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Who Dreamed First? The Presence or Mankind?

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Okay. Thank you.

Can somebody ask all of the remaining members on the list I posted earlier to contribute here?
 
I'll just chip in with my ten cents.

1-A Presence and High 1-B Monitors are not co-existent. Something needs to give, either Presence goes to 0, or Monitors get knocked down

Also, I agree with Sera's theory that the True Presence and the Writer are one and the same. The interpretation of the two characters is extremely similar, and the idea that the Presence dreamed reality makes sense with the way a writer (or in this case, a Writer) goes about constructing a fictional verse
 
Here are the ones that still need to be informed:

Matthew Schroeder, Sandman31, Ryukama, Reppuzan, Shivansh Garg, Zensum, TheC2, Eficiente, The Archdemon, Kepekley23, Ultima Reality.
 
A scan from a Morrison interview:

[1]
 
Can you form a context out of all of them Sera?
 
As a reader of the Sandman and someone knowledgeable on his comics, I have to question if this changes the ratings of any other characters within the Vertigo continuity assuming the proposed changes go through.

There is the issue where Dream states that people themselves redesigned Creation to fit their dream of reality. Even if they only changed a mere aspect of the true Presence, wouldn't that also mean at least some sort of upgrade for Dream assuming the changes go through?
 
I believe Hykuu's assessment about DC's supreme being appearing differently to different kinds of characters is the most plausible conclusion. Whether or not all of these aspects are aspects of The True Presence or of The Writer is not clear.

I'll be using the term "omnipotent" for convenience, so bear with me.

The Presence has always been the one described as omnipotent, while Grant Morrison is said to just have reality-altering plot manipulation and is weak to other writers. I haven't read any of the stories regarding the other writers, but if the individual writers are all considered mere demiurges than we have to consider this:

There seems to be many forms of the supreme being.

The Source, Overvoid, and the Presence were stated by Grant Morrison to be the same entity. As Hykuu stated, they may just be separate interpretations of the same entity. The Writers seem to be avatars of their real world counterparts inserted into the comics. Again, I don't want to get into reality-fiction interaction because there's double standards all over the site regarding them, like Andrew Hussie. What I will argue is the possibility that the Writer could be an avatar with demiurge power. Avatar of what? Whoever they are in real life.

However God/The Presence has been described as a writer and even a dreamer. The only conclusion I can come up with is either:

A. The Presence and Writer are the same thing or have a similar composition to the TOAA, who has once been depicted as authors. So we may just need to treat The Presence the same as we do TOAA.

B. DC doesn't even know what their supreme being is and it's become too meta-fictional for our standards.

Of course, I'm leaning towards A. But frustrations are making me consider B.
 
Basically, like TOAA, there will be meta-commentaries where God appears as a writer from the company, but again like TOAA, it is a composite being with numerous forms. This is my take until I see a scan where The Writer shows itself and describes itself as superior to the Presence.
 
I'll go with Sera on this one. I trust her judgment more than anyone else's when stuff like this needs to get sorted out.
 
My feelings KLOL...

Seriously though, I agree with Option A. I believe that until we can conclusively say that DC is just running in circles with their tails in their mouths, I reckon we should try to keep this nightmare pieced together
 
I am fine wih Sera's conclusion. However, we should use and link to all of the useful relevant scans that I linked to earlier.
 
Also, we still need input from Matthew and Ultima Reality, as they are the ones who blocked my previous attempts for these revisions.
 
I might be unavailable for a while as local tensions are increasing considerably in my neighborhood, but do keep me notified of what happens here if possible. Thanks in advance.
 
Okay. I am sorry to hear that. I hope that things work out for you.
 
Maybe the True Presence is DC itself - a place where dreams are forged into reality.

And The Writer(s) are the aspects of that dream writing all types of stories that come from their source for storytelling, The True Presence or DC.
 
Well, let's preferably not get into speculation for official profiles again. That is what got us into this mess to start with.

It is probably easiest if we use DeMatteis' cosmology of even 1-A entities being mere figments of The Presence's imagination.
 
Warren Valion said:
Maybe the True Presence is DC itself - a place where dreams are forged into reality.

And The Writer(s) are the aspects of that dream writing all types of stories that come from their source for storytelling, The True Presence or DC.
Click to expand...
That would mean The Presence = Overvoid. Which has already been confirmed at least by Morrison.
 
Antvasima said:
Well, let's preferably not get into speculation for official profiles again. That is what got us into this mess to start with.
It is probably easiest if we use DeMatteis' cosmology of even 1-A entities being mere figments of The Presence's imagination.
Click to expand...
Don't mind me. I was mainly just typing my random thoughts on the matter.

Trying to connect the seemingly contrary notions for the divine beings in DC into one homogenous mixture with some sort of metaphoric spin.

Nothing I'd actually take seriously without some tangible proof.
 
@Warren

Okay. No problem.

@All

Is somebody willing to assemble all of the relevant images from the threads that I linked to into a single post here? It would help with our overview.
 
Not exactly. Since they do seem to still be separate "characters". Just aspects of the same whole. I'm not 100% sure of what to do honestly but with other stuff going on it may be best to put this on hold.
 
I think that we can continue now, as the big tiering system revision seems to have been postponed.
 
