Where Roa's High 1-B Statement Applies, 6 doors Translation, and Where They Both Fit

[SweetDao]

first, Kanji can have different meanings depending on the context of the sentence, as Qawsedf said on a prior page. second, why not use this scan in the album instead of the one that says otherworldly?

Sure, kanji can have different meanings. I use that scan because it was better quality, ultimately, I have the script of the remake, so I just input each iteration into deepL later in the album to show the raw/deepL translation. Ultimately, even in the OG, transcendent was used, so that's fine.

You do need weapons from the church to kill dead apostles.

So every single dead apostles in existence has "4D" durability, right? Either you're claiming that, or your argument falls apart.

he doesn't say a reason for why they are considered transcendent, he just says that they are but they suck at existing

He does say they are revered as transcendent but in his eyes, they regressed because, despite their awesome abilities, they ended up being dependent on blood.

it's a fact that she does have it though

Sure, it's also a fact Shiki didn't state she was a transcendental bloodsucker "because she has it".

there are dead apostles that are tier 1. Roa, Zelretch, Crimson Moon, ORT, Primate Murder, and likely even Altrouge. even dead apostles that aren't tier 1 are able to make things that are tier 1, like the various holy scriptures.

The problem isn't that "some are tier 1", it's if everyone has at least tier 1 potency or not. Can you rightfully state that every single Dead Apostle is at least within the tier 1 range? I feel like some of them aren't tier 1 personally.

I'm fairly certain that marble phantasm is something that is exclusive to vampires and them alone. it is a race exclusive ability by nature. and Yumizuka was a regular high school girl who got turned into a vampire. her getting a reality marble was directly due to, and dependent on, her becoming a vampire.

Exclusive ability of the race or not, it's the ability in itself that made her transcendent. Sure, to get a marble phantasm you have to be a vampire, but to get a transcendental ability, do you need to be a vampire? No, that's the point.

Moreover, be it with Roa's statement about immortality/Vampire or Shiki seeing Noel, neither in those two instances did we had to deal with marble phantasm for the statement to be uttered.

yes, because he was talking about immortality. he was saying that becoming higher-dimensional wouldn't lead him to the immortality that he wants.

Ehhhhhh, I'm not so sure. I think it was more an example of "seeking strength" than about immortality. But regardless of that, in this context, being higher-dimensional becomes a specificity, not a numerical value that can increase.

suffer and cope

Bonus because it's my last post before I extinguish my permission to comment.

I'm claiming that rank 1 and 2 are not vampires, but familiars, and that rank 3 and up can be considered vampires. it even says here:

Tell me, mister Nanaya, when you think of a vampire, what is the first image that comes to your mind? Dracula? Weird gloomy individual that sleep in coffins? I'm sure your definition has to be around this mental portrait.

Now, tell me, would you consider "The Dead", a mindless body just wandering around without an exact purpose (except if they are ordered by a higher individual), a vampire? Certainly not, the closest you would think of is "zombie" or something like that. That's why in your quote, it says "Now, they can finally be called vampire", because it's the commonly accepted image of a vampire, not because before this point they weren't one.

 

[Deagonx]

I'm claiming that rank 1 and 2 are not vampires, but familiars, and that rank 3 and up can be considered vampires. it even says here:

Rank 3 are familiars, and are counted among "the Dead."

 

[KingNanaya]

So every single dead apostles in existence has "4D" durability, right? Either you're claiming that, or your argument falls apart.

so far, yeah. I don't think a dead apostle has been shown to be affected by regular weapons. it's always by blessed weapons from the church.

He does say they are revered as transcendent but in his eyes, they regressed because, despite their awesome abilities, they ended up being dependent on blood.

he says (paraphrasing) despite being lauded as transcendental, they have not evolved, but degraded. it doesn't give a reason for them being transcendental, but gives reasons for why they have degraded.

Sure, it's also a fact Shiki didn't state she was a transcendental bloodsucker "because she has it".

I'm just saying it isn't an incorrect statement.

The problem isn't that "some are tier 1", it's if everyone has at least tier 1 potency or not. Can you rightfully state that every single Dead Apostle is at least within the tier 1 range? I feel like some of them aren't tier 1 personally.

Regeneration (High-Godly; Even if TATARI is completely destroyed, it will return as long as certain conditions are met. Not even the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception can destroy it)

Immortality (Types 1, 3, 6, 7 and 8; TATARI can manifest over and over again no matter how many times it is defeated as long as the conditions for its manifestation are met, and even if Zepia himself is killed and stripped of his powers, it can manifest through other hosts)

both taken from dust of Osiris and Wallachia. and no, I'm not claiming all dead apostles are tier 1, and they don't need to be to prove my point.

