- 168,483
- 77,181
@Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT @Executor_N0 @Everything12 @Agnaa @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @Planck69 @Ovy7 @IdiosyncraticLawyer @DarkGrath
Would you be willing to help out here please?
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Tier 0 Swirl of the Root Retake
- Thread starter Ultima_Reality
- Start date
Would you be willing to help out here please?
- 168,483
- 77,181
Well, this is a tier 0 revision, so I think that a stronger support needs to be formed.
- 168,483
- 77,181
Not quite that extreme. You can check here if you wish: Discussion Rules
- 168,483
- 77,181
If the rules for tier 0 have changed in-between the two threads, yes that is correct.
Which staff members responded to the previous thread about this topic?
Last edited:
- 168,483
- 77,181
@Ultima_Reality @CrimsonStarFallen @Planck69 @Theglassman12
Are you willing to help out here please?
Are you willing to help out here please?
- 7,904
- 14,965
The discussion is ongoing. The last thread got out of hand so this one serves the purpose of acting as a reset now that the main points of contention have been established. The intention is to go point by point until the arguments have been laid out clearly, at that point Ultima is going to come to a decision. He's currently neutral. The staff agreements from the earlier thread took place before a lot of the new evidence and discussion took place.What are the staff conclusions here so far?
- 6,213
- 16,613
- Thread starter
- #47
The votes have indeed been reset.
You aren't staff, so your vote doesn't really count for anything.
Anyway: Stop with the superfluous comments, you all. I'll be deleting all of that.
- 1,976
- 1,581
Bumping this so it's not forgotten.
- 168,483
- 77,181
- 168,483
- 77,181
This is unnecessarily rude though. We should try to take knowledgeable non-staff evaluations into account.
- 6,213
- 16,613
- Thread starter
- #51
The debate hasn't really continued so far, so I can't exactly collect my thoughts as of yet. I can probably try and get this running later if I have some time, I guess.
No comment.
- 1,205
- 969
Got permission to make comments from @Antvasima.
short little post, really.
First, Kiara managed to reach the “throne of God”, which is exclusively used to refer to the root when becoming a true demon, meaning she became one of the “Gods” Aoko was talking about that resided there, and then managed to be kicked off due to some mishap. This contradicts the whole thing of “never being able to come back”, disregarding the fact that her presence alone makes it clear that the “never” being able to come back thing is,sketchy. Keep in mind she is said to be a “higher dimensional” being as well.
Also, not sure where the grail not leading to the root comes from.
short little post, really.
First, Kiara managed to reach the “throne of God”, which is exclusively used to refer to the root when becoming a true demon, meaning she became one of the “Gods” Aoko was talking about that resided there, and then managed to be kicked off due to some mishap. This contradicts the whole thing of “never being able to come back”, disregarding the fact that her presence alone makes it clear that the “never” being able to come back thing is,sketchy. Keep in mind she is said to be a “higher dimensional” being as well.
真性悪魔【事柄】EXTRA世界にあっても、悪魔の概念は人類にとって最大の障害として扱われる。神が全知能であるのなら、悪魔は人知無能の存在。手の届く範囲にありながら決して理解できない淵ふちだ。stay nightにおいて悪魔は偽物しか存在せず、本物————受肉した悪魔に人間は太刀打ちできないとされる。（＊受肉した悪魔を退散させた例は一件のみ記録されているが、それはまた別の話）たいてい悪魔は憑くものとされ、人間の体を用いて受肉しようと働くが、苗床になる人間の精神が耐えられず、周囲に魔をまき散らして自壊するのが通例。中には自らの業によって人間でなくなってしまい、結果的に悪魔のカテゴリーに含まれる人間もいるが、これは魔人化と呼ばれるもので真性悪魔ではない。EXTRA世界において、悪魔憑きであれ、自らの業で変化したものであれ、真性悪魔を生み出した現象は２０３０年現在、一つの成功例 もない。悪魔、魔人化、と銘打ってはいるが、その在り方は異なる文明圏、異なる惑星に住まう高次元生命体と変わらな い。なにしろこの認識宇宙における『人』でなくなったのだから。その在り方は二十世紀に流行した、とある創作神話における邪神の在り方に近い。ＣＣＣの真ルートで変生へんじようした ある人物はこの域に達しながら、些細なミスによって神の座から転落した。
and heres my translation:
True Demons [Concept] Even in the EXTRA world, the concept of demons is treated as the greatest obstacle to humanity. If God is omniscient, then demons are beings beyond human understanding. They are an abyss within reach but forever incomprehensible. In Stay Night, only fake demons exist; real demons — incarnate demons — are unbeatable by humans. (Note: There is only one recorded instance of an incarnate demon being repelled, but that is another story.) Typically, demons are believed to possess individuals, attempting to incarnate using human bodies; however, the mind of the human host usually cannot withstand the strain, causing them to self-destruct while spreading malevolence around them. Some humans, through their own actions, cease to be human and are included in the category of demons, but this is known as demonic transformation and does not qualify as a true demon. As of 2030 in the EXTRA world, no phenomena resulting in the birth of a true demon, whether through possession or transformation by one's own actions, have been successful. Although termed as demons or demonic transformations, their nature is no different from that of higher-dimensional life forms residing in different civilizations or on different planets. After all, they have ceased to be 'human' in this recognized universe. Their manner of existence closely resembles the form of eldritch gods depicted in a certain mythos popularized in the twentieth century. A certain individual in the true route of CCC, who reached this state of transformation, fell from the Throne of God due to a minor mistake.
