Where Roa's High 1-B Statement Applies, 6 doors Translation, and Where They Both Fit

[SweetDao]

As an example to prove his point, he cites Kiara becoming a demon to reach a higher dimension and become omnipotent/almighty within the human dimensions, only to learn how insignificant she is within the Demonic Heavens.

I got permission from Deagonx.

Yes, that's the point. Roa showed that the struggle on earth is the same in another realm. Characters on the same dimensionality as Kiara dwarfed her in strength, nothing implies that somehow there exists an infinite number of realms that dwarfed her. Implying that he meant "Yeah actually there exists an infinite number of dimensions" is a massive stretch. You render Roa's monologue as nothing more than "infinite dimensions exist" when it wasn't even the point he was trying to make.

Moreover, Roa uses the word transcendent to deal with everything regarding superhuman nature. He does so to define vampires by their abilities to not age and resurrect after death. If someone needs the actual scene, here it is. Even if we could assume that he's just stating what everyone thinks and not his own opinion during that scene, he doesn't deny the word itself. The point is more that "transcendent" can mean something entirely different and more down to earth than higher-dimensionality. So yeah, "no matter how transcendent" means "no matter how superhuman you are", which goes in tandem with the fact that the characters dwarfing Kiara aren't even higher-dimensional compared to her.

 

[KingNanaya]

gonna respond in the morning. my head hurt and I've run into some family problems

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.

 

[KingNanaya]

Characters on the same dimensionality as Kiara dwarfed her in strength

no, they were of a higher dimensionality than her

Implying that he meant "Yeah actually there exists an infinite number of dimensions" is a massive stretch. You render Roa's monologue as nothing more than "infinite dimensions exist" when it wasn't even the point he was trying to make.

Roa was talking about why he reincarnates. He reincarnates using the root, which is 1-A. his method of reincarnation relies completely on higher dimensions.

Moreover, Roa uses the word transcendent to deal with everything regarding superhuman nature. He does so to define vampires by their abilities to not age and resurrect after death. If someone needs the actual scene, here it is. Even if we could assume that he's just stating what everyone thinks and not his own opinion during that scene, he doesn't deny the word itself. The point is more that "transcendent" can mean something entirely different and more down to earth than higher-dimensionality.

Vampires are higher dimensional in some fashion. Even though they are, they have so many flaws that it makes their existence more flawed than being human/3D. Despite certain advantages, there are so many more disadvantages. Especially their immortality, as the Earth is constantly trying to erase them from existence, thus the need to drink blood. Roa knows this firsthand because he himself is a Vampire. Implying that he was solely speaking on their physical strength and characteristics is a stretch considering the knowledge that we have.

 

[Executor_N0]

It never says they are spatial? In fact the wording suggests otherwise. If he is dropped back into his original dimension, singular, that would suggest it is referring to a realm. We occupy several spatial dimensions simultaneously.

Calling the number of dimensional axes just "X dimension" is fairly common in fiction. Anyway, in Japanese there's no direct difference between "third dimension" and "three dimensional", it's the same wording "三次元" (Sanjigen). In Japanese there's no standard of "singular, plural, and generic" for words themselves unless very specific, so most of the time it can refer to anything from singular to plural. In fact it's the very reason why without much context we can either translate "無限次元" (Mugen jigen) as both Infinite Dimension and Infinite DImensional, in Japanese it can refer to both things.

So in that scan, the most likely it was written in the raws is "三次元" (Sanjigen), which refers to Three Dimensional generically.

 

[KingNanaya]

Calling the number of dimensional axes just "X dimension" is fairly common in fiction. Anyway, in Japanese there's no direct difference between "third dimension" and "three dimensional", it's the same wording "三次元" (Sanjigen). In Japanese there's no standard of "singular, plural, and generic" for words themselves unless very specific, so most of the time it can refer to anything from singular to plural. In fact it's the very reason why without much context we can either translate "無限次元" (Mugen jigen) as both Infinite Dimension and Infinite DImensional, in Japanese it can refer to both things.

