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Where Roa's High 1-B Statement Applies, 6 doors Translation, and Where They Both Fit

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ShadowWhoWalks said:
Got permission to make a comment from @LephyrTheRevanchist.

A machine translation is being used for Roa's statement, when a more reliable human translation is already available here.

To make reading it convenient for everyone, the passage with context is found in the spoiler tag:

"Why reincarnation, anyway? It'd be a lot easier to prolong your own individual life, and more importantly, you wouldn't cause problems for anyone else."

"Because if I did that, I'd eventually reach a limit.

There is no upper bound to human perception――no end to the path toward omnipotence. No matter how transcendental you become, there will always be something that lies ahead."

"Take, for example, a certain nun who suddenly turned up among the Burial Agency. Using the sabbath, she became a devil, and so obtained a sense for the higher dimensions, turning functionally almighty in ours.

But even she is still bound by her material form――still bound to this universe.

As for why―――"

'Fortune may have allowed me to ascend to the seat of the demonic heavens to bring salvation upon all life, yet there I was naught but an insignificant initiate.

Though I had tried to gain true sight my whole life, what I finally beheld was not merely the truth of the world, but just how minuscule I was within it.

What then was the purpose of my metamorphosis, if all my efforts served to do was demonstrate to me how pitiful I was?'

'As such, I remain here in this world. Small though it may be, I find far greater purpose within myself here than on the other side...'

"Quite the silly story.

As soon as she became able to sense the 'outside' of the world, she felt her own powerlessness more acutely than ever before. Yet another example that drives home the limits of the individual.

I wanted to know everything.

Everything there is to know about this ever-expanding universe.

As such, it was pertinent for me not to seek strength or happiness on an individual level, but instead a self that continues to exist until the end of the world."

His desire contradicts itself.

The world will continue to expand.

He claims that he sought eternity in order to know everything, but that was doomed to be an endless journey from the start.

If what he says is true―――

That the world continues to expand and give birth to new things―――

Then even if he were to live for an eternity, he could never fully know everything.

"No, it is possible. It will definitely have a conclusion. I will definitely reach its conclusion.

It is for that reason that we exist. We were born into this world in order to define the eternity that is this universe. If not, there would have been no reason for us to become intelligent.

Even if the intelligent life born on this planet belongs to the past, and is far from understanding eternity, as long as the will persists, I shall continue to pursue this ever-changing voyage."

The highlight within the text is that Roa states that there is:

  1. 'No end to the path toward omnipotence'
  2. 'No matter how transcendental you become, there will always be something that lies ahead'.

As an example to prove his point, he cites Kiara becoming a demon to reach a higher dimension and become omnipotent/almighty within the human dimensions, only to learn how insignificant she is within the Demonic Heavens.

The argument is that if reaching a higher dimension is considered a step within the unending path toward (true) omnipotence, and an example of levels of transcendence that has no upper ceiling, then this implies High 1-B cosmology within the verse.

True Demons which Kiara becomes in some timelines are stated to be higher dimensional beings in materials. Qualitative superiority between dimensions is currently accepted based on evidence compiled here and here.
Click to expand...
Going on how this comment explains it, I think High 1-B makes sense but I don't deal with Tier 1 stuff so my input likely won't amount to much.
 
I can't avoid this thread everyone is sending me it rip

So high 1-B is fine from what I can tell/what tier 1 people have said, and it was already accepted as high 1-B previously, the issue is where it applies.

The sides from what I'm aware of are that it applies to the Universe, it applies somewhere beneath Yog/the gate/doors, or it applies to some unknown structure that nothing scales to bar the Root.

The first side uses the fact that it says that she's bound to the Universe, then takes that to mean that the universe itself contains this high 1-B structure, due to a combination of her being bound here, and the universe being what said human perspective would apply to. (if I'm missing anything let me know, I only skimmed the Raum comment so I'm not sure the point it was trying to make)

The Yog side is basically just that the doors or whatever connect all that exists, Yog exists beyond the gate, therefore he's beyond the structure.