and heres my translation:
True Demons [Concept] Even in the EXTRA world, the concept of demons is treated as the greatest obstacle to humanity. If God is omniscient, then demons are beings beyond human understanding. They are an abyss within reach but forever incomprehensible. In Stay Night, only fake demons exist; real demons — incarnate demons — are unbeatable by humans. (Note: There is only one recorded instance of an incarnate demon being repelled, but that is another story.) Typically, demons are believed to possess individuals, attempting to incarnate using human bodies; however, the mind of the human host usually cannot withstand the strain, causing them to self-destruct while spreading malevolence around them. Some humans, through their own actions, cease to be human and are included in the category of demons, but this is known as demonic transformation and does not qualify as a true demon. As of 2030 in the EXTRA world, no phenomena resulting in the birth of a true demon, whether through possession or transformation by one's own actions, have been successful. Although termed as demons or demonic transformations, their nature is no different from that of higher-dimensional life forms residing in different civilizations or on different planets. After all, they have ceased to be 'human' in this recognized universe. Their manner of existence closely resembles the form of eldritch gods depicted in a certain mythos popularized in the twentieth century. A certain individual in the true route of CCC, who reached this state of transformation, fell from the Throne of God due to a minor mistake.
Also, not sure where the grail not leading to the root comes from.
In Fate Visual Story ( i sent the scan in a previous post), its straight up said to fixate the root itself.
- 1,976
- 1,581
When has "the Throne of God" ever referred to the Root?
True Demon | TMdict
Even in the EXTRA world, things which fall under the category of demons are treated as the greatest obstacle to mankind’s continued existence. Humans think of
Here is a different translation which says that lost her seat as a god due to a mistake. This fits a little better since she is stated to be a god/Boddhisatva on the level of the Buddha.
Demonic Bodhisattva | TMdict
1 Mashou Bosatsu. This term is the widely-known nickname of a certain somebody. The horns jutting from her head are devil horns. This shows that she is
Trying to make a path to the Root is very different from actually succeeding.
Last edited:
- 7,904
- 14,965
Fate Zero:
| According to hermeticism, there's a power that governs dimensional theory outside of this world. It's called the 'swirl of the root', and it's a coordinate that's considered to be the beginning of all things. It's the start and the end of all creation. It's the throne of God, recording everything and able to create anything. |
Witch on the Holy Night:
| I don't care about the Root, and anyway, to this day there haven't been any survivors. There's not even proof that it's really the throne of the gods." |
All three are using the same Japanese words. The Kiara quote is "The person who transformed in CCC's true route reached this level but fell from the throne of God due to a trivial mistake."
- 1,205
- 969
im pretty sure the first quote is actually from stay night,but you get the idea, yea.
(Edit, there’s a nearly identical quote in both series, but there’s something interesting. The root is the “outside of the world” itself,rather than being located there.)
According to the teachings of occultism, there exists a "Power" at the pinnacle of dimensional theory outside this world. It is considered the starting point of all events, known as the 'Swirl of the Root' that is the earnest ambition of all mages… It is said to be the throne of God, marking the beginning and the end of all things, capable of recording and creating everything in this world. About two hundred years ago, there were those who took the steps to reach this "outside of the world."