So in that scan, the most likely it was written in the raws is "三次元" (Sanjigen), which refers to Three Dimensional generically.

thank you very much

 

[Deagonx]

no, they were of a higher dimensionality than her

Roa was talking about why he reincarnates. He reincarnates using the root, which is 1-A. his method of reincarnation relies completely on higher dimensions.

Vampires are higher dimensional in some fashion. Even though they are, they have so many flaws that it makes their existence more flawed than being human/3D. Despite certain advantages, there are so many more disadvantages. Especially their immortality, as the Earth is constantly trying to erase them from existence, thus the need to drink blood. Roa knows this firsthand because he himself is a Vampire. Implying that he was solely speaking on their physical strength and characteristics is a stretch considering the knowledge that we have.

You should provide scans for these claims, like SweetDao did.

 

[KingNanaya]

You should provide scans for these claims, like SweetDao did.

for what? the root being 1-A? Roa's soul being in the root? the beings Kiara interacting with being higher dimensional?
the Roa stuff is on the profile

Existence Erasure and Absorption (His soul can pass through the Swirl Of The Root without being erased or absorbed)

the Kiara stuff is in the OP, and the root has it's own profile. what did I say that warranted the need for me to get extra scans?

 

[Deagonx]

for what? the root being 1-A? Roa's soul being in the root? the beings Kiara interacting with being higher dimensional?
the Roa stuff is on the profile

the Kiara stuff is in the OP, and the root has it's own profile. what did I say that warranted the need for me to get extra scans?

These claims:

"Everyone who dwarfs Kiara in strength has a higher dimensionality than her"
"Roa's method of reincarnation relies on higher dimensions."
"Vampires are higher dimensional."

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

There's this temporarily closed staff thread about the Root's 1-A tier. Does that affect the "infinite dimensions" thing?

 

[KingNanaya]

"Everyone who dwarfs Kiara in strength has a higher dimensionality than her"

in the OP

"Roa's method of reincarnation relies on higher dimensions."

posted above

"Vampires are higher dimensional."

it might take me a while, but I can get it. I can tell you at least the basic premise of the scans before I get them. it was Arcueid talking to Shiki about vampires, saying that only stuff that rivals the church's conceptual weapons are able to harm them. this is reinforced when Arcueid asks Shiki how he killed her the first time, and in Fate/Zero when the church and the mages association exterminate a village that had turned completely into vampires. Again, I can get all of these, it will just take some time

 

[KingNanaya]

There's this temporarily closed staff thread about the Root's 1-A tier. Does that affect the "infinite dimensions" thing?

no, it does not

 

[Deagonx]

in the OP

Nothing in the OP says that.

posted above

Where? I don't see anything suggesting that Roa is using higher spatial dimensions to reincarnate. Are you just saying that he's using the root? Because if so, you should just say the root. That doesn't mean that spatial dimensions are specifically implicated in the reincarnation process which is what you implied.

it was Arcueid talking to Shiki about vampires, saying that only stuff that rivals the church's conceptual weapons are able to harm them. this is reinforced when Arcueid asks Shiki how he killed her the first time, and in Fate/Zero when the church and the mages association exterminate a village that had turned completely into vampires. Again, I can get all of these, it will just take some time

I don't see how that suggests they have higher spatial dimensionality?

 

[KingNanaya]

Nothing in the OP says that.

the whole gaining higher dimensional sight along with power over the one she was already in implies that the beings she interacted with are of a higher dimensionality.

Where? I don't see anything suggesting that Roa is using higher spatial dimensions to reincarnate. Are you just saying that he's using the root? Because if so, you should just say the root. That doesn't mean that spatial dimensions are specifically implicated in the reincarnation process which is what you implied.

it would need to be, if he's interacting with a 1-A structure

I don't see how that suggests they have higher spatial dimensionality?

we accept magecraft as 4D. I can't find the original CRT, but I found a Q&A thread talking about it here.

 

[Deagonx]

the whole gaining higher dimensional sight along with power over the one she was already in implies that the beings she interacted with are of a higher dimensionality.

