Where Roa's High 1-B Statement Applies, 6 doors Translation, and Where They Both Fit

[KingNanaya]

So, the last threads about this wound up having many misunderstandings on both sides, myself included. So, I want to make this so that we can accept things one by one, and see if they apply to each other.

First, the statement that implies a high 1-B cosmology. We have Roa saying "There is no end to human perception, no end to the path to omnipotence. No matter how transcendent we become, there is always a higher level." and he uses Kiara Sessyoin as an example, saying "For example, She's a sister who somehow got mixed up with a burial agency. She says that she was demonized by Sabbat and gained higher dimensional senses that made her omnipotent in this dimension" and even stated after that "She is still bound to matter. She is still part of this universe."


Second, the 6 doors statement. Just gonna quote it below.

RAWS: 六つの扉は、上下、左右、前後の、 あらゆる空間を、意味して、いる。

ENGLISH TRANSLATION: The six doors signifies every space going up and down, left and right, front and back.

And then after that, it says:

RAWS: そして 彼の、大いなる神は、 決して光届かぬ、あたしたちの宇宙の、外側、窮極の門、の彼方、に鎮座なさっている。 それでいながら、あらゆる空間に隣り合い、 全てと、つながっている。 不確かな人の言葉に綴られ、“スト・テュホン”と、呼ばれることも、ある、けれど……。

ENGLISH TRANSLATION: And his Great God is seated beyond the ultimate gate that is beyond our universe where light cannot reach. He is adjoined to every space, connected to everything. Written in a human language that is unclear, he is sometimes referred to as "Sut Tyhoon" but..

@Executor_N0 , when asked about these, said:

Taking into reference similar wording, similar stuff alongside the cardinal directions is sometimes generalized as meaning "all of space" even when including places where there are higher dimensions.

The most clear example is Pokémon whose entire foundation of the 4th gen is exactly in the meaning of the word "Uchu" and "Sekai" using space as "up down, left right and back forth", and even in that case space is proven to have at least one more direction as parallel spaces are a thing that are encompassed by it.

Another similar example is the Four Holy Beasts in Digimon whose entire function is to set up the structure of all of time and space using the 4 cardinal directions as the basis for everything, but even in that context there are higher dimensions beyond just those, and yet when it's talking about space in an abstract sense, they often just call "up and down", "north, east, west, south".

In some cases, "north, east, west, south" are just a generalized way of saying "the general concept of directions", the same with "up, down, left, right, back and forth".

I'm almost perfectly sure that Nasuverse has clear examples of higher dimensions, so it mentioning the traditional spatial directions as "all dimensions" can be thought as just a general way of doing so.

Another similar example is that of 8, 80, 800, 8000, in Japanese like the 8 million gods, all have the traditional meaning of in fact referring to the "greatest number" "infinite", and "beyond count". So depending on the context, what seems to be limiting in fact just a way of generically calling an entire concept, instead of that specific version of the concept. It'll all depend on context in the series of course.

And when I misunderstood his statement, he clarified, and said:

What I said is less about translation and more about what is common to see in works that deal with the metaphysical and abstract. It's very common to use mundane words to describe more than what the words themselves say.

And in regards to the translation itself, the text in very literal wording of course brings out the concept of "Space" as it's grounded in Japanese that comes from the Chinese translation of Buddhist texts with the meaning of "North, South, East, West, Above and Below" or "left and right, back and forth, up and down" which is their description for three-dimensional space just like their meaning for "Time" is "path from the past through the present into the future".

So just looking into what the kanji literally say, it's talking about the commonly described 3D space.

What I meant in mt previous comment is that it's perfectly possible to use that to describe a general idea of "all of space" without being 100% literal of just being 3D space. So what I said had nothing to do with translation itself, but an interpretation out of the text.

The last thing is just a note that I feel this should stick to one topic at a time, as to avoid confusion.

EDIT: Forgot that 6 doors stuff was already accepted, just in another thread, which is my bad. So the only things left to discuss are Roa's statement, if it's High 1-B, and what it applies/scales to.

EDIT 2: Just so you can see the scene with the full context

Agree: @LordGriffin1000 @DarkDragonMedeus @Elizhaa

Neutral: @Qawsedf234

Disagree: @Deagonx @Firestorm808

 

[Deagonx]

Where does that English translation come from? That isn't the official translation.

 

[KingNanaya]

Where does that English translation come from? That isn't the official translation.

It's here. we can double check with a Translation Helper, if you want

Edit: I should mention that it's fairly close to the bottom

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

I assume the first topic is regarding whether Roa's statement is High 1-B? (OP, please declare what topic we are starting with)

If so, there has been a strong majority in this statement being High 1-B in the thread that brought it up, including by one of the top Tier 1 experts, Ultima. Has anything happened that can cause change in this regard?

Where does that English translation come from? That isn't the official translation.

There were concerns that a more literal translation uses "space" instead of "dimensions", so that translation was being used for a while.

For reference, the official translation is:

The six doors...up, down, left, right, front, and back...represent all possible...dimensions.

