Where Roa's High 1-B Statement Applies, 6 doors Translation, and Where They Both Fit

[KingNanaya]

I was informed Executor agrees with the thread now, so I'm leaning towards that now.

should I keep you in neutral or should I put you in agree?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Agree for now.

 

[Elizhaa]

High 1-B seems to make sense.

 

[Deagonx]

I'm still against High 1-B. It's too speculative for me to assume that the meaning of "higher level" on the path to omnipotence has anything to do with spatial dimensionality or qualitative superiority, especially given that we have seen the word for transcendent used in this monologue for things that are unrelated to spatial dimensions, and it seems that there is evidence against infinite spatial dimensionality.

@Qawsedf234 have you come to a decision about this?

@DarkGrath @DontTalkDT Would either of you be able to read the OP and give your thoughts about if you think High 1-B is sufficiently justified by the scan?

 

[SweetDao]

I got permission once again from Deagonx.
My message will solely answer Shadow's post out of respect for the time he has put to answer me. It's only natural I reciprocate. If you do answer that reply of mine, I'll probably not go further on the thread since practically everything have been said, so if there is a need to continue the debate, we can do so in private messages if we both wish to.

So no, the point of the thread is not to argue what Roa's main point is.

Actually, it very much is. There is a world apart between stating what he's saying in need of an image to explain his ideas and stating it as a matter of fact. It can be used as cosmological evidence, but not to imply something that Roa himself never implied in the first place.
Really, there is no need for grand semantic debate to know for a fact that what he said is just an image. If you want it to be a fact it needs to be substantiated within the work itself, which, beside Kiara, isn't ever mentioned again.

Regarding the second paragraph, actually, the top-tier vampires are considered more powerful than most gods. So calling the species transcendental wouldn't be wrong. Fun fact: ORT inherits the title of Dead Apostle Ancestor, and so did Primate Murder who is one of the Beasts.

I've never said that the way he calls them is "wrong". In fact, I think "transcendental" is quite fitting, seeing the different definitions of the word. Vampires are a species that goes beyond the realm of "humans" and as such, transcend the human's mind. They are supernatural/Superhuman, whatever you wish.
I don't know exactly what you meant by "more powerful than gods", I suppose you're saying that they are higher dimensional? Nanaya told me Vampire were 4D, but whether they are or not isn't important in the context to be fair.

I can agree that transcendence can mean different things. However we know from the example provided by Roa that it ALSO means becoming higher dimensional.
So even if it also means other things, the qualifiers would also apply to the state of becoming higher dimensional (in fact, this is what the example highlights).

I think we're clashing different point of views on how that word is used. For me, it qualifies everything that is supernatural, which would indeed include Kiara's experience. It does apply to that, but doesn't solely describe a dimensional transcendence and could just mean a gap in strength or any weird supernatural event happening. I mean, the fact that vampires "are transcendental" because they don't age and can resurrect after death should be enough proof to show that "transcendental" doesn't even have to deal with power or dimensionality and can be for more mundane/down to earth stuff.

I would like to do the same thing you did in your message, but I don't know how to, so I apologize if my own version is very crude in comparison.

What is a confirmed example for a method to going through the path toward omnipotence? Ascending to higher dimensions.

You go through the path toward omnipotence at any level. If you're a mage slightly stronger than a human, you're walking toward that path. While I agree that ascending to higher dimensions seems to be a way too, it's not like "it's a step" toward it. Growing in strength is. The method is irrelevant here. That you become omnipotent using higher dimensionality, raw strength, raw magic or anything is not important, the point is getting to a level Roa designate as "Omnipotence".

Is there an end to the path toward omnipotence? No. Even if you become omnipotent to a lower dimension.

So then, you don't reach omnipotence, you just achieve the peak in one dimension and not another? Roa himself is probably comparing what Kiara experimented as "seeking strength". This seems in accordance to what he states, even if you think you're "the most transcendental (supernatural/superhuman)", in reality you're not.

What is a confirmed example of becoming transcendental? Becoming higher dimensional.

Anything that is out of the realm of the humans falls into "being transcendental". Such as not being able to age and resurrecting after death.

Can you reach an endpoint by becoming transcendental? No. No matter how transcendental you become.

Indeed, that's what he states. If we take it literally and not like a conceptual image for what he's trying to convey. But since "transcendental" doesn't solely designate someone transcending to higher dimension, but also more down to earth things, what makes you think "no matter how transcendental" = "No matter your dimensionality, there will be someone higher above you" ? If it was the only time that word was used, and we associated "transcendental" with higher dimensionality, I could see the argument, but since it's not the case, you can't assume every "transcendental" being is higher dimensional compared to the one below it.
If anything, I'm sure "Vampires are more transcendental than other species and less transcendental than others". Once again, whether they are 4D or whatever isn't important since Roa used that word to designate their ability to not age and resurrect, nothing about their physicality or dimensionality.

Conclusion: You can endlessly transcend to a higher dimension and still be able to transcend further.

Nope, if anything, Kiara shows that there is indeed a limit. Let's recap what happens, okay?

Kiara gains Higher-dimensional senses that made her "omnipotent" in the human dimension. Proof.
Upon using her senses, she ascended to "the seat of the demonic heavens"which I assume is a plane of existence. Proof.
Here, in that place, "the demonic heavens", she realized that she was nothing more than an "insignificant initiate". Proof.
After realizing that, she saw how minuscule (as an entity/human individual) she was and begin questioning her own worth. Proof.