I don't see any indication that those beings had an additional spatial dimension, and I think this is quite a stretch.

it would need to be, if he's interacting with a 1-A structure

You're not really hearing me. Regardless of whether the Root, as a whole, has some sort of additional spatial thing going on, the fact remains that Roa reincarnating through the root does not inherently make spatial dimensions pertinent to the reincarnation process and it's rather deceptive to portray it that way.

we accept magecraft as 4D. I can't find the original CRT, but I found a Q&A thread talking about it here.

If magecraft were 4D that should just be pretty concrete proof that higher dimensions in Nasu do not have qualitative superiority, because even Tier 6 servants are stronger than the vast majority of mages.

 

[KingNanaya]

I don't see any indication that those beings had an additional spatial dimension, and I think this is quite a stretch.

ok

You're not really hearing me. Regardless of whether the Root, as a whole, has some sort of additional spatial thing going on, the fact remains that Roa reincarnating through the root does not inherently make spatial dimensions pertinent to the reincarnation process and it's rather deceptive to portray it that way.

I don't understand how it's deceptive at all. if he's interacting with a 1-A structure then I believe that he should have some amount of knowledge of spatial dimensions. it's not like I'm stating a concrete fact. I'm stating my opinion based on evidence given to me. He uses the root to reincarnate, he would need to interact with it in order to do so. if were making the least amount of assumptions, then it would be more accurate to assume he has knowledge on higher dimensions. again, that's just my thought process.

If magecraft were 4D that should just be pretty concrete proof that higher dimensions in Nasu do not have qualitative superiority, because even Tier 6 servants are stronger than the vast majority of mages.

they're stronger because Mystery and servants are also 4D.

 

[Deagonx]

I don't understand how it's deceptive at all.

Because there's no information that tells us that the reincarnation process involves spatial dimensions. You're using very specific wording to make it sound like that, but none of the scans and no info from the verse actually makes it sound like that. It's just "the root is involved" which tells us literally nothing about the specific mechanism for reincarnation, and whether or not spatial dimensionality is implicated.

they're stronger because Mystery and servants are also 4D.

If Servants are 4-D then higher dimensionality very concretely doesn't grant qualitative superiority in the verse, as servants are very consistently tier 6.

 

[KingNanaya]

Because there's no information that tells us that the reincarnation process involves spatial dimensions. You're using vary specific working to make it sound like that, but none of the scans and no info from the verse actually makes it sound like that. It's just "the root is involved" which tells us literally nothing about the specific mechanism for reincarnation, and whether or not spatial dimensionality is implicated.

ok

If Servants are 4-D then higher dimensionality very concretely doesn't grant qualitative superiority in the verse, as servants are very consistently tier 6.

why does dimensionality apply to AP if they aren't tier 1? Again, servants have more mystery then mages, which is why they're stronger. every single time it's mentioned that a Servant is going to fight a mage, they emphasize that it would be suicide. Servants have 4D invulnerability, which Vampires are able to bypass, and magecraft, along with the church's weapons, are some of the only things able to kill Vampires or Servants. Vampires and Servants are able to fight and kill each other just fine. Now that I've said this, please, let me go get the scans I was talking about prior, if those are still needed.

 

[Deagonx]

why does dimensionality apply to AP if they aren't tier 1?

What?

Again, servants have more mystery then mages, which is why they're stronger. every single time it's mentioned that a Servant is going to fight a mage, they emphasize that it would be suicide

Because their magic power is extremely high. Rin was said to have magic circuits with a capacity of around 500, whereas Gilgamesh as a servant had over 100,000.

Servants have 4D invulnerability, which Vampires are able to bypass, and magecraft, along with the church's weapons, are some of the only things able to kill Vampires or Servants. Vampires and Servants are able to fight and kill each other just fine. Now that I've said this, please, let me go get the scans I was talking about prior, if those are still needed.

Yes they're absolutely needed. I have never seen anything indicating that servants have "4D invulnerability"

 

[KingNanaya]

Because their magic power is extremely high. Rin was said to have magic circuits with a capacity of around 500, whereas Gilgamesh as a servant had over 100,000.

it's also because of Mystry, where the older something is, the more Mystery it has, and the stronger that thing becomes. also, why are you comparing Rin to Gilgamesh? that is the absolute worst argument you could have brought up. you could have brought up Kirei vs. Assassin, where Kirei used weapons from the church to fight Assassin. but Gilgamesh and Rin? seriously? the man with 1 million and 1 resistances? The strongest summonable Heroic Spirit? there are so many better examples even in just Unlimited blade works. Like Kuzuki vs Archer, Kuzuki vs Saber, Shirou vs Archer, etc. and you choose to mention 2 characters that could not be any farther apart, and for what reason?