- 1,205
- 969
as shown above, nearly every time it is heavily explained in the nasuverse.
Except that is incorrect, as the kanji says “kami no za” (throne of God). this is the exact same kanji used in the other 3 examples. When nasu wants to refer to something similar but different to an existing important term,he usually uses different kanji. (examples being the 3 different readings of “ultimate one”, 原初の一,極限の単独種, or even most recently in Ordeal Call 3,究極の一). yet he uses the same set of kanji here.True Demon | TMdict
Even in the EXTRA world, things which fall under the category of demons are treated as the greatest obstacle to mankind’s continued existence. Humans think ofwww.tmdict.com
Here is a different translation which says that lost her seat as a god due to a mistake. This fits a little better since she is stated to be a god/Boddhisatva on the level of the Buddha.
Demonic Bodhisattva | TMdict
1 Mashou Bosatsu. This term is the widely-known nickname of a certain somebody. The horns jutting from her head are devil horns. This shows that she iswww.tmdict.com
as stated multiple times in the verse and side material (and I even gave a scan of angra successfully using this pathway),it would be successful, the only problem is completing the ritual.
- 1,976
- 1,581
From what I've been told by other people before, 神の座 is just a generic phrase that means that something has reached the level of a god, which fits with Kiara's situation. It's not the only time this phrase has been used as it's mentioned in Hippolyte's profile in Fate/strange Fake (just go down to page 157) and apparently a ton of other places to indicate whether someone or something ascended to godhood and/or is on the level of a god.
The official translation of Witch on the Holy Night also translates it as "the seat of the gods," but as Aoko says, there's not actually any evidence for that. There hasn't been anything that shows gods residing in the Root, or anything like that. (Gods and Divine Spirits are connected to the Root, but that's an entirely different thing).
- 1,205
- 969
as explained earlier, the relation between gods and the root are extremely close, with them even being constructed with magical energy from it (the root).
regardless, Kiara,being a true demon means she cannot be a God in the traditional sense, as she has 0 divinity to speak of, and is an entirely different class of being.
Aoko later pretty much says that in order for mages to even know about it, means that there must have been at least one entity that resides there.
- 1,205
- 969
also quick note: (神の座), can also mean “position of a god”. Divinity in nasuverse measures divine spirit aptitude, for the most part.
Hippolyta’s profile means it in the context of, she does not have a divinity skill of A, so she does not have the aptitude of becoming a divine spirit after her death.
completely different from the Kiara example, as a True Demon is as far estranged from the human order and universe as possible, unlike divine spirits. There is 0 divine spirit aptitude within her, as she isn’t one, and is not related to one.
Hippolyta’s profile means it in the context of, she does not have a divinity skill of A, so she does not have the aptitude of becoming a divine spirit after her death.
completely different from the Kiara example, as a True Demon is as far estranged from the human order and universe as possible, unlike divine spirits. There is 0 divine spirit aptitude within her, as she isn’t one, and is not related to one.
- 1,205
- 969
alright, I was skimming through mahoyo and found scans that actually support one of the points in the OP about the root merely being at the top of the nasuverse’s dimensional hierarchy, rather than being beyond dimensions all together.
aoko here says you need to overcome a dimensional wall in order to reach the root.
All magic is created as a result of reaching the root, the difference is if it comes from using a method to reach the root, and the method being uplifted to magic,or gaining magic through using a pathway to gain an entirely new magic.
this includes the 3rd Magic, which can materialize the soul, a higher dimensional medium, and can manipulate it as needed.
KNK also confirms all 5 magics are some flavor of space-time manipulation.
a 1-A realm shouldn’t be able to be reached by space-time manipulation, let alone a tier 0.
aoko here says you need to overcome a dimensional wall in order to reach the root.
All magic is created as a result of reaching the root, the difference is if it comes from using a method to reach the root, and the method being uplifted to magic,or gaining magic through using a pathway to gain an entirely new magic.
this includes the 3rd Magic, which can materialize the soul, a higher dimensional medium, and can manipulate it as needed.
this is still problematic, as a higher dimensional being is still not supposed to be able to reach a 1-A or above plane, as they cannot be reached within a hierarchy of dimensions.
KNK also confirms all 5 magics are some flavor of space-time manipulation.
a 1-A realm shouldn’t be able to be reached by space-time manipulation, let alone a tier 0.
