Nasuverse Mega CRT Part 3: God Tiers

[CrimsonStarFallen]

So this will probably be the biggest thread out of all the ones planned, and I don't imagine it will pass without at least a little bit of fuss. But hey, nobody ever made progress being conservative, so let's just try going all the way.

Tier​

So let's look at the ever infamous Avalon, constantly disregarded because "there's no proof of how dimensions work in the Nasuverse".

The Everdistant Utopia [Noble Phantasm]
Avalon.
The paradise in the Arthurian legends; a scabbard bearing the name of the Faerie Land.
The utopia Avalon was thought to be derived from the island that produced the "Apple of Immortality" in Greek mythology.
Avalon mended all wounds and halted the wielder's aging process. After unleashing its true name, Avalon would break into hundreds of shards and shield the wielder from all interference.
The sheath of the holy sword was excavated by the Einzberns from Cornwall. It was given to Kiritsugu as a catalyst to summon King Arthur.
It was a Noble Phantasm reaching the realm of True Magic. Avalon shut out all physical interference, operation of parallel worlds, and multi-dimensional communication (up to the sixth dimension).
If Saber went hikikomori, no one would reach her.
-Fate/side material

Now, as covered in the prior thread discussing the Root, we do know how dimensions work in Nasu. All the scans are available there, but basically, BB becoming 4th dimensional using Imaginary Number Space allows her to see the past, present and future as one thing, effectively a book she can read. This explanation is corroborated in Fate/strange fake, where Zelretch sees timelines as pages in a book.

Now, just where is Avalon, again? In the Reverse Side of the World, more specifically, the "inner sea" of the planet where the Earth's soul is kept. The relevant part of this is that Avalon is still part of the World, it's not an independent realm, but rather just the deepest part of the Earth.

It is the final paradise, filled with flowers of every imaginable color.
In the day, it's filled with the spring sunlight and the scent of summer, and at night, you feel the fall air and look up at the winter stars.
The earth is filled with flowers and insects. The forests with water and green and beasts.
Beautiful fairies dance near the waterside.
In the myths, this tiny little world is called the Land of Eternal Spring, or the Island of the Apple.
It is a utopia, far beyond the reach of animals who possess wisdom.
Its name is Avalon. The inner sea of the planet.
It is another name for the place where the Earth's soul is kept.
-Fate/Grand Order, "The Tower of Avalon" (Merlin's Bond CE)

This means that completely destroying the World, in the context of Nasu, would mean destroying the Reverse Side and Avalon, and thus it would be a Low 1-C feat (Since Avalon is 6-D). Several NPs have been capable of this, such as Enuma Elish (Capable of destroying the world), a fully charged Ars Almadel Salomonis (Able to pierce through the planet), Mahapralaya (Completely destroys the world and remakes it), and Shooting Star Ortygia (Same as AAS).

More evidence of Low 1-C includes: Demons, and thus the true forms of the Demon God Pillars (which scales to Goetia), being higher dimensional beings who transcend the universe.

True Demon [Circumstances]

Even in the world of Extra, the concept of Demons (悪魔の概念, akuma no gainen?) is by humanity treated as the greatest of obstacles; so as God is to omniscience and omnipotence (全知全能, zenchi zenou?), so as demons as an existence are to mortal levels of awareness and impotence (人知無能, Jinchi Munou?, lit. "human intellect and impotence").

They are as an abyss (淵, fuchi?) that lies within arm's reach, yet decisively beyond comprehension.

Distinct from those demons from Stay Night, which exist only as imitations, the real thing -- Enfleshed Demons (受肉した悪魔, juniku-shita akuma?, lit. "Incarnated Demon") are that with which humans are incapable of competing 太刀打ちできない (tachi-uchi-dekinai, lit. "incapable of crossing swords"?).

(※ There is in record only a single instance in which an Enfleshed Demon was forced to disperse (退散, taisan?, lit. "disperse / retreat"), but that's a different story.)