The scales only to the Root side simply says that this isn't enough evidence, citing things like the fact that what she actually gained is higher d senses, so her being bound to the Universe doesn't need to be because of some high 1-B structure existing within, but rather because she never let her physical form transcend in order to stay within the universe, out of fear of the stronger beings

If this is all there is for the sides, I do have to say the "it applies somewhere, but we don't know where, so only the root scales" side is probably making more sense than the universe side. However I do admit that the whole thing about human perception or whatever only applying to the universe is correct, so if more evidence can be provided I can be swayed towards the idea it scales to the Universe.

As for whether I agree with it scaling to Yog or the doors or gate or whatever, I mean, I can see the logic, I don't feel strongly about it either way, Outer Gods don't come up in story or scaling much (besides like, Summer BB with Nyarla, and Imaginary Scramble)
 
Paul_Frank said:
The first side uses the fact that it says that she's bound to the Universe, then takes that to mean that the universe itself contains this high 1-B structure, due to a combination of her being bound here, and the universe being what said human perspective would apply to. (if I'm missing anything let me know, I only skimmed the Raum comment so I'm not sure the point it was trying to make)
Click to expand...
you pretty much got it, yeah. raum says other beings of the same dimensionality are limited by the universe, which is why he got the outer gods, as they are superior to the universe itself.
Paul_Frank said:
If this is all there is for the sides, I do have to say the "it applies somewhere, but we don't know where, so only the root scales" side is probably making more sense than the universe side. However I do admit that the whole thing about human perception or whatever only applying to the universe is correct, so if more evidence can be provided I can be swayed towards the idea it scales to the Universe.
Click to expand...
That's fair. I just feel as if there are way too many miscellaneous unnamed/unexplained structures just floating around.
Paul_Frank said:
I can't avoid this thread everyone is sending me it rip
Click to expand...
I appreciate you coming in nonetheless. get yourself some rest and a nice cold glass of water with some lemon. and one of those tiny paper umbrellas too
 
KingNanaya said:
aren't staff roles like calc group and image helper allowed to comment without permission?
Click to expand...
CGMs and Moderators can, but "Helper" roles cannot. This is spelled out a bit in the "benefits" section of each staff role page, for CGMs and mods it says they can comment in staff discussions.
 
Paul_Frank said:
If this is all there is for the sides, I do have to say the "it applies somewhere, but we don't know where, so only the root scales" side is probably making more sense than the universe side. However I do admit that the whole thing about human perception or whatever only applying to the universe is correct, so if more evidence can be provided I can be swayed towards the idea it scales to the Universe.
Click to expand...
Most of us share the opinion of the High 1B statement applying only to the Universe and not beyond because of how existences outside the universe function. Take a look at the Throne of Heroes for example; it exists outside the world and lacks space and time, meaning it's dimensionless. This means it cannot have dimensions in it and by extension, the High 1B statement can't apply to the Throne. Look at Yog-Sothoth as well, he exists outside the universe and should exist beyond the Throne as well since it can affect and interact with it while existing beyond the Ultimate Gate which encompasses everything as it's adjoined to them. That means it can't follow the proper logic and laws of the regular universe which would also mean the High 1B statement doesn't apply to it. The Root is self explainatory. The High 1B statement can't apply to it as well since it's ontologically superior to every notion in the verse.

So from what we can see, every existence outside the universe either lacks dimensions as a whole or have some sort of physiology that makes it superior or inapplicable to the High 1B statement. That leaves us with the conclusion that the High 1B statement can only cap at the Universe as everything outside it are dimensionless.
 
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Antvasima said:
Your help would also be appreciated here.
Click to expand...
Well just looking at the OP
KingNanaya said:
So, the last threads about this wound up having many misunderstandings on both sides, myself included. So, I want to make this so that we can accept things one by one, and see if they apply to each other.

