Why isn't Thanos (with all the Stones) 3-A?

[AKM sama]

That point is flawed. The core concept of the stones embodies much more than what is displayed in the MCU. In fact all the characters and the very setting is much different than the comics. You can't use a totally different canon to support one that's a totally different adaptation.

Wanda needed similar power source to damage the stone yes, but she also needed a sufficiently powerful AP, according to Vision.

 

[Ryukama]

My point is just that everyone is acting like a universal guantlet is just too incredulous when it really isn't given the source material it's based on. That's it. But even that aside there is nothing going against these statements. All 6 stones is a brand new form, yet apparently it's being judged by the feats of explicitly far weaker forms and the fact that it got stopped right before it could do what it was said to do. I think it's worth at least a "possibly 3-A" like how the profile currently has "likely far higher" for that reason.

Wanda's raw power alone isn't what's doing this however. Also even then, it's just an outlier for Wanda not proof the Guantlet isn't that powerful unless you're saying the stones should be downgraded to Tier 6.

 

[AKM sama]

Nothing going against is no grounds to upgrade something to this level. There is nothing going for it either. A statement without anything backing it up is just not enough and shouldn't be used. Feats > statements and I feel we're being too lax with statements. Wanda destroyed the mind stone, only the power stone has shown tier 5 AP. The durability of the stones is unknown except for Wanda destroying the mind stone.

A show where every other feat by the stones is incredibly lower than 3-A, and even half a dozen people knowledgeable on the subject didn't know about the stones being capable of that with no lore or backstory serving as evidence. It was just a statement made by Thanos which was honestly a pure assumption of the highest level where he had no way of verifying it until he actually tried it, which would have most probably killed anyone who tried it and wouldn't live to tell about it. It's baseless.

It's worth "likely far higher" which is already on his profile.

 

[Ryukama]

All 6 stones is a brand new form which is explicitly far more powerful than any of the individual stones. The individual stones not showing this isn't an antifeat for all 6. And the reason the 6 stones don't show the "feat" is because Tony stopped Thanos. That was the whole point of the scene. It's not uncommon for the stakes of how powerful a weapon/attack is to be established before it's stopped from causing that kind of destruction. And it's completely arbitrary to decide "Oh well this Universe Level statement can be used for a 'likely far higher' but not for a 'possibly Universe Level' for some reason". Either use the statement for the rating or not. But don't use the statement to justify some "far higher" rating then say it can't be used for the rating it's explicitly stated to be.

 

[Redacted_Flinn]

1. Thor and Wanda destroying the stones isn't AP related at all. The movie stated Wanda's powers are similar to the powers of the stone. (Mind/ESP Based Magic = Mind/ESP Based Magic) That's why the stone was damaged, Vision never said anything about AP.

2. Thor, Captain Marvel and Doctor Strange being as strong as the Infinity Gauntlet is asinine and disingenuous. Plank got curbstomped by one stone, Thanos is vastly superior to Strange with an incomplete gauntlet, and Thor... Thor sucker punched Thanos, and was using a weapon that operated like the IF's Kryptonite. It's kinda the same thing as saying "Wow, Batman beat up Superman with a green rock. Clearly Superman is a pushover..."

3. The Stones were created by the Big Bang, harmed Dormammu, effortlessly killed/resurrected half of all life in the universe, and there's the various statements from the characters that say the glove is universal... I've seen characters upgraded on this site with far less evidence.

 

[AKM sama]

@Ryu "Likely far higher" also comes from the fact that the 6 stones combined should be more powerful than just the power stone. Plus the full power of the 6 stones could very well be higher according to Thanos's statement as we never saw the IG's full potential, but it's not enough to pinpoint it on 3-A.

@Redacted Flinn

Watch it again please. Vision did say that. And please provide source of other universal statements about the stones. I already addressed being created after big bang point. And I don't remember the stone harming Dormammu. Killing and resurrecting life is hax which is already in his profile.

"I've seen characters upgraded on this site with far less evidence."

That's no reason to be arguing for a character's upgradation. Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[Ryukama]

@Ryu "Likely far higher" also comes from the fact that the 6 stones combined should be more powerful than just the power stone.

Yet everyone is acting like the 6 stones cannot be at the level it's stated to be just because an individual stone didn't show this level, even when the 6 are explicitly far more powerful and this is essentially a brand new form.