In general, demons are existences that take possession, utilizing the corpus of a human to incarnate (受肉, juniku) and take action, but in the event that the psyche (精神, seishin?) of the human host (苗床になる人間, naedoko ni naru ningen?, lit. "the human that becomes a seed-bed") cannot withstand the strain, it is commonplace for self-annihilation (自壊, jikai?) of the host to occur, dispersing the essence of the demon into the vicinity.

There exist also humans who by way of their own acts (業, gō?, lit. "sins; worldly preoccupations / fixations / absorptions; karma") are subsumed unto the category of Demons as a result of losing their humanity; but these creatures that are said to have become Fiends (魔人, Majin?) cannot be considered True Demons.

In the world of Extra -- whether by way of Demonic possession, or in the circumstance that one's own actions bring about a transformation -- the phenomenon whereby a True Demon is birthed unto the world has, as of present day in 2030, not been brought successful fruition even once.

Though the classifications of "Demons" and "Fiends" do exist, their manner of existence is in essence indistinguishable from that of a higher-order lifeform (高次元生命体, kou-jigen seimeitai?, lit. "higher-dimension lifeform") that inhabits a different sphere of civilization (異なる文明圏, koto-naru bunmei-ken?) upon a different planet (異なる惑星, koto-naru wakusei?).

In sum, said existences can, per the recognition of the Universe of Awareness (認識宇宙, ninshiki-uchuu?, lit. "the universe derived of observation / perception"), no longer be discerned as "human."

Their existences would approximate to that of the cosmic horrors (邪神, jashin?, lit. "evil god") of a certain fictitious Mythos popular in the 20th century.

In the True Route of CCC, a certain individual that has undergone transmigration did indeed manage to reach this realm, but owing to a slight mistake, they were capsized from the Seat of Divinity (神の座, kami no za?-Fate/Extra Mats

Unlock: Return
Goetia’s objective is to reach the apex---
To become the sole existence in this planet.
Despite knowing of their helplessness, their ugliness, Solomon accepted humans without correcting them.
But the demons could not accept this, and eventually concluded that there is no value to humans and the future, and feared the result called extinction.
Their own extinction was a matter of course, but they felt repugnance over the conclusion of “everything disappearing”.

Unlock: Return
And thus, Goetia resumed activity by making king Solomon’s corpse into his nest, but there was a great dilemma in his way of being.

In spite of asserting that humans had no value, the demons could not exist without being employed by humans.
The disgrace of having to remain under humans - the sole and greatest “waste of resources” in this universe - despite being life forms of a higher dimension.
Goetia could not accept such contradictions and unfaithfulness, and set out on a quest of self-reform.

Reset the objective of serving humans.
Absolute proof that he is the highest existence in this planet.
Reaching the apex that not even Solomon could attain.
In other words, the beginning of the great venture of becoming God.-Goetia's My Room Profile

The Buddha exists beyond space and time.

Which is consistent with Kiara, a Buddha, reaching the same level as a True Demon, who, as said previously, are also higher dimensional. Kiara also created the Cage of the Fallen, a place with more spatio-temporal dimensions that exists beyond everything.

Amaterasu has so much Divinity that she isn't limited by the time axis.

Golden White Face [Circumstances]
Konjiki Hakumen.
This is the nine-tailed divine spirit form of Cas-ko. In this form she is a pseudo-god that is a deification of the sun. You get a peek of her like this in her 3rd Secret Garden. The apathetic Sun Goddess [Amaterasu Oomikami].

When Cas-ko goes into nine-tails mode this is what she will……not be. This form is Cas-ko’s origin, and is now just something that’s been part of her since long ago and continues to be a part of her. When she becomes this high level of a divine spirit, the time axis is no longer a limiting factor to her.

Normally someone entering the mausoleum would be burnt to a crisp, but as expected of our Zabio/Zabiko [nicknames for the male/female protagonist] he or she flaunts their recklessness in the face of danger (stupid menu choices), and somehow pull through.

Originally we wanted to feature her without clothing (in her lovely nine-tailed divine spirit form wearing only an apron [naked-apron]), however, unable to break through the ethical wall that is our consciences, she appears properly clad in her ceremonial attire.