This is relating to the second topic, so if we are starting with the first, we shouldn't go in depth regarding this to avoid derailment.

 

[KingNanaya]

(OP, please declare what topic we are starting with)

Since we already started with talking about the 6 doors stuff, let's talk about the 6 doors. also, this is a staff thread, just so you're aware.

 

[Deagonx]

If so, there has been a strong majority in this statement being High 1-B in the thread that brought it up, including by one of the top Tier 1 experts, Ultima. Has anything happened that can cause change in this regard?

Without an accepted content revision, it doesn't really matter. The only way anything will get applied is for there to be a staff consensus not only that the statement is High 1-B, but that it applies to a profile that will then be changed. There isn't like a lingering floating approval of the statement independent of a profile being updated.

For my part, I do not believe the statement is High 1-B.

I'll write something more thorough about the doors tomorrow.

 

[KingNanaya]

Without an accepted content revision, it doesn't really matter. The only way anything will get applied is for there to be a staff consensus not only that the statement is High 1-B, but that it applies to a profile that will then be changed.

people have made scaling chains in the past. since we likely are making a cosmology blog soon to explain everything, this should be no different. Maybe even more justified. if we can't even get an acceptance on whether or not a statement is a certain rating, and the structure it applies to, so it can be applied to a future blog, then we can't do anything with the information we have, even if it's right.

 

[KingNanaya]

I've updated the OP with more relevant information that I forgot to add due to me being tired. it is at the bottom of the post

 

[KingNanaya]

bump

 

[SweetDao]

I got permission from Deagonx here, thank you very much.
-----------
I have some contention with the quote of Roa. Moreover, I feel like the bigger context of the scene was left out by these screenshots themselves.

In the first scan, we can see there is a bit of text untranslated at the top. When translated, it gave me the following quote :

Why reincarnate? It would be easier to continue living as an individual and not bother others.

Since the literal following of the sentence is him talking about how "endless is the human perception and path to omnipotence" we can safely assume that the context before that sentence is important to truly grasp the meaning of it. He first and foremost talks about himself and reincarnation before talking about higher-dimensional stuff. Maybe I'm wrong, but no matter what, I STRONGLY feel that everyone needs the full scene and not just the interesting tidbits to fully understand the scene.

As such I strongly advocate for a link or a fully screenshotted album of that scene before making any assumptions regarding what it could give.

With that out of the way, I would like to tackle Roa's quote directly.

There is no end to human perception, no end to the path to omnipotence. No matter how transcendent we become, there is always a higher level

I have a massive problem with that latter half. No matter how I read it or I interpret it, I can only see someone talking about the meaningless of the "human" existence and the finitude of life. His whole "There is no end to human perception" feels more like he's saying "There is no true path and people see stuff differently" rather than literally stating "Perception can extend to infinite dimensions". Of course, it's with taking the context BEFORE the quote itself.

The part with the endless path to omnipotence is interesting but no matter how you interpret it, you can't assume it's dealing with "endless levels of higher dimensions to reach omnipotence".

One of the main reasons for this is because Kiara gained supposed "omnipotence" through higher-dimension senses in this dimension.

She says that she was demonized by Sabbat and gained higher dimensional senses that made her omnipotent in this dimension.

Now here is the thing. Either what Kiara gained isn't what we can proclaim as "true omnipotence" or she indeed gained the very same omnipotence Roa was talking about. If it's the second case, I would request an explication on why getting higher dimensional senses somehow would grant her omnipotence but I guess it's explained somewhere or just fate doing fate stuff. There is a more interesting question to ask and it's the fact Roa only used Kiara (who was higher dimensional +1 to the humans) to illustrate his words. If I can remember correctly, there was also a scene (somehow not in the OP too) where Kiara is seen as being a mere ant in front of the demonic heavens or whatever their name was, and she preferred to stay/return to the human world.

Here is the quote I'm referring to.

My view on that matter is really simple. What could be regarded as omnipotence for someone might just be a power gap for someone else. Those demonic gods are more powerful than Kiara, but nothing dictates that it must be in a Higher Dimensional kind of way.

In fact, I'll go even further, just like the beginning of the scene was Roa dealing with existence in a metaphorical way (reincarnation/sense of self), I'm quite sure Kiara, who said something similar, is also referring to the finitude and meaninglessness of her existence in front of higher being.

I spent my whole life trying to gain the eyes to see, but what those eyes saw was not only the truth of the world, but also a lesser version of me.
It was as if I had strived to know my own miserable self.
No matter how small the world may be, this me is worth a little more than that one over there?

Notice that we're dealing with "eyes to see", the ability to perceive mentioned by Roa himself. This whole rant is nothing more than a way for himself to explain to the reader that there is no way to truly achieve freedom. Be it via reincarnation, higher dimensionality, or omnipotence, there is no way to truly gain what he's searching for.

Alongside that, I would like to now tackle his semantics.

There is no end to human perception, no end to the path to omnipotence. No matter how transcendent we become, there is always a higher level.

With everything I explained above, we can safely assume that the latter half is nothing more than him saying, poetically or metaphorically, that there is always someone above you, in the sense that there is someone better than you.