Sure, to get a marble phantasm you have to be a vampire, but to get a transcendental ability, do you need to be a vampire? No, that's the point.

yeah, all you have to do is:

almost die
reach the root
use the power of a true ancestor
be a planet
be a literal demon
be a servant
be a counter guardian
put your soul in literal nothingness
be older than 500 years old
coat your skin in the ashes of the buddha
be neco-arc

Ehhhhhh, I'm not so sure. I think it was more an example of "seeking strength" than about immortality.

it could be both

Tell me, mister Nanaya, when you think of a vampire, what is the first image that comes to your mind?

I think of Twilight

Now, tell me, would you consider "The Dead", a mindless body just wandering around without an exact purpose (except if they are ordered by a higher individual), a vampire?

I would not

That's why in your quote, it says "Now, they can finally be called vampire", because it's the commonly accepted image of a vampire, not because before this point they weren't one.

agree to disagree

 

[Antvasima]

So, I'm here. Apologies for the small delay.

Anyhow:

After looking through some of the evidence, as well as being sent this album with some additional context. I've come to agree with the opposition of this thread, yes. It seems the term "transcendental" is actually consistently used to refer to non-Tier 1 things outside of the one monologue that provides the alleged High 1-B statement. Naturally, that means the word isn't strictly used to indicate infinite jumps in power, so, "No matter how transcendental you become" becomes a far weaker statement overall, in light of that.

Put me on disagree.

Thank you for helping out. It seems like this revision has been rejected then.

 

[KingNanaya]

Thank you for helping out. It seems like this revision has been rejected then.

uh, no? it's 3-3-1 right now

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

uh, no? it's 3-3-1 right now

+ ultima hasnt seen or responded to our rebuttal yet

 

[Antvasima]

Which staff members think what here then?

 

[KingNanaya]

Which staff members think what here then?

@Elizhaa @DarkDragonMedeus and @LordGriffin1000 agree

@Firestorm808 @Deagonx and @Ultima_Reality disagree

@Qawsedf234 currently is neutral

 

[GarrixianXD]

@Ultima_Reality disagree

GG, we’re done.

 

[KingNanaya]

GG, we’re done.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

@Elizhaa @DarkDragonMedeus and @LordGriffin1000 agree

@Firestorm808 @Deagonx and @Ultima_Reality disagree

@Qawsedf234 currently is neutral

@Antvasima The vote is split 3-3 with 1 neutral vote.

 

[Antvasima]

@Antvasima The vote is split 3-3 with 1 neutral vote.

@Elizhaa @DarkDragonMedeus @LordGriffin1000 @Firestorm808 @Deagonx @Ultima_Reality @Qawsedf234

Can you all try to reach some form of agreement please, possibly a compromise?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I'll respond to the latest posts in short order. As the discussion goes on, we can see if anyone has changed opinions or not.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Alright

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I'll respond to the latest posts in short order. As the discussion goes on, we can see if anyone has changed opinions or not.

Can you do that now?

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Can you do that now?

@Ultima_Reality

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

bump

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

bump

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

@Ultima_Reality

 

[Antvasima]

I'll respond to the latest posts in short order. As the discussion goes on, we can see if anyone has changed opinions or not.

@Ultima_Reality

 

[GyroNutz]

I don't have much experience with tier 1 stuff or any experience with this verse. However, from reading through the thread, I'm leaning towards the argument that "transcendental" refers to things outside of qualitative superiority, and that therefore the premise for High 1-B is weak at best.

 

[KingNanaya]

bro, I don't want toa talk about vampires anymore, so I'll talk about why I believe transcendence in this specific text is referring to qualitative superiority.

1. He references a character that is tier 1 as an example of someone that is transcendent

Kiara Sessyoin

Kiara Sessyoin (殺せっ生しょう院いんキアラ, Sesshōin Kiara?) is the Master of Caster in Fate/Extra CCC and the game's true antagonist. She is also known as the "Devil's Bodhisattva" and the "Last Prophet". She also appears in Fate/Grand Order as Beast III/R, the Beast of Pleasure representing Lust. Tier...

vsbattles.fandom.com

2. the gap between dimensions is likened to that of reality and fiction (a lot of text, my bad)

You would call it the difference between “recognized time” and “recorded time,” I guess. See, right now we’re standing here talking, and that’s the present, right? But, …one, two, three, and. Right. So now the previous me…what I said three seconds ago has become the “past.” Even though we’re still in the middle of the “same conversation.” That’s the flow of time according to your cognizance. Humans divide time and space into past, present, and future according to their own cognizance. That’s the very simple physical law of observed space. As we can’t see what will come after the present, there fluctuations in related parties can change the future. It’s too late now, but the real world and the near side of the moon are both operated as this observed universe. You understand so far?