- 1,976
- 1,581
Are you talking about True Ether? Because as far as I know, it doesn't come from the Root. It's just the Mana that was around during the Age of Gods. Da Vinci says as much in Fate/Grand Order's Babylonia Singularity, and unless you're telling me that Siegfried and Sieg using Balmung draws power directly from the Root (or something like that), I'm inclined to stick with this.
The Black Barrel is also made using True Ether (I know, it's Type-Moon wiki, but I couldn't find anywhere else it was translated).
She's described as a "new god," and she's a (Demonic) Bodhisattva on the same level as Saver, the actual Buddha, and, while it is a slightly different Kiara, in Fate/Grand Order, she has the Skill, Goddess Metamorphosis to show that she transformed into a god.
She says that, but as she said earlier, there is no proof of that. And, as the narration says, even if it was true, they have no way back.
- 1,976
- 1,581
It's the other way around, she has B-Rank Divinity because she didn't ascend to Godhood after her death. Asclepius and Heracles have A-Rank Divinity because they became gods in their legends.
As I pointed out in my previous post (I'm realizing I should've just responded to these together, which is my bad, I forgot I could do that), Kiara is stated to have become a "god," and she would still be on the level of gods anyway since she's classified as a Bodhisattva.
- 1,976
- 1,581
That's an extension of Aoko's metaphor about True Magic to try and explain it and its differences with magecraft to Soujyuro.
The Third Magic is explicitly one of the "causes." It was developed to try to reach the Root, but that does not mean they succeeded.
That seems to be talking about the Second and Fifth Magic specifically, which is in-line with what they actually do. Also, this statement is only talking about what is impossible for modern humanity to perform, which does not mean that all True Magic involves space-time manipulation.
Plus, the most known about the Fourth Magic (even in universe) is that it exists, so even if this statement did mean that all True Magic utilized space-time manipulation, that's just baseless speculation since no one knows what the Fourth Magic even is.
You're right, but the Second Magic was only developed to try and reach the Root (there is no evidence that Zelretch succeeded in reaching it as far as I know), and the Fifth Magic was only obtained by "reaching" it (but as we know, Aoko and her grandfather actually turned back before actually reaching it).
- 1,205
- 969
check the first page of the thread, I posted a scan that says AOG mages drew energy from it.
the character for “god” here (at least in the first scan) is different here, telling you this isn’t meant to be a generic title. it uses the character for “heaven” with what I assume to be furigana in brackets saying (Kami) in hiragana.
this notably differs from Kami in kanji being used otherwise.
Both Aoko and sojuurou remark how information on it shouldn’t even exist if it hasn’t been reached. it’s later confirmed to be the “throne of god” in both stay night and zero anyway.
not my translation:
as explained about, the character used for her is completely different, and she is not a divine spirit. Nasu is very particular about these things, see Extra arc, she was nerfed because her master erroneously considered her to be a divine spirit/God.
yea, definitely not a metaphor, especially since one of the parts she described actually happens in hollow ataraxia.
see above, angra mainyu, using a portion of the grails powers, does exactly that.
also yes, yes it does. Aoko remarks on exactly that.
No. The statement does not say that, it’s a blanket statement.
also, true magic literally is what is impossible for modern humanity to preform, no matter the time or resources.
It’s said in the material profile, that the current magicians can point it out, and can confirm its existence. it just involves deduction inverse of what is not possible for human society, and hasn’t been reduced to the level of magecraft.
see above.
- 7,904
- 14,965
- 1,976
- 1,581
Is it alright if I respond to @Wankbreaker's post, or should I not to try and keep the thread more organized?
Also, is it possible to get more staff to look at this thread, or are they all busy?
- 7,904
- 14,965
I think it'd be better not to respond. This has essentially devolved into a full on non-staff CRT. This does not help anyone. I am going to be deleting some of the above comments and ask that @Wankbreaker and @Nightshade do not participate any further.
I'm not sure. I am deferring to how Ultima wants to go about handling the thread.
- 1,976
- 1,581
- 1,976
- 1,581
Bump
KingNanaya
He/Him- 3,132
- 4,312
bump
IdiosyncraticLawyer
Username OnlyVS Battles
Joke Battles
Administrator
Content Moderator
Translation Helper
- 3,256
- 3,961
Bump.
- 1,205
- 969
Bumping this and adding some new information
I make my leave.
- 1,976
- 1,581
What's this from?
- 1,205
- 969
KNK part 5.