Plus the full power of the 6 stones could very well be higher according to Thanos's statement, but it's not enough to pinpoint it on 3-A.
But Thanos's statement is 3-A. If you're going to rate "likely far higher" for a Universal statement then there's no reason to just not put "Possibly 3-A". It's like having someone as "At least High 6-A, likely far higher" because he was stated to be a planetbuster, but then claiming that his far higher can't be 5-B even though it's based on a 5-B statement.

 

[Ryukama]

But anyways I gotta go to bed soon. It's almost 2 AM for me and I have to wake up early for a full day. I'm fine with whatever is decided for the profiles but I already gave my input.

 

[AKM sama]

Thanos's statement implies that the stones are likely far higher, which is also a fact since all 6 stones should be stronger than one and we never saw their full potential. But the statement isn't enough to conclude that the "far higher" limit is 3-A because of the reasons I already mentioned earlier.

 

[Redacted_Flinn]

AKM sama I'm sensing a lot of cut straws here...

1. The reality stone alone was stated to be able to destroy the nine realms... Which in the MCU are planets, so the stones just being planet level is stupid. Each stone by themselves is probably Drawf Star Level if you want a basic guess for the stone's power. "Likely Far Higher" seems kinda lazy...

2. Vision mostly said Wanda's powers were the key to damaging the stone, if it was just "You're powers allow you to hit it harder". then why didn't the stone blow up when Thanos bashed Plank with it? If AP has anything to do with what Vision said, it's not a very big one. (Plus he was convincing her to do something she really didn't want to do, so telling her that if her powers didn't aline with the stones, she'd be ****** doesn't sound very smart...

3. It trapped Dormammu in a time loop... In a realm where time doesn't exist and has no bearing. It essentially circumvernted the rules of Dormammu's universe. I didn't mean Strange used the stone to bash his head in...

4. Thanos woundn't die from destroying the universe. You can't really prove otherwise... Thanos used the stones power twice and didn't die, Hulk used the stones and didn't die... As long as you can survive the glove damaging you, you can't die from the effects of the glove.

 

[AKM sama]

1. It was brought up and rejected. We don't know the mechanism or the time in which it would be able to do something like that. Plus no feat of the reality stone comes close to dwarf star level.

2. Don't know why you're bringing this up. I never said her similar power type had nothing to do with it. Just pointed out that she wouldn't be able to destroy the stone if she didn't have sufficient AP.

3. Time hax. Not AP. Already on profile.

4. Thanos almost died. Gamma saved Hulk. Tony died. Depends on how strong the character is and how you use the stones.

Again:

1. Every other feat by the IG is incredibly lower than the proposed claim.

2. Half a dozen people knowledgeable on the subject didn't know about whether the stones could do that.

3. No lore or backstory serving as evidence of proposed claim.

4. It was just a theory by a single character which was honestly a pure assumption of the highest level where he had no way of verifying it until he actually tried it.

5. The source and method for his conclusion isn't known in the least as nobody ever tried it or lived to tell about it, no history, nothing. How he even reached that conclusion is unknown. Which makes it look like a big baseless assumption.

This claim has literally no legs to stand on. Just an unproven, unsourced, untested, unsupported, unverified, unfounded statement by a single character.

 

[Redacted_Flinn]

1. Destroying multiple planets, flat ones or otherwise, would warrant a Dwarf Star Level rating or higher.

2. Because you brought it up twice, and Wanda's feat was a hax based one, not an AP one... So using them to say the stones are country-level is stupid.

3. Thanos was badly wounded by having all of the stones explode in his face! The "gamma radiation saving hulk" thing is a flat out lie, and regardless... How does that disprove what I said about the Gauntlet? Wether you use the glove to destroy your enemies or scratch your nose, it hurts you. it's not a Newton's 3rd Law type thing...

4. Most of the feats in Infinity War were relatively causal, and with an Incomplete Gauntlet. So no shit the feats at the time aren't comparable the completed Gauntlet.

5. The individual stones are either country level, planet level, or higher. Most people said something around that range. This point changes nothing, please stop using it...

6. Being created by the big bang... Fact. Killing/resurrecting half of all life in the universe... Fact. (Before you say that's just hax, Po can decontruct matter with his Chi... Is he as strong as Thanos now?), various WOG statements that the glove is a universal weapon... That happened as well.

7. Your next two points, if correct, mean two things... Thanos and the rest of the cast are incompetent morons, and the plot of the movie was a waste of time. Why would Thanos try to use the glove to destroy the universe if it wasn't going to work? Why didn't Strange, Hulk, Iron Manor any of the other characters know about this? Why did they assume Thanos was right? They created a perfect replica of the gauntlet, and they dont know how strong it is? Or anything about its capabilities? I could keep going, but I'm assuming you get the picture.

