the sort of thing that isn't an additional temporal axes.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Btw, just to clarify, this will just lead to the cosmology being upgraded and no real upgrades taking place? Wanted to clarify

Scaling will come later

 

[Lightning_XXI]

I didn't do that, btw. That justification was already there when I did the edits. It's a low 2-C feat, which merely supports the 2-C ratings. The addition of 4-A/3-C sized realms also wouldn't make a low 2-C structure 2-C, so this wouldn't upgrade the DW.

U missed the point, Nightmare's scaling is different from higher tiers

First, Nightmare was Low 1-C because the DW was Low 1-C, then it became Low 2-C, but u gave him 2-C because u reverted every Low 1-C character to 2-C, get it ? But while some characters were Low 1-C scaling to both Human and Demon Worlds, Nightmare scaled only to the Demon World, his only feat is destroying said dimension, so he scales to whatever tier that dimension is, currently Low 2-C

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

U missed the point, Nightmare's scaling is different from higher tiers

First, Nightmare was Low 1-C because the DW was Low 1-C, then it became Low 2-C, but u gave him 2-C because u reverted every Low 1-C character to 2-C, get it ? But while some characters were Low 1-C scaling to both Human and Demon Worlds, Nightmare scaled only to the Demon World, his only feat is destroying said dimension, so he scales to whatever tier that dimension is, currently Low 2-C

Yeah, it's a lower feat that makes a higher feat more consistent. If Nightmare scales to the high tiers - and I assume they do - then putting them at 2-C is fine. No different than listing a moon level feat on a profile that has planet level scaling; It's there for consistency's sake and nothing more.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

If Nightmare scales to the high tiers - and I assume they do

But he doesn't, that's the thing, his profile never states that

His feat gives consistency to the god tiers, yeah, but Nightmare isn't one of them, proof of this is him lacking other god tier ratings on other areas like speed and LS

Now now. Everybody wait for my reply and then we'll see how it goes down.

I have a little exam tomorrow and I'm both physically and mentally exhausted anyway soo i had to take a break while i was in the process of making the post. But I'll post tomorrow soo chillax till the utter chaos. Thanks!

Take your time, my friend, and good luck with the exam

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

But he doesn't, that's the thing, his profile never states that

His feat gives consistency to the god tiers, yeah, but Nightmare isn't one of them, proof of this is him lacking other god tier ratings on other areas like speed and LS

Take your time, my friend, and good luck with the exam

Then ig you can make a thread tackling the issue later.

 

[Georredannea15]

Okay dude... Here we go again!

The Underworld (or Demon World for that matter) is a home for Demons and the place where they usually reside at as we know there are only two main realms in the entire cosmology which are Human World and Demon World, the dualities of the reality, absolutely opposing one another no matter how you look at it.

But don't let this fool you into thinking that both realms are comparable to eachother. Demon World is the very product of the primordial universe which gave birth to Human World as one of its aspects in the the first place. Yeah that's right, the whole space-time continuum of the Human World is basically a part of Demon World before Pluto decided to be a lil bitch about it and yeet the thing out of the whole reality for stability's sake.

So we have this fact and many scans that indicates Demon World is a place that houses countless L2C structures within its scope, being infinite in size or not doesn't matter coz Demon World will engulf it nonetheless and you need to travel between realms through portals soo it's safe to assume that the realms are seemingly displaced on the fifth spatial axis and would highlight the argument for 5D Demon World already. Even 6D when you factor in how Demon World has its own temporal axis in totality via Sparda sealing the flow of time of the entire Demon World as well as it being called Chaos Timeline in Peak of Mid.

But this is just a tip of the iceberg.

The fact that it is travel between realms with portals makes it 5-D, even the fact that the human and demon realms are two separate realms and have their own time axes makes the space outside a 5-D space separating 4-D axes, but it is not enough to make it Low 1-C, for Low 1-C, you need to prove that this space, which is 5-D, is infinite along the 5th axis (Basically this is what was required at the standards threshold, that's why I say this)

This is also stated in the FAQ page, not entirely Low 1-C but a good basis for Low 1-C (we'll see)

As for 6-D, the fact that the demon realm has its own timeline does not qualify it as a hyper-timeline, it only supports that they are separate and independent realms. It does not provide extra dimensionality in any way.
Because in new standards, independent timelines can extend along the same direction.