Yes they're absolutely needed. I have never seen anything indicating that servants have "4D invulnerability"

cool. make a CRT then. I'll send all the scans here that I can find, but you can't just say something isn't the case when we have an accepted CRT for this stuff. we have a process. make a CRT for the stuff you think is wrong.

 

[Deagonx]

you choose to mention 2 characters that could not be any farther apart, and for what reason?

To demonstrate that normal mages and servants are on the same spectrum of power, it is a quantitative difference, not qualitative.

cool. make a CRT then. I'll send all the scans here that I can find, but you can't just say something isn't the case when we have an accepted CRT for this stuff. we have a process. make a CRT for the stuff you think is wrong.

CRTs are to change profiles. What profile says servants have "4-D Invulnerability" and what CRT suggested such a thing?

 

[KingNanaya]

To demonstrate that normal mages and servants are on the same spectrum of power

they are not, by any means, and nothing suggests this at all. every time a mage fights a servant, they are either using Noble Phantasms or equivalent themselves, have some amp that can temporarily close this gap, or are being buffed by their servant. you are using 2 characters that are by no means comparable by any stretch of the imagination. even among Servants, Gilgamesh is practically untouchable by most high tier servants. he fought Lancer for 12 hours straight and won without getting hit. the only way Saber could even fight back against him was to counter Ea, and she even needed outside help for that. Comparing Rin to a beast like Gilgamesh is the biggest non-argument you could possibly have made.

CRTs are to change profiles. What profile says servants have "4-D Invulnerability" and what CRT suggested such a thing?

the Servant Physiology page. I'll try to find the CRT that added it, and you can make your CRT to counter it.

 

[KingNanaya]

Found the thread.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

You should get back on track y'all. 4-D resistances and hax (which excludes physical phenomenon by the way) are a wild tangent. If you want to learn about the justification search for "Magecraft" in the Servant Physiology page. But it is not constructive to abandon the main topic of the thread for a separate debate; if somethings are irrelevant or currently accepted there is no need to turn the thread into a bunch of mini-CRTs about them.

---

I got permission to make this comment by @Qawsedf234.

To me, the idea that it's merely a coincidence that there are six doors, named for each direction of three dimensional space, is a fairly ridiculous notion.

It is due to symbology, not coincidence. As Executor explained it wouldn't cause incredulity for those with cultural context, and even without the cultural context it was found to make sense when the explanation to the objection was accepted, so this preposterousness is not self-evident at all nor come of as justified.

I assume you find no fault in the first scan with BB about the multiplicity of spatial dimensions.

Did you link the wrong scan? Nothing is stated about creating dimensions.

Besides the point; even if I was hypothetically wrong about the creator, the higher dimensional spatio-temporal properties are still mentioned.

But if you want clarification, I was being concise, so I linked the scan describing the spatial and temporal properties of SE.RA.PH and the Cage of the Fallen, which are acknowledged to be created by Kiara:
(As a result of Zepar linking Kiara with her CCC self, the two of them became one in the same, with her powers becoming even stronger than they originally were. Created the Cage of the Fallen, a nonexistent space within SE.RA.PH where time and space are measured in more dimensions than they are in the normal world)

It never says they are spatial? In fact the wording suggests otherwise. If he is dropped back into his original dimension, singular, that would suggest it is referring to a realm. We occupy several spatial dimensions simultaneously.

Ninja'd by Executor making an insightful breakdown of the term in Japanese, which is a much better response.

Otherwise, my response would be that it is currently accepted in Medea's profile as Dimensional Manipulation.
His original dimension he was dropped back to is the third dimension, which is an apparent reference to three-dimensional space; if we are not being pedantic about battleboard phrasing this refers to a three-dimensional world. What alternative interpretation would you be willing to seriously argue the strength of in a CRT?