8. "This claim has literally no legs to stand on. Just an unproven, unsourced, untested, unsupported, unverified, unfounded statement by a single character" Dramatic hyperboly, much?

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

@Redacted, you have a great point about Dr. Strange. He saw 14 million outcomes where Thanos succeeded. So if he could see the future I think he would've definitely made note that destroying the universe would kill Thanos because he saw that happen millions of times. Nb4 you say he only saw the decimation, then that is also incorrect because he knew how Endgame was gonna end.

Like I said before, if the Gauntlet isn't universal then Ironman died for nothing.

 

[AKM sama]

1. And that doesn't address what I already said.

2. Again, watch it again. She needs sufficient AP. Why are you repeating the same thing when I already addressed it?

3. Will not even address it as that has no bearing on the matter.

4. Still doesn't prove the legitimacy of Thanos's statement. The complete IG was used twice. One time it failed against Stormbreaker and the other time it performed a hax. Nothing supports universal AP.

5. Yet nobody said that the combined power of those stones could do what was claimed.

6. Again, stop repeating yourself. I already addressed those points. Would like to see the "WOG" statement which claimed it.

7. Uhh nothing you said made sense. It was Thanos's claim so obviously he believes it lol. And the rest of the heroes would obviously stop Thanos from ever getting his hands on the stones again irrespective of anything. Most of them know less than Thanos so why would they take any chances lol? To suffer again? The plot makes perfect sense.

8. Wow argument 10/10.

 

[Redacted_Flinn]

You repeated youself multiple times, I was just answering your questions buddy. And Thor sucker punched Thanos, even the guy who directed the movie said that. Btw, "Wow argument 10/10." You suck at jokes, try again...

 

[ArgosaxDespair]

Thor only sucker punched Thanos with the first lightning. Thanos got up, fired a blast from the IS and clearly reacted to Thor in time. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with the update btw.

 

[Dzhindzholia]

You can't just upgrade the character from the baseless statement and assumptions.

 

[Redacted_Flinn]

forgot to mention, Russo said Thor's axe acted like Kryptonite to the IG. which was probably intentional since the dwarf guy wanted revenge against Thanos, but yeah... Stormbreaker was deisgned to kill Thanos, similar to Jack's sword with Aku. That type of shtick...

 

[GojiBoyForever]

Redacted Flinn and Zamasu Chan seem to make the most sense to me.

 

[Antvasima]

Regardless if 3-A is accepted or not, it obviously cannot scale to Thanos's physical statistics or to any of the heroes who opposed him.

 

[Tonybalongna]

Regardless if 3-A is accepted or not, it obviously cannot scale to Thanos's physical statistics or to any of the heroes who opposed him.

of course not, it's just a feat for the infinity gauntlet

 

[GyroNutz]

6. Being created by the big bang... Fact. Killing/resurrecting half of all life in the universe... Fact. (Before you say that's just hax, Po can decontruct matter with his Chi... Is he as strong as Thanos now?)

He's stronger

So this isn't just a joke post, I disagree with Thanos' statement being just an assumption. Thanos is a genius who has researched the infinity stones extensively, he's not going to reverse engineer pym particles and lead a massive attack for a plan that he has no idea if it will work or not.

 

[Ionliosite]

Regardless if 3-A is accepted or not, it obviously cannot scale to Thanos's physical statistics or to any of the heroes who opposed him.

Not only that, doing such feat will likely be suicidal if we take into count how damaged Thanos was from erasing half of the life in the universe. So the IG would be 3-A, but Thanos himself and everybody who scales to him won't.

 

[Redacted_Flinn]

Ionliosite Sorry to bother you, but I already adress this issue before. Thanos used the glove twice, the first time he slightly harmed his arm after using the glove. The second time making the stones blow up in his face... And he didn't die. It operates kinda similar to Superman's Supernova ability. A big semi-kamikaze attack against the opponent that leave Thanos in a severely weakened state. Idk, that's just from what i've noticed...

 

[Antvasima]

Well, if Ryukama is fine with that the Gauntlet is 3-A via an environmental destruction suicide move that does not scale to any regular combat statistics, I suppose that I am as well, but it is best to get some staff consensus.

 

[Xulrev]

1. Thanos' statement of reducing the universe to atoms is both several orders of magnitude above the limitations of the Gauntlet shown by feats, and worthless as a statement in context considering:

2. The Gauntlet would have to be intact still for the universe to be re-made, per his wishes, and since simply wiping half the biological life in the universe mostly ruined the Gauntlet, it's not possible to believe this is possible without an absurd timeframe involved.