By the way, when someone who has no dream enters the mausoleum, the only thing that can be seen is a giant sun.-Fate/Extra Mats

Now, there's also the subject of the MoonCell's 8-D barrier, which we all know about. That matter is a little more uncertain.

BB :: However…The Moon Cell is, you might say impudent, or that its defenses are flawless. Even though I managed to pass through the imaginary number space at the speed of light, a huge wall now stands before our devilish heroine BB-chan! It’s a perfectly spherical spirit particle defense wall that cuts through eight dimensions. It looks like it’ll be very hard to break down this wall. But this is the last move. After I break this wall into little pieces I’ll have reached my goal. So I’ve left all of you in Meltlilith’s care. The girl can’t really take a joke, but her work is perfect. So take care, senpai. Please entertain me with your useless flailing on this layer too ♥ -https://tsukinoura.wordpress.com/2014/06/10/entry-129-we-need-to-focus-guys-no-really/

While we could treat it as a 1-C feat, the scale is higher than any other tier 1 feat in this thread, which cap at Low 1-C. However, it still definitely happened so it can't just be ignored I feel. It's why I suggest Low 1-C (based on the reasons given), possibly 1-C (based on 8-D structures).

On a minor note as an extension of this, Ivan, Adam and Artemis should just have their 4-B tiers removed (And by extension, Super Orion's "likely" for his rating). It's an unnecessary low-end that only seems to exist for the purposes of creating more vs. matches. As a Grand, Orion is specifically intended to fight against the Beasts, if he were any other tier than them then he'd be one-shot with no effort, which doesn't make any amount of sense, and with Artemis' feats in Atlantis, she absolutely scales, as do Zeus and Ivan. Hell, Zeus has better feats anyway, since it's stated in Olympus that his lightning can incinerate the universe, and Wodime while dying deflected an attack that could vaporize a Fantasy Tree. Same applies to the Types, the 5-A low-end is extremely unnecessary and nothing points against them scaling to 2-A/Low 1-C/1-C when considering Arc being able to defeat Amaterasu.

Speed

As can be seen in BB's profile, everyone who scales to Low 1-C should also have Immeasurable reactions, thanks to Hakuno's Servants being able to battle her even with her 4 dimensional conscience.

Other examples from above also give other characters straight up Immeasurable, such as Goetia, Kiara and Buddha being higher dimensional beings.

Lifting Strength

Similar to Speed, the existence of higher dimensional characters at Low 1-C indicates Immeasurable lifting strength.
Another example of note is Tiamat:

Who is essentially a 4-D pocket space with infinite internal capacity.

Summary

AP: Low 1-C, possibly 1-C (Affects all current 2-As, although all current 5-Bs should be upgraded to Low 1-C for overpowering the planet with the exception of Moriarty because the Earth he was gonna destroy didn't have any of the protections of the planet)

Speed: Immeasurable reactions (and flat for higher dimensional characters)

Lifting Strength: Immeasurable

 

[Paul_Frank]

This looks good, I agree with this stuff as you know already. Especially removing the low ends, finally

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Good luck lol, I agree

 

[Ionliosite]

I do, in fact, agree with 1-C BB, so you get my vote as well.

 

[deonment]

I agree with this and good luck, though i am neutral on 1-C and would rather have it be nuked off the face of the earth but oh well

 

[Regidian]

I agree too, a thing that was planned for a long time

 

[Lormac_CC]

Neutral on 1-C

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I wholeheartedly agree with the OP.

 

[Loyd]

makes sense.

 

[Mageman460]

I agree with the Low 1-C tier, but I also feel it worth being mentioned that the reason destroying the Earth in Nasuverse isn't 5-B because the World will actively resist it through the Counter Force. Effectively meaning you have to break a {insert Gaia's tier} barrier and a 5-B structure (granted the 5-B would be nothing at that point). This is what makes Moriarty's 5-B feat 5-B instead of {insert Gaia's tier}.

I think I disagree with 1-C. It seems more like BB bragging or something to me, but I could be convinced otherwise.

Artemis, Ivan, Super Orion, Zeus, and Adam all need their god tier status solidified I agree.

Speed, absolutely agree.

