Who Dreamed First? The Presence or Mankind?

[Antvasima]

The point is that we shouldn't make up our own characters based on interpretations, only feature ones that have actually been explicitly established.

The Writer is exactly the kind of profile that we should do our best to avoid, as we are officially telling our several hundred thousand visitors every month that we think that we know better than DC Comics themselves what they want to establish. It gives an arrogant and presumptous impression, and we are too prominent now to have the luxury of engaging in that sort of thing.

Again, I would really appreciate if the two of you would make an effort to be reasonable and allow us to get rid of that horrible page.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I would appreciate if you stopped being so hyperbolic and hateful of it, it is nowhere nearly as inconsistent and headcanon as you say.

 

[Sera_EX]

To be fair (and this is a conversation for another time), but we do that for so many other verses anyway. It's actually something I'll make a thread on later this month.

 

[Antvasima]

@Matthew

Oh yes it definitely is. It is very unreliable. It is based on speculation, uses the name used in a Suicide Squad story in which he was almost just a regular character, breaks our Reality - Fiction Interaction rules, and forces our own narrative on the world at large, even though only a rather farfetched interpretation supports it, certainly not DC Comics itself.

 

[Sera_EX]

Tfw Marvel has a clear-cut supreme being but DC has a myriad of interpretations of its supreme being, we just can't determine what that being actually is....

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Ant

The name comes up in Animal Man as well.

 

[Antvasima]

@Sera

That is part of my point. We should chronicle fiction as best and reliably as we can, not impose our own entirely self-created narrative upon the world.

We obviously cannot avoid personal subjective intepretations, but in this case we are almost making up a supreme being for a very prominent franchise from scratch, even though it has never been referred to as such.

I think that we should stick with the Overvoid as DC's established supreme being, and let our visitors draw their own conclusions beyond that point.

@Matthew

Okay. Noted.

 

[Nether_nine]

Didn't Morrison claim that the Monitors themselves were the embodiments of DC Writers? If the Writer is Tier 0, then the Monitors should be Tier 0. Clearly this is not the case.

It IS based on head-canon. And an inconsistent one time appearance. Even then, Morrison's self insert is not even regarded as a Supreme Being to OTHER DC writers. Except by us fans based on wobbly interpretations.

 

[Antvasima]

Agreed.

 

[Nether_nine]

Are people not aware that Dream of the Endless is literally Neil Gaiman's subliminal self insert? What? Is Dream Tier 0 too? I guess Lucifer is Tier -1 for scaling to a Writer Dream of the Endless. Since he is a self insert of Neil. Make the Presence Tier-Infinity for scaling to the Writer.

So that's okay right? Just being an analog parody of a DC writer unrecognized by other writers as Supreme makes you Tier 0.

Great, DC gets an upgrade and is stronk over Umineko.

 

[Antvasima]

Also agreed.

 

[Hykuu]

Morrison's defintion of a writer was referring them being archetypal beings who view all of dc as a fiction, not literally the writers of everything.

subliminal self insert =/= "actual" writer beyond the overvoid

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Morrison's defintion of a writer was referring them being archetypal beings who view all of dc as a fiction, not literally the writers of everything.
subliminal self insert =/= "actual" writer beyond the overvoid

Can't believe I'm doing this but I agree with Hykuu

 

[Nether_nine]

@Hykuu @Matt Your reasoning is in fact, unquantifiable and based on head canon than anything else. Of unbacked proportions of lacked sources for anything you literally just said.

The Monitors are Morrison's actually consistent stand-ins for DC's writers considering their names are based on writer gods. There is no statement that the Morrison Self-Insert is "Beyond" the Overvoid, nor do any other DC writer believes that.

There is nothing that the Grant Morrison has, that Dream of the Endless doesn't have, as an author insert. At least Dream ACTUALLY looks like Neil Gaiman. Unlike Baldy Morrison and his insert. And has FEATS. Good ones.

Should we literally stand by your logic. Then a Toribot profile should be made.