To cement this further, Arayas subtitle in one of the popularity polls was “The One that opposes 「」“
alluding to his conflict against the CF in KNk
- 168,483
- 77,181
Tdjwo
He/Him- 3,180
- 1,299
This is a false mistranslation. Nowhere in the raw scans does it even remotely imply that the Counter Force takes the shape of the Akashic records. For someone claiming to be a translator on this site, it's very funny you quoted "scans" without posting where you got it from . Making such a blatant claim like this not only impacts the scaling of the verse, but also questions your neutrality towards the verse. As someone who claims to love Masadaverse and thinks it's a superior verse to Nasuverse and with how that verse has a very unreputable history of false mistranslations, I'm not surprised you chose to.
If everyone wasn't rushing me while i'm extremely busy, I'd have had more time to go through all of your translations because you definitely cannot be trusted with translations pertaining to Nasuverse, as you've been corrected more than once already. I would advise other translation helpers to go through Wankbreaker's translations. If I remembered correctly, @Paul_Frank has always been a trusted translator for the verse. I wonder where he is now.
Tdjwo
He/Him- 3,180
- 1,299
Got my perms from @Antvasima
The current proposition Deagonx defends is that the Swirl of the root only negates physical descriptions rather than 'placeness'; the root is either an abstract say, a universal of some sort or a physical place or neither. Any given abstract entity is reducible to some given semiotic reference and is nothingness insofar as it's not composed of physical complexity and not an entity or force of spatial or temporal extent, but it remains as something insofar as it's composed of metaphysical complexity and is intelligible in of itself (something akin to information or information itself.
This happens to be the case when analyzing different types of simplicities, wherein simplicity to a point where "all descriptions are meaningless" intrinsically falls under Hyper-noetic simplicity as described by Plotinus or what people call absolute divine simplicity, which is Tier 0 specifically. Given the fact that the root negates the notion of being because it is nothingness and, therefore, non-being. It is not something, but it cannot be nothingness insofar as it is merely not composed of physical complexity and a force of spatial and temporal extent, given the fact that it is said that "nothingness is absent" here.
Additionally, Shiki then says description serves no purpose. Note that abstract entities are intelligible; this does not appear to be intelligible whatsoever. Arcueid makes it clear as well that it is neither reducible to a record nor information; it just is.
Speaking of information, the main response provided for Akasha being information is just wrong. Satsuki Kurogiri doesn't take information from Akasha, if you read a little deeper into the text. They directly say it's records of the world/planet, the Infosphere, that contains memories of the planet. Something the world records, closer to the concept of the Akashic Records but on a lower level than it.
(For some reason vsbw isn't letting me reply to multiple quotes, so I will just quote Deagon's responses myself)
If the root is mana, then what you said previously, in regards to ancient mages regarding it as a commonplace is then wrong as well, because true ether is not a place it is mana. This further implies Ryougi is wrong in regards to her experience of the root, she once again she says its the same nothingness that expands everywhere and anywhere, but if the root is true ether and true ether doesn't exist in the surface texture, then the root doesn't expand anywhere and everywhere.
I could bring up more issues and internal inconsistencies with the propositions at hand, so please consider the implications of your positions instead of arguing in jest.
In any case the notion of mage's being closer to the root and so forth in the age of gods?
I wouldn't go as far as to say, "They were close to it, and it was commonplace for them". Considering that even if you have those paths, the world still continues to attempt to stop you from reaching the root. Which strangely enough, it is said that no mage has ever actually even beat the world when it came to reaching the root and every magus died trying to reach the root through that path, of course true magic existing by no means even entails that you reached the root, when you reach the root you gain true magic, but that isn't to say you gain true magic only if you reach the root. There are various circumstances where true magic was gained without reaching the root.
This is then further demonstrated in the next chapter as Aoko explains what the Swirl of the root is; she begins by saying, 'If you touch it and understand it, it can make the impossible possible.' Thereafter she says there haven't been any survivors who went there and came back alive and that 'there's no proof that it's the seat of Gods' and that 'nobody has come into contact with it and talked about it, because the soul returns back into nothingness', which leaves us with two alternatives.
Magicians don't actually come in contact with the Swirl of the root or this understand of it is false, considering that she says 'there's no proof it's x'.