Lifting Strength, I ... feel like this only really scales to Tiamat? Maybe Gorgon? No one else really restrains her or contends physically with her iirc.

 

[Comicgyal]

Agree with everything.

 

[Paul_Frank]

I'm not sure how the 1-C could be considered just BB bragging, as even if she was bragging about breaking through the 8d wall, there was still an 8 dimensional wall generated by the mooncell to begin with (the same mooncell she later becomes). If you meant she was just bragging and making up the strength of the wall, idk, going for 8 dimensional specifically is a rather odd thing to randomly pick, so that doesn't sound too likely.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

I agree with the Low 1-C tier, but I also feel it worth being mentioned that the reason destroying the Earth in Nasuverse isn't 5-B because the World will actively resist it through the Counter Force. Effectively meaning you have to break a {insert Gaia's tier} barrier and a 5-B structure (granted the 5-B would be nothing at that point). This is what makes Moriarty's 5-B feat 5-B instead of {insert Gaia's tier}.

Yeah, that's definetly part of it, but Gaia as an structure, deeper down, is obviously not 5-B. I mean, the textures themselves are the only things that keep the laws of physics within the planet/universe (because space is also a texture).

The planet is ******* weird lol, but i get your point yes. A "World" page should probably be made.

Lifting Strength, I ... feel like this only really scales to Tiamat? Maybe Gorgon? No one else really restrains her or contends physically with her iirc.

As i said, that was just another piece of evidence, other characters being higher dimensional also count towards it. They shouldn't be physically weaker than Tiamat, anyway.

 

[Catzlaflame]

agreed

 

[Lormac_CC]

After going through again, I agree with the low 1-C, disagree with 1-C. Agree with the speed.

 

[PsychoWarper]

Agree with everything, nice job Crim.

Kinda funny a bunch of people still disagree with 2-A and here we are going for Low 1-C/1-C kek.

 

[Lormac_CC]

Avalon shut out all physical interference, operation of parallel worlds, and multi-dimensional communication (up to the sixth dimension)
Just wanted to ask, is this the only proof for 6D Avalon

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Low 1-C looks alright to me.

Although, I have a question: Is there any indication that anyone scales to these eight dimensions aside from that barrier? Because, from the looks of it, it's just described as "cutting through" eight-dimensional space, as opposed to being 8-dimensional itself. And, yeah, there is a difference: A shape can be embedded into higher-dimensional space, but still be a lower-dimensional object, with some examples of that being a sphere (Whose formal definition is "2-dimensional boundary of a ball," which is the actual 3-D object) and a circle (Which is likewise the 1-dimensional boundary of a disk, the actual 2-D object)

 

[Paul_Frank]

Assuming it only meant that the wall cut through 8 dimensions and not that the wall was 8d, the 8 dimensions it cut through would also be contained in the mooncell, as that's where that whole game took place, which means that when BB became the mooncell, that space is included

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Alright, then.

 

[Lormac_CC]

Assuming it only meant that the wall cut through 8 dimensions and not that the wall was 8d, the 8 dimensions it cut through would also be contained in the mooncell, as that's where that whole game took place, which means that when BB became the mooncell, that space is included

Is the moon cell 8D, i thought it can only create 8D space

 

[Saiyan40009]

I do not really see under 1C nothing shows that there is an infinite difference between dimensions or reality fiction the statement of the book does not enter fully since Zeletch uses it as a tool to observe the parallel worlds but it is not the same or it means that he recognizes the lower world as fiction or exercises infinite tracendence

 

[Regidian]

I do not really see under 1C nothing shows that there is an infinite difference between dimensions or reality fiction the statement of the book does not enter fully since Zeletch uses it as a tool to observe the parallel worlds but it is not the same or it means that he recognizes the lower world as fiction or exercises infinite tracendence

Pretty sure that this is a reality fiction statement.


Rin :: On the other hand, the laws of the recorded universe are different. The perception of the recorded universe is over many dimensions…think of it as a higher dimensional existence. From this higher dimension, the third dimension looks like a flat scroll. Er, if the three-dimensional world is a world drawn in a book

 

[Tam0n3n]

Agree with everything.

