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Yes do you read my post in #3?Antvasima said:
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Why The Presence is not omnipotent?
- Thread starter Become_the_strongest
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Okay. In order:
Vertigo has regularly interacted with the DC Universe, such as members of the Endless appearing within different stories, so it is not so simple as stating that they are completely separate, regardless of claims from the idiot in charge/Dan Didio. It can, however, more easily be interpreted as that they take place within different universes within the same multiversal structure.
Unless Greg Rucka is in a position of authority within DC, and explains exactly how said "omnipotence" is defined, it does not mean anything.
All that was mentioned by name within the Grant Morrisson interview is that he considered the Overvoid and the Source to be the same being. Nothing was mentioned about the Presence. Of course, in itself, this may warrant merging the two profiles into one (Deleting the page for The Source, and stating it, and "God" as aliases for the Overvoid/Primal Monitor).
The atheist Mike Carey simply stated that the Presence was created by the imagination of mankind. That is it, as far as I am aware.
Vertigo has regularly interacted with the DC Universe, such as members of the Endless appearing within different stories, so it is not so simple as stating that they are completely separate, regardless of claims from the idiot in charge/Dan Didio. It can, however, more easily be interpreted as that they take place within different universes within the same multiversal structure.
Unless Greg Rucka is in a position of authority within DC, and explains exactly how said "omnipotence" is defined, it does not mean anything.
All that was mentioned by name within the Grant Morrisson interview is that he considered the Overvoid and the Source to be the same being. Nothing was mentioned about the Presence. Of course, in itself, this may warrant merging the two profiles into one (Deleting the page for The Source, and stating it, and "God" as aliases for the Overvoid/Primal Monitor).
The atheist Mike Carey simply stated that the Presence was created by the imagination of mankind. That is it, as far as I am aware.
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DC has one of the worst power hierarchy possible. On top of that various characters have claimed themself to be omnipotent/or others have claimed the said character to be omnipotent. Its a real mess for eg: if we put presence as tier 1A then we will have to upgrade lucifer and many other characters as well which does not make any sense because luci/michel's best feat is multiversal at best and that to at his full power and presence is no way in hell a tier 0 as there are many things that contradict it. So far only the primal monitor seems to be a tier 1A material.
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I have now attempted to adjust the relevant pages (The Primal Monitor, The Presence, The Great Evil Beast), and deleted The Source.
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The main DC-Multiverse and the Vertigo titles exist within the same fictional universe. That's not even an argument anymore. Characters such as Dream, Destiny, Constantine, Swamp Thing, The Spectre, Zatanna all have crossed-over between the two.
Edit: Here you will find Dream of the Endless interacting with Mr.Mxy of all characters, and assisting the imp in defeating a 10th Dimensional being.
Edit: Here you will find Dream of the Endless interacting with Mr.Mxy of all characters, and assisting the imp in defeating a 10th Dimensional being.
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Also. Grant Morrison has said that The Source, The Presence and The Overmonitor are the same thing, but that is in the sense that they are all aspects of God, and exist beyond the DC Multiverse. The Presence is definitely a separate being, who even appeared in "person" and interacted with characters in Death of the New Gods, which Grant Morrison has said in another interview to be canon to Final Crisis.
Finally, the Overmonitor is At least 1-A. It is the infinite and endless white Canvas of all possible creation, absolutely transcended over all and to it's perspective all of DC Comics is a fictional bacteria, with no distinction between the likes of Batman and Lucifer Morningstar, per say.
What makes it not Tier 0 is the fact that in Grant Morrison's own crazy cosmology, it didn't create DC Comics willingly, but rather someone else drew it This is explained as The Overmonitor is inteded as a analogue for the page in which the comic is created, and said someone is likely inteded to be the Real Life author. Such massive breaks of the 4th Wall are very common in DC Comics, specially in Grant Morrison stories where the 4th Wall simply doesn't exist.
Edit: https://web.archive.org/web/2013060...com/123-grant-morrison-on-final-crisis-1.html
https://gyazo.com/b0c4549fa52900400693ff5e597448c9
Here's Grant Morrison explaining the contradictions between Death of the New Gods and Final Crisis. They are simply inconsistencies due to they being two stories written by two writers in different times, but it doesn't make Death of the New Gods non-canonical.
Finally, the Overmonitor is At least 1-A. It is the infinite and endless white Canvas of all possible creation, absolutely transcended over all and to it's perspective all of DC Comics is a fictional bacteria, with no distinction between the likes of Batman and Lucifer Morningstar, per say.