Rin :: On the other hand, the laws of the recorded universe are different. The perception of the recorded universe is over many dimensions…think of it as a higher dimensional existence. From this higher dimension, the third dimension looks like a flat scroll. Er, if the three-dimensional world is a world drawn in a book, and then if you jumped inside the book and came out outside the book, something like that? And then you’re able to look down on any point in your past, present, and future from when you were inside the book, as a record — that’s the higher dimensional perspective. You get it? Under these circumstances, all time inside the book becomes equivalent. Since you can always turn to whatever time you want to. There’s no past or future. It’s the same as that.

3. he states that becoming transcendent is like becoming omnipotent

4. the dude put his soul inside a tier 1 space, and also made his soul resistant to it so he doesn't get erased from existence. he has knowledge on how higher dimensions work

Existence Erasure and Absorption (His soul can pass through the Swirl Of The Root without being erased or absorbed)

5. during the last parts of the true ending, during the fight between Arcueid and Ciel and Shiki, Arcueid spams an ability that essentially flattens time from a 4D perspective to a 2D one.

6. dimensions are described as having infinitely more space

 

[KingNanaya]

also, yeah, I did a poor job making this crt. past me makes me disappointed

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I'll respond to the latest posts in short order. As the discussion goes on, we can see if anyone has changed opinions or not.

@Ultima_Reality Progress?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I guess there was a bit of a delay, but oh well. I really ought to be somewhere else right now but I guess it doesn't hurt to cover smaller stuff instead of leaving it dangling all around.

Vampires are basically immortal, only being able to be killed by the Church's conceptual holy weapons, incredibly potent magecraft, or servants. all of which are currently accepted as 4D. despite this, however, the rely on human blood in order to continue their existence. if they don't drink blood, they literally cease to exist. there are also those who become dead apostles and become crazy due to their hunger for blood.

I'm fairly certain she's able to use marble phantasm, which is essentially reality warping, at a lower extent than Arcueid.

Arcueid, who is currently the only True Ancestor we see in the story, is tier 1. there are also tier 1 Dead Apostles, like Roa and Zelretch

So, first reply to my post, and we have three points here. My reservations with them are:

a) The point about reliance on human blood seems irrelevant, so I will set it aside. With that said: The point here seems to be that Vampires have some abilities (Or resistance to abilities) that are 4-D in scale, and thus describing them as "transcendental" isn't incorrect in light of that.

Unfortunately this doesn't seem like sufficient justification, since "transcendental" is a term that is being used to refer to Vampires as a whole, and not specifically to their higher-dimensional abilities, from what I can gather. So if everything regarding them, including their non-4-D abiliies, is called "transcendental," than that does indeed mean the word isn't being used to refer to infinite jumps in power, regardless of whether or not higher-dimensional jumps are also included in that umbrella.

b) Not sure how that ties into the point, exactly, but I'll assume it's similar to the above, in which case it merits a similar answer as well.

c) You said "There are also Dead Apostles who are Tier 1." That implies there are Dead Apostles who aren't Tier 1. If said Dead Apostles are still grouped under the "Transcendental" bunch, then the point in a) applies here too.

Marshadow unfortunately appears to have left our midst after being criticized once (This is a joke), but he did bring up something of a rebuttal to this point, which is: "Let's assume this is true. Why point out her higher dimensional abilities or her in the first place? Common magecraft isnt typically called Transcendental.." But this nevertheless falls under the same above point: If "transcendental" is just being used to mean "superordinate" or "stronger" (Which it certainly seems to be), then higher-dimensional things certainly fall under that label and mentioning them as falling under it is not at all strange.
The argument in favor of the upgrades, however, only succeeds if higher-dimensional things are all that fall under this label, which doesn't appear to be the case.

Now:

bro, I don't want toa talk about vampires anymore, so I'll talk about why I believe transcendence in this specific text is referring to qualitative superiority.

1. He references a character that is tier 1 as an example of someone that is transcendent

Kiara Sessyoin

Kiara Sessyoin (殺せっ生しょう院いんキアラ, Sesshōin Kiara?) is the Master of Caster in Fate/Extra CCC and the game's true antagonist. She is also known as the "Devil's Bodhisattva" and the "Last Prophet". She also appears in Fate/Grand Order as Beast III/R, the Beast of Pleasure representing Lust. Tier...

vsbattles.fandom.com

2. the gap between dimensions is likened to that of reality and fiction (a lot of text, my bad)

3. he states that becoming transcendent is like becoming omnipotent

4. the dude put his soul inside a tier 1 space, and also made his soul resistant to it so he doesn't get erased from existence. he has knowledge on how higher dimensions work

5. during the last parts of the true ending, during the fight between Arcueid and Ciel and Shiki, Arcueid spams an ability that essentially flattens time from a 4D perspective to a 2D one.