Also i think Outer Gods qualify for 1-C too

They are higher dimensional life forms, Foreigners, which a "single dreamer" correctly determined the presence of in his fictional mythos.
According to Gilles de Rais the Outer Gods are entities that are strong, gross and large in size. They are removed of the Common Sense of Man, the laws of physics, the principles of magecraft, and from human mentality, making it normally impossible to interact or communicate with them without being driven hopelessly insane or worse. - https://typemoon.fandom.com/wiki/Outer_God

 

[Paul_Frank]

Is the moon cell 8D, i thought it can only create 8D space

Well as Ultima pointed out, the statement said that the wall "cuts through" 8d space. So if you assume that means the wall itself isn't 8d, and that it means the space it's cutting through contains 8 dimensions, as that's inside the mooncell, that would necessitate the mooncell itself being 8 dimensional

Otherwise you could say the wall is 8d, and that it's just capable of making 8d walls, and then say it scales via being able to fit the 8d walls in itself in the first place

That's where the possibly 1-C comes from, if ignored physically, you could just say it scales to only hax instead, depends on how you look at it.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Also i think Outer Gods qualify for 1-C too

Sut-Thyphon could probably scale to 1-C based on this:

But nothing really scales to it now except Abigail's Noble Phantasm, and if i have to deal with this, i'd do it in the next thread (which is for misc'd revisions)

@Lormac_CC

Nope, we also have:

The Occasionally Hazy Wall of Chalk

A Defense Skill that allows one to arbitrarily put an Invincibility Effect on someone among their party. Their NP also goes up a little.

In accordance with its name of how it is called ‘Occasionally Hazy’, the target temporarily shifts out of the time axis in order to avoid attacks. If the rank was higher, the target could even phase through attacks, among other things, from a higher dimension. That principle is close to a certain Defensive Noble Phantasm that is used to target its own user. (Avalon)-FGO Mats 1

Besides, the quote itself is pretty clear anyway.

 

[Lormac_CC]

Well as Ultima pointed out, the statement said that the wall "cuts through" 8d space. So if you assume that means the wall itself isn't 8d, and that it means the space it's cutting through contains 8 dimensions, as that's inside the mooncell, that would necessitate the mooncell itself being 8 dimensional

Otherwise you could say the wall is 8d, and that it's just capable of making 8d walls, and then say it scales via being able to fit the 8d walls in itself in the first place

That's where the possibly 1-C comes from, if ignored physically, you could just say it scales to only hax instead, depends on how you look at it.

The moon being 8D doesn't really make sense to me. For the hax, I really don't see how I can scale them to 1-C hax, It would only be HDM,

 

[Paul_Frank]

The Mooncell being 8d doesn't seem that far fetched when you realize that the mooncell was made by the most advanced race we know of currently, and that the planets are already higher d as shown with the Avalon and reverse side stuff. They're not just normal 3d things.

As for hax, it would be because authority already can scale to the authority of the mooncell that BB claimed when she became the mooncell, the authority of the mooncell is kinda like, just the right to do all of its stuff.

 

[Lormac_CC]

The Mooncell being 8d doesn't seem that far fetched when you realize that the mooncell was made by the most advanced race we know of currently, and that the planets are already higher d as shown with the Avalon and reverse side stuff. They're not just normal 3d things.

As for hax, it would be because authority already can scale to the authority of the mooncell that BB claimed when she became the mooncell, the authority of the mooncell is kinda like, just the right to do all of its stuff.

Does the mooncell exists through out the Nasuverse

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I don;t think we should rush this btw. Just remember the last few threads that happened lol.
At least leave it open a couple of weeks


usually it takes a week before someone comes in and disagrees with it with some form of an argument lol

 

[Lormac_CC]

I don;t think we should rush this btw. Just remember the last few threads that happened lol.
At least leave it open a couple of weeks


usually it takes a week before someone comes in and disagrees with it with some form of an argument lol

Yeah

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I wholeheartedly agree with the OP.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

I don;t think we should rush this btw. Just remember the last few threads that happened

Yeah i'm leaving until Ant gives the okay command lmao

 

[Paul_Frank]

Does the mooncell exists through out the Nasuverse

I mean, it exists in more universes than just Extra if that's what you're asking, as shown with it existing in FGO and such.

