KingNanaya
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I appreciate you very much. Thank you@CrimsonStarFallen @Theglassman12 @DemonGodMitchAubin @Sir_Ovens @CloverDragon03
Are any of you willing to help out here please?
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I appreciate you very much. Thank you@CrimsonStarFallen @Theglassman12 @DemonGodMitchAubin @Sir_Ovens @CloverDragon03
Are any of you willing to help out here please?
No problem.I appreciate you very much. Thank you
Going on how this comment explains it, I think High 1-B makes sense but I don't deal with Tier 1 stuff so my input likely won't amount to much.Got permission to make a comment from @LephyrTheRevanchist.
A machine translation is being used for Roa's statement, when a more reliable human translation is already available here.
To make reading it convenient for everyone, the passage with context is found in the spoiler tag:
"Why reincarnation, anyway? It'd be a lot easier to prolong your own individual life, and more importantly, you wouldn't cause problems for anyone else."
"Because if I did that, I'd eventually reach a limit.
There is no upper bound to human perception――no end to the path toward omnipotence. No matter how transcendental you become, there will always be something that lies ahead."
"Take, for example, a certain nun who suddenly turned up among the Burial Agency. Using the sabbath, she became a devil, and so obtained a sense for the higher dimensions, turning functionally almighty in ours.
But even she is still bound by her material form――still bound to this universe.
As for why―――"
'Fortune may have allowed me to ascend to the seat of the demonic heavens to bring salvation upon all life, yet there I was naught but an insignificant initiate.
Though I had tried to gain true sight my whole life, what I finally beheld was not merely the truth of the world, but just how minuscule I was within it.
What then was the purpose of my metamorphosis, if all my efforts served to do was demonstrate to me how pitiful I was?'
'As such, I remain here in this world. Small though it may be, I find far greater purpose within myself here than on the other side...'
"Quite the silly story.
As soon as she became able to sense the 'outside' of the world, she felt her own powerlessness more acutely than ever before. Yet another example that drives home the limits of the individual.
I wanted to know everything.
Everything there is to know about this ever-expanding universe.
As such, it was pertinent for me not to seek strength or happiness on an individual level, but instead a self that continues to exist until the end of the world."
His desire contradicts itself.
The world will continue to expand.
He claims that he sought eternity in order to know everything, but that was doomed to be an endless journey from the start.
If what he says is true―――
That the world continues to expand and give birth to new things―――
Then even if he were to live for an eternity, he could never fully know everything.
"No, it is possible. It will definitely have a conclusion. I will definitely reach its conclusion.
It is for that reason that we exist. We were born into this world in order to define the eternity that is this universe. If not, there would have been no reason for us to become intelligent.
Even if the intelligent life born on this planet belongs to the past, and is far from understanding eternity, as long as the will persists, I shall continue to pursue this ever-changing voyage."
The highlight within the text is that Roa states that there is:
- 'No end to the path toward omnipotence'
- 'No matter how transcendental you become, there will always be something that lies ahead'.
As an example to prove his point, he cites Kiara becoming a demon to reach a higher dimension and become omnipotent/almighty within the human dimensions, only to learn how insignificant she is within the Demonic Heavens.
The argument is that if reaching a higher dimension is considered a step within the unending path toward (true) omnipotence, and an example of levels of transcendence that has no upper ceiling, then this implies High 1-B cosmology within the verse.
True Demons which Kiara becomes in some timelines are stated to be higher dimensional beings in materials. Qualitative superiority between dimensions is currently accepted based on evidence compiled here and here.
you're input is appreciated nonetheless. thank youGoing on how this comment explains it, I think High 1-B makes sense but I don't deal with Tier 1 stuff so my input likely won't amount to much.
snip
appreciate you both giving your input. @Paul_Frank I'll type some stuff up soon in responseI agree.
you pretty much got it, yeah. raum says other beings of the same dimensionality are limited by the universe, which is why he got the outer gods, as they are superior to the universe itself.The first side uses the fact that it says that she's bound to the Universe, then takes that to mean that the universe itself contains this high 1-B structure, due to a combination of her being bound here, and the universe being what said human perspective would apply to. (if I'm missing anything let me know, I only skimmed the Raum comment so I'm not sure the point it was trying to make)
That's fair. I just feel as if there are way too many miscellaneous unnamed/unexplained structures just floating around.If this is all there is for the sides, I do have to say the "it applies somewhere, but we don't know where, so only the root scales" side is probably making more sense than the universe side. However I do admit that the whole thing about human perception or whatever only applying to the universe is correct, so if more evidence can be provided I can be swayed towards the idea it scales to the Universe.