So tell me, for someone who is supposed to prove an infinite number of dimensions within the universe, isn't it weird that she compare herself very finitely to her peers? "Initiate" doesn't mean that the other people are more powerful than her, but more so "more experienced than her". Even when she describes herself as "minuscule" it's not really what I would call myself in front of higher dimensional beings, it is still very much a finite comparison.

Furthermore, she states that was she saw is "the truth of the world". So it means that she saw "everything" in the sense that, what she gazed upon was "the whole thing". She's not saying "a portion of the truth" or "a glimpse of the truth". No. When she entered the demonic heavens and saw her peers, she understood and realized the truth of the world. Adding to that, what she sensed was the "outside" of the world. There was no mention of others realms or others named place, no. She felt powerless in front of the others entities in the demonic heavens, because she was merely an initiate compared to the others.

So let's sum it up, shall we? Kiara, who got to the "demonic heavens", which is outside the world, realized that compared to the other peoples, she was just an insignificant beginner and as such, decided to return to the human dimension.

Also, do you have a citation to your claim that there was absolute no demon who was higher dimensional compared to Kiara?

I don't understand how the burden of proof falls on me when nothing indicates that there are beings of higher dimensionality than Kiara. Truly nothing indicates that.

Do you have a proof that the demonic heavens is a multidimensional plane that can hold multiples demons having different dimensionality to one another?
Do you have a proof that the demonic heavens is an infinite-layered plane?
Do you have a proof that there is an infinite number of planes above the demonic heavens?
Do you have any proof that the beings Kiara saw have a higher dimensionality compared to her when she states she was a novice (a word symbolizing the lack of skill/experience) compared to them?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

While I'm at it, I'll make this post a summary for any staff members that come across this thread, ontop of giving my own thoughts on the matter. I haven't given this discussion that thorough of a read, so, forgive me if I miss something and/or misunderstand things at points.

So: At first sight I agreed with the statement being High 1-B due to "no matter how transcendental one becomes, there will always be something ahead" being exemplified in the text by a character ascending to a higher-dimensional state.

However it seems the main objection against that constituting High 1-B is that "transcendental" is also used in-verse (And by the same character who goes on the above spiel) to denote anything vaguely superhuman, and with that additional context, the statement shifts to "You can always get stronger." So, in short: Just because ascending to a higher dimensions constitutes a new step in the "path to omnipotence," it doesn't mean all steps in that path are similar ascensions.

Yeah, that's pretty sound logic. If true, then I'm indeed of the opinion that the statement isn't High 1-B. That said, taking a look at the evidence used to justify the above point:

Anything that is out of the realm of the humans falls into "being transcendental". Such as not being able to age and resurrecting after death.

Two things:

1. That statement doesn't seem to make a direct correlation between the Vampires' agelessness/resurrective abilities and their "transcendence." Both are mentioned as traits held by them but it's not clear that the two are to be treated synonymously. Even with this said, it doesn't mean the "transcendence" there means "Infinitely more power," of course, but it overall makes the statement a pretty neutral one that I don't think serves as direct counterevidence for the claims made.

Granted, I'm receiving mixed messages here. From a quick read of this thread, people seem to claim Vampires are indeed 4-D beings, but looking at the profiles, they seem to be rated at Tier 9, with only the most powerful ones being Tier 1. So, which is it?

2. To clarify: What's the source of both statements exactly? I ask because here those lines were placed alongside ones from the purported High 1-B statement, and yet, looking at the scans of the original scenes, they seem to come from separate places.

Nope, if anything, Kiara shows that there is indeed a limit. Let's recap what happens, okay?

Kiara gains Higher-dimensional senses that made her "omnipotent" in the human dimension. Proof.
Upon using her senses, she ascended to "the seat of the demonic heavens"which I assume is a plane of existence. Proof.
Here, in that place, "the demonic heavens", she realized that she was nothing more than an "insignificant initiate". Proof.
After realizing that, she saw how minuscule (as an entity/human individual) she was and begin questioning her own worth. Proof.

So tell me, for someone who is supposed to prove an infinite number of dimensions within the universe, isn't it weird that she compare herself very finitely to her peers? "Initiate" doesn't mean that the other people are more powerful than her, but more so "more experienced than her". Even when she describes herself as "minuscule" it's not really what I would call myself in front of higher dimensional beings, it is still very much a finite comparison.

Same as above. While the conclusion, if correct, provides a sound reasoning for why the statement isn't really High 1-B, the logic used to justify it is not terribly convincing to me.

Most of all because "minuscule" and the like, strictly speaking, aren't really anything that runs in the contrary direction of an infinite superiority, since all the terms say, on their own, is "I am lesser than these things." I've seen several verses where terms like "vast," "great" or "immense" are used by humans to describe Tier 2 or Tier 1 entities. The most you could argue is perhaps that those sayings are understatements, but ultimately none of them are incorrect or even that strange of a thing to say.

---

As for the whether or not the purported hierarchy exists in the universe, I noticed this bit while skimming through the thread:

If this is all there is for the sides, I do have to say the "it applies somewhere, but we don't know where, so only the root scales" side is probably making more sense than the universe side. However I do admit that the whole thing about human perception or whatever only applying to the universe is correct, so if more evidence can be provided I can be swayed towards the idea it scales to the Universe.

