Who Dreamed First? The Presence or Mankind?

[Nether_nine]

I'm sorry, but I just cannot take this seriously. This Wiki's attitude of the Presence is like "Oh, Presence was created by Dreams because of that outlier EXTREMELY inconsistent Atheistic Vertigo interpretation of a DC God that has been portrayed as Tier 0 at one point"

Can this profile of the Presence at the very least put a disclaimer note that JM De Matteis thinks that it is the Presence who dreamed 1-A Spectre and all of Creation which is the OPPOSITE of the Atheistic Matteis/Carey narrative? That, his power and origin depends on interpretation? Despite it?

Like "The Presence's origins vary on interpretation, and in Matteis's stories, it is rather that he dreamed Creation into existence contradicting the Sandman interpretation".

That's not a big deal right? On other forums, people keep on bringing up that ridiculously inconsistent outlier origin of the Presence from the Pseudo-Canonical Sandman to judge how powerful the Presence is.

It would help to add this at least. An image, this one, below.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/WPO_kl_fr...IPnp9iW0sHIRnRuvAyNc074uhHisZnOoWbgML1g=s1600

If not making him Tier 0, at the very least say that in DC (not Vertigo), he is the one dreaming Creation, not the other way around.

It might SURPRISE a lot of people who read into DC that the Presence has appeared in a lot of works outside of Sandman.

 

[Ogbunabali]

There may or may not be a decision made soon to delete the Writer and make the Presence have two keys, Tier 1-A for Vertigo and Tier 0 for current DC canon.

 

[Nether_nine]

It's not just about the whole Tier 0 thing. I don't care if the Presence becomes Tier 0 or not if it's really impossible here.

We have to put that Presence's origins changed many times. That one is loooooooooooooong overdue. We're tired of having to explain Matteis's interpretation of Presence's origins over and over. When someone says "Haiii guyyssss Presence is created by dreams hurr durr he just a waaan-eiiii fodder"

Then I'm like "Oh no, the Presence is the one who dreamed Creation into existence, not the other way around."

Then I have to show the Matteis side of the Presence and repeat, repeat, repeat. Because somehow the Pseudo-Canonical Sandman holds far more infinitely authority on the Presence than any other writer apparently according to people from all forums whether it be here, the Vine or whatever.

And Matteis is the only one on Main DCU who actually thinks DC is High-1B. If you reject Morrison stating that DC is based on M-Theory to make DC High-1B profiles from Matteis, we have to take Matteis side more seriously. We cannot cherry pick what is good from one writer source.

Oh, and Paul Jenkins DOES NOT count, he doesn't think DC is High-1B because he literally stated that Innumberable Dimensions =/= Infinite Dimensions. So our profile's only legit justification for DC (without Vertigo) being High-1B is just Matteis.

Either we use nothing from Matteis's interpretations for DC, his cosmology and not, or none of it at all. This Wiki has to decide, not having a two headed snake going about if we take Matteis seriously here, then not the next when it comes to High-1B.

We have to tell. the whole STORY about this.

 

[Antvasima]

I am personally inclined to agree with Nether about this, but somebody should ask the following members to give input here:

Matthew Schroeder, Sandman31, Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot, Ryukama, Reppuzan, Shivansh Garg, KLOL506, Zensum, TheC2, Crimson Azoth, Eficiente, Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan, The Archdemon, Sera EX, Kepekley23, Ultima Reality.

 

[AndrewBennet]

Actually Demattis wrote more comics about the presence then any other writer which includes GM .

 

[Nether_nine]

Actually Demattis wrote more comics about the presence then any other writer which includes GM .

Really? Besides his Spectre run? Might I know these issues and stories? A list of them?

 

[Antvasima]

I would appreciate if somebody could ask all of the members that I mentioned earlier to comment here. You can tell them that I sent you if you wish.

 

[SinsofMan]

I notified Zensum, Sandman31 and Spino. I told Repp also in PM on Skype and Ill ask Matthew on Discord. As for me, minus the...messy language I admit he has a point.

Dream seems also to be different from the endless, but my experience is Sandman is minimal. Edit: I think I am in support? Not sure since I need to read sandman and vertigo again.

 

[KLOL506]

I'm with Nether on this one.