She then says she knows alot about it because there was a person who reached and came back, this person presumably became God, right after she said there's no proof for this given possibility being true. This is made to specifically address her saying its possible for mage's to stand next to it, as she says it mage's stabilize their mage craft by standing next to it.
This understanding of the root from her perspective, for a person who is presumed to have reached it in a similar vein as reaching a place in a given coordinate system, when forced to speak about it. Instead of referring to her experience of it, she instead uses superstition. So she either knows about it as she experienced it or she didn't, but she says she doesn't remember it. So with the given evidence she doesn't know about, she knows there's a path but that same path is not something she knows to be reached as if the root was spatial.
In fact 'paths' don't require you to blow a hole to the outside of the world beyond, 'paths' exist in points that don't even go outside, they are just there. We also know "reaching the root" doesn't mean actually physically going to the outside of the world as it consistently interpreted.
As when Aoko activates True Magic, they liken activation of True Magic itself to be reaching the root itself, then she has an extensive dialogue about how the act of activating true magic, means to abandon thought and how she wanted to reach to disappear into an empty, thoughtlessness place as she continued to seek to activate true magic deep within herself, the same place she arrived in without any answers (the Swirl of the root).
We know its the Swirl of the root, because right after they after they say that she fuses with 'the consciousness' that hurtles back in time to 'Zero.'
The analysis of the path can be found here and here.
So as far as we know, creating a pathway has never been explicitly defined in a literal sense to be creating a portal, as far the Mahoyo is even concerned (the closest we've ever been to getting a description of the path). Going through a pathway or creating a pathway to the root involves a contemplative effort, rather than going physically to the root.
The current proposition Deagonx defends is that the Swirl of the root only negates physical descriptions rather than 'placeness'; the root is either an abstract say, a universal of some sort or a physical place or neither. Any given abstract entity is reducible to some given semiotic reference and is nothingness insofar as it's not composed of physical complexity and not an entity or force of spatial or temporal extent, but it remains as something insofar as it's composed of metaphysical complexity and is intelligible in of itself (something akin to information or information itself.
This happens to be the case when analyzing different types of simplicities, wherein simplicity to a point where "all descriptions are meaningless" intrinsically falls under Hyper-noetic simplicity as described by Plotinus or what people call absolute divine simplicity, which is Tier 0 specifically. Given the fact that the root negates the notion of being because it is nothingness and, therefore, non-being. It is not something, but it cannot be nothingness insofar as it is merely not composed of physical complexity and a force of spatial and temporal extent, given the fact that it is said that "nothingness is absent" here.
Additionally, Shiki then says description serves no purpose. Note that abstract entities are intelligible; this does not appear to be intelligible whatsoever. Arcueid makes it clear as well that it is neither reducible to a record nor information; it just is.
Speaking of information, the main response provided for Akasha being information is just wrong. Satsuki Kurogiri doesn't take information from Akasha, if you read a little deeper into the text. They directly say it's records of the world/planet, the Infosphere, that contains memories of the planet. Something the world records, closer to the concept of the Akashic Records but on a lower level than it.
(For some reason vsbw isn't letting me reply to multiple quotes, so I will just quote Deagon's responses myself)
I don't know what this means or even what you're talking about. I'm not sure why a scan wasn't sent for this.
This is a peculiar statement, where does this come from again? I don't think I've seen this anywhere, nor that it would be problematic if anyone bothered to read it. The “truth” in question is the root, and the energy obtained from it is “true ether”. Explains why it vanishes from the surface after the Age of Gods, as mages don’t exist along side “truth”. I'm quite confused. Is the analog supposed to be isomorphism? Saying it was as if some x is the case, is then saying x is the case? This is just an analogy, not it isn't to say the root has mana.
If anyone really cared to do it, in a similar vein anybody can manipulate Kanji to create sentences that diverge from the original context to suit their narrative, the root either is true ether or emanates true ether, if the root is true ether, then the root is mana not a world, but the root is a world albeit an ultimate reality, so the root is not mana.
If the root is mana, then what you said previously, in regards to ancient mages regarding it as a commonplace is then wrong as well, because true ether is not a place it is mana. This further implies Ryougi is wrong in regards to her experience of the root, she once again she says its the same nothingness that expands everywhere and anywhere, but if the root is true ether and true ether doesn't exist in the surface texture, then the root doesn't expand anywhere and everywhere.
I could bring up more issues and internal inconsistencies with the propositions at hand, so please consider the implications of your positions instead of arguing in jest.
