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Who Dreamed First? The Presence or Mankind?
- Thread starter Nether_nine
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Outright statement that all of existence is nothing but words and stories and that God is the Writer / Reader who is standing outside it all.
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Alan Moore's Promethea comicbook was separate from DC Comics at the time that he wrote it, and all of this is just proof of metafiction, which I was already aware of, not of an official in-story supreme entity. It remains and will always be inappropriate for us to make up our own characters based on conjecture, especially ones that will draw as much bad attention/reputation to the wiki and its standards as this one.
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Promethea is part of DC Comics now and it matches the statements from Swamp Thing, Animal Man, Final Crisis / Multiversity, Morrison's own comics, Sandman, etc.
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@Sera
Yes, but if you can read comics and all of its 1-As like a piece of fiction, you can tear said piece of paper out. Can you not rip pieces of paper of your own comics? Even if you are just the reading audience.
Didn't Matt just showed us a picture of the Overvoid being shown as fiction on top of a table? Perhaps the Writer writes comics for the Empty Hand? They exist on the same level of existence according to this logic.
That just tells me, that Metafiction for Writer, but no Metafiction for Empty Hand. And I've seen no reason for separating some sort of standard between the two. That is selective logic. I do not like a Writer profile, for the same reason I do not like an Empty Hand profile.
Yes, but if you can read comics and all of its 1-As like a piece of fiction, you can tear said piece of paper out. Can you not rip pieces of paper of your own comics? Even if you are just the reading audience.
Didn't Matt just showed us a picture of the Overvoid being shown as fiction on top of a table? Perhaps the Writer writes comics for the Empty Hand? They exist on the same level of existence according to this logic.
That just tells me, that Metafiction for Writer, but no Metafiction for Empty Hand. And I've seen no reason for separating some sort of standard between the two. That is selective logic. I do not like a Writer profile, for the same reason I do not like an Empty Hand profile.
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@Matthew
And it all still doesn't matter. You could bring a hundred examples of pretentious metafiction to the table, and it still would not amount to an official endorsement or even appearance of an in-story supreme being character that is intended to be a sum total collective of all the DC comicbook writers. Until this appears, we cannot feature our own fan-characters, no matter how much we want them to be true.
And it all still doesn't matter. You could bring a hundred examples of pretentious metafiction to the table, and it still would not amount to an official endorsement or even appearance of an in-story supreme being character that is intended to be a sum total collective of all the DC comicbook writers. Until this appears, we cannot feature our own fan-characters, no matter how much we want them to be true.
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It's not fanfiction Ant, it's plainly said.
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Ok, stop. Common sense tells us reality and fiction cannot interact. So of course if I tore up my comics of Superman, I'm not killing Superman or destroying his reality. That's not what they are saying either. There is a difference between metaficfion (concept) and DC using metaficiton as their cosmological equivalent of metaphysics.
Why do you think the Overvoid was likened to a piece of paper? In DC Culture. Metafiction = Metaphysics.
But that doesn't matter? Okay then. If metafiction examples are irrelvant, then the Overvoid has no weakness because "being written on" is a metafiction example and both of your logics demand we ignore them. See the issue here? Matt of all people certainly wouldn't think an author is the supreme being just because it's the author and it is elementary to assume that DC's writers are literally saying they and the readers are god as in, I literally have power over all of DC.
That is not the context at all. Metafiction is just an analogy here. They literally liken metafiction to metaphysics. It is also the basis on which DC's dimensional tiering is based. That is why Mr. Mxy views 3-dimensional reality as a comic book. That's why the Monitors refer to realities as stories. It's in the context of the nature of DC's reality.
Why do you think the Overvoid was likened to a piece of paper? In DC Culture. Metafiction = Metaphysics.
But that doesn't matter? Okay then. If metafiction examples are irrelvant, then the Overvoid has no weakness because "being written on" is a metafiction example and both of your logics demand we ignore them. See the issue here? Matt of all people certainly wouldn't think an author is the supreme being just because it's the author and it is elementary to assume that DC's writers are literally saying they and the readers are god as in, I literally have power over all of DC.
That is not the context at all. Metafiction is just an analogy here. They literally liken metafiction to metaphysics. It is also the basis on which DC's dimensional tiering is based. That is why Mr. Mxy views 3-dimensional reality as a comic book. That's why the Monitors refer to realities as stories. It's in the context of the nature of DC's reality.
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I'am with Matt and Sera here.
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Look, all that I am saying is that such a character has never appeared or been presented in such a context. We can certainly speculate about that it makes sense for it to be implied to exist, but until then it violates our standards to feature a profile for it.
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There is also the fact that Imagination is the energy of the Multiverse and the Monitors are akin to writers and editors of individual realities. It is all one big cohesive whole.
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It's also not speculation, the context explains it all.
Imagination is the power of the multiverse.
Everything in DC Comics is in-universe, so we need to stop saying "in-universe supreme being". The fact that the writers are God is in-universe. It has no bearing outside it's verse, which is the very definition of "in-universe".
Imagination is the power of the multiverse.
Everything in DC Comics is in-universe, so we need to stop saying "in-universe supreme being". The fact that the writers are God is in-universe. It has no bearing outside it's verse, which is the very definition of "in-universe".
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Well, I disagree, and still strongly dislike that we use conjecture, even informed conjecture, as a basis for any profile, especially such a controversial one, but I am far too distracted, tired, and overworked to continue to argue much about this.
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It's not conjecture. It's 3rd grade reading skills. This situation requires usage of context clues.
>Metafiction is DC's metaphysics. It's the foundation of their storytelling and their cosmology.
That's a fact.
>God has been repeatedly referred to as a writer
That's a fact.
>Matteis often calls creation a play or story and god a writer.
That's a fact.
The Monitors (fictional characters) refer to reality as a story.
That's a fact.
>Beyond the Source Wall is the source of all existence, the map confirms that is the Overvoid.
That's a fact.
>The Overvoid was likened to a piece of paper.
That's a fact.
So if what lies beyond the source wall is the background of which all creations of drawn on, then the Writer is not just a meta fictional commentary as I previously thought. It is literally the God of DC as it's been stated several times. Referring to it as mere metafiction (which again is the basis for DC's cosmology and dimensionality), dismisses the verse entirely.
>Metafiction is DC's metaphysics. It's the foundation of their storytelling and their cosmology.
That's a fact.
>God has been repeatedly referred to as a writer
That's a fact.
>Matteis often calls creation a play or story and god a writer.
That's a fact.
The Monitors (fictional characters) refer to reality as a story.
That's a fact.
>Beyond the Source Wall is the source of all existence, the map confirms that is the Overvoid.
That's a fact.
>The Overvoid was likened to a piece of paper.
That's a fact.
So if what lies beyond the source wall is the background of which all creations of drawn on, then the Writer is not just a meta fictional commentary as I previously thought. It is literally the God of DC as it's been stated several times. Referring to it as mere metafiction (which again is the basis for DC's cosmology and dimensionality), dismisses the verse entirely.
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It has not been stated as a reference to the actual writers of DC Comics, but alright, I give up. I am extremely busy, and do not have the focus, time, and energy to continue to argue about this. The profile will have to continue to violate our reality-fiction interaction rules, and draw animosity and derision towards the practices of our community, in lack of better options.
You can close this if you wish.
You can close this if you wish.
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Sera is 100% correct.
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It doesn't violate reality-fiction rules. I guess Andrew Hussie is a double standard. Well, no point in continuing to argue. You should rest up a bit.
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