 

[Antvasima]

This is an important topic, so we preferably need input from as many of the people I mentioned as possible. As such, I would appreciate if you ask all of them to respond here.

 

[Nether_nine]

The only way we knew that Matteis referred to High-1B dimensions is his Twitter, same place where he stated that the Presence contains the Void inside him as well making Matteis's interpretation of the Presence more powerful than Morrison's Overvoid in comparison. An additional reminder.

 

[Nether_nine]

If Tier 0 Presence is rejected, I want to request that all Matteis High-1B scans used in the profiles of this wiki removed. Say bye bye to High-1B Monitors. Least it will be more accurate to Grant "Super String Theory 10-D" Morrison's Cosmology.


Oh, and once that's done. DO NOT bring up the "Metaverse" scan as High-1B to cover up for Matteis loss. If that was High-1B, you would have to upgrade all the 5-D Imps to being High-1B by that logic because the IMPS transcended the Timeline Multiverse of DC and Metaverse did not refer to Higher Layered Dimensions, but was an interpretation of an application of Megaversal Dimensions to the DC PHYSICAL Timeline Multiverse which is BELOW the Fifth Dimension (the more ACCURATE definition of dimension in MWI Quantum Mechanics which pertained to different groups and clusters of timelines based on starting condition and not layered existence which is often times confused between the two types of Higher Dimensions).

 

[Antvasima]

@Nether nine

I mostly agree with your points, but you need to calm down and structure your posts in a more coherent manner if you wish to convince the others.

 

[Crimson_Azoth]

My eyes... Mate, can you structure your arguments? I'd love to discuss your ideas with you, but it kinda seems at the moment that you're rambling, no offence.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, agreed. You have good points, but they are getting lost in the bad structure of your posts. I would appreciate if you clean them up, so we can get a much needed revision.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

I mostly deal with low tier characters, but Nether seems to make sense. Not sure what he is trying to revise tho

 

[Antvasima]

I think that he want us to be more consistent in our usage of J.M. DeMatteis' version of The Presence and DC cosmology, and delete The Writer.

 

[Sera_EX]

DC Presence is Tier 0, Ant and I already talked about this on the DC revision thread. I agree with Nether and Ant's original proposal. We can't reject Tier 0 Presence yet use High 1-B Monitors. It feels wrong. The DC interpretation and Vertigo interpretations of certain topics still seem to be conflict with one another and I'm still catching up with the most recent DC events.

I am perfectly fine with waiting for others to input but unfortunately I doubt many will reply. They seem to be more busy/interested in other verses at the moment.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I am fine with whatever others decide, but I wanted to question what this means for the Overvoid.

A notable reason for it being Tier 0 seems to be that a 1-A as powerful as the Presence is fiction merely drawn on its body.

If the Writer is deleted and the Presence revised, would this not also alter the tier of the Overvoid? Or would we just say the Presence takes the place of the Writer? Just wanted to bring this up, as I thought it might be important to address so it isn't forgotten about.

 

[Hykuu]

Dreaming didn't create the Presence, lol, they only shaped his aspects with their own beliefs.

All of these are aspects of God dreamt up by people's belief

Martian Manhunter saw god as this Martian god

Hindus see him as some dude riding a serpant on a rainbow

new gods see him as the source

Monitors see him as the Overvoid

Limbo inhabitants see him as the writer

God has been consistently shown to predate dreaming and creation as a whole and literally created dream of the endless, so I'm not sure how humans supposedly created God.

BUT, I don't believe this would truly make the Presence a tier 0 being, but I am neutral on the whole omnipotent presence thing, so do as you will, I'll leen to whatever y'all agree on.

so yes, I agree with this.

 

[Antvasima]

@Azathoth

I think that somebody mentioned that a DeMatteis story interpreted the void as a part of The Presence, but I do not remember so well.

I do not know if it would have to be downgraded to 1-A, or just a lesser tier 0 than the top entity.

 

[Sera_EX]

The main problem with The Writer is that while it was a fictional representation of the writers at DC, the whole comic was more akin to a meta-commentary with no true bearing on the cosmology rather than being a story about "this is the true supreme being!"