Another wikia, known as character realms wikia which I used to work on, had a God profile which essentially merged every iteration of God into a single profile, I really liked the idea, maybe we should do the same and credit the wikia? (Albeit the wikia is dead)

But yes, conclusion A is definitely more plausible, I made another post on some other thread explaining it with scans and stuff.
 
Feel free to repost the scans here.
 
Antvasima said:
I strongly agree with Sera. I have tried to gather staff attention for Marvel and DC revisions for a long time, but the franchises are very dense to get into, and have suffered in writing quality in recent years, so most people here do not seem very interested. Heck, I am angry myself about that they have been distorted so much from what I used to love.
Click to expand...
I dunno about others, but in my case, it's less that I have no interest and more that I haven't picked up a DC comic in what's edging towards six years now. I'd be perfectly willing to help if it weren't for the fact that I have no idea what to contribute anymore besides the tenuous amounts of knowledge I've managed to retain from the years I was still reading.

It also doesn't help that we've now reached DC's third major continuity revision and I haven't the slightest clue what's canon at this point.
 
Yeah, that's the big reason why I haven't been helping as much as I would like. DC Continuity is really confusing, and it doesn't help that I decided to pick a character whose infamous infamous for being confusing as all get out.

If there's a specific series anyone wants me to read for scans/feats, then sure.
 
Well, I linked to threads with relevant scans in them about The Presence, so you could just check that out if you wish.
 
I am fine with whoever helping with DC and whatnot, but let me make one clear thing:

Tier 0 Presence. Presence being the writers. Presence being the Overvoid... All of those couldn't be further from the truth. People need to understand that "Presence having always existed" and "Presence being created by the human subconscious" aren't mutually exclusive. See Warhammer 40,000 for a similar example there with the Chaos Gods.

Likewise, the Presence has regularly displayed far too many limitation to be Tier 0. Such as not being fully Omniscient, having equals in power, admitting he's not Omnipotent and that he was created by another, being defeated and threatened a feel times, and even temporarily killed.

Furthermore, never has the Presence been directly associated with the writers behind the curtains making the comics. That is pure headcanon. And as far as factual evidence matters, the Overvoid is greater than the Presence by both statements in comics and also by what the Overvoid even factually is to begin with.

So no, no Tier 0 Presence and certainly no merging of profiles.

What I think Morrison actually meant is that the Presence, the Overvoid, and the Source are all different ways of interpreting God, differents forms of it, different primordial forces that serve different purposes.

The Overvoid is the unmanifested nothingness before everything. It is 0, pure potential, a blank canvas from which anything can spring. The Presence is the Monotheistic God, the Creator Being who set the first motion, but even he sprung from the 0 of the Overvoid. Meanwhile the Source is an impersonal force which pervades all of creation and beyond, binding everything together and serving as well... The Source of all things. A very eastern understanding of God compared to the western Monotheistic Presence.
 
The problem is that DeMatteis' version and Mike Carey's/Holly Black's versions are very contradictory.

DeMatteis' version of The Presence is tier 0 (with all 1-A entities just being figments of its imagination), and Carey's just tier 1-A, but we base the infinite-dimensional multiverse on DeMatteis cosmology and still apply it to that of Grant Morrison, who seems to subscribe to 11-dimensional superstring theory instead.

In addition, Grant himself apparently considers The Presence, The Overvoid, and The Source to be the same entity.

For consistency, I think that it seems best to either use DeMatteis' cosmology as a basis for The Presence, or to use two different statistics keys, one for Vertigo and one for regular DC Comics.
 
Antvasima said:
The problem is that DeMatteis' version and Mike Carey's/Holly Black's versions are very contradictory.
DeMatteis' version is tier 0 (with all 1-A beings just being figments of its imagination), and Carey's just tier 1-A, but we base the infinite-dimensional multiverse on DeMatteis cosmology and still apply it to that of Grant Morrison, who seems to subscribe to 11-dimensional superstring theory instead.
Click to expand...
Not really. DeMatteis simply likes diving into the philosophical concepts of God more than Mike Carey, but they are ultimately the same character. Looking at the Cthulhu Mythos Ultimate Gods, for instance, the notion that simply having 1-A beings as pieces of your imagination isn't necessarily Tier 0, specially if there are things in the verse which surpasses you.

In addition, Grant himself apparently considers The Presence, The Overvoid, and The Source to be the same entity.

He actually doesn't. The quote from the interview is misunderstood. All Morrison said was that the traditional view of a supreme being in DC is either the Monotheistic God or Kirby's Source, and that with the Monitor-Mind in Final Crisis he went in a completely different direction.

Nevertheless, the idea of a primordial white void before creation is very consistent among comics even outside of Final Crisis / Morrison's Meta Stuff.

For consistency, I think that it seems best to either use DeMatteis' cosmology as a basis for The Presence, or to use two different statistics keys, one for Vertigo and one for regular DC Comics.

I don't think it's that contradictory.
 
@Matt

I never once said any of my ideas were canon, so of course they are speculations or...as you called them... "headcanon". But that's what happens when people are left to determine shit on their own with no one "knowledgeable enough" about the source material to straighten out the multitude of interpretations flying around.
 
"In addition, Grant himself apparently considers The Presence, The Overvoid, and The Source to be the same entity."

I believe the tweet where Morrison said this is fake.
 
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