(That is, imagine two independent 1D lines extending along the same direction, which makes the axis of motion of those two lines still 1D)

But with more context I think I can agree with Low 1-C because the mechanics are very suitable for it, but I don't think it will happen only with these statements

This section covers regarding the special dimensions we encountered throughout the entire series. Lets start with the more obvious one. Helfilth's domain (as we like to call it for now) is also called "Nightmare space" where we fought his Nightmare versions of bosses and himself at last. Here the description of the RAID mode was interesting regarding her... Apparently the place she wanders at transcends space and time alike. Implying the realm where she resides at is a fifth dimensional plane of existence as that is the only description that goes with what we have here. Secondly, we have Mundus' palace or Marble Vault as some may call it is a very special place that has two infinite stuff stored within it and on top of that, we have two separate statements that says that Mundus and his palace by extension exists outside of the flow of time... While being within Underworld... And having his alternate versions throughout the multiverse. Now what this can be taken as the palace/dimension of Mundus is soo greater in comparison to other dimensions that it goes beyond the scope of your usual temporal axis (4D) which should be a backup support of 5D realms within Demon World which would bump the cosmology scaling soo far upto 7D.

It is called "the spirit that wandering beyond space and time." And at the same time, the fact that he is called the lord of dimensional rifts actually shows that the context here mostly means "outside space and time". Doesn't look like a dimensional superiority.

This is very interesting part of the cosmology that we never noticed before till recently. The first realization came when Dante was teleported in the alternate timeline where Mundus won the war against Humans as those dumbasses betrayed Sparda who was helping him which led to Demon World totally consuming Human World as a whole. Now this is where the curiosity stood up... The timeline includes both Human and Demon World despite both worlds being totally separated from one another either via dimensional wall or literal space-time fabric. This and Demons couldn't even travel to Human World without any special means like Hell Gate and so on.

This can mean only one thing... There is another layer of spatial and temporal axis that covers the structure of Demon World itself. The spatial axis comes from Demon World itself being displaced on an axis where it doesn't collide with Human World which, may i remind, is absolutely out of its reach through either lore or gameplay as well as there being a space between these two realms. Whereas the temporal axis comes from obviously the overarching timeline that contains both worlds totally separated from one another within its storage. This would bump the scaling upto 9D for the scalable feats of Demon Gods in the verse.

I have a vital question for Hypertimeline. How does Mundus teleport to the timeline here? So with a "time travel"?


Edit: Yes, I noticed something new here, it is called "alternative timeline"... So, if there was an bigger inclusive timeline and the teleporting doing with time travel here, it would definitely be a hypertimeline. But it's an alternative timeline

That being said, I'll make this very clear and short. The multiverse of DMC works on MWI (Many World Interpretation) theory and since there are multiple scans for Endless/Infinite Demons within Demon World so the possible timelines would also be infinite. This is further backed up by Chen having infinite knowledge which stems from his future seeing capabilities via Beastheads. And thus, we conclude the 10D range for beings comparable to Beastheads and beyond.

It's definitely 2-A, But I don't know if it's higher.

The Human World and Demon World are spatiotemporally independent, but when travelling to a parallel universe with a different history, both worlds are different (having been merged at this point).

This means that these two realms are independent of each other, and this space that keeps the two realms independent must have a 5th axis (i.e. must be 5-D) but not Low 1-C. For Spatially Low 1-C, they have to prove that this axis is large enough for Low 1-C

Anyway, 2-A for sure. Low 1-C, on the other hand, seems muddy with just these statements, especially in the case of Mundus, the fact that it is an alternate timeline makes its situation similar to this.

My situation is still the same for separate timelines, the fact that this realm has its own time makes it separate from each other, it does not make it a hypertimeline. Well, this would be more descriptive

But with a little more context, I might agree with Low 1-C because the mechanics and foundation of cosmology are conducive to that. I don't know if there will be more