Why The Presence is not omnipotent?

[Become_the_strongest]

When he said he was shaped by forces i think The presence was talking about the writers. That was a 4th wall feat

 

[Promestein]

Didn't he die

 

[Become_the_strongest]

First off. 2016 Lucifer series isn't canon to the DCU, so the DCU God isn't dead.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertigo_(DC_Comics)…

Second, According to Greg Rucka, The Presence is True Omni.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=16707

"The sort of unspoken rule in the DCU is that the Judeo-Christian God sits above all others."

Third, the Primal Monitor=The Presence=The Jack Kirby idea of the Source (God. Not the Jim Starlin idea of a Extradimensional Cosmic Being that is Life and Anti-Life, that creates and is created by the Universes.)

http://www.ign.com/…/…/03/inside-the-mind-of-grant-morrison…

"It's the notion that the white page itself is a void, and in the context of the DC Universe, well that's God or The Source"

"Beyond that crumbling ledge in Monitor-World, those concepts don't exist and it's all non-dual Monitor mind, or God, or Kirby's Source, in which all contradictions are resolved into unity"

Now, how can these three VERY different beings be one and the same?

Well, according to Mike Carrey, it's the dreams and beliefs of humankind (or whatever sentient being that is viewing God at that moment). To humans, he's The Presence, the Judeo-Christian God. To the New Gods, he's The Source, an infinite being that dwarfs even the most powerful of them. To Monitors, he's the Overmonitor aka the Primal Monitor, the blank page that writes all the stories unconsciously.

https://twitter.com/michaelcarey1…/status/684781343209861120

So, in conclusion, the Presence is NOT dead, he IS true Omni, and he and the Primal Monitor and the Jack Kirby Source are one and the same.

 

[Jucaslucas]

Didn't Michael kill him or something? When Elaine appeared?

 

[Become_the_strongest]

Gabriel killed Yahweh, and that was in Vertigo comics. The Main DCU revealed that Presence was alive and well, still giving Phantom Stranger his marching orders

 

[Become_the_strongest]

Any question? No?

 

[A_Sword_Dancer]

I don't believe we recognize omnipotence here, since we have no way of comparing 'true omnipotence' with the 'apparent omnipotence' of various beings in other verses.

 

[Become_the_strongest]

^ Im still trying figure what is that

 

[Huesito88]

Yeah but the presence is like what 1-b so if he is possibly tier 0 then well we can compare it better. As someone stated when two 0 fight we have to see who is next in line and since dc only has b-1 after their tier 0 then we can't judge how powerful my a-1 would be tier 0 in your universe but not in mine universe

 

[Huesito88]

More evidence?

 

[Become_the_strongest]

Yeah but the presence is like what 1-b so if he is possibly tier 0 then well we can compare it better. As someone stated when two 0 fight we have to see who is next in line and since dc only has b-1 after their tier 0 then we can't judge how powerful my a-1 would be tier 0 in your universe but not in mine universe

So what The Presence's tier now? Still 1-B?

 

[Huesito88]

Not sure more people need to look at your post and give their thoughts. Also anymore evidence like existing above the cocepts of all dimensions that would change a lot of people's mind in a possible tier 0 presence. Also if you didn't know the primal monitor got downgraded to a tier 1-a Unknown so he is no longer a tier 0 meaning if presence = primal monitor = writer that would mean they would be tier 1-A Unknown

 

[Become_the_strongest]

I know, i will post more evidence if necessary

 

[Become_the_strongest]

btw an effort to put the 'Presence isn't omnipotent' nonsense to rest.

 

[Huesito88]

If you succeed I commend you

 

[Become_the_strongest]

But admins doesnt reply my post

 

[Huesito88]

They will I am sure eventually

 

[Become_the_strongest]

They will I am sure eventually

1 hour later and nobody watch this

 

[Battlemania]

Ask one of them.

 

[Become_the_strongest]

One of them on #2 and he not reply anymore

 

[Battlemania]

I asked ant and Kuuichigo, either or should answer soon.

 

[Battlemania]

Ant: "Well, given that he stated himself that he was shaped by the imaginations of mankind, along with being killed by Gabriel, it seems that all we can do is scale him from being more powerful than Michael, who was able to create a full multiverse."

 

[Become_the_strongest]

Give him this pls

 

[Become_the_strongest]

Still alive in the main DCU, the Lucifer series is non-canon, And he needs to understand that him being shaped by people's imaginations just dictates what form he manifests to people as. That's how he can be The Presence, Mawa, and Brahma at once. Proven when Michael turns into Shiva simply because he entered India

 

[Antvasima]

Well, as I stated in response to the post on my wall:

"Well, as far as I understand, the Sandman, and the follow-up Lucifer series, simply exist on a higher level of existence than the regular ever-shifting DC continuity.