So the argument, essentially, would be that the chain of transcendence is equated to human perception, and the universe then delineates the limit to said human perception, therefore meaning the chain exists in it. This seems like good enough reasoning, yeah. Much better than the other stuff I've been shown so far, at least.

 

[KingNanaya]

However it seems the main objection against that constituting High 1-B is that "transcendental" is also used in-verse (And by the same character who goes on the above spiel) to denote anything vaguely superhuman, and with that additional context, the statement shifts to "You can always get stronger." So, in short: Just because ascending to a higher dimensions constitutes a new step in the "path to omnipotence," it doesn't mean all steps in that path are similar ascensions.

Yeah, that's pretty sound logic. If true, then I'm indeed of the opinion that the statement isn't High 1-B.

I gave reasonings for why that isn't the case. That being that humans do gain 4D hax and resistances upon becoming vampires. There were other reasonings too, but I'm really tired from just waking up.

 

[KingNanaya]

Granted, I'm receiving mixed messages here. From a quick read of this thread, people seem to claim Vampires are indeed 4-D beings, but looking at the profiles, they seem to be rated at Tier 9, with only the most powerful ones being Tier 1. So, which is it?

The strongest Vampires in the verse are tier 1, the weakest are tier 9, but on average Vampires are tier 6.

2. To clarify: What's the source of both statements exactly? I ask because here those lines were placed alongside ones from the purported High 1-B statement, and yet, looking at the scans of the original scenes, they seem to come from separate places.

Yeah, I accidentally used machine translated scans for the Roa conversation, and then found a better translation afterwards that were fan translated, which I linked at the bottom of the OP. I hope that clears things up.

 

[SweetDao]

I know I'm going to cross boundaries here, so even if my comment may be deleted, I hope the information inside can at least be put inside the comment of a staff member or a knowledgeable member. I just want to be perfectly clear that this comment I'm writing now is not under anyone permission and as such I don't mind it being deleted, although I would prefer if it can stay since I'll not make any further argument, just clarifications.

1. That statement doesn't seem to make a direct correlation between the Vampires' agelessness/resurrective abilities and their "transcendence." Both are mentioned as traits held by them but it's not clear that the two are to be treated synonymously. Even with this said, it doesn't mean the "transcendence" there means "Infinitely more power," of course, but it overall makes the statement a pretty neutral one that I don't think serves as direct counterevidence for the claims made.

The whole scene is Roa on day 6 talking about immortality and how he doesn't seek a petty immortality but "infinity" of existence. The same thing he rants about in the true ending.

2. To clarify: What's the source of both statements exactly? I ask because here those lines were placed alongside ones from the purported High 1-B statement, and yet, looking at the scans of the original scenes, they seem to come from separate places.

I apologize if it could give the wrong idea, but I'm quite sure I've never said that both statements were from the exact same scene. I've put them in DeepL to compare them and show that they had the very same kanji for transcendent/transcendental.

The "vampires are transcendental" comes from the Day 6 of Ciel route, during the moment Roa rant about the "petty" immortality.
The "No matter how transcendental" comes from the final day/during the true ending (Ciel Route) when Roa rant about the limit of individual.

Most of all because "minuscule" and the like, strictly speaking, aren't really anything that runs in the contrary direction of an infinite superiority

"Minuscule" isn't a contradiction, but being an "insignificant initiate" is. One deals with a difference in physicality/existence, the other with the skills of oneself.

I would have wished to do a more detail answer, but at least I thank you for having read my comment and since I'm not even given permission in that precise case, I prefer to not stretch my message.

 

[Deagonx]

From a quick read of this thread, people seem to claim Vampires are indeed 4-D beings, but looking at the profiles, they seem to be rated at Tier 9, with only the most powerful ones being Tier 1. So, which is it?

For what it is worth, nothing in the verse says vampires are 4-D beings. The chain of logic is fairly convoluted, but it essentially goes like this:

1. Souls are called "higher dimensional"
2. Servants are materialized souls, and are powered by consuming human souls therefore are higher dimensional
3. Magic can harm servants, souls have magic energy, therefore magic is higher dimensional
4. Vampires can harm servants, therefore they are higher dimensional.

Of course, I think this is a case of trying to have your cake and eat it too. They're saying that vampires are called transcendental in the same way as the OP statement, but this isn't a contradiction because vampires are higher dimensional (which is what they claim the original statement is describing -- higher dimensionality). Even if that's true, the conclusion we would be left with is that this form of higher dimensionality isn't qualitatively superior, because as you point out, vampires and servants range anywhere from Tier 9 to Tier 6 with only a couple being extremely high. Which means the OP's statement can't be assumed to refer to higher infinities.

 

[KingNanaya]

They're saying that vampires are called transcendental in the same way as the OP statement

I'm not. Stop misrepresenting my argument. nothing in this CRT is claiming that Vampires are high 1-B. no one is claiming that any 4D hax that any character has are high 1-B. I've only been saying that there is 4D, and then higher. 6-8D, and then higher. 9D, and then higher. and no matter how high it goes, there will be something higher than them. I'm only trying to establish a high 1-B hierarchy of some sort, and that's it. This is only for the root and potentially the universe. that is all.