The "the third dimension" = "the three-dimensional world" has been stated in CCC by the way (from the BB higher dimensional perspective scan):

From this higher dimension, the third dimension looks like a flat scroll. Er, if the three-dimensional world is a world drawn in a book, and then if you jumped inside the book and came out outside the book, something like that?

So Shirou went on a trip to 'many' dimensions that are variable in the amount of spatial dimensions.

I got permission from Deagonx.

Yes, that's the point. Roa showed that the struggle on earth is the same in another realm. Characters on the same dimensionality as Kiara dwarfed her in strength, nothing implies that somehow there exists an infinite number of realms that dwarfed her. Implying that he meant "Yeah actually there exists an infinite number of dimensions" is a massive stretch. You render Roa's monologue as nothing more than "infinite dimensions exist" when it wasn't even the point he was trying to make.

Moreover, Roa uses the word transcendent to deal with everything regarding superhuman nature. He does so to define vampires by their abilities to not age and resurrect after death. If someone needs the actual scene, here it is. Even if we could assume that he's just stating what everyone thinks and not his own opinion during that scene, he doesn't deny the word itself. The point is more that "transcendent" can mean something entirely different and more down to earth than higher-dimensionality. So yeah, "no matter how transcendent" means "no matter how superhuman you are", which goes in tandem with the fact that the characters dwarfing Kiara aren't even higher-dimensional compared to her.

Actually, per Roa the struggle is more intense in higher dimensions, hence Kiara noped out.
Feel free to derive moral lessons, but this does not detract from the cosmological implications in the statement.
We can acknowledge moral lessons and wisdoms, but this is not the purpose of the thread hence there was no focus on them. The cosmology doesn't have to be the main point he makes; it just has to be a point he mentioned.

So no, the point of the thread is not to argue what Roa's main point is.
The point of the thread is to discuss the cosmological implications and lore Roa revealed while discussing his main point (whatever it is). And looking at the cosmological implication/lore, there was overwhelming agreement and acceptance in the thread it was brought up, including by one of the site's top Tier 1 experts, on High 1-B; so it doesn't seem to be a 'massive stretch' at all, and should be discussed more seriously.

---

Regarding the second paragraph, actually, the top-tier vampires are considered more powerful than most gods. So calling the species transcendental wouldn't be wrong. Fun fact: ORT inherits the title of Dead Apostle Ancestor, and so did Primate Murder who is one of the Beasts.

I can agree that transcendence can mean different things. However we know from the example provided by Roa that it ALSO means becoming higher dimensional.
So even if it also means other things, the qualifiers would also apply to the state of becoming higher dimensional (in fact, this is what the example highlights).

So let's go through the logic:

• 'No end to the path toward omnipotence'

1. What is a confirmed example for a method to going through the path toward omnipotence?	Ascending to higher dimensions.
2. Is there an end to the path toward omnipotence?	No. Even if you become omnipotent to a lower dimension.
Conclusion:	You can endlessly become higher dimensional and still not reach true omnipotence.

---

• 'No matter how transcendental you become, there will always be something that lies ahead'

1. What is a confirmed example of becoming transcendental?	Becoming higher dimensional.
2. Can you reach an endpoint by becoming transcendental?	No. No matter how transcendental you become.
Conclusion:	You can endlessly transcend to a higher dimension and still be able to transcend further.

Also, do you have a citation to your claim that there was absolute no demon who was higher dimensional compared to Kiara?

 

[KingNanaya]

You should get back on track y'all. 4-D resistances and hax (which excludes physical phenomenon by the way) are a wild tangent. If you want to learn about the justification search for "Magecraft" in the Servant Physiology page. But it is not constructive to abandon the main topic of the thread for a separate debate; if somethings are irrelevant or currently accepted there is no need to turn the thread into a bunch of mini-CRTs about them.

agreed, thank you

 

[Deagonx]

You should get back on track y'all. 4-D resistances and hax (which excludes physical phenomenon by the way) are a wild tangent. If you want to learn about the justification search for "Magecraft" in the Servant Physiology page. But it is not constructive to abandon the main topic of the thread for a separate debate

It became relevant as the claim was made that vampires are, themselves, higher-dimensional creatures which it appears there is no evidence for. This is relevant because the word "transcendent" was used for vampires by Roa, the exact same word in Japanese was used. The reasoning follows that if "transcendent" is used in a non-dimensional manner, we do not have a sufficient basis to assume that the meaning of transcendent in this other monologue is spatial dimensionality.