And in either case, the character featured within this wiki is the one appearing in the Lucifer comicbook, not a character that has never appeared in person.

Also, that is not what Mike Carey intended. The Presence explicitly stated that he was created by external forces, the imagination of humanity. We are not going to adjust his tier. Period."

Also, "Omnipotence" is a term thrown around a lot both within western comicbooks and elsewhere. Without clarifications regarding what specifically that is intended in terms of scale, it does not really mean anything. Odi has been called "omnipotent" plenty of times, and it does not make him any more powerful because of it.

 

[Become_the_strongest]

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=32062 Dan Dido himself: " And we understood why there was a distinction between the DC Universe and Vertigo. You have to take each story in its own way, but there are two very distinct approaches to how we're bringing Constantine to DCU and Vertigo simultaneously. And most importantly "So if a story subject works for the DC Universe, we can use that for story material, but if it doesn't, it can stay ― and it's important that it stays ― with Vertigo."

 

[Become_the_strongest]

^This is consistent with an interview he had at SDCC where he reinterated that Vertigo titles don't count towards DC

 

[Become_the_strongest]

Also, you're wrong about Lucifer vol1 being Canon to the main DCU, as it's contradicted by Spectre vol3, Vol4, and Day of Vengeance

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the original Sandman series has definitely interacted with the regular DCU, and Lucifer was a direct continuation.

As for Dan Didio, he is the most universally hated man in comics for a good reason, as he has singlehandedly completely wrecked all semblance of coherent continuity, marketability, and everything iconic and enjoyable about DC Comics, but nevertheless, the character that we feature here is the one from Lucifer, not any other iteration, and we have to strive for some semblance of coherence within the wiki, despite the absolute mess that DC has placed itself in.

 

[Become_the_strongest]

Well, the original Sandman series has definitely interacted with the regular DCU, and Lucifer was a direct continuation.
As for Dan Didio, he is the most universally hated man in comics for a good reason, as he has singlehandedly completely wrecked all semblance of coherent continuity, enjoyability, marketability, and everything iconic and enjoyable about DC Comics, but nevertheless, the character that we feature here is the one from Lucifer, not any other iteration, and we have to strive for some semblance of coherence within the wiki, despite the absolute mess that DC has placed itself in.

So please can you put The Presence on 1-A or unknow like Overvoid please?

 

[Become_the_strongest]

If you put Overvoid at 1-A, so The Presence = The GEB = Overvoid = Wally the god boy = The source

 

[Antvasima]

No. We have no proof of the Vertigo character remotely being that high.

 

[Become_the_strongest]

No. We have no proof of the Vertigo character remotely being that high.

I said The Presence in DCU

 

[Become_the_strongest]

Idk why you put Overvoid at 1-A that's basically a machine the writers use for all of creation and beyond. idk if you can even call it a character tbh, but for arguments sake let's say it is. if it's a character and not a plot device then it's feat is the creation and housing of the multiverse no? well Presence held it in his hands and could make and destroy the multiverse as well. without a definable updated hierarchy we have to pretty much go with Presence. he was the established Omni and nothing has taken that from him this far.

 

[Antvasima]

Unless we get explicit proof othervise, we can only interpret it as that the Presence simply held the DC multiverse within his hands. That is where the focus of the series was, with Michael Demiurgos creating one previously in conjunction with calling it a "totality".

As for the Overvoid/Primal Monitor, as far as I understand, it was stated to possess a consciousness, and heavily implied to exist on a level completely beyond all of reality.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, it would be confusing to feature two different Presence pages, especially as what little we have seen of him in the Phantom Stranger (manifesting as a dog), was rather unimpressive, comparatively speaking. Beating up Trigon and Neron is not much in the grand scale of things.

 

[Become_the_strongest]

Also, it would be confusing to feature two different Presence pages, especially as what little we have seen of him in the Phantom Stranger (manifesting as a dog), was rather unimpressive, comparatively speaking. Beating up Trigon and Neron is not much in the grand scale of things.

And you must know that creation The Presence held in hand isnt multiverse

 

[Antvasima]

Again, until we get any explicit statements about that it is a beyond dimensional structure, we cannot treat it as such.

The Presence has been shown as a quite limited character, created and empowered by humanity's belief in him, and possible to kill by the archangels. As such, we definitely cannot assume him to be immeasurably beyond multiversal scale.

 

[Become_the_strongest]

Again, until we get any explicit statements about that it is a beyond dimensional structure, we cannot treat it as such.
The Presence has been shown as a quite limited character, created and empowered by humanity's belief in him, and possible to kill by the archangels. As such, we definitely cannot assume him to be immeasurably beyond multiversal scale.

THE PRESENCE IN DCU PLEASE, THAT'S THE PRESENCE IN VERTIGO

 

[Antvasima]

You appeared to be talking about the image of the Vertigo Presence holding "creation".

Also, calm down.