 

[Deagonx]

I'm not. Stop misrepresenting my argument. nothing in this CRT is claiming that Vampires are high 1-B

I feel like you should take your own advice. I never said someone was claiming vampires are High 1-B. The argument for the OP is that it describes infinite layers of transcendence, which you claim refers to qualitatively superior higher dimensions, therefore it's allegedly High 1-B. The response to the counter-argument that the word for "transcendent" was also used for vampires was met with the counter-claim that vampires are higher-dimensional as well, so it's natural for them to be called transcendent.

Vampires would only be High 1-B under this framework if we claimed they transcended infinite layers, no one claimed that and I am not saying you did. My point is that you're saying this "transcendence" refers to QS higher dimensions in both the OP statement and for vampires because vampires are 4-D. However, if that were the case, then we'd simply be forced to conclude that these layers/dimensions aren't higher infinities, because vampires do not have any qualitatively superiority by default. Some do, but it's not a matter of course for vampires despite your claim that they are 4-D by default due to being able to harm servants.

I didn't misrepresent your argument, you misunderstood mine.

 

[KingNanaya]

My point is that you're saying this "transcendence" refers to QS higher dimensions in both the OP statement and for vampires because vampires are 4-D.

no, I'm not. I'm claiming that since he said "transcend" "higher dimensions" and "no end" in the same scan, Cited a person who perceive them despite not being on their level, and then went on to talk about how small and insignificant she was. and then mentioned on top of that the "infinitely expanding universe". I never even mentioned Vampires in the first place. But they were brought up, and so I talked about them. I mentioned that humans gain 4D Hax upon becoming vampires, and getting stronger through gaining Mystery, which is another power system. I brought up the Nasu thread where it changed the justification for the Outer Gods to a different one that didn't change the tiers in any way. which you went in and accepted btw. I brought up Roa's past and how he reincarnates. I have so many other justifications other than "Vampires have 4D hax", yet that's the part you focus on the most.

However, if that were the case, then we'd simply be forced to conclude that these layers/dimensions aren't higher infinities, because vampires do not have any qualitatively superiority by default. Some do, but it's not a matter of course for vampires despite your claim that they are 4-D by default due to being able to harm servants.

You haven't given any proof of that at all. I've mentioned that Vampires can only be harmed by stuff of equal or higher potency, and anything else gets nulled. I even sent the CRT where it was accepted. You just keep saying no without any valid argument or evidence.

I feel like you should take your own advice. I never said someone was claiming vampires are High 1-B.

I didn't misrepresent your argument, you misunderstood mine.

Ok, I can admit, I did misunderstand parts of your argument, but calling my actions deceptive, saying I'm ignoring the information given in the scans, and then doubling down on that would 100% be misrepresenting my argument.

 

[Deagonx]

I have so many other justifications other than "Vampires have 4D hax", yet that's the part you focus on the most.

I was focusing on that part because it was your response to what I consider a convincing counter-argument.

You haven't given any proof of that at all. I've mentioned that Vampires can only be harmed by stuff of equal or higher potency, and anything else gets nulled. I even sent the CRT where it was accepted. You just keep saying no without any valid argument or evidence.

Nanaya, I don't see how this discussion can make any forward progress if you aren't actually reading my arguments. I'm going to explain this once more, in a very structured way so that there is no misunderstanding.

1. Roa said no matter how transcendent we become there's always a higher level, suggesting there are an infinite amount of higher levels.
2. You claim that these higher levels are higher dimensions (qualitatively superior), so infinitely many would be High 1-B
3. SweetDao pointed out that "transcendent" was also used for describing vampires by Roa, so we shouldn't interpret "transcendent" to mean higher dimensions.
4. Your counter-argument was that vampires are 4-D because they can harm servants, who are materialized souls, which are called higher dimensional.
5. Therefore, the term "transcendent" when used for vampires is also referring to higher dimensions, eliminating the contradiction in using the term for both.
6. However, vampires do not have qualitative superiority, as evidenced by the fact that many of them are tier 9 to 6.
7. Therefore, the term "transcendent" cannot refer to qualitative superiority.

In a nutshell, if both of Roa's statements about vampires and the path to omnipotence use the word "transcendent" and your counter-argument was that they refer to the same type of transcendence because vampires are higher-dimensional, then these higher dimensions do not have qualitative superiority because vampires do not have qualitative superiority.

 

[Tdjwo]

I'm beginning to sense that the arguments against the OP are missing a key detail.

It doesn't matter when or where the word "transcendent" has been used. As long as the context refers to either "higher dimensions" or just the generic vampire physiology, then the context becomes clear. The word "transcendent" has been used multiple times for multiple contexts, so instead of us sticking to just one interpretation of the word, why don't we just understand the context behind each sentence?

The scan @SweetDao showed regarding vampires being "transcendent" in a vampiric likeness obviously doesn't refer to higher dimensions. That is pretty clear. Meanwhile, the word "transcendent" used by the OP to argue High 1B universe explicitly mentions the word "dimensions" and "higher dimensional" consecutively in one instance.

The context in this case, refers to higher dimensions and an endless amount of them based on "no matter how many levels we ascend." So rather than going back and forth on this, simply try to understand the context on how the transcendent word is being used rather than insisting that the word means only one thing.

