Tier 0 Swirl of the Root Retake

[Agnaa]

This is a false mistranslation. Nowhere in the raw scans does it even remotely imply that the Counter Force takes the shape of the Akashic records.

@Wankbreaker I might be missing something, since I only looked at part of it and aren't familiar with the verse at all, but this passes the sniff test. Looking at the portion of the raws in contention (located around the middle of the third paragraph Tdjwo linked) here:

……この両者は目的が同じだが、その性質は微妙に異なる。世界そのものの本能がアカシックレコードに触れる者を律するのは、たんに今の地球を支配しているのが人間だからにすぎない。

The first sentence looks like a good enough match for "Both have the same goal, but this variety has one key difference.", and the second one looks like a close enough match for "The Counter Force mandates that one who touches the Akashic Record shall control the world.", but I'm not sure where "It takes the shape of the Akashic Record." comes from. Can you point out where that would be?

 

[Wankbreaker]

@Wankbreaker I might be missing something, since I only looked at part of it and aren't familiar with the verse at all, but this passes the sniff test. Looking at the portion of the raws in contention (located around the middle of the third paragraph Tdjwo linked) here:

The first sentence looks like a good enough match for "Both have the same goal, but this variety has one key difference.", and the second one looks like a close enough match for "The Counter Force mandates that one who touches the Akashic Record shall control the world.", but I'm not sure where "It takes the shape of the Akashic Record." comes from. Can you point out where that would be?

I’ve checked both the light and web novel versions after being given them by a user offsite, the “taking the shape” part is absent, it seems

 

[Wankbreaker]

Got my perms from @Antvasima

The current proposition Deagonx defends is that the Swirl of the root only negates physical descriptions rather than 'placeness'; the root is either an abstract say, a universal of some sort or a physical place or neither. Any given abstract entity is reducible to some given semiotic reference and is nothingness insofar as it's not composed of physical complexity and not an entity or force of spatial or temporal extent, but it remains as something insofar as it's composed of metaphysical complexity and is intelligible in of itself (something akin to information or information itself.

This happens to be the case when analyzing different types of simplicities, wherein simplicity to a point where "all descriptions are meaningless" intrinsically falls under Hyper-noetic simplicity as described by Plotinus or what people call absolute divine simplicity, which is Tier 0 specifically. Given the fact that the root negates the notion of being because it is nothingness and, therefore, non-being. It is not something, but it cannot be nothingness insofar as it is merely not composed of physical complexity and a force of spatial and temporal extent, given the fact that it is said that "nothingness is absent" here.

Yeah, no. Angra's pathway to the root at the end of hollow is explicitly connected by spatial positions.
And as stated in the OP, it is at the "top" of dimensional theory, not "beyond" or "above it.

the scan

Infact, it isnt truly "outside" of the world, as it is some outer boundary or "periphery" of sorts.

根源への到達
魔術用語
「世界」の外郭にあるという、この世のすべてが記録された、万物の始まりにして終焉の場所。あらゆる魔術師たちの最終目標であり、始まりの御三家もまた、根源に至るために聖杯召喚システムを構築した。



"Reaching the Root
Mage Terminology
A place said to be at the periphery of the 'world,' where everything in this world is recorded, being the beginning and end of all things. It is the ultimate goal for all mages, and the founding three families also constructed the Holy Grail summoning system to reach the Root"

Additionally, Shiki then says description serves no purpose. Note that abstract entities are intelligible; this does not appear to be intelligible whatsoever. Arcueid makes it clear as well that it is neither reducible to a record nor information; it just is.

Speaking of information, the main response provided for Akasha being information is just wrong. Satsuki Kurogiri doesn't take information from Akasha, if you read a little deeper into the text. They directly say it's records of the world/planet, the Infosphere, that contains memories of the planet. Something the world records, closer to the concept of the Akashic Records but on a lower level than it.

Nope.
Q: Caster's "Divine Words" and Kara no Kyoukai's Kurogiri Satsuki's "Unified Language," are the same thing right?

A: They are seemingly different. Divine Words, so to speak, was an advance incantation language used in various mythological times. It cannot be reproduced with human vocal organs.
The "Unified Language" is the "truth," people had before they were separated.