 

[Hykuu]

"Can't believe I'm doing this but I agree with Hykuu"

never knew we had something between us lol

"

The Monitors are Morrison's actually consistent stand-ins for DC's writers considering their names are based on writer gods. There is no statement that the Morrison Self-Insert is "Beyond" the Overvoid, nor do any other DC writer believes that."

writer gods which are viewed as fiction from the perspective of the overvoid, are different than grant's interpertation of the writer drawing on the overvoid against it's will viewing it as just a canvas.

"There is nothing that the Grant Morrison has, that Dream of the Endless doesn't have, as an author insert. At least Dream ACTUALLY looks like Neil Gaiman. Unlike Baldy Morrison and his insert."

expect a complelely different view on DC and metafiction? literally.

also I don't need to show scans when I either already posted them in a earlier comment or we are going off the same proof, just how we interpret it.

 

[Sera_EX]

Please don't get into grossly over exaggerated "reality-fiction interaction = worst possible cosmology. Lol not omnipotent" arguments. They were supposed to have been put to rest as it's a massive double standard. Only when the "author" is a supreme being does it become a problem, but again, Umineko, Homestuck, Undertale, and many many RPGs also have "reality-fiction interactions".

I'm not supporting the Writer btw, I'm just tired of "that" being brought up as part of an argument against it. I have a friend that's making a webcomic with a vast cosmology that has an author instead as the Tier 0 supreme being but so long as they surpass the hierarchy required for 0, then it should count. I am sure Matt is not suggesting that simply because the Writer is "the author" that it is automatically Tier 0. Toribot is irrelevant in comparison because DB's cosmology is vastly smaller than DC's, so is the Lord of Nightmares beating her author with a shovel as that was just a gimmick, or Bugs Bunny's plot manipulation, which is a common power. Only novice debaters believe that's "omnipotent". They are novices that don't know any better. No different than people who think Dragonball is 1-A because of the World of Void or think All Might is MFTL+ in speed.

 

[Nether_nine]

Show me a SINGLE interview DIRECTLY and LITERALLY confirming that the Grant Morrison WRITER Avatar is "beyond" the Overvoid. Show me evidence from multiple different DC writers CONSENTING to this so called "Supreme Writer".

Otherwise, it's no better than Dream.

I asked you for evidence that the Writer Avatar is something more than something like Dream, you give me argmuents. Should rename this Wiki to Arguments Wiki.

Because although you guys do believe in DC Writer for Tier 0, YOU LITERALLY reject the idea of a profile for a Tier 0 Toribot. For some reason.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Chill up, Nether. Also the fact that you're bringing up the Toribot, which is tied with Drago Ball which is a Tier 2 franchise at best, is quite bad.

 

[Hykuu]

"

Show me a SINGLE interview DIRECTLY and LITERALLY confirming that the Grant Morrison WRITER Avatar is "beyond" the Overvoid. Show me evidence from multiple different DC writers CONSENTING to this so called "Supreme Writer"."

Concessio Accepred Ty.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree that Toribot wouldn't be tier 0, but my previous arguments regarding why us enforcing a fan interpretation upon the world as DC Comics' supreme being, despite no statements from the company or their stories remotely implying this, is an extremely bad idea, still stand.

Given how often I have been extremely flexible, reasonable, and given Matthew support, I would appreciate if he would listen to me when it is actually important, and avoid obstructing out of sheer stubbornness. This is one unusual case when I consider a profile a genuine spot of shame for the entire wiki, and our standards in general.

 

[Wokistan]

Dream sorta has people objectively stronger than him.

Anyways I'm not really sure where I sit on this iddue as of now. Is it possible to give presence a tier 0 key with regards to non vertigo?

 

[Antvasima]

@Wokistan

I am uncertain. Even archangels such as the 1-A unbound Spectre are supposed to simply be manifestations of his thoughts, but Matthew considers it a bad idea.

I am far more concerned with that we are marketing an almost fan character as DC Comics' supreme being, even though they have never referred to it as such.

 

[Nether_nine]

@Hykuu

Where does it say "The Grant Morrison Avatar is beyond the Overvoid"???? Still no evidence.