While not a strong argument, there is a similar proverb in Chinese.

No matter how good you think you are, there is always someone out there that is better.

I don't think someone reading this would understand "there is an infinite hierarchy of people better than me", no. It just means there is always a sky above you in a conceptual manner, not in a literal way. In my opinion, this is exactly what Roa is doing there. Therefore, I disagree with the usage of that statement to grant a High 1-B Tier.

 

[KingNanaya]

I have some contention with the quote of Roa. Moreover, I feel like the bigger context of the scene was left out by these screenshots themselves.

In the first scan, we can see there is a bit of text untranslated at the top. When translated, it gave me the following quote :

Why reincarnate? It would be easier to continue living as an individual and not bother others.

Since the literal following of the sentence is him talking about how "endless is the human perception and path to omnipotence" we can safely assume that the context before that sentence is important to truly grasp the meaning of it. He first and foremost talks about himself and reincarnation before talking about higher-dimensional stuff.

while I can understand this point, we already know that Roa's soul is in the Root. It wouldn't make the most to say that he wasn't talking about dimensions when he the puts his soul into a 1-A space to infinitely reincarnate. From his actions, it is fairly reasonable to assume that while referring to transcendence, he was talking about higher dimensional stuff.

With that out of the way, I would like to tackle Roa's quote directly.


I have a massive problem with that latter half. No matter how I read it or I interpret it, I can only see someone talking about the meaningless of the "human" existence and the finitude of life. His whole "There is no end to human perception" feels more like he's saying "There is no true path and people see stuff differently" rather than literally stating "Perception can extend to infinite dimensions". Of course, it's with taking the context BEFORE the quote itself.

This contention makes sense. but afterward, Roa did talk about Kiara, who gained higher dimensional senses, which gives more evidence to Roa talking about higher dimensions in the Transcendence quote.

Now here is the thing. Either what Kiara gained isn't what we can proclaim as "true omnipotence" or she indeed gained the very same omnipotence Roa was talking about. If it's the second case, I would request an explication on why getting higher dimensional senses somehow would grant her omnipotence but I guess it's explained somewhere or just fate doing fate stuff. There is a more interesting question to ask and it's the fact Roa only used Kiara (who was higher dimensional +1 to the humans) to illustrate his words. If I can remember correctly, there was also a scene (somehow not in the OP too) where Kiara is seen as being a mere ant in front of the demonic heavens or whatever their name was, and she preferred to stay/return to the human world.

I don't believe any version of Kiara that we've seen so far has reached the omnipotence that Roa was speaking about. Using what we have currently accepted, characters of the same dimensionality as her are more often than not stronger than her, and by a pretty decent margin, or they are higher in terms of dimensionality. As for the other stuff,

If I can remember correctly, there was also a scene (somehow not in the OP too) where Kiara is seen as being a mere ant in front of the demonic heavens or whatever their name was, and she preferred to stay/return to the human world.

I thought I added it, but I guess I didn't. It was really late at the time I made this thread, and I had also forgot to add another piece of evidence, so it's my bad.

There is a more interesting question to ask and it's the fact Roa only used Kiara (who was higher dimensional +1 to the humans) to illustrate his words.

If you mean "why did Roa mention Kiara over any other character?" then my answer would be "because she proves his point" she was +1 dimension over humans, and her perception was higher than her dimensionality. If you mean "why did Roa only mention Kiara and no one else?" then my answer would be that Kiara was just the best example to use to get his point across. or he had a crush or something, idk

In fact, I'll go even further, just like the beginning of the scene was Roa dealing with existence in a metaphorical way (reincarnation/sense of self), I'm quite sure Kiara, who said something similar, is also referring to the finitude and meaninglessness of her existence in front of higher being.


Notice that we're dealing with "eyes to see", the ability to perceive mentioned by Roa himself. This whole rant is nothing more than a way for himself to explain to the reader that there is no way to truly achieve freedom. Be it via reincarnation, higher dimensionality, or omnipotence, there is no way to truly gain what he's searching for.

Alongside that, I would like to now tackle his semantics.

With everything I explained above, we can safely assume that the latter half is nothing more than him saying, poetically or metaphorically, that there is always someone above you, in the sense that there is someone better than you.

While not a strong argument, there is a similar proverb in Chinese.

I don't think someone reading this would understand "there is an infinite hierarchy of people better than me", no. It just means there is always a sky above you in a conceptual manner, not in a literal way. In my opinion, this is exactly what Roa is doing there.

aside from the stuff I talked about before, I don't necessarily disagree with all of this. I think it makes sense from a narrative point of view, but I don't think that makes it takes away from the evidence shown. I still think it can both be literal dimensional transcendence and perception, and getting to the best you believe you can and realizing that there are still people out there that are better than you, while having "eyes to see" that you can still grow. Nasu really out here dropping the hardest life lessons on us

 

[KingNanaya]

bump

 

[1Nairove]

bump

In order for the thread to be concluded quickly, you can write to the active staff and finish the job, for this, staff like "LordGriffin1000" will be good

 

[KingNanaya]

In order for the thread to be concluded quickly, you can write to the active staff and finish the job, for this, staff like "LordGriffin1000" will be good

I've done that. I've messaged about 3 staff of their walls. I'll keep going ig

 

[1Nairove]

I've done that. I've messaged about 3 staff of their walls. I'll keep going ig

some staff can get busy and most of them are a bit lazy so we have to wait

 

[Tdjwo]

Just call Antvasima and let him tag all staff members. That way, it would be faster. This is just going to take forever. Also, call Crimson.