Also:

“... Hmm. As expected, it seems it didn’t have much effect on you personally. Your body, which is connected to the Root, and my words are of the same rank. But all I need to do is this. Here, even someone like Ryougi Shiki cannot see death. ... Well, admittedly, in this situation, I can't see a thing myself.”
「……ふむ。やはり君個人には効きが薄かったか。根源に通じている君の体と私の言葉は同じ階級だからね。だがそれもこうすればいいだけのことだ。ここでは、たとえ両儀式であろうとも死を視る事はできない。……まあもっとも、こうなっては私本人も何ひとつ見る事ができないんだけどね」

How would they be at the same level as Shiki Ryougi's body/ Void Shiki, if they did not connect to the root, but a lower level phenomena?

Ill reply to the rest later, when im not busy.

 

[Tdjwo]

I'm replying to Deagonx. I'm not replying to multiple people just to clutter the thread again. Did you ask for permissions?

@Antvasima

 

[KingNanaya]

"Reaching the Root
Mage Terminology
A place said to be at the periphery of the 'world,' where everything in this world is recorded, being the beginning and end of all things. It is the ultimate goal for all mages, and the founding three families also constructed the Holy Grail summoning system to reach the Root"

Another source says this:

Reaching the Root​

magecraft term
The Root, a record of everything in the universe, is said to reside outside the World. It is the beginning and end of all creation. It is the ultimate goal of all magi. The Three Founding Families created the Holy Grail War system as a means to reach the Root.

this is from what I've found here.

 

[Firestorm808]

Translating the Raw on DeepL and Jisho says

"located on the outer edge of "the world.""

外郭 - Jisho.org

jisho.org

 

[Wankbreaker]

Correct me if im wrong, but is there a reason for a Root profile anymore? The only character it directly scaled to is Shiki Ryougi, and she does not scale to it any longer.
The root also can take no action whatsoever to fight, or "do" anything really, at least that's what is currently accepted on it's profile.

Theres no use for a Root profile as of now.

 

[KingNanaya]

Theres no use for a Root profile as of now.

there currently isn't a cosmology blog for the verse, so it would be good to keep it until one is made

 

[Wankbreaker]

there currently isn't a cosmology blog for the verse, so it would be good to keep it until one is made

You can archive it on a sandbox, and port it, no?

 

[KingNanaya]

You can archive it on a sandbox, and port it, no?

it'd be best to determine that after the outcome of this thread

 

[Tdjwo]

@Ultima_Reality

Can you stop Wankbreaker from commenting or clogging up the thread? They've made multiple comments now without asking for permissions. Deleting their comments would also be beneficial.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Can you stop Wankbreaker from commenting or clogging up the thread? They've made multiple comments now without asking for permissions. Deleting their comments would also be beneficial.

I’ve received permission from Antvasima weeks ago, not like I need to ask for it now anyway.

 

[Tdjwo]

I’ve received permission from Antvasima weeks ago, not like I need to ask for it now anyway.

Yes you need to ask for it every time you make a comment. That's how it works. Asking for a permission for a different comment weeks ago doesn't mean it's still granted for newer ones.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Yes you need to ask for it every time you make a comment. That's how it works. Asking for a permission for a different comment weeks ago doesn't mean it's still granted for newer ones.

bureaucrats are allowed to give permission for unlimited comments, unless you’re explicitly told a specific number.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

bureaucrats are allowed to give permission for unlimited comments, unless you’re explicitly told a specific number.

This is correct, by the way.

 

[Tdjwo]

bureaucrats are allowed to give permission for unlimited comments, unless you’re explicitly told a specific number.

Ant didn't give you unlimited permissions now, did he? Show a screenshot that says you had the permissions to comment infinitely. Even @Deagonx already told you earlier to stop clogging up the thread but you didn't listen.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Ant didn't give you unlimited permissions now, did he? Show a screenshot that says you had the permissions to comment infinitely. Even @Deagonx already told you earlier to stop clogging up the thread but you didn't listen.

You’re clogging up the thread by quite frankly, focusing on things that do not matter, instead of the arguments that were brought up. I’ve received permission from him, and he did not cite a specific number.
I won’t continue any further on this particular point.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Ant didn't give you unlimited permissions now, did he? Show a screenshot that says you had the permissions to comment infinitely. Even @Deagonx already told you earlier to stop clogging up the thread but you didn't listen.

This is not productive. Ant gave permission, which is assumed to be indefinite. Please stop.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

You see, even you are assuming it was "indefinite" when that was never stated to be the case. Literally everytime a permission is given, it always applies once regardless who gives it and would always be required to ask for perms again to make another comment. Not only did Ant never explicitly claim the perms were permanent, but Deagon himself already told him to stop commenting earlier.

Please stop, or I will have to start getting your comments deleted.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I'm not enforcing anything. Literally all I've been saying is that Wank didn't ask for perms and also already got told to stop posting comments. But you keep ignoring everything.