And FUNNY ENOUGH, your first scan LITERALLY STATED, that the Overvoid is God. NOT the Writer. Which in fact, DISPROVES your precious theory. If the Writer was DC's Supreme, Morrison would have stated that the Writer WAS God. Not the Overvoid or the Source.

Furthermore, that page makes the Source and the Overvoid as the same. This is not true because the Overvoid and the Source have different backgrounds. Literally putting away the credibility of taking statements from Morrison seriously.

And sure, whatever, Toribot wouldn't be Tier 0, but this WIKI didn't want to make a profile for him for being DB's Supreme for reasons that should be applied against the Writer. That is what I am talking about.

The fact that Snyder places Perpetua as the mother of the Multiverse and NOT this so called Writer despite collabing and inheriting Morrison's Cosmology already proves this was never true.

 

[Nether_nine]

@Wokistan

"Dream sorta has people objectively stronger than him."

Yeah, and the Writer also. Why? It has no feats, beyond that vague 1 time appearance and self-wank, even Morrison said that the Overvoid is God to him, not the Writer which in fact debunks your theory that Morrison thinks the Writer is Supreme.

Again, at least Dream actually looks like Neil.

And Morrison confirmed that his writer analogs for DC are in fact, the Monitors. Which makes sense when you consider that they embody the greed of DC Executives when the Monitors thirst for bleed.

Literally the names of like Dax Novu is based on a Middle Eastern God of Writing.

It makes no sense why Morrison puts two different tiers of WRITER analogs for DC, for the Monitors then his Self-Insert. which is redundant if we use your interpretations.

Team Writer is just writing arguments and ridiculous slithering sleazy interpretations.... as arguments. These guys like a profile for the Writer, but not for Toribot. Which already wobbles their entire standard.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Chill bro, you sound kind of mad here and there is no need for that.

 

[Nether_nine]

Um... I'm not mad, I'm actually having fun with this discussion. My caps only make it look like that. Sorry for that.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

snip

I agree with this.

 

[Antvasima]

Nether, I agree with your points, but skip the caps and the bold text. They make you read like you are screaming.

Anyway, I still really want to delete The Writer. It is extremely inappropriate to keep for reasons detailed by myself and Nether.

 

[Nether_nine]

I'm screaming with joy making these arguments.

But yes, have the Writer deleted. Baby steps to the baby steps to the way, we make the Presence Tier 0.

 

[KLOL506]

The Writer was already a sketchy profile to begin with.

DELETE AWAY

 

[Antvasima]

It is best if I wait for a confirmation from the other staff members first.

I hope that they will be reasonable and not obstruct this though.

 

[Hykuu]

""Where does it say "The Grant Morrison Avatar is beyond the Overvoid"???? Still no evidence."

maybe because he wrote on the overvoid and views it as a sheet of paper idk

"

And FUNNY ENOUGH, your first scan LITERALLY STATED, that the Overvoid is God. NOT the Writer. Which in fact, DISPROVES your precious theory. If the Writer was DC's Supreme, Morrison would have stated that the Writer WAS God. Not the Overvoid or the Source."

yes, God from the perspective of DC characters, doesn't mean anything.

"Furthermore, that page makes the Source and the Overvoid as the same. This is not true because the Overvoid and the Source have different backgrounds. Literally putting away the credibility of taking statements from Morrison seriously."

they are aspects of the same being which is how I define them as being the same, that's it, background is irrelevant in my argument.

"And sure, whatever, Toribot wouldn't be Tier 0, but this WIKI didn't want to make a profile for him for being DB's Supreme for reasons that should be applied against the Writer.That is what I am talking about."

yes bcus the writer is directly above a high 1-A

"The fact that Snyder places Perpetua as the mother of the Multiverse and NOT this so called Writer despite collabing and inheriting Morrison's Cosmology already proves this was never true."

- Perptua got clobbered by the source wall of all things


- objectively prove snyder's interpreation of the map correlates to a animal man comic, or that he fully understands the concepts grant was trying to use.