 

[Deagonx]

I understand the argument that we should consider "transcendent" as having been used in different ways, but to me this seems like backpedaling. When it was initially brought up that vampires were transcendent, the immediate counter-argument was "they're 4-D, so it's the same thing and not a contradiction." And now that the allegedly 4-D nature of vampires is serving as an inconvenience to the High 1-B tiering of the original statement, now we want to say they're being used differently.

Personally, that's a bit too convenient for my liking. The same character said both statements, it was the exact same kanji and everything. If we definitively agree -- no matter how we get there -- that it isn't being used for higher infinities in regard to vampires, then I wager it most likely isn't being used for higher infinities with regard to Roa's first statement. Most likely the "higher levels on the path to omnipotence" are not spatial dimensions or layers of infinity, they're just referring to higher quantities of power.

That's fairly consistent in the series. When Noel became a dead apostle she was also called transcendental.

 

[KingNanaya]

3. SweetDao pointed out that "transcendent" was also used for describing vampires by Roa, so we shouldn't interpret "transcendent" to mean higher dimensions.
4. Your counter-argument was that vampires are 4-D because they can harm servants, who are materialized souls, which are called higher dimensional.
5. Therefore, the term "transcendent" when used for vampires is also referring to higher dimensions, eliminating the contradiction in using the term for both.

That is correct, yes.

5. Therefore, the term "transcendent" when used for vampires is also referring to higher dimensions, eliminating the contradiction in using the term for both.
6. However, vampires do not have qualitative superiority, as evidenced by the fact that many of them are tier 9 to 6.
7. Therefore, the term "transcendent" cannot refer to qualitative superiority.

What does a character's tier have anything to do with higher dimensional hax? We don't even tier hax, so that point makes no sense. and there are only 2(?) tier 9 characters that are vampires, because again, they're the weakest. They are characters who had just become vampires, and they both fought someone with 1-A hax. you can see for yourself that every other vampire we have profiles for are either tier 6 or tier 1. I'm not sure what you mean by "there isn't any qualitative superiority" when I've shown that 3D characters and weapons don't do anything, but 4D conceptual weapons and the like can. Others have shown scans of qualitative superiority that are just shown in the verse as a whole, along with explicit mentions of spatial dimensions which Executor even clarified.

 

[Deagonx]

What does a character's tier have anything to do with higher dimensional hax?

If you are arguing that a character is 4-D, and that this higher dimensionality is qualitative superiority, then they must be Tier 2 at a minimum.

If the word "transcendent" doesn't refer to higher dimensionality with vampires, then it likely doesn't for Roa's other statement. If it does, then it likely doesn't refer to qualitative superiority because vampires don't have QS.

I'm not sure what you mean by "there isn't any qualitative superiority" when I've shown that 3D characters and weapons don't do anything, but 4D conceptual weapons and the like can.

That's not even true? Normal human weapons can and have killed vampires in Nasuverse. You don't need "4D conceptual weapons."

 

[KingNanaya]

I understand the argument that we should consider "transcendent" as having been used in different ways, but to me this seems like backpedaling. When it was initially brought up that vampires were transcendent, the immediate counter-argument was "they're 4-D, so it's the same thing and not a contradiction." And now that the allegedly 4-D nature of vampires is serving as an inconvenience to the High 1-B tiering of the original statement, now we want to say they're being used differently.

no, that is not the case. I haven't changed my opinion on the 4D hax that vampires are shown to have.

Most likely the "higher levels on the path to omnipotence" are not spatial dimensions or layers of infinity, they're just referring to higher quantities of power.

yes, so lets completely ignore the fact that he said dimensions, all other proof of QS, and stick to a singular interpretation that falls apart the more you look at the wider context of the verse. He says dimensions. We can look back and see what dimensions are and how the word is used. He says higher dimensions. we can look through at what higher dimensions are in the verse and if they have QS. He says infinite/no end. We can look through and see how the term infinite is used and if it's countable or uncountable. As soon as we do, what do we see? Dimensions are spatial dimensions. Higher dimensions have QS. And infinite is implied to be uncountable.

If you are arguing that a character is 4-D, and that this higher dimensionality is qualitative superiority, then they must be Tier 2 at a minimum.

we don't tier hax

That's not even true? Normal human weapons can and have killed vampires in Nasuverse. You don't need "4D conceptual weapons."

Shiki has 1-A Existence erasure. Ciel is very far from normal and works with the church. Mages are Mages. The Church uses 4D conceptual weapons. when has a regular human been able to fight a vampire ever?

 

[Deagonx]

yes, so lets completely ignore the fact that he said dimensions, all other proof of QS, and stick to a singular interpretation that falls apart the more you look at the wider context of the verse. He says dimensions. We can look back and see what dimensions are and how the word is used. He says higher dimensions. we can look through at what higher dimensions are in the verse and if they have QS. He says infinite/no end.

We can see numerous instances in TYPE-MOON where higher dimensions do not have QS, so why would we assume in this instance that it is referring to QS when the same language was used for vampires, who don't?

when has a regular human been able to fight a vampire ever?

Kiritsugu literally killed a plane full of vampires with a rocket launcher. Shirley also asked Kiritsugu to kill her with a silver knife.

The only reason why higher level vampires can't be killed by humans with normal weapons is because their stats are too great. Naruto couldn't be killed with normal human weapons either, but not because of some "hax" ability.