What makes it not Tier 0 is the fact that in Grant Morrison's own crazy cosmology, it didn't create DC Comics willingly, but rather someone else drew it This is explained as The Overmonitor is inteded as a analogue for the page in which the comic is created, and said someone is likely inteded to be the Real Life author. Such massive breaks of the 4th Wall are very common in DC Comics, specially in Grant Morrison stories where the 4th Wall simply doesn't exist.
Edit: https://web.archive.org/web/2013060...com/123-grant-morrison-on-final-crisis-1.html
https://gyazo.com/b0c4549fa52900400693ff5e597448c9
Here's Grant Morrison explaining the contradictions between Death of the New Gods and Final Crisis. They are simply inconsistencies due to they being two stories written by two writers in different times, but it doesn't make Death of the New Gods non-canonical.
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Also, the "God" which The Spectre, The Panthom Stranger and the like interact with is known as "The Voice of the Godhead ", and he is another aspect of God. He is not the main Yahweh, who by the way isn't fully dead, but rather unconscious and healing himself in a coocoon. So there's no contradictions there.
In The Spectre comic, The Presence and The Source are also treated as the same being, or part of the same being.
http://i.imgur.com/I74hBG4.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/SfVKOxN.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/jbBT9TB.jpg
In short: The Presence, The Great Evil Beast, The Source, The Voice of the Godhead, The Hand of Creation and Wally the God Boy are all aspects of the same being, God, of which the first three are the greater aspects. As far as feats go, they are all roughly comparable most of the time, being the creator of the entire DC Multiverse. Monitor-Mind The Overvoid is far above all other Supreme Beings in DC as far as his power goes. It is an absolutely transcendend being beyond all forms of existence and duality, and is the canvas of all possible creation and a metaphor for the page in which the comic is drawn. Some writers might treat all said beings as the same thing, but the in-universe evidence points otherwise.
My interest in DC Comics and it's cosmology has been growing as of late, and I plan of assisting with the various profiles and creating new ones.
In The Spectre comic, The Presence and The Source are also treated as the same being, or part of the same being.
http://i.imgur.com/I74hBG4.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/SfVKOxN.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/jbBT9TB.jpg
In short: The Presence, The Great Evil Beast, The Source, The Voice of the Godhead, The Hand of Creation and Wally the God Boy are all aspects of the same being, God, of which the first three are the greater aspects. As far as feats go, they are all roughly comparable most of the time, being the creator of the entire DC Multiverse. Monitor-Mind The Overvoid is far above all other Supreme Beings in DC as far as his power goes. It is an absolutely transcendend being beyond all forms of existence and duality, and is the canvas of all possible creation and a metaphor for the page in which the comic is drawn. Some writers might treat all said beings as the same thing, but the in-universe evidence points otherwise.
My interest in DC Comics and it's cosmology has been growing as of late, and I plan of assisting with the various profiles and creating new ones.
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Another evidence that The Presence isn't Omnipotent: He is equal to The Great Evil Beast.
Edit: I believe there should be a clear divide between all the High level cosmic beings such as Grant Morrison's Monitor pantheon, The Endless, the Demiurgic Archangels and the various aspects of God, with Grant Morrison's Metatextual Characters, such as The Overmonitor (The page itself), The Writer (Impossible to Define) and The Empty Hand (Supposed to represent a "Reader putting the comic down, thus ending everything")
A lot of the information and feats I am getting I took from this excellent Cosmology / Respect Thread:
https://forums.spacebattles.com/thr...cosmology-and-cosmic-hierarchy-thread.313227/
Edit: I believe there should be a clear divide between all the High level cosmic beings such as Grant Morrison's Monitor pantheon, The Endless, the Demiurgic Archangels and the various aspects of God, with Grant Morrison's Metatextual Characters, such as The Overmonitor (The page itself), The Writer (Impossible to Define) and The Empty Hand (Supposed to represent a "Reader putting the comic down, thus ending everything")
A lot of the information and feats I am getting I took from this excellent Cosmology / Respect Thread:
https://forums.spacebattles.com/thr...cosmology-and-cosmic-hierarchy-thread.313227/
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Okay, so should I restore The Source page, and undo the changes that I performed to The Primal Monitor, The Presence, and The Great Evil Beast profiles, considering that the previous versions fit much closer to what you stated above?
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Yes, it would be appreciated. Also, this is a much more fitting image for The Source, since it is actually it's physical form: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/File:The_Source_Physical.jpg
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Ok so please close this.
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