Who Dreamed First? The Presence or Mankind?

[AndrewBennet]

Lol

 

[Antvasima]

Nether is still factually correct, but he should try being less condescending, as it will turn people away from giving their agreement and make my job harder convincing people here.

 

[The_Omnipotente]

is Headcanon (as Presence level 0) talking about headcanon.
And of courseThe Writer is not just Grant Morisso

 

[Antvasima]

That is from a joke comic, not to be taken as any form of official statement from the company.

 

[Antvasima]

Is it fine if I remove the profile now, and update the pages that link to it?

 

[Pritti]

Ultima did counter Nether's arguments. I don't think it's a good idea to delete the Writer claiming it to be headcanon when Tier 0 Presence is equally headcanon by that logic.

 

[Sera_EX]

There's no rush. The Umineko profiles (among others) are still a disaster yet we're being patient on those. Matt, Ultima, and Hykuu are probably busy elsewhere and don't feel like having a fast-paced argumentative discussion over this, and Nether's fiery debating style is probably not helping either for reasons Mr. Redic already mentioned.

@Pritti

What do you think about the whole Writer/Presence fiasco?

 

[Antvasima]

I disagree. There is no proof of DC Comics considering The Writer to be its supreme entity.

There exists proof of even 1-A archangels such as The Spectre just being figments of The Presence's imagination, but in Vertigo the character has been presented as more limited.

However, those are separate topics.

Also, we have provided other reasons for The Writer being a very inappropriate profile, and Ultima did not provide a convincing counterargument as far as I am concerned.

 

[Pritti]

Different writers have occasionally, if not often use different cosmologies. If you accept that, then how hard is it to accept different writers also have different supreme beings? Different interpretations or identifications to be exact.

In Detective Comics, God is most consistently decsribed as simply the source of all existences. A lot of fourth wall stuff gets thrown in as well, often enough that we should consider this cosmology is at the very least consistently a reality-fiction cosmology.

The Source, the Overvoid (when likened to the Source), the Presence, and the Writer all fit the description of being the source of all existence one way or another. Think about it.

 

[Sera_EX]

I already mentioned that before and Matt shot it down claiming The Presence isn't the Writer in any way shape or form, although I think he's primarily talking about the Vertigo version.

 

[Antvasima]

My apologies if I am being blunt.

However, The Overvoid and The Presence have each officially been treated as DC's supreme being, depending on the author.

The Writer on the other hand is a speculative mishmash of trying to fit together different stories decades apart into an official statement that doesn't exist. As such, I consider it very inappropriate for us to announce to the world that we know better than the company itself does, especially given how mainstream popular this wiki has become.

 

[Pritti]

The Overvoid and The Presence have each officially been treated as DC's supreme being, depending on the author.

So has the Writer, that is my point. Refer to Hykuu's reply explaining how God in DC is viewed differently by other types of beings.

Beyond the Source Wall is literally the all-encompassing supreme being of DC, the characteristics of which varies from author to author. If different authors can use different cosmologies, than they can have different interpretations of the supreme being. To suggest otherwise is to believe one knows better than DC.

 

[Sera_EX]

Given the nature of DC Comics, that actually makes sense.

 

[Antvasima]

I mean no offence, but that is not correct. The Writer has never remotely been officially referenced as DC's supreme being, whereas the other two have.

 

[Pritti]

Really? In all of matteis's works he called creation a play or a story and God being the writer. Grant Morrison's avatar likened reality to a comic book and God to a writer. God in this context means the most high a.k.a supreme being.

 

[Sera_EX]

Hykuu mentioned that before too. Basically it's as if Matteis is literally likening The Presence to a writer which to be fair fits nicely with all of existence being composed of his thoughts and the Overvoid being contained within this collective mindset. This is interesting to say the least but I really want to see what Matt has to say about these points first as his interpretation is still different.

 

[Antvasima]

There is a major difference between considering The Presence as the in-story symbolic "author" of everything, and stating that the writers of DC Comics are officially a collective in-story supreme entity. The latter is pure conjecture.

 

[Pritti]

Okey dokey. I need to go to bed anyway, it's passed midnight and I have school in the morning.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Good night.

 

[Sera_EX]

I don't think she meant the literal writers, but the concept of God being the writer/the one creating DC which has repeatedly been referred to as fiction, is another interpretation of the supreme being.