In any case the notion of mage's being closer to the root and so forth in the age of gods?
Yeah, that's a hypothesis. It's a rumor discerned through understanding how, as time progresses, fewer paths towards the root persist within the world. Of course, this isn't to say all of it is wrong. I do think it's correct to say true magic was more common at the time than it is now. That is as far as a person can ascertain about the relationship between the root and contingent beings at the time.
I wouldn't go as far as to say, "They were close to it, and it was commonplace for them". Considering that even if you have those paths, the world still continues to attempt to stop you from reaching the root. Which strangely enough, it is said that no mage has ever actually even beat the world when it came to reaching the root and every magus died trying to reach the root through that path, of course true magic existing by no means even entails that you reached the root, when you reach the root you gain true magic, but that isn't to say you gain true magic only if you reach the root. There are various circumstances where true magic was gained without reaching the root.
Alba outlines how aiming for something that may or may not exist is pointless, as its possible to intrude upon the domain of God, all you have to do is devote yourself to gnosis, which is just mystical knowledge or esoteric knowledge by participation with the divine. In fact second magic magic and fourth magic wasn't gained through reaching it, it was made for reaching it, which of course still doesn't imply reaching it and coming back or standing next to as if it was some location, located "somewhere". Even for fifth magic, it was reached through the gate of Akasha. But even then, nothing implies the word 'reach' means approaching a specific coordinate. Aoko was asked by Touko, how it was to touch the Swirl of the root, as she presumed that the Swirl of the root was reached and touched to gain true magic, as per the rumors go. Aoko's response was, "she doesn't remember anything". Which coincides with the understanding Touko has later on as to what it means to reach the Swirl of the root itself.
Aoko's limited understanding of it is limited and almost nonexistent, despite having reached it, as she actually did inherit a path not the magic itself and she directly says she went to this 'path'. But despite that, as Touko says, it's only reached through emptiness but you're not aware of it, for all we know it's perfectly fine and conceivable, and in fact, I'd go as far as to say feasible that it's not reached in a similar way as a place in a given coordinate system is reached.
This is then further demonstrated in the next chapter as Aoko explains what the Swirl of the root is; she begins by saying, 'If you touch it and understand it, it can make the impossible possible.' Thereafter she says there haven't been any survivors who went there and came back alive and that 'there's no proof that it's the seat of Gods' and that 'nobody has come into contact with it and talked about it, because the soul returns back into nothingness', which leaves us with two alternatives.
Magicians don't actually come in contact with the Swirl of the root or this understand of it is false, considering that she says 'there's no proof it's x'.
She then says she knows alot about it because there was a person who reached and came back, this person presumably became God, right after she said there's no proof for this given possibility being true. This is made to specifically address her saying its possible for mage's to stand next to it, as she says it mage's stabilize their mage craft by standing next to it.
This understanding of the root from her perspective, for a person who is presumed to have reached it in a similar vein as reaching a place in a given coordinate system, when forced to speak about it. Instead of referring to her experience of it, she instead uses superstition. So she either knows about it as she experienced it or she didn't, but she says she doesn't remember it. So with the given evidence she doesn't know about, she knows there's a path but that same path is not something she knows to be reached as if the root was spatial.
In fact 'paths' don't require you to blow a hole to the outside of the world beyond, 'paths' exist in points that don't even go outside, they are just there. We also know "reaching the root" doesn't mean actually physically going to the outside of the world as it consistently interpreted.
As when Aoko activates True Magic, they liken activation of True Magic itself to be reaching the root itself, then she has an extensive dialogue about how the act of activating true magic, means to abandon thought and how she wanted to reach to disappear into an empty, thoughtlessness place as she continued to seek to activate true magic deep within herself, the same place she arrived in without any answers (the Swirl of the root).
We know its the Swirl of the root, because right after they after they say that she fuses with 'the consciousness' that hurtles back in time to 'Zero.'
The analysis of the path can be found here and here.
So as far as we know, creating a pathway has never been explicitly defined in a literal sense to be creating a portal, as far the Mahoyo is even concerned (the closest we've ever been to getting a description of the path). Going through a pathway or creating a pathway to the root involves a contemplative effort, rather than going physically to the root.
Tdjwo
He/Him- 3,180
- 1,299
@Ultima_Reality this is my take on the response. Please check it out if you can. This thread is long dead despite having votes already.
- 10,516
- 12,285