 

[KingNanaya]

Just call Antvasima and let him tag all staff members. That way, it would be faster. This is just going to take forever. Also, call Crimson.

I'll try

 

[Tdjwo]

I was given permission by Deagonx.

I found another evidence for the Universe being the reason for infinite layers of higher D being inadequate for the transcendence of the universe.

As we know, Yog-Sothoth exists outside the Universe, and he's superior to it. One of the Demon Gods, Raum who is a higher dimensional being on the same existence as Goetia, claimed that only a being that already existed outside of the universe and wasn't bound by the physical laws(Yog-Sothoth) could accomplish his goal of inflicting pain on all beings in the Universe because the universe itself was making it impossible for Raum to affect.

This implies that Raum who is also higher dimensional(6D, likely 8D) wasn't able to affect the inside the Universe because the Universe itself was preventing him from doing so but Yog-Sothoth, who's superior to the universe would be able to . So while this isn't a blatant showcase of an High 1B universe, it still helps us understand that the Universe is the reason that higher dimensional beings can't transcend it. Add this scan with Roa's statement of "infinite levels of transcendence still being bound to the universe," then you will get a very concrete High 1B statement tying to the Universe.

 

[SweetDao]

I forgot to mention two points in my original post because I was in a hurry to write it, I apologize for that. I also got permission from Deagonx once again.

She says that she was demonized by Sabbat and gained higher dimensional senses that made her omnipotent in this dimension.

Dimension and dimensional are used quite loosely in that sentence. The "in this dimension" clearly means a plane of existence, not an "additional spatial axis". Therefore what Kiara effectively did was be able to see a greater place beyond the "human world" that I assume is beyond the regular universe. I'll explain why at one point.

The thing is, "Higher-dimensional" has either two or three significations here. The first one would be quite literally "Seeing things as 4D/5D". The second one would be "higher dimensional" in the sense that she sees a place beyond her world. The third one would assume that "higher dimensional" is not something literal but in fact poetic or metaphorical. Before anything, no "her being omnipotent in that dimension" doesn't disprove what I'm going to say right now.

In this scan, we see Kiara saying something very interesting. Her goal during her life was to "gain true sight" therefore finding the right perspective, the truth. The same truth that she states to have beheld. Notice how she doesn't say "a part of the truth" but very factually states that it is "the truth of the world.".

To explain in one sentence, gaining such a new perspective allowed her to peer into another plane of existence that made her realize how minuscule/powerless she was. Nothing more, nothing less. In fact, she further cements what I'm trying to say when she states the following :

"What then was the purpose of my metamorphosis, if all my efforts served to do was demonstrate to me how pitiful I was?"

She didn't wish to get "higher dimensional" but just obtain what she sought. Remember who took Kiara as an example? Roa himself. The first thing he said is "how endless the perception of humans is", and how no matter transcendent you are, there is still someone above you.

Kiara is the perfect example to illustrate his words, yes. But not in a High 1-B perspective. The only factual thing that happened is Kiara "being" inside another plane of existence and seeing stronger people around her. She reached a place that is qualitative, not quantitative. Or in other words "Because Kiara got to that place, she realized there were always people stronger than her." and not "Kiara got to that place, but an infinite number of other qualitative places exist above her with stronger people inside."

Nothing indicates any sort of infinite dimensional hierarchy, especially because Roa used Kiara as an example. This just shows how shallow perception can be sometimes. Be it in the human world or in the "demonic heavens", there is always someone above you, Roa is just making a parallel really.

The main issue now is obviously the fact that she is stated as omnipotent in the regular world. As I explained earlier, it all depends on what "dimension" truly means here. However, seeing the antecedents with Nasuverse regarding higher dimension, it shouldn't be too much of a stretch to assume that "Higher-dimensional senses" means at the same time a dimensionally superior point of view (as in metaphorical), alongside an actual superiority over her plane of existence (as in physical). I personally can't imagine the usage of such words to mean "4D/5D" stuff, that would make no sense at all in the context.

As for why I mentioned that for me the demonic heavens shouldn't be in the universe, I'll tackle it now. Roa states that Kiara is still bound to this universe, indeed. However, when he tells the story, he explains why she was still bound inside it. It's because she decided to stay on her own accord, not because the demonic heavens were within the universe itself.