- The Writer > The Void, not just the multiverse, irrelevant.

don't respond with paragraphs to single sentences ty

 

[Antvasima]

The Writer is still not in any way an official character, as we have detailed earlier. An offhanded interview comment about the Overvoid being drawn on is not enough for forcing a mostly headcanon supreme being upon the DC Comics continuity.

If you wish to consider it as such on a personal level, that is your right, but we cannot make an official statement about such an important issue when DC Comics itself has definitely not.

 

[Hykuu]

"The Writer is still not in any way an official character, as we have detailed earlier. An offhanded interview comment about the Overvoid being drawn on is not enough for forcing a mostly headcanon supreme being upon the DC Comics continuity."

>grant literally appeared "in person" in animal man

> Appearence in War of Gods storyline

tell me how we are only basing it off a single interview comment? the WoG is supporting evidence, that's it.

"If you wish to consider it as such on a personal level, that is your right, but we cannot make an official statement about such an important issue when DC Comics itself has definitely not."

the issue here is?

 

[Antvasima]

The Suicide Squad appearance was done to debunk The Writer as anything more than a regular character, and the original appearance was not remotely an official endorsement of the character as a supreme being from DC Comics, it was just a throwaway plot point in which Grant Morrison essentially had a written conversation with himself. It is not remotely enough for us to tell millions of people that this is DC's official supreme being.

The page serves as an unreliable embarrassment for our community that rightly breeds hostility towards us.

 

[Hykuu]

I obviously can't do anything to change what y'all think so go ahead, idc.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for being reasonable.

 

[Sera_EX]

The thing is just because the Overvoid was "drawn on" and was likened to a blank canvas doesn't meant that the supreme being is a literal writer.

The wole "Overvoid was drawn on without it knowing" was Grant Morrison making an anology. If the Overvoid is a piece of paper, then the multiverse was "drawn" on it. It discovers it, etc.

Grant Morrison in Animal Man and any other writer never made an appearance where they outright stated or even heavily implied that they drew on the Overvoid. That's where the assumptions comes in.

>Grant Morrison is an author avatar > Says he created Animal Man > is called the Writer > The Writer drew on the Overvoid

That's the assumption being made but there is little evidence to support it. This is no different than that offhanded appearance of the "Divine Presence" in I/O that was automatically assumed to be Tier 0 and everyone mocked it for such a loose-minded interpretation.

Even if this was true that the DC writers wrote on the Overvoid, it does not at all mean that The Writer is DC's supreme being. Grant Morrison said the Overvoid and the Source were God or at least forms of God. Not the Writer. If anything the Overvoid is the supreme being and it's only limitation is the result of fourth wall interaction. Not a single DC Comics writer ever confirmed the status of The Writer as a supreme being, they literally treat it as the staff at DC making the comics, and I read over the animal man comic multiple times, that just strikes me as typical fourth wall interactions with Grant's avatar literally saying no fictional character can ever reach the Real World and harm him. Sounds like meta-commentary. This isn't like Marvel with the TOAA where it once appeared as Jack Kirby in it's first appearance (during a Fantastic Four story) and was later consistently shown to be a fictional character, not an actual author avatar, confirming that the idea of TOAA being the writers at Marvel was, at least pre-retcon wise, a metaphor and analogy, not concrete fact.

So unless someone can provide definitive proof that The Writer is the supreme being with more than just those few little offhanded appearances of writer avatars that seem mostly unrelated, and the Morrison interview which I believe is unrelated to the Writer entirely, can we please just use our best proper judgment and determine the best solution for DC's supreme being? Be it the Overvoid, the Source, or the Presence, I don't care, it just doesn't seem to be The Writer. I used to firmly believe the Writer was canon but going back over the comics and interviews have made me reconsider, that's all.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you very much for the support Sera.

 

[Sera_EX]

Now obviously I tend to trust Matt's judgment because he knows his stuff. Hykuu similarly knows DC very well. I just find the arguments supporting the Writer to be a bit weak in comparison to those against it. If that makes sense. And the stronger argument always wins.