 

[Miyako_Rev]

It looks good, I agree with BB Low 1-C

 

[Hasty12345]

So I have a few concerns about some of this evidence.

1) For the Avalon stuff, Its not a physical realm within the planet. This came straight from the Garden of Avalon Light Novel.

"“No… that is not the most correct expression to describe such a thing. For this realm is after all set upon both a higher and a lower plane of our world. I would say that it exists in the exact same point and location but off-set by several phases.”"

This is a statement from Merlin

00. At the Garden

The plains were smooth and covered by blossoms of every colour. Standing amidst them and taking in the panorama, only some groves of trees in the distance would obstruct your view of the green eart…

canonrap.wordpress.com

the wiki doesn't use dimensional tiering. Calling something "6th dimensional" doesn't qualify for an AP upgrade. To be low 1-C, you'd have to prove Avalon (or the world you're scaling) is 2 uncountable infinities above low 2-C - which can be done via 2 levels of reality fiction difference or an equivalent feat etc etc.

Furthermore, dimensions are explicitly finite:


There's more scans about this is lostbelt and FGO as well I can provide.

This is why dimensional tiering is flawed as energy is a scaler value, there's no such thing as "infinite 4D energy>infinite 3D energy" (unless the fiction otherwise states in accordance with the tiering system), the verse states infinite energy cannot exist, which really caps the verse 3-A by the wiki's standards. However, since there's tier 2 feats (i.e. Moon Cell) 2-C to 2-B is fine. So unless you have more explicit proof of the verse following low 1-C standards of the wiki, then I cannot support an upgrade.

Therefore, having infinite power is a literal contradiction, and you're arguing 4 levels of uncoutable infinite above high 3-A, which seems to contradict verse mechanics. Hence why it's clear your arguments can only apply to existence, and not scale to AP.

2) The Goetia statements are as flowery as they get, but even taking them literal it only proves 4D existence and doesn't at all speak to AP. You can't scale AP to dimensional existence without proof they're uncountably infinite superior to the dimensions below, which you haven't shown here.

3) The Buddha statement is clear hyperbole, as it literally stated in the second half of the sentence "He could send a message from the past to the future" which isn't a low 1-C feat... It's not even a higher dimensional existence feat, it's at best time travel/manipulation. It doesn't help you build consistency for the argument you're trying to present.

4) The statement "When she becomes this high level of a divine spirit, the time axis is no longer a limiting factor to her." Is vague, and doesn't say in which capacity she's not limited, so the only way you'd argue it's for AP is a consistency argument, in which in seems like you're just compositing a whole bunch of vague statements which don't seem to or you haven't proven correlate to AP at all.

5) The "8D barrier" has no proof of being 4 levels of infinity above low 2-C, I'm not even convinced based on that statement alone you can even prove it's referring to 8 spatial dimensions.

So after all that, the Moon Cell should be downgraded to 2-B and I'm fine if BB could possibly have 6D or 8D existence as well as a HDE upgrade for those who scale etc.

Please don't jump me, I know this is a controversial stance to take, but I feel as though the evidence provided doesn't prove the claims to my understanding of the wiki's standards. I happy to be proven wrong.

Edit: please bare with me whilst I figure out how to get these scans working

Edit 2: it turns out I can only have 5 "media" in one post, I'll have to compile all these images, won't be long

Edit 3: Seems like I have to make a separate CRT to get rid of some things that were previously accepted, I won't bother debating here.

 

[John985]

Go back and read the Root thread, where the higher dimension stuff was proven.

And agree with the upgrade.

 

[deonment]

Uh, dimensions in natsu are already accepted to have a r/f between them and the one below them

 

[Zencha9]

Yeah i pretty much agree with this good job crimson

 

[Hasty12345]

Go back and read the Root thread, where the higher dimension stuff was proven.

Uh, dimensions in natsu are already accepted to have a r/f between them and the one below them

I'll be making a CRT about that then at some point