Now, Roa said this :

"But even she is still bound by her material form---- still bound to this universe. As for why-----"

The sentence is self-explanatory. If she was still bound to this universe because she willingly decided to stay, it means that if she had wanted to fully embrace the demonic heavens she wouldn't be bound to this universe anymore. Therefore it's not a stretch to say that the demonic heavens aren't within the human universe. (Little additional note: I talked with KingNanaya and he explained to me that maybe the demonic heavens could be on the reverse side of the world, but idk what it entails tbf so I'll not delve deeper into that.)

Roa himself states that what Kiara was able to sense was the "outside" of the world. Whatever it even means. Although I would interpret it with it meaning something outside of the universe. Moreover, what he is doing is more or less an existential crisis since he understands that seeking strength (like Kiara) or happiness is useless. Thanks to his reincarnations, he understood that what was truly important is to continue to exist "as a self" rather than as a person. I'll take what he means more conceptually as in "an identity that doesn't belong to only one body".

As for a little counter-argument for Tdjwo post :

This implies that Raum who is also higher dimensional(6D, likely 8D) wasn't able to affect the inside the Universe because the Universe itself was preventing him from doing so. So while this isn't a blatant showcase of an High 1B universe, it still helps us understand that the Universe is the reason that higher dimensional beings can't transcend it. Add this scan with Roa's statement of "infinite levels of transcendence still being bound to the universe," then you will get a very concrete High 1B statement tying to the Universe.

You said it yourself, it's absolutely not dealing with an infinite dimensional universe. You're trying to plaster something that could make sense but feels like a stretch. If at least there was some sort of mention of "dimensional", "dimensions", space attribute, or whatever, I could see the link but right now it feels like trying to put the "High 1-B statement" into the situation to explain things that I'm sure made sense on their own within the narrative itself. Moreover as explained above, Kiara was going to leave the universe if she truly wanted to do so, but she preferred to remain within it, so it wouldn't even make sense/impact the universe itself if somehow the statement is High 1-B.

 

[KingNanaya]

I was given permission by Deagonx.

I found another evidence for the Universe being the reason for infinite layers of higher D being inadequate for the transcendence of the universe. As we know, Yog-Sothoth exists outside the Universe, and he's superior to it. One of the Demon Gods, Raum who is a higher dimensional being on the same existence as Goetia, claimed that only a being that already existed outside of the universe and wasn't bound by the physical laws(Yog-Sothoth) could accomplish his goal of exterminating all beings in the Universe because the universe itself was making it impossible for Raum to destroy.

This implies that Raum who is also higher dimensional(6D, likely 8D) wasn't able to affect the inside the Universe because the Universe itself was preventing him from doing so. So while this isn't a blatant showcase of an High 1B universe, it still helps us understand that the Universe is the reason that higher dimensional beings can't transcend it. Add this scan with Roa's statement of "infinite levels of transcendence still being bound to the universe," then you will get a very concrete High 1B statement tying to the Universe.

I appreciate the response. We can come back to this later once we finish with Roa's statement.

 

[Deagonx]

This is all getting quite lengthy and wordy and we are already having a hard time getting staff involved to read it and assess it, so I think it's likely best if we limit the back and forth. I am inclined towards SweetDao's points but I do not want to be unfair, so Nanaya if you have a counter you'd like to post feel free to do so, but after that we should try to get more staff involvement.

 

[KingNanaya]

I forgot to mention two points in my original post because I was in a hurry to write it, I apologize for that. I also got permission from Deagonx once again.


Dimension and dimensional are used quite loosely in that sentence. The "in this dimension" clearly means a plane of existence, not an "additional spatial axis". Therefore what Kiara effectively did was be able to see a greater place beyond the "human world" that I assume is beyond the regular universe. I'll explain why at one point.

The thing is, "Higher-dimensional" has either two or three significations here. The first one would be quite literally "Seeing things as 4D/5D". The second one would be "higher dimensional" in the sense that she sees a place beyond her world. The third one would assume that "higher dimensional" is not something literal but in fact poetic or metaphorical. Before anything, no "her being omnipotent in that dimension" doesn't disprove what I'm going to say right now.

In this scan, we see Kiara saying something very interesting. Her goal during her life was to "gain true sight" therefore finding the right perspective, the truth. The same truth that she states to have beheld. Notice how she doesn't say "a part of the truth" but very factually states that it is "the truth of the world.".

To explain in one sentence, gaining such a new perspective allowed her to peer into another plane of existence that made her realize how minuscule/powerless she was. Nothing more, nothing less. In fact, she further cements what I'm trying to say when she states the following :


She didn't wish to get "higher dimensional" but just obtain what she sought. Remember who took Kiara as an example? Roa himself. The first thing he said is "how endless the perception of humans is", and how no matter transcendent you are, there is still someone above you.

Kiara is the perfect example to illustrate his words, yes. But not in a High 1-B perspective. The only factual thing that happened is Kiara "being" inside another plane of existence and seeing stronger people around her. She reached a place that is qualitative, not quantitative. Or in other words "Because Kiara got to that place, she realized there were always people stronger than her." and not "Kiara got to that place, but an infinite number of other qualitative places exist above her with stronger people inside."