First, the statement that implies a high 1-B cosmology. We have Roa saying "There is no end to human perception, no end to the path to omnipotence. No matter how transcendent we become, there is always a higher level." and he uses Kiara Sessyoin as an example, saying "For example, She's a sister who somehow got mixed up with a burial agency. She says that she was demonized by Sabbat and gained higher dimensional senses that made her omnipotent in this dimension" and even stated after that "She is still bound to matter. She is still part of this universe."
Click to expand...
This can imply something I guess. But if this is the main source of evidence I also don't know if it's enough for High 1-B
KingNanaya said:
Second, the 6 doors statement. Just gonna quote it below.
Click to expand...
This statement only implies that the totality of the universe is 3-Dimensional. It's just describing a X, Y and Z-axis. If anything those quotes would contradict a High 1-B space in my view.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
This can imply something I guess. But if this is the main source of evidence I also don't know if it's enough for High 1-B
Click to expand...
there was more supporting evidence given after in my discussion with @SweetDao
Qawsedf234 said:
This statement only implies that the totality of the universe is 3-Dimensional. It's just describing a X, Y and Z-axis. If anything those quotes would contradict a High 1-B space in my view.
Click to expand...
aside from the fact that this contradicts the entire verse as we have it on this site, it shows in the raws that it says all possible spaces, which was accepted in a prior CRT. it has the raws and the English translations under the official translation when looking at it in the imgur album.
 
KingNanaya said:
there was more supporting evidence given after in my discussion with @SweetDao

aside from the fact that this contradicts the entire verse as we have it on this site, it shows in the raws that it says all possible spaces, which was accepted in a prior CRT. it has the raws and the English translations under the official translation when looking at it in the imgur album.
Click to expand...
In the same exerpt, it defines all possible spaces as the 3 dimensions. You can't just ignore that stipulation.
 
I made the same point in the last thread. We can't simply split the scan in half (all possible dimensions / up+down,left+right,front+back) and say "well the latter should be dismissed because it contradicts other info, but we can use the former to scale this other statement to the universe!"

IMO, that is an absolutely unacceptable approach, we cannot use a scan that concretely defines the universe as having three spatial dimensions in conjunction with another scan which (purportedly) asserts infinite spatial dimensionality to create some kind of frankenstein scan that takes the most convenient sections of each and ignores the rest.

If anything, the 3D scan would at a minimum completely disqualify the alleged higher dimensions of the verse from scaling to the universe.
 
Deagonx said:
I made the same point in the last thread. We can't simply split the scan in half (all possible dimensions / up+down,left+right,front+back) and say "well the latter should be dismissed because it contradicts other info, but we can use the former to scale this other statement to the universe!"

IMO, that is an absolutely unacceptable approach, we cannot use a scan that concretely defines the universe as having three spatial dimensions in conjunction with another scan which (purportedly) asserts infinite spatial dimensionality to create some kind of frankenstein scan that takes the most convenient sections of each and ignores the rest.
Click to expand...
that's not what I was doing. I included a whole conversation I had with @Executor_N0 that talked about the translation of it. in no way am I ignoring any part of the translation.
Deagonx said:
If anything, the 3D scan would at a minimum completely disqualify the alleged higher dimensions of the verse from scaling to the universe.
Click to expand...
so are we supposed to ignore every single instance of higher dimensional feats or qualitative superiority?
 
Qawsedf234 said:
No, it's just that the three axis statement can't be used as supporting evidence for a High 1-B hierarchy.
Click to expand...
even without it, we still have the fact that Roa is knowledgeable enough on higher dimensions that he put his soul inside the Root. He should be the most knowledgeable character on how dimensions work, outside of Void Shiki
 
Deagonx said:
I dont follow the point you're trying to make.
Click to expand...
I'm saying that Roa, who was able to figure out how the root worked, should have the most knowledge on dimensions, as the root is 1-A. Roa's quotes in the OP takes place after he's been using the root to reincarnate. He should have the 2nd most knowledge, as Void Shiki herself is the root, and would be the most knowledgeable. If he says that there are infinite spatial dimensions, and he's never contradicted himself before, it should be safe to assume that he's right.
 
KingNanaya said:
If he says that there are infinite spatial dimensions, and he's never contradicted himself before, it should be safe to assume that he's right.
Click to expand...
This feels like a drastic shift in topic from what was being discussed, hence my confusion. He also didn't say there were infinite spatial dimensions.
 