However, that is simply determining whether or not the statement is High 1-B at all. I disagree with that, it appears Firestorm does as well and Qawsedf seems iffy. But we need both a) sufficient agreement that it is High 1-B and b) Sufficient agreement that the statement applies to a specific realm and certain characters scale to it in order for a CRT to be successful, because if no profile is changed, then there's no CRT.

 

[KingNanaya]

However, that is simply determining whether or not the statement is High 1-B at all. I disagree with that, it appears Firestorm does as well and Qawsedf seems iffy. But we need both a) sufficient agreement that it is High 1-B and b) Sufficient agreement that the statement applies to a specific realm and certain characters scale to it in order for a CRT to be successful, because if no profile is changed, then there's no CRT.

if we go based off of what Pau Frank said prior, we could have just the root scale. and the root does indeed have a profile.

It became relevant as the claim was made that vampires are, themselves, higher-dimensional creatures which it appears there is no evidence for. This is relevant because the word "transcendent" was used for vampires by Roa, the exact same word in Japanese was used. The reasoning follows that if "transcendent" is used in a non-dimensional manner, we do not have a sufficient basis to assume that the meaning of transcendent in this other monologue is spatial dimensionality.

if all you're gonna do is say that I'm wrong then you don't need to comment here anymore. I've provided my evidence, so I'll wait until more staff comment.

 

[Deagonx]

if we go based off of what Pau Frank said prior, we could have just the root scale. and the root does indeed have a profile.

The Root is currently 1-A, though. But I suppose it could scale, if we were to agree it is High 1-B.

if all you're gonna do is say that I'm wrong then you don't need to comment here anymore. I've provided my evidence, so I'll wait until more staff comment.

What evidence did you provide that vampires are spatially 4-D?

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

The Root is currently 1-A, though. But I suppose it could scale, if we were to agree it is High 1-B.

What does this mean? Do you have plans to revise the Root's tier?

 

[KingNanaya]

The Root is currently 1-A, though. But I suppose it could scale, if we were to agree it is High 1-B.

the root would stay 1-A, it would just be more justifications for it.

What evidence did you provide that vampires are spatially 4-D?

I sent a whole CRT, but ok

 

[Deagonx]

What does this mean? Do you have plans to revise the Root's tier?

If I recall correctly the current 1-A is based on Negative Theology, which was overturned in a CRT but we may not have gotten around to applying it to the root page. But I do plan to address the dimensionality.

I sent a whole CRT, but ok

Which, as best I can tell, didn't even mention vampires?

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

If I recall correctly the current 1-A is based on Negative Theology, which was overturned in a CRT but we may not have gotten around to applying it to the root page. But I do plan to address the dimensionality.

The NT staff thread is currently stalled: https://vsbattles.com/threads/removal-of-negative-theology-scaling.154924/.

 

[Deagonx]

Ah, I forgot. We should likely wrap that up.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Ah, I forgot. We should likely wrap that up.

Go help with that, then.

 

[Deagonx]

My brother in christ I am the one that made the thread.

 

[Tdjwo]

Bump

 

[Tdjwo]

I would like to note that Ultima and DarkDragonMedeus also agreed with the High 1B statement but weren't fully convinced yet with it applying to the universe. Although, they didn't see the new arguments made for it to apply to the universe. So yeah, we can add them as agree for the statement only.

 

[KingNanaya]

I would like to note that Ultima and DarkDragonMedeus also agreed with the High 1B statement but weren't fully convinced yet with it applying to the universe. Although, they didn't see the new arguments made for it to apply to the universe. So yeah, we can add them as agree for the statement only.

I can add that, but send the thread where it happened on my wall first

 

[Tdjwo]

Bump

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I was informed Executor agrees with the thread now, so I'm leaning towards that now.