These two points simply haven't been well enough engaged to give the Stones 3-A as a rating with the Gauntlet. Is it possible to reduce the universe to atoms over time with the Stones and then rebuild it? Yes. Can it be done in one snap? Based on feats, NO.

Again: Wiping half the life in the universe mostly ruins the Gauntlet and even Thanos didn't think he would be able to use it again and nearly died simply reducing the Stones to dust (they were not destroyed per the Russos , simply turned to atoms).

Destroying the entire universe is several dozens of orders of magnitude superior to what the first Snap did (explicitly, the atomization of trillions of mortal beings); if performing a feat that equates to 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% of universal-destruction (current 5-A rating) nearly brought ruin to the Gauntlet, what on Earth makes people believe a 3-A feat is possible that doesn't rely on hyperbole and hype? And further, how does Thanos proceed to further his plan of recreation of the Universe?

It's a long-term plan obviously, to argue otherwise really is just ignoring all the facts presented. These aren't new points really in the longer discussion, but nothing has been brought that engages the raw mind-numbingly huge numbers and math of it all. The proposed rating is literally 10^56 times superior than the current rating and relies SOLELY AND SPECIFICALLY ON A SINGLE, EXPLICITLY INSANE, CHARACTER'S STATEMENT.

It's pretty asinine, is the long and short of it all. There's not nearly enough evidence for it and arguing for it would be quite inaccurate.

 

[Antvasima]

On second thought Xulrev seems to make sense. It was probably unreliable unproven boasting.

What do you think Ryukama?

 

[Redacted_Flinn]

1. i've already adress the "He doesn't regularly blow up universes, so that's impossible" thing 3 times.

2. It burned Thanos's arm when he did the snap, the glove itself was 98% unharmed. Even when he blew up the stones in his face, the glove was still intact. The glove doesn't damage itself when it is used, it damages the user of the glove. The much less durable Iron Man version of the glove wasn't even scratch by the glove being used twice, destroying the universe would hurt Thanos FAR more than it would hurt the glove.

3. Thanos never said anything about not using the stones again, he destroyed the stones BECAUSE he didn't want them used again.

4. I seriously doubt Thanos ending countless trillions of lives would equal out to just planet level. And again, the Reality stone can destroy 9 different planets by itself, the power stone alone can also casually blow up planets... Thanos is way above planet level even if you think universal is impossible for him.

5. Ignoring the salt mine of saltines: The proposed rating is literally 10^56 times superior than the current rating and relies SOLELY AND SPECIFICALLY ON A SINGLE, EXPLICITLY INSANE, CHARACTER'S STATEMENT. So we have Thanos. The cold, calculated, highly intelligent conquerer of worlds... The guy who could match wits with people smart enough to build time machines... Is gonna threaten, fight multiple heroes to the death, and then kill himself for something that obviously wouldn't work? And Strange, the smug arrogant dude who looked through a bunch of different timelines, didn't go "Just let him have the glove, his plan won't work and he'll just end up killing himself. Saves us the trouble..." There's PIS, and then there's this...

6. Anybody remember Bubsy? (Possibly Universe level. It is stated that the Virgil Reality Helmet could destroy the world and sentence the universe to annihilatio) Anybody remember Bubsy destroying the universe in that Pilot? No?

 

[Yobo_Blue]

I could see 5-A, 3-A with the Gauntlet's Full Power being a thing

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Yeah Redacted Flinn is making far more sense.

 

[Dzhindzholia]

This is less controversal than ppl make it.

Thanos can't be 3-A simply because he has no feats even remotely close to that level,only unreliable statement fans are trying to utilize.The gauntlet and Thanos's hands were damaged just by wiping half of the living,Destroying the Universe is infinitly more impressive.

Don't forget that Thor's Axe will also get upgraded to 3-A from this,and you won't get away with this just by saying "Its a cryptonite".Russo's statement doesn't matter if that "Kryptonite for the Gauntlet" wasn't mentioned and confirmed in the story itself,which wasn't.

 

[AKM sama]

"The glove doesn't damage itself when it is used"


Just using it twice did this to the glove and Thanos's arm where it was basically welded with Thanos's hand. But clearly no damage at all.
"The cold, calculated, highly intelligent conquerer of worlds"

Who never used the IG for doing what he claims, never tried it, has no proof of it working. Just a theory in which he assumes that he and the IG can withstand such a level of power output and live to create a new universe, despite almost half of his body rotting just by using a fraction of power he claims he can survive.