We're also overlooking the fact that nothing in the verse even says any of this about vampires. This is all ad-hoc extrapolation.

 

[KingNanaya]

We can see numerous instances in TYPE-MOON where higher dimensions do not have QS, so why would we assume in this instance that it is referring to QS when the same language was used for vampires, who don't?

it's not that they don't. it's that you believe they don't.

Kiritsugu literally killed a plane full of vampires with a rocket launcher. Shirley also asked Kiritsugu to kill her with a silver knife.

The Dead and Dead Apostles are different. The Dead Apostle was killed with Mage Craft. The Dead are just Zombies. as we've seen in the original tsukihime, they are quite literally just walking corpses.

 

[Deagonx]

it's not that they don't. it's that you believe they don't.

They quite literally don't. If souls had qualitative superiority, one wouldn't need to collect hundreds of souls to acquire Tier 6 levels of energy, even one would provide infinitely more than that.

The Dead and Dead Apostles are different. The Dead Apostle was killed with Mage Craft. The Dead are just Zombies. as we've seen in the original tsukihime, they are quite literally just walking corpses.

Ghouls are vampires. Dead Apostles are just a higher level of vampire than Ghouls.

Vampires [Term]
Monsters that suck human blood. Refers mostly to the Dead Apostles, or those that have become bloodsuckers because of them.

After a long enough period of time, Ghouls evolve into Dead Apostles. They don't gain a spatial dimension or any such nonsense, they're just faster and stronger. Besides that, Shirley was a dead apostle and she could have been killed with a knife.

 

[KingNanaya]

They quite literally don't. If souls had qualitative superiority, one wouldn't need to collect hundreds of souls to acquire Tier 6 levels of energy, even one would provide infinitely more than that.

Are you talking about Chaos? The man who fused whole living animals with himself, and not just their souls? The one that got defeated by 1-A existence erasure? The one that claimed that in order to kill all of "him" at once, you would need to hit him with the force of a continent? The one that claimed to only be harmed by the churches weapons and the like?

Ghouls are vampires. Dead Apostles are just a higher level of vampire than Ghouls.

Vampires [Term]
Monsters that suck human blood. Refers mostly to the Dead Apostles, or those that have become bloodsuckers because of them.

The Dead are the traditional Familiars of the Dead Apostles.

They are created in the original Tsukihime continuity when a Vampire's victim who had their blood sucked and then received some of the Vampire's own blood, does not manage to become a Ghoul.

They are mindless and soulless puppets that are 100% controlled by their creator, so they are not proper members of the Blood-Sucking Species.

As such, they can be programmed and manipulated to follow a fixed route or to do other things. They deceive death by eating the flesh of their victims, in order to maintain their bodies, but over half of the absorbed energy is sent to their master. They also won't leave a trace when they get destroyed, as their bodies turn into ash.

In the Tsukihime Remake continuity, The Dead represent the slave caste in vampiric society (Remake) a classification for the Stages I-III of the Vampire curse and are seen, from the sire's point of view, as "objects". These slaves are completely bound to their sire and return to being corpses when their sire gets destroyed or if the sire doesn't need them anymore.

uh huh, yeah, ok. You keep on saying that I'm claiming that vampires gain an additional, which is not what I'm saying at all. I've said this multiple times that vampires gain 4D hax and resistances. These are not the same thing. this is why I keep saying that their tier has no relevancy. We don't tier hax. There's a thread that's arguing that it should be listed, but even then, it's only going to be for existence erasure. Otherwise, Shiki would have his existence erasure on his profile as 1-A, Aoko would have her magic effects as Low 1-C, possibly 1-C, and Roa would have 1-A durability.

 

[Deagonx]

Are you talking about Chaos? The man who fused whole living animals with himself, and not just their souls? The one that got defeated by 1-A existence erasure? The one that claimed that in order to kill all of "him" at once, you would need to hit him with the force of a continent? The one that claimed to only be harmed by the churches weapons and the like?

This reads like you're responding to the wrong comment or something. I said: If souls had qualitative superiority, one wouldn't need to collect hundreds of souls to acquire Tier 6 levels of energy

What does any of what you just said have to do with that, or counter what I just argued? Why did you think I was referring to Chaos when nothing I said was remotely related to him?

uh huh, yeah, ok.

Yes, thank you for proving my point. The Dead represent the slave caste in vampiric society a classification for the Stages I-III of the Vampire curse

Ghouls are an earlier stage of the vampire curse, and evolve into Dead Apostles. They are vampires, and they have been killed with human weapons. And again, even Shirley, a dead apostle, was capable of being killed by a human with a normal weapon, so trying to focus on the "Ghoul" aspect wouldn't help either way.

And again, none of what you're saying is in the verse. There's not a single scan that suggests Vampires "gain 4d hax and resistances."

I've said this multiple times that vampires gain 4D hax and resistances. These are not the same thing. this is why I keep saying that their tier has no relevancy. We don't tier hax.

So you're saying vampires do not have qualitative superiority despite being called higher dimensional? Then we share the same view. My point is, if higher dimensionality doesn't grant a higher infinite level of power, then the statement in the OP quite definitively isn't High 1-B.

 

[Deagonx]

@Marshadow29, this is a staff discussion thread, you cannot comment here without permission.

 

[KingNanaya]

What does any of what you just said have to do with that, or counter what I just argued?