Nothing indicates any sort of infinite dimensional hierarchy, especially because Roa used Kiara as an example. This just shows how shallow perception can be sometimes. Be it in the human world or in the "demonic heavens", there is always someone above you, Roa is just making a parallel really.

The main issue now is obviously the fact that she is stated as omnipotent in the regular world. As I explained earlier, it all depends on what "dimension" truly means here. However, seeing the antecedents with Nasuverse regarding higher dimension, it shouldn't be too much of a stretch to assume that "Higher-dimensional senses" means at the same time a dimensionally superior point of view (as in metaphorical), alongside an actual superiority over her plane of existence (as in physical). I personally can't imagine the usage of such words to mean "4D/5D" stuff, that would make no sense at all in the context.

As for why I mentioned that for me the demonic heavens shouldn't be in the universe, I'll tackle it now. Roa states that Kiara is still bound to this universe, indeed. However, when he tells the story, he explains why she was still bound inside it. It's because she decided to stay on her own accord, not because the demonic heavens were within the universe itself.

Now, Roa said this :


The sentence is self-explanatory. If she was still bound to this universe because she willingly decided to stay, it means that if she had wanted to fully embrace the demonic heavens she wouldn't be bound to this universe anymore. Therefore it's not a stretch to say that the demonic heavens aren't within the human universe. (Little additional note: I talked with KingNanaya and he explained to me that maybe the demonic heavens could be on the reverse side of the world, but idk what it entails tbf so I'll not delve deeper into that.)

Roa himself states that what Kiara was able to sense was the "outside" of the world. Whatever it even means. Although I would interpret it with it meaning something outside of the universe. Moreover, what he is doing is more or less an existential crisis since he understands that seeking strength (like Kiara) or happiness is useless. Thanks to his reincarnations, he understood that what was truly important is to continue to exist "as a self" rather than as a person. I'll take what he means more conceptually as in "an identity that doesn't belong to only one body".

As for a little counter-argument for Tdjwo post :


You said it yourself, it's absolutely not dealing with an infinite dimensional universe. You're trying to plaster something that could make sense but feels like a stretch. If at least there was some sort of mention of "dimensional", "dimensions", space attribute, or whatever, I could see the link but right now it feels like trying to put the "High 1-B statement" into the situation to explain things that I'm sure made sense on their own within the narrative itself. Moreover as explained above, Kiara was going to leave the universe if she truly wanted to do so, but she preferred to remain within it, so it wouldn't even make sense/impact the universe itself if somehow the statement is High 1-B.

Will respond to this once I get home

 

[KingNanaya]

I forgot to mention two points in my original post because I was in a hurry to write it, I apologize for that. I also got permission from Deagonx once again.


Dimension and dimensional are used quite loosely in that sentence. The "in this dimension" clearly means a plane of existence, not an "additional spatial axis". Therefore what Kiara effectively did was be able to see a greater place beyond the "human world" that I assume is beyond the regular universe. I'll explain why at one point.

The thing is, "Higher-dimensional" has either two or three significations here. The first one would be quite literally "Seeing things as 4D/5D". The second one would be "higher dimensional" in the sense that she sees a place beyond her world. The third one would assume that "higher dimensional" is not something literal but in fact poetic or metaphorical. Before anything, no "her being omnipotent in that dimension" doesn't disprove what I'm going to say right now.

With how knowledgeable Roa is on the Root and higher dimensional stuff, it wouldn't make much sense if he weren't talking about spatial dimensions. Also, there isn't anything beyond the universe other than the Outer Gods, which as far as I know, there aren't many of them. someone can correct me on my wall, but I'm pretty sure we only have 2 or 3 Outer Gods.

In this scan, we see Kiara saying something very interesting. Her goal during her life was to "gain true sight" therefore finding the right perspective, the truth. The same truth that she states to have beheld. Notice how she doesn't say "a part of the truth" but very factually states that it is "the truth of the world.".

To explain in one sentence, gaining such a new perspective allowed her to peer into another plane of existence that made her realize how minuscule/powerless she was. Nothing more, nothing less. In fact, she further cements what I'm trying to say when she states the following :


She didn't wish to get "higher dimensional" but just obtain what she sought. Remember who took Kiara as an example? Roa himself. The first thing he said is "how endless the perception of humans is", and how no matter transcendent you are, there is still someone above you.

For all of the stuff about the "Truth" of the world, it could be talking about the Reverse side of the world, which is contained within the Earth itself. This would mean that Kiara wanted to see the "Truth" or reverse side of the world. And once she gained the means to view it, she realized how weak she was in comparison to the other higher dimensional beings such as Primate Murder (goofy name, I know). For the "She didn't wish to get "higher dimensional" but just obtain what she sought." part, she would have needed to become higher dimensional in order to achieve her goal.

The main issue now is obviously the fact that she is stated as omnipotent in the regular world. As I explained earlier, it all depends on what "dimension" truly means here. However, seeing the antecedents with Nasuverse regarding higher dimension, it shouldn't be too much of a stretch to assume that "Higher-dimensional senses" means at the same time a dimensionally superior point of view (as in metaphorical), alongside an actual superiority over her plane of existence (as in physical). I personally can't imagine the usage of such words to mean "4D/5D" stuff, that would make no sense at all in the context.