KingNanaya said:
infinite levels of transcendence. you get the point. I don't feel as if it was that big of a shift, since I was providing Qawsedf more evidence that was talked about prior.
Click to expand...
Right but that's not the point of contention here. It is the application of the "doors" scan. The dimensionality of a verse as a whole notwithstanding, the six doors statement just cannot be used in any capacity to scale infinite dimensions to the universe, as this scan concretely limits the universe to three spatial dimensions. If you have a reason to scale the universe to Roa's statement (which I personally do not think is High 1-B), it'd have to be something other than the doors scan.
 
Deagonx said:
Right but that's not the point of contention here. It is the application of the "doors" scan. The dimensionality of a verse as a whole notwithstanding, the six doors statement just cannot be used in any capacity to scale infinite dimensions to the universe, as this scan concretely limits the universe to three spatial dimensions. If you have a reason to scale the universe to Roa's statement (which I personally do not think is High 1-B), it'd have to be something other than the doors scan.
Click to expand...
I already gave my reason as to why it isn't referring to 3 spatial dimensions in the OP. if you still think that it isn't enough after reading it, then I'll just keep you in disagree.
 
KingNanaya said:
I'd like to wait until they give a reason as to why my interpretation in the OP isn't valid
Click to expand...
Well the justification given is that it's just a phrase given to something that's infinite. But even in that context it would only be infinite in 3-dimensional format.
 
Got permission to make this comment by @Qawsedf234

Reminder that the six door statement is a second topic and is meant for scaling, and is to be evaluated separately as mentioned in the OP.

Topic #1 is the High 1-B statement which has its own justification unrelated to the six doors statement.


As for the six doors statements, there are different translations on the six doors passage exists, and the more literal one simply names the doors:

Official translation:
The six doors...up, down, left, right, front, and back...represent all possible...dimensions.

Translation by @Executor_N0:
The Six doors, up and down, left and right, front and back, all of space, that is what they mean.

Google translation:
The six doors are up and down, left and right, front and back,

It means every space.

The objection was previously answered in a CRT that the directions of the doors aren't meant to represent 3 dimensions, just the six gates themselves.
Executor also explains that in Japanese media and culture this can be considered symbology to reference 'all of space' while including higher dimensions.

Furthermore, multiple higher spatial dimensions have been established and mentioned many times within the verse, hence the currently accepted interpretation is in complete consistency. To provide three examples:

BB mocking characters for only having three spatial dimensions:
W9ZnZlV.jpg


Kiara creating multiple higher spatial and temporal dimensions:
image1-8.png


Medea transporting Shirou through many spatial dimensions:
rXlbPRr.png


Once again, the six doors is a second topic relating to scaling, and isn't actually used as supporting evidence for the High 1-B structure.
The full context and text of the High 1-B statement is mentioned above here.
 
ShadowWhoWalks said:
and the more literal one simply names the doors:
Click to expand...
To me, the idea that it's merely a coincidence that there are six doors, named for each direction of three dimensional space, is a fairly ridiculous notion.
ShadowWhoWalks said:
Kiara creating multiple higher spatial and temporal dimensions:
Click to expand...
Did you link the wrong scan? Nothing is stated about creating dimensions.
ShadowWhoWalks said:
Medea transporting Shirou through many spatial dimensions:
Click to expand...
It never says they are spatial? In fact the wording suggests otherwise. If he is dropped back into his original dimension, singular, that would suggest it is referring to a realm. We occupy several spatial dimensions simultaneously.
 
Deagonx said:
To me, the idea that it's merely a coincidence that there are six doors, named for each direction of three dimensional space, is a fairly ridiculous notion.
Click to expand...
ok
Deagonx said:
It never says they are spatial? In fact the wording suggests otherwise. If he is dropped back into his original dimension, singular, that would suggest it is referring to a realm. We occupy several spatial dimensions simultaneously.
Click to expand...
the fact that it says "the third dimension" implies such
 
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