"Just let him have the glove, his plan won't work"

Yeah because any sane man would take chances with a guy who killed half the population. Even if it wouldn't work as per Thanos's plan, it would still be sufficient to cause immense damage.

 

[Redacted_Flinn]

Dzhindzholia

1. This is a debate on a fan site, it was never controversial. Anyways... Either you chose to ignore the last few paragraphs of things I and other people have said, or you are just being disingenuous... Either way, your point is basically "Thanos has no feats/credibility because he didn't blow up a universe on screen." This is the sixth time I've seen the exact same point, with the exact same lack of logic, and the exact same refutability.

2. And you won't get away with this just by saying "Its kryptonite".Russo's statement doesn't matter if that "Kryptonite for the Gauntlet" wasn't mentioned and confirmed in the story itself, which it wasn't. So the fact that the same guy who created the gauntlet also created Thor's hammer, has a major grudge against Thanos, and said the hammer was designed specifically to counter the gauntlet, not a fact? Is the hammer able to absorb blasts from the gauntlet, which even Plank, whose main power is absorbing energy was unable to do not a fact? AND Russo's & Co's statements after the fact that the hammer was made to counter the gauntlet's powers, not a fact? Being obnoxious about something that is canon in the movies doesn't prove anything, and the kryptonite analogy still holds up... Or else why didn't it cleave through Thanos with total ease when Fat Thor was fighting Thanos? Even if Thor took a nosedive in power, the ax/hammer shouldn't have. At best Stormbreaker would get upgraded to High 5-A, since I'm pretty sure Thanos's universe busting attack would probably destroy Stormbreaker.

 

[Redacted_Flinn]

AKM sama

1. Alright, i'll conscede that point, you're right. But I figured I should probably say... Thanos made the gems explode mere moments after that image was taken. So I doubt any and all of Thanos's wishes would result in that level of damage. Plus the Iron Man version of the gauntlet was undamaged from two wishes. So that weakness seems to vary depending on which glove Thanos is using...

2. Again, Thanos says multiple times throughout the movies that he studied the glove and its powers. He knows where all of the infinity gems are, he never needed to practice using the gloves abilities (and you can't say the glove gives you knowledge on how to use it, that makes no sense.), he knew about all of the gloves powers and properties, and again... Thanos is incredibly intelligent, crazy or not. He wasn't in a mindless rage when he tried to do his plan, he was calm. c collected, put thought into it, and was mostly of "sound mind" when he was explaining his plan to the Avengers. It wasn't just a "RAHH, I will blow up the universe, RAH!" type of thing. If it was, I would understand the incredible attempts to negate Thanos's credibility...

3. If I knew that the guy who I wanted to kill was basically gonna commit suicide, and leave me with the device that allows me to fix all of his damage, why not? Kinda similar to an ISIS Terrorist blowing himself up, but leaving a rewind device that could fix the building he blew up. Seriously, if the glove isn't universe level, then most of the final act of Endgame is just a waste of time, and filled with massive Plot Induced Stupidity.

 

[InfiniteSped]

Even if it wouldn't really destroy the entire universe, a snap like that should still kill all life anyway, so letting him just do it would make no sense

 

[Redacted_Flinn]

Would it? How do we know the glove wouldn't just explode in Thanos's face? Or just rot him into a pile of goo? I'm just being objective here. I'm not saying the Avengers should have let Thanos win. But the PIS thing I mentioned still holds up, Strange would know if Thanos was bluffing/wrong... There's no way to get past that.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with AKM, but have to unsubscribe due to time constraints. You can send me a message if you need my help later.

 

[AKM sama]

Where is it ever mentioned or implied that the stones would not perform their usual stuff when used at full power? Obviously they will work when used at their full power. They would at least destroy the planet and everyone on it, so you really think any sane man would take a chance?

Yes, Thanos is intelligent and studied the stones. He still claims he will survive the power output used to destroy the universe and recreate it when very clearly half of his body and the IG was ruined irreversibly just by using a negligible fraction of that power. So he's already making huge ass assumptions without even a SINGLE thing supporting them. In fact, the facts are against him.

If his statement is to be taken as truth then it leaves only one logical option. He has to do it without killing himself or harming the IG, which would mean he has to do it little by little, one snap at a time.

 

[Dzhindzholia]

Not only did Thanos state he would destroy the Universe,he also claimed to create a new one.

Which sounds a little outlierish.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Bump?