Having dimensional be metaphorical leads to too many assumptions that go against Roa as a character. Also, Nasuverse is very consistent when it comes to how and where the word "Dimension" and the like are used. It is almost always in reference to spatial dimensions, so I'm not sure if I understand why it would be different for this situation.

As for why I mentioned that for me the demonic heavens shouldn't be in the universe, I'll tackle it now. Roa states that Kiara is still bound to this universe, indeed. However, when he tells the story, he explains why she was still bound inside it. It's because she decided to stay on her own accord, not because the demonic heavens were within the universe itself.

Now, Roa said this : ""But even she is still bound by her material form---- still bound to this universe. As for why-----""


The sentence is self-explanatory. If she was still bound to this universe because she willingly decided to stay, it means that if she had wanted to fully embrace the demonic heavens she wouldn't be bound to this universe anymore. Therefore it's not a stretch to say that the demonic heavens aren't within the human universe. (Little additional note: I talked with KingNanaya and he explained to me that maybe the demonic heavens could be on the reverse side of the world, but idk what it entails tbf so I'll not delve deeper into that.)

She was always bound to the Universe, as other beings that are higher dimensional are also bound by the universe. Beings that are at the technical height of the cosmology are still bound to the Universe and it's laws. We can see this, courtesy of Tdjwo's scans from FGO.




I should probably also mention that none of the 6D/8D characters will be effected by this at all. This will just buff the current cosmology. If it does apply to characters that are +1 of the current cosmology, that can be discussed after staff review this.

 

[KingNanaya]

This is all getting quite lengthy and wordy and we are already having a hard time getting staff involved to read it and assess it, so I think it's likely best if we limit the back and forth. I am inclined towards SweetDao's points but I do not want to be unfair, so Nanaya if you have a counter you'd like to post feel free to do so, but after that we should try to get more staff involvement.

I made my response. if you could get some staff to review this, that would be appreciated.

 

[KingNanaya]

bump

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I made my response. if you could get some staff to review this, that would be appreciated.

bump

@DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality @Elizhaa @Agnaa @Everything12

 

[KingNanaya]

@DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality @Elizhaa @Agnaa @Everything12

thank you so much

 

[KingNanaya]

bump

 

[Agnaa]

@Agnaa

I currently have 30 threads in my "to-evaluate" backlog, I've added this to the list, and will get to it eventually.

EDIT: KingNanaya said on Discord that I'm not needed here, so I've removed it from my list.

 

[KingNanaya]

I currently have 30 threads in my "to-evaluate" backlog, I've added this to the list, and will get to it eventually.

Very appreciated, thank you

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Got permission to make a comment from @LephyrTheRevanchist.

A machine translation is being used for Roa's statement, when a more reliable human translation is already available here.

To make reading it convenient for everyone, the passage with context is found in the spoiler tag:

Spoiler: Roa's conversation

"Why reincarnation, anyway? It'd be a lot easier to prolong your own individual life, and more importantly, you wouldn't cause problems for anyone else." "Because if I did that, I'd eventually reach a limit. There is no upper bound to human perception――no end to the path toward omnipotence. No matter how transcendental you become, there will always be something that lies ahead." "Take, for example, a certain nun who suddenly turned up among the Burial Agency. Using the sabbath, she became a devil, and so obtained a sense for the higher dimensions, turning functionally almighty in ours. But even she is still bound by her material form――still bound to this universe. As for why―――" 'Fortune may have allowed me to ascend to the seat of the demonic heavens to bring salvation upon all life, yet there I was naught but an insignificant initiate. Though I had tried to gain true sight my whole life, what I finally beheld was not merely the truth of the world, but just how minuscule I was within it. What then was the purpose of my metamorphosis, if all my efforts served to do was demonstrate to me how pitiful I was?' 'As such, I remain here in this world. Small though it may be, I find far greater purpose within myself here than on the other side...' "Quite the silly story. As soon as she became able to sense the 'outside' of the world, she felt her own powerlessness more acutely than ever before. Yet another example that drives home the limits of the individual. I wanted to know everything. Everything there is to know about this ever-expanding universe. As such, it was pertinent for me not to seek strength or happiness on an individual level, but instead a self that continues to exist until the end of the world." His desire contradicts itself. The world will continue to expand. He claims that he sought eternity in order to know everything, but that was doomed to be an endless journey from the start. If what he says is true――― That the world continues to expand and give birth to new things――― Then even if he were to live for an eternity, he could never fully know everything. "No, it is possible. It will definitely have a conclusion. I will definitely reach its conclusion. It is for that reason that we exist. We were born into this world in order to define the eternity that is this universe. If not, there would have been no reason for us to become intelligent. Even if the intelligent life born on this planet belongs to the past, and is far from understanding eternity, as long as the will persists, I shall continue to pursue this ever-changing voyage."