I asked you a question. it wasn't rhetorical. were you referring to Chaos or not?

Yes, thank you for proving my point. The Dead represent the slave caste in vampiric society a classification for the Stages I-III of the Vampire curse

Ghouls are an earlier stage of the vampire curse, and evolve into Dead Apostles. They are vampires, and they have been killed with human weapons.

Quit putting words in my mouth. Ghouls and The Dead are different. This is how they are created:

They are created in the original Tsukihime continuity when a Vampire's victim who had their blood sucked and then received some of the Vampire's own blood, does not manage to become a Ghoul.

This is what they represent:

In the Tsukihime Remake continuity, The Dead represent the slave caste in vampiric society (Remake) a classification for the Stages I-III of the Vampire curse and are seen, from the sire's point of view, as "objects". These slaves are completely bound to their sire and return to being corpses when their sire gets destroyed or if the sire doesn't need them anymore.

So you're saying vampires do not have qualitative superiority despite being called higher dimensional?

No. I am saying that vampires gain 4D hax and resistances. and while that doesn't scale to AP, there is some type of dimensional difference in their capabilities post transformation. the hax are 4D, but their AP isn't.

 

[KingNanaya]

@Marshadow29, this is a staff discussion thread, you cannot comment here without permission.

he's also topic banned until tomorrow, I believe. I'm not sure because of the potential time zone difference, but it's 2:05 PM for me.

 

[Deagonx]

I asked you a question. it wasn't rhetorical. were you referring to Chaos or not?

Obviously not. Why did you think I was referring to Chaos? Nothing I said remotely implicated him in any way. Do you have a response to my argument? All you've said thus far was a weird monologue about a character I never brought up.

Quit putting words in my mouth. Ghouls and The Dead are different. This is how they are created:

Okay. The ones on the plane were Ghouls. So this is settled then?

No. I am saying that vampires gain 4D hax and resistances. and while that doesn't scale to AP, there is some type of dimensional difference in their capabilities post transformation. the hax are 4D, but their AP isn't.

Then they don't have qualitative superiority. I'll also point out there's no evidence in the entire verse of them having 4-D hax.

 

[KingNanaya]

Obviously not. Why did you think I was referring to Chaos? Nothing I said remotely implicated him in any way. Do you have a response to my argument? All you've said thus far was a weird monologue about a character I never brought up.

what do you mean "obviously not"? He merged himself with over 600 different animals. along with the fact that I have tsukihime on the brain, you can understand how someone could believe you're referring to him. Just be clear with your wording next time. it's not that deep.

Okay. The ones on the plane were Ghouls. So this is settled then?

I feel that they more were like The Dead. I feel as if Ghouls are more like what Shirly had turned into. she was feral, but by no means was she a soulless puppet only following orders. and she clearly wasn't a Dead apostle, since she had no control over her bloodlust.

Then they don't have qualitative superiority. I'll also point out there's no evidence in the entire verse of them having 4-D hax.

make a CRT then. anything else you'd like to share with the class?

 

[KingNanaya]

again, it's very clear that neither one of us will change the other's mind. So instead of cluttering the thread with "I'm right and you're wrong" That is coming from the both us and let staff decide who's right or wrong

 

[Deagonx]

what do you mean "obviously not"? He merged himself with over 600 different animals. along with the fact that I have tsukihime on the brain, you can understand how someone could believe you're referring to him. Just be clear with your wording next time. it's not that deep.

I never mentioned merging with animals. Nothing I said remotely referred to Chaos.

I said "If souls had qualitative superiority, one wouldn't need to collect hundreds of souls to acquire Tier 6 levels of energy, even one would provide infinitely more than that."

Nothing about animals, or chaos. Do you have a response to my argument aside from this non-sequitur monologue about a character I never mentioned?

I feel that they more were like The Dead. I feel as if Ghouls are more like what Shirly had turned into. she was feral, but by no means was she a soulless puppet only following orders. and she clearly wasn't a Dead apostle, since she had no control over her bloodlust.

You "feel like?" Shirley was quite explicitly a Dead Apostle, the vampires on the air plane were quite explicitly Ghouls. Shirley wasn't feral, ghouls aren't capable of human speech or coherent thought. Her begging Kiritusgu to kill her means she wasn't a ghoul. She was also called a Dead Apostle literally in the text itself.

Nonsense. Someone who cannot control the vampiric urges and becomes a Dead Apostle is a failure... I told Shirley this a long time ago. Looks like the results of this experiment isn’t as good as I thought it’d be.

And the beings on the plane were said to be ghouls:

I was the only one who didn’t get bitten. All passengers and crew, all 300 of them, perished and became Ghouls.

again, it's very clear that neither one of us will change the other's mind. So instead of cluttering the thread with "I'm right and you're wrong" That is coming from the both us and let staff decide who's right or wrong

Why wouldn't you change your mind? You just said the people on the plane weren't ghouls, and you're definitively wrong, and you said Shirley wasn't a dead apostle and that's definitively wrong. You haven't argued against my earlier argument, you just brought up some random character out of nowhere, and your only response to the fact that your claim of Vampires having 4-D hax has no evidence behind it was just "well make a CRT."