Hykuu also makes sense. It's very common in fiction for the supreme being's aspects to simply be entities born from sentient belief and perspective. It's just a common Gnostic thing.

 

[Antvasima]

Agreed. The Writer is more of ourselves trying to fit together different Morrison stories from decades apart that had nothing to do with each other.

 

[Hykuu]

The Writer isn't limited to Grant if we are taking what was said literally here, but I guess that according to Matteis's works, it's oddly consistent throughout every incarnation of a supreme being he's written them as a literal writer.

 

[Antvasima]

What do you mean?

 

[Hykuu]

The Writer from grant's perspective isn't a singular being, which is why the writer in animal man called himself a demiurgic power, it's meant to be every single writer composed to 1 being:

Meanwhile, In all of matteis's works he called creation a play or a story and God being the writer.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, like Sera, I think that the Writer is a fan interpretation, not remotely official. In addition, it breaks our Reality - Fiction Interaction standards.

 

[Sera_EX]

I know the Writer isn't limited to Morrison. Morrison even stated his only weakness is other writers. I'm saying that that whole interpretation may not be "this is the supreme being".

I don't want to debate reality-fiction interaction because we have plenty examples of that, especially in the sense of rpgs.

It is also completely possible that the True Presence and the Writer are the same entity, just like The-One-Above-All had once appeared as Jack Kirby. This would fit with the Presence dreaming reality.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Sera makes a really good point.

 

[Sera_EX]

I also find it rather sad that big verses such as these are being abandoned. I know everyone is busy and their interests change over time, but it's still unfortunate. DC really needs more staff attention but it's getting hardly anything outside of Ant, myself, Nedge, etc. It's not like I don't trust the judgment of ordinary users, no I do, it's just aggravating me to see everyone and their mother hop on a Dragon Ball or Naruto revision thread using already debunked information yet DC, Sailor Moon, Saint Seiya, and especially Marvel is suffering.

 

[KLOL506]

True.

We rarely see any proper revisions for even the DC movies now.

 

[Antvasima]

I strongly agree with Sera. I have tried to gather staff attention for Marvel and DC revisions for a long time, but the franchises are very dense to get into, and have suffered in writing quality in recent years, so most people here do not seem very interested. Heck, I am angry myself about that they have been distorted so much from what I used to love.

Feel free to ask all of the remaining people that I mentioned earlier to help out with this though. They are the ones I have noticed that seem knowledgeable enough.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

I've been on and off reading comics for lesser known heroes and have done a few calcs for Hawkman characters, if that helps. (nothing impressive yet, but Tier 7 and MHS Golden Age Hawkman so far)

I frankly just don't know where to start with helping with DC profiles, to be honest.

 

[Antvasima]

The DC profiles are probably mostly fine, except for the Presence and the Writer mess. The Marvel profiles on the other hand, are largely extremely incoherent and unreliable.

 

[Sera_EX]

@Ant

I agree, but at the same time a lot of stuff has dwindled in writing quality over time. Dragon Ball Super is, dare I say, objectively inferior to the original manga and anime in writing quality, yet because the characters are getting stronger people don't care. So I'm not seeing why these other verses have to get that "the writing is not as good!" treatment.

@Dankanine

Me too. I'm still trying to catch up to recent stuff.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I personally liked DBS a lot, because it was fun and exciting, not because the characters got stronger.

(Btw: The final arc was blatantly inspired by the setting of the Dragon Ball Multiverse fan manga, to the better I might add.)

Marvel is honestly just a massive mess nowadays, but that is derailing, and I have still tried hard to get several revisions going, but with limited results so far.

 

[Sera_EX]

This is very true. I personally liked Super myself, but that's because I don't take DB seriously to begin with. Marvel on the other hand, especially with the whole PC nonsense that's now infiltrated even their movies, is far worse in current condition. But I'll save that rant for another time.

 

[Antvasima]

That is probably best, yes.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, returning to The Presence, Monitor-Mind The Overvoid, and The Writer. Would you be willing to revise the first two if Nether and possibly other members provide relevant J.M. DeMatteis scans? I can delete the last one in combination.

However, you have to talk with Matthew about it, as he will likely undo our edits otherwise.

 

[Sera_EX]

If Nether and co. can provide some scans and so forth, I'll see where it goes.