The highlight within the text is that Roa states that there is:

1. 'No end to the path toward omnipotence'
2. 'No matter how transcendental you become, there will always be something that lies ahead'.

As an example to prove his point, he cites Kiara becoming a demon to reach a higher dimension and become omnipotent/almighty within the human dimensions, only to learn how insignificant she is within the Demonic Heavens.

The argument is that if reaching a higher dimension is considered a step within the unending path toward (true) omnipotence, and an example of levels of transcendence that has no upper ceiling, then this implies High 1-B cosmology within the verse.

True Demons which Kiara becomes in some timelines are stated to be higher dimensional beings in materials. Qualitative superiority between dimensions is currently accepted based on evidence compiled here and here.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Got permission to make a comment from @LephyrTheRevanchist.

A machine translation is being used for Roa's statement, when a more reliable human translation is already available here.

To make reading it convenient for everyone, the passage with context is found in the spoiler tag:

Spoiler: Roa's conversation

"Why reincarnation, anyway? It'd be a lot easier to prolong your own individual life, and more importantly, you wouldn't cause problems for anyone else." "Because if I did that, I'd eventually reach a limit. There is no upper bound to human perception――no end to the path toward omnipotence. No matter how transcendental you become, there will always be something that lies ahead." "Take, for example, a certain nun who suddenly turned up among the Burial Agency. Using the sabbath, she became a devil, and so obtained a sense for the higher dimensions, turning functionally almighty in ours. But even she is still bound by her material form――still bound to this universe. As for why―――" 'Fortune may have allowed me to ascend to the seat of the demonic heavens to bring salvation upon all life, yet there I was naught but an insignificant initiate. Though I had tried to gain true sight my whole life, what I finally beheld was not merely the truth of the world, but just how minuscule I was within it. What then was the purpose of my metamorphosis, if all my efforts served to do was demonstrate to me how pitiful I was?' 'As such, I remain here in this world. Small though it may be, I find far greater purpose within myself here than on the other side...' "Quite the silly story. As soon as she became able to sense the 'outside' of the world, she felt her own powerlessness more acutely than ever before. Yet another example that drives home the limits of the individual. I wanted to know everything. Everything there is to know about this ever-expanding universe. As such, it was pertinent for me not to seek strength or happiness on an individual level, but instead a self that continues to exist until the end of the world." His desire contradicts itself. The world will continue to expand. He claims that he sought eternity in order to know everything, but that was doomed to be an endless journey from the start. If what he says is true――― That the world continues to expand and give birth to new things――― Then even if he were to live for an eternity, he could never fully know everything. "No, it is possible. It will definitely have a conclusion. I will definitely reach its conclusion. It is for that reason that we exist. We were born into this world in order to define the eternity that is this universe. If not, there would have been no reason for us to become intelligent. Even if the intelligent life born on this planet belongs to the past, and is far from understanding eternity, as long as the will persists, I shall continue to pursue this ever-changing voyage."

The highlight within the text is that Roa states that there is:

1. 'No end to the path toward omnipotence'
2. 'No matter how transcendental you become, there will always be something that lies ahead'.

As an example to prove his point, he cites Kiara becoming a demon to reach a higher dimension and become omnipotent/almighty within the human dimensions, only to learn how insignificant she is within the Demonic Heavens.

The argument is that if reaching a higher dimension is considered a step within the unending path toward (true) omnipotence, and an example of levels of transcendence that has no upper ceiling, then this implies High 1-B cosmology within the verse.

True Demons which Kiara becomes in some timelines are stated to be higher dimensional beings in materials. Qualitative superiority between dimensions is currently accepted based on evidence compiled here and here.

Can confirm. He was also instructed he was allowed only one comment.

 

[KingNanaya]

Snip

Can confirm. He was also instructed he was allowed only one comment.

Thank you both.

 

[Antvasima]

So what are the conclusions here so far, and is somebody knowledgeable willing to write a summary post of the arguments here please?

 

[KingNanaya]

So what are the conclusions here so far, and is somebody knowledgeable willing to write a summary post of the arguments here please?

Right now, we're trying to gain an agreement on one of the scans in the OP. I'm of the belief that the character in the scans is literally referring to spatial dimensions, and the opposing side believes that the word "Dimension" is not referring to spatial dimensions, and is referring to a higher realm. So far, the only conclusion made is that the translations used were correct.

 

[KingNanaya]

bump

 

[KingNanaya]

bump

 

[KingNanaya]

bump

 

[Deagonx]

Why is it taking forever for staff comments? You should probably message every single staff member at this point.

Very few staff members are actively interested in this verse. However, this is a staff only thread, so you should stop commenting here.

 

[Antvasima]

Right now, we're trying to gain an agreement on one of the scans in the OP. I'm of the belief that the character in the scans is literally referring to spatial dimensions, and the opposing side believes that the word "Dimension" is not referring to spatial dimensions, and is referring to a higher realm. So far, the only conclusion made is that the translations used were correct.

@CrimsonStarFallen @Theglassman12 @DemonGodMitchAubin @Sir_Ovens @CloverDragon03

Are any of you willing to help out here please?