 

[Antvasima]

By the way, it is refreshing how articulate, rational, and well-informed Japanese seem to be compared what I am used to here in Sweden.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Look at the "Parliament of Writers" in Swamp Thing where all of existence is simply a story written by cosmic writers.

Look at all the metafiction which constantly goes on, from shit like Milk Wars where the multiverse was created by a comicbook company, from Mr.Mxyzptlk (After ascending to beyond all of existence) meeting Mike Carey and asking if he is the Supreme Being? Or Dream's Library having DC Comics in them and the whole point of "What is real in one universe is a comicbook in the next universe over".

Metafiction is the blood and soul of DC.

 

[Pritti]

What I said was the idea that every writer at DC Comics is a collective supreme being (as Grant avatar stated in Animal Man) is but another interpretation of the supreme being in DC. Anyway, it's bedtime.

 

[Sera_EX]

By the way, it is refreshing how articulate, rational, and well-informed Japanese seem to be compared what I am used to here in Sweden.

I don't know about Pirtti, but I had the benefit of having traveled the world and lived in several different countries for small amounts of time (the US, Russia, and of course South Korea being my original home country). I believe that helped a lot with opening my mind.

 

[Sera_EX]

Metafiction is the blood and soul of DC

At the very least, I agree with this 100%

 

[Antvasima]

@Matthew

I agree with you that DC recurrently delves into metafiction, even though it is avoided more than for Marvel.

However, there have still not been any official or in-story statements about DC considering its supreme being to be a collective of comicbook writers, and that angle was explicitly contradicted when The Writer was killed off in a Suicide Squad comicbook. If there is a reliable such reference at some point, you can recreate the profile, but until then, we should avoid making official endorsements of what boils down to pure conjecture.

Anyway, I am very tired, and do not have the energy to argue extensively about this.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The Overvoid as seen from Outside:

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Ant

IF nothing else, Holly Black commented on God being the "creative writing spirit" on a Youtube Interview. And this was explicitely talking about the theory that God is the writer(s).

 

[Sera_EX]

Ok I gotta be honest, that takes the cake.

 

[Antvasima]

@Matthew

Where is that from?

 

[Antvasima]

Unofficial statements from Holly Black, who I do not think even writes comics for DC anymore, are not remotely enough to warrant such an important profile.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It's from this video:


Imaginary Interviews Lucifer and Holly Black (Part 1)

At some point she says that.

 

[Antvasima]

I meant the Overvoid image.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also, the Swamp Thing take on writers:

• One.
• Two.
• Three.
• Four.
• Five.
• Six.
• Seven.

And Dream's library having DC Comics in it.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I meant the Overvoid image.

Swamp Thing Comic Cover

 

[Nether_nine]

That Youtube interview means nothing. Rucka stated that the Presence being Supreme over everything else is an unspoken rule among DC writers. I've yet to hear anything similar of that from the Writer's case. Yet I am beyond even using that particularl WOG as an argument. But it is far superior to some Youtube interview.

You would believe 1 Youtube interview, over a statement from Matteis that the Presence is Supreme, and Rucka implying it is more commonplace? Then use Matteis's High-1B Cosmology confirmable by Twitter for your 4-D Monitors?

It's beyond the knowledge of DC writers that the Writer is Supreme.

 

[Antvasima]

As I keep repeating, the metafiction is not remotely proof of an actual in-story supreme entity character, which is what we require in order to create a profile, especially such an important high-tiered one. Anything else is speculation.

 

[Sera_EX]

Metafiction is DC's metaphysics.

 

[Nether_nine]

As I said Ant, if a Writer profile is allowed. And Metafiction is so the life blood of DC. An Empty Hand profile of 1-A is due, since Morrison claims the Empty Hand is the embodiment of the hand of a Comic Book reader closing a comic book page. And the Empty Hand has a better chance of being Tier 0 than the Writer, at least he didn't get killed. It makes no sense for me that we allowed 1 Tier 0 Writer but no profile for a just as Metafictional Empty Hand profile. If DC's Multiverse was so Metafictional.

DC is Metafictional. But DC's Metafictionyness was at its peak under Morrison, and under Snyder, the tone and angle of DC's Multiversal New Crisis is rarely a recurring motiff.

 

[Sera_EX]

Empty Hand is irrelevant here to be honest. It has no impact on the comics if it represents the audience, who just reads comics.