I appreciate you coming in nonetheless. get yourself some rest and a nice cold glass of water with some lemon. and one of those tiny paper umbrellas tooI can't avoid this thread everyone is sending me it rip
aren't staff roles like calc group and image helper allowed to comment without permission?@Paul_Frank Did you get staff permission to comment here? Your post doesn't mention it.
CGMs and Moderators can, but "Helper" roles cannot. This is spelled out a bit in the "benefits" section of each staff role page, for CGMs and mods it says they can comment in staff discussions.aren't staff roles like calc group and image helper allowed to comment without permission?
Most of us share the opinion of the High 1B statement applying only to the Universe and not beyond because of how existences outside the universe function. Take a look at the Throne of Heroes for example; it exists outside the world and lacks space and time, meaning it's dimensionless. This means it cannot have dimensions in it and by extension, the High 1B statement can't apply to the Throne. Look at Yog-Sothoth as well, he exists outside the universe and should exist beyond the Throne as well since it can affect and interact with it while existing beyond the Ultimate Gate which encompasses everything as it's adjoined to them. That means it can't follow the proper logic and laws of the regular universe which would also mean the High 1B statement doesn't apply to it. The Root is self explainatory. The High 1B statement can't apply to it as well since it's ontologically superior to every notion in the verse.If this is all there is for the sides, I do have to say the "it applies somewhere, but we don't know where, so only the root scales" side is probably making more sense than the universe side. However I do admit that the whole thing about human perception or whatever only applying to the universe is correct, so if more evidence can be provided I can be swayed towards the idea it scales to the Universe.
may I ask what this is in reference to specifically?Even if you have beyond dimensional existance, that doesn't mean you are beyond all levels of transcendence.
The post prior to mine.may I ask what this is in reference to specifically?
Well just looking at the OPYour help would also be appreciated here.
This can imply something I guess. But if this is the main source of evidence I also don't know if it's enough for High 1-BSo, the last threads about this wound up having many misunderstandings on both sides, myself included. So, I want to make this so that we can accept things one by one, and see if they apply to each other.
First, the statement that implies a high 1-B cosmology. We have Roa saying "There is no end to human perception, no end to the path to omnipotence. No matter how transcendent we become, there is always a higher level." and he uses Kiara Sessyoin as an example, saying "For example, She's a sister who somehow got mixed up with a burial agency. She says that she was demonized by Sabbat and gained higher dimensional senses that made her omnipotent in this dimension" and even stated after that "She is still bound to matter. She is still part of this universe."
This statement only implies that the totality of the universe is 3-Dimensional. It's just describing a X, Y and Z-axis. If anything those quotes would contradict a High 1-B space in my view.Second, the 6 doors statement. Just gonna quote it below.
there was more supporting evidence given after in my discussion with @SweetDaoThis can imply something I guess. But if this is the main source of evidence I also don't know if it's enough for High 1-B
aside from the fact that this contradicts the entire verse as we have it on this site, it shows in the raws that it says all possible spaces, which was accepted in a prior CRT. it has the raws and the English translations under the official translation when looking at it in the imgur album.This statement only implies that the totality of the universe is 3-Dimensional. It's just describing a X, Y and Z-axis. If anything those quotes would contradict a High 1-B space in my view.
In the same exerpt, it defines all possible spaces as the 3 dimensions. You can't just ignore that stipulation.there was more supporting evidence given after in my discussion with @SweetDao
aside from the fact that this contradicts the entire verse as we have it on this site, it shows in the raws that it says all possible spaces, which was accepted in a prior CRT. it has the raws and the English translations under the official translation when looking at it in the imgur album.
This is worse, since it means three directions are considered all possible spaces.aside from the fact that this contradicts the entire verse as we have it on this site, it shows in the raws that it says all possible spaces,
I'm not ignoring it. I had this point in the OPIn the same exerpt, it defines all possible spaces as the 3 dimensions. You can't just ignore that stipulation.
The six doors signifies every space going up and down, left and right, front and back.
that's not what I was doing. I included a whole conversation I had with @Executor_N0 that talked about the translation of it. in no way am I ignoring any part of the translation.I made the same point in the last thread. We can't simply split the scan in half (all possible dimensions / up+down,left+right,front+back) and say "well the latter should be dismissed because it contradicts other info, but we can use the former to scale this other statement to the universe!"