6. dimensions are described as having infinitely more space

I know you're tired of talking about Vampires, but, unfortunately, they seem relevant here, since they're a case of the term "Transcendental" also being slapped onto things that don't constitute an infinite jump in power. If Roa's monologue was all there was to take into account, I'd be a lot more open to accepting it as potentially High 1-B, as I did before, but the additional context looks like it kills that.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I guess there was a bit of a delay, but oh well. I really ought to be somewhere else right now but I guess it doesn't hurt to cover smaller stuff instead of leaving it dangling all around.






So, first reply to my post, and we have three points here. My reservations with them are:

a) The point about reliance on human blood seems irrelevant, so I will set it aside. With that said: The point here seems to be that Vampires have some abilities (Or resistance to abilities) that are 4-D in scale, and thus describing them as "transcendental" isn't incorrect in light of that.

Unfortunately this doesn't seem like sufficient justification, since "transcendental" is a term that is being used to refer to Vampires as a whole, and not specifically to their higher-dimensional abilities, from what I can gather. So if everything regarding them, including their non-4-D abiliies, is called "transcendental," than that does indeed mean the word isn't being used to refer to infinite jumps in power, regardless of whether or not higher-dimensional jumps are also included in that umbrella.

b) Not sure how that ties into the point, exactly, but I'll assume it's similar to the above, in which case it merits a similar answer as well.

c) You said "There are also Dead Apostles who are Tier 1." That implies there are Dead Apostles who aren't Tier 1. If said Dead Apostles are still grouped under the "Transcendental" bunch, then the point in a) applies here too.

Marshadow unfortunately appears to have left our midst after being criticized once (This is a joke), but he did bring up something of a rebuttal to this point, which is: "Let's assume this is true. Why point out her higher dimensional abilities or her in the first place? Common magecraft isnt typically called Transcendental.." But this nevertheless falls under the same above point: If "transcendental" is just being used to mean "superordinate" or "stronger" (Which it certainly seems to be), then higher-dimensional things certainly fall under that label and mentioning them as falling under it is not at all strange.
The argument in favor of the upgrades, however, only succeeds if higher-dimensional things are all that fall under this label, which doesn't appear to be the case.

Now:


I know you're tired of talking about Vampires, but, unfortunately, they seem relevant here, since they're a case of the term "Transcendental" also being slapped onto things that don't constitute an infinite jump in power. If Roa's monologue was all there was to take into account, I'd be a lot more open to accepting it as potentially High 1-B, as I did before, but the additional context looks like it kills that.

@Elizhaa @DarkDragonMedeus @LordGriffin1000 @Qawsedf234

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Ultima sounds reasonable.

 

[Deagonx]

Agreed. Chef Ultima is in the kitchen.

 

[KingNanaya]

I know you're tired of talking about Vampires, but, unfortunately, they seem relevant here

Unfortunately this doesn't seem like sufficient justification, since "transcendental" is a term that is being used to refer to Vampires as a whole, and not specifically to their higher-dimensional abilities, from what I can gather. So if everything regarding them, including their non-4-D abiliies, is called "transcendental," than that does indeed mean the word isn't being used to refer to infinite jumps in power, regardless of whether or not higher-dimensional jumps are also included in that umbrella.

I guess that makes sense then, yeah.

b) Not sure how that ties into the point, exactly, but I'll assume it's similar to the above, in which case it merits a similar answer as well.

it was essentially the other point, yeah

I know you're tired of talking about Vampires, but, unfortunately, they seem relevant here, since they're a case of the term "Transcendental" also being slapped onto things that don't constitute an infinite jump in power. If Roa's monologue was all there was to take into account, I'd be a lot more open to accepting it as potentially High 1-B, as I did before, but the additional context looks like it kills that.

it really does feel like there is a decent amount of context that supports it and destroys it at the same time. I still think that the events of the route for the true ending could support credibility to High 1-B, but if it isn't enough then it isn't enough.

 

[Deagonx]

Can we close this then?

 

[KingNanaya]

my inner contrarian wants to say no so bad
it's fine to close this. I'm gonna count the amount of times the word vampire was said and see how many times it was said in Twilight

 

[Deagonx]

Closing now

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you to everybody who helped out here.