It doesn't even seem as though you have an argument, as two of my three points were avoided entirely and the last point you simply said you "feel like" the text itself is wrong about those humans being turned into ghouls or Shirley being a dead apostle. You just said you thought she was a ghoul which shows you aren't event familiar with the basic properties of ghouls, which is that they aren't capable of thought or speech. She was a Dead Apostle, that much is clear.

 

[KingNanaya]

Nothing I said remotely referred to Chaos.

because you mentioned "hundreds of souls", so of course he came up in my mind, since his main characteristic is having 666 beasts inside of him. Again, who were you talking about?

You "feel like?" Shirley was quite explicitly a Dead Apostle, the vampires on the air plane were quite explicitly Ghouls. Shirley wasn't feral, ghouls aren't capable of human speech or coherent thought. Her begging Kiritusgu to kill her means she wasn't a ghoul. She was also called a Dead Apostle literally in the text itself.

Ghouls, akin to shambling corpses that instinctively seek blood, meaning they are lower-tier Familiars of a Vampire that have been given some of that Vampire's immortal blood. When killed, they disintegrate into dust.

seems like I was wrong about it. but even then, ghouls aren't vampires. they are considered familiars. it's been some time since I've watched Fate/Zero, so it's very possible I misremembered a lot of things. especially with everything going on in my life at the time. so even though I did mess up in remembering, looking through the information again, nothing changes.

Nonsense. Someone who cannot control the vampiric urges and becomes a Dead Apostle is a failure... I told Shirley this a long time ago. Looks like the results of this experiment isn’t as good as I thought it’d be.

Also, I want to add that Kiritsugu never killed Shirly. He ran to get the priest. And Shirly isn't a good source of information, or anything, considering what she thought would happen if she turned into a Dead Apostle, and being completely wrong.

Why wouldn't you change your mind?

because I think you're wrong. do I need to say more? I've already admitted that you had the right information in places, but I still believe that you are wrong over all. You believe that I've wrong over all. instead of the back and forth over us saying the other is wrong, since we already have the evidence and our points here, just let other staff decide.

your only response to the fact that your claim of Vampires having 4-D hax has no evidence behind it was just "well make a CRT."

because you should. it's on the profiles, so do it if you have a problem with it. you can't do it now since we have 4 Nasu CRT's right now, but do it. this is what you're supposed to do, right? make a CRT for the stuff you disagree with? So let's either agree to disagree or work on a compromise and be productive.

 

[KingNanaya]

also, I'm gonna be gone for the next few hours. so if you really want to continue this, feel free to DM me on discord, because I won't respond to your posts here anymore.

 

[Deagonx]

because you mentioned "hundreds of souls", so of course he came up in my mind, since his main characteristic is having 666 beasts inside of him. Again, who were you talking about?

I wasn't talking about any specific character, I was talked about servants in general absorbing souls for power despite them being Tier 6 or lower.

seems like I was wrong about it. but even then, ghouls aren't vampires. they are considered familiars.

Okay, again, this is objectively wrong. They are explicitly titled "Vampire: Rank II." Dead Apostles are Rank IV.

Also, I want to add that Kiritsugu never killed Shirly. He ran to get the priest. And Shirly isn't a good source of information, or anything, considering what she thought would happen if she turned into a Dead Apostle, and being completely wrong.

It's irrelevant, the story very clearly tells us that Kiritsugu could have killed her. This was the narration itself that told us this, not a character:

If the boy had listened to Shirley's supplication and took the courage to plunge the silver white short sword into the chest of the girl he loved the most, then this present tragedy would not have happened.

because I think you're wrong. do I need to say more? I've already admitted that you had the right information in places, but I still believe that you are wrong over all

The fact that your conclusion never changes despite you being proven wrong on multiple points is rather suspect to me.

because you should. it's on the profiles, so do it if you have a problem with it. you can't do it now since we have 4 Nasu CRT's right now, but do it. this is what you're supposed to do, right? make a CRT for the stuff you disagree with? So let's either agree to disagree or work on a compromise and be productive.

"Make a CRT" is not a counter-argument. They do not have 4-D hax or resistances, and you've published no evidence of that whatsoever nor even made an argument for it.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

BUMP

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

@Deagonx This argument between you two seems to be going nowhere. Let's just see what the other staff have to say.
@Antvasima @AKM sama @DontTalkDT @DarkDragonMedeus @Mr._Bambu @Celestial_Pegasus @Andytrenom @Wokistan @Ultima_Reality @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @GyroNutz @Firestorm808 @Everything12 @Maverick_Zero_X @Crabwhale @Just_a_Random_Butler @Agnaa

 

[KingNanaya]

Listen, this thread has been accepted since Sunday. It's been almost a week. It's 4-1 in favor. I'm gonna request the thread be closed.

 

[Deagonx]

No, it has not. There's no agreement about where the statement scales, and still a great deal of uncertainty about whether or not it is a legitimately High 1-B statement. Ultima is undecided, Firestorm and I both disagree, and DDM is only "leaning" towards agree. This revision should not be applied to anything.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

SweetDao's sent me some information that appears to be pertinent to the topic of discussion, in private. I would hold off for a bit until I've gone through it. Hopefully it won't take too long.

 

[KingNanaya]

Firestorm and I both disagree

no. firestorm made 3 comments, none of which were a vote.

and still a great deal of uncertainty about whether or not it is a legitimately High 1-B statement.

yes, from you.

DDM is only "leaning" towards agree.

Agree for now.