IMO, that is an absolutely unacceptable approach, we cannot use a scan that concretely defines the universe as having three spatial dimensions in conjunction with another scan which (purportedly) asserts infinite spatial dimensionality to create some kind of frankenstein scan that takes the most convenient sections of each and ignores the rest.
so are we supposed to ignore every single instance of higher dimensional feats or qualitative superiority?If anything, the 3D scan would at a minimum completely disqualify the alleged higher dimensions of the verse from scaling to the universe.
No, it's just that the three axis statement can't be used as supporting evidence for a High 1-B hierarchy.so are we supposed to ignore every single instance of higher dimensional feats or qualitative superiority?
even without it, we still have the fact that Roa is knowledgeable enough on higher dimensions that he put his soul inside the Root. He should be the most knowledgeable character on how dimensions work, outside of Void ShikiNo, it's just that the three axis statement can't be used as supporting evidence for a High 1-B hierarchy.
I dont follow the point you're trying to make.He should be the most knowledgeable character on how dimensions work, outside of Void Shiki
I'm saying that Roa, who was able to figure out how the root worked, should have the most knowledge on dimensions, as the root is 1-A. Roa's quotes in the OP takes place after he's been using the root to reincarnate. He should have the 2nd most knowledge, as Void Shiki herself is the root, and would be the most knowledgeable. If he says that there are infinite spatial dimensions, and he's never contradicted himself before, it should be safe to assume that he's right.I dont follow the point you're trying to make.
This feels like a drastic shift in topic from what was being discussed, hence my confusion. He also didn't say there were infinite spatial dimensions.If he says that there are infinite spatial dimensions, and he's never contradicted himself before, it should be safe to assume that he's right.
infinite levels of transcendence. you get the point. I don't feel as if it was that big of a shift, since I was providing Qawsedf more evidence that was talked about prior.This feels like a drastic shift in topic from what was being discussed, hence my confusion. He also didn't say there were infinite spatial dimensions.
Right but that's not the point of contention here. It is the application of the "doors" scan. The dimensionality of a verse as a whole notwithstanding, the six doors statement just cannot be used in any capacity to scale infinite dimensions to the universe, as this scan concretely limits the universe to three spatial dimensions. If you have a reason to scale the universe to Roa's statement (which I personally do not think is High 1-B), it'd have to be something other than the doors scan.infinite levels of transcendence. you get the point. I don't feel as if it was that big of a shift, since I was providing Qawsedf more evidence that was talked about prior.
I already gave my reason as to why it isn't referring to 3 spatial dimensions in the OP. if you still think that it isn't enough after reading it, then I'll just keep you in disagree.Right but that's not the point of contention here. It is the application of the "doors" scan. The dimensionality of a verse as a whole notwithstanding, the six doors statement just cannot be used in any capacity to scale infinite dimensions to the universe, as this scan concretely limits the universe to three spatial dimensions. If you have a reason to scale the universe to Roa's statement (which I personally do not think is High 1-B), it'd have to be something other than the doors scan.
Indeed. You should also add Qawsedf and Firestorm.if you still think that it isn't enough after reading it, then I'll just keep you in disagree.
as we're still discussing, I'd like to wait until they give a reason as to why my interpretation in the OP isn't validIndeed. You should also add Qawsedf and Firestorm.
Well the justification given is that it's just a phrase given to something that's infinite. But even in that context it would only be infinite in 3-dimensional format.I'd like to wait until they give a reason as to why my interpretation in the OP isn't valid
but that makes even less sense, because that would just make any higher dimension not possibleWell the justification given is that it's just a phrase given to something that's infinite. But even in that context it would only be infinite in 3-dimensional format.
The six doors...up, down, left, right, front, and back...represent all possible...dimensions. |
The Six doors, up and down, left and right, front and back, all of space, that is what they mean. |
The six doors are up and down, left and right, front and back, It means every space. |
To me, the idea that it's merely a coincidence that there are six doors, named for each direction of three dimensional space, is a fairly ridiculous notion.and the more literal one simply names the doors:
Did you link the wrong scan? Nothing is stated about creating dimensions.Kiara creating multiple higher spatial and temporal dimensions:
It never says they are spatial? In fact the wording suggests otherwise. If he is dropped back into his original dimension, singular, that would suggest it is referring to a realm. We occupy several spatial dimensions simultaneously.Medea transporting Shirou through many spatial dimensions:
okTo me, the idea that it's merely a coincidence that there are six doors, named for each direction of three dimensional space, is a fairly ridiculous notion.
the fact that it says "the third dimension" implies suchIt never says they are spatial? In fact the wording suggests otherwise. If he is dropped back into his original dimension, singular, that would suggest it is referring to a realm. We occupy several spatial dimensions simultaneously.