If you believe Wankbreaker is in the wrong, report them in the RVT. I'm trying to stop people from derailing this thread.

 

[Wankbreaker]

This is a peculiar statement, where does this come from again? I don't think I've seen this anywhere, nor that it would be problematic if anyone bothered to read it. The “truth” in question is the root, and the energy obtained from it is “true ether”. Explains why it vanishes from the surface after the Age of Gods, as mages don’t exist along side “truth”. I'm quite confused. Is the analog supposed to be isomorphism? Saying it was as if some x is the case, is then saying x is the case? This is just an analogy, not it isn't to say the root has mana.


If anyone really cared to do it, in a similar vein anybody can manipulate Kanji to create sentences that diverge from the original context to suit their narrative, the root either is true ether or emanates true ether, if the root is true ether, then the root is mana not a world, but the root is a world albeit an ultimate reality, so the root is not mana.
If the root is mana, then what you said previously, in regards to ancient mages regarding it as a commonplace is then wrong as well, because true ether is not a place it is mana. This further implies Ryougi is wrong in regards to her experience of the root, she once again she says its the same nothingness that expands everywhere and anywhere, but if the root is true ether and true ether doesn't exist in the surface texture, then the root doesn't expand anywhere and everywhere.
I could bring up more issues and internal inconsistencies with the propositions at hand, so please consider the implications of your positions instead of arguing in jest.
In any case the notion of mage's being closer to the root and so forth in the age of gods?

I never said "the Root is true ether", but True Ether is energy that directly comes from it (which is expliclity said). This statement also comes from a magazine, so it isnt a character making a statement. It "expanding" everywhere is in context of everything having a thin sliver that traces back to it.

Yeah, that's a hypothesis. It's a rumor discerned through understanding how, as time progresses, fewer paths towards the root persist within the world. Of course, this isn't to say all of it is wrong. I do think it's correct to say true magic was more common at the time than it is now. That is as far as a person can ascertain about the relationship between the root and contingent beings at the time.
I wouldn't go as far as to say, "They were close to it, and it was commonplace for them". Considering that even if you have those paths, the world still continues to attempt to stop you from reaching the root. Which strangely enough, it is said that no mage has ever actually even beat the world when it came to reaching the root and every magus died trying to reach the root through that path, of course true magic existing by no means even entails that you reached the root, when you reach the root you gain true magic, but that isn't to say you gain true magic only if you reach the root. There are various circumstances where true magic was gained without reaching the root.

The reason why the counterforce attacks whoever tries is because humans currently rule the world. This is said in KNK.... and the AOG is before this change.

Also:

There are various circumstances where true magic was gained without reaching the root.

cite.

Alba outlines how aiming for something that may or may not exist is pointless, as its possible to intrude upon the domain of God, all you have to do is devote yourself to gnosis, which is just mystical knowledge or esoteric knowledge by participation with the divine. In fact second magic magic and fourth magic wasn't gained through reaching it, it was made for reaching it, which of course still doesn't imply reaching it and coming back or standing next to as if it was some location, located "somewhere".

This is wrong. All true magic is achieved by reaching the root, thats why Aoko says there were 5 paths left in the modern era. The difference is if the magic needed to made for reaching it (cause) , or if it was gained afterward (effect). And as far as we know, Alba could be talking about an entirely different concept.

Even for fifth magic, it was reached through the gate of Akasha. But even then, nothing implies the word 'reach' means approaching a specific coordinate. Aoko was asked by Touko, how it was to touch the Swirl of the root, as she presumed that the Swirl of the root was reached and touched to gain true magic, as per the rumors go. Aoko's response was, "she doesn't remember anything". Which coincides with the understanding Touko has later on as to what it means to reach the Swirl of the root itself.

Aoko's limited understanding of it is limited and almost nonexistent, despite having reached it, as she actually did inherit a path not the magic itself and she directly says she went to this 'path'. But despite that, as Touko says, it's only reached through emptiness but you're not aware of it, for all we know it's perfectly fine and conceivable, and in fact, I'd go as far as to say feasible that it's not reached in a similar way as a place in a given coordinate system is reached.
This is then further demonstrated in the next chapter as Aoko explains what the Swirl of the root is; she begins by saying, 'If you touch it and understand it, it can make the impossible possible.' Thereafter she says there haven't been any survivors who went there and came back alive and that 'there's no proof that it's the seat of Gods' and that 'nobody has come into contact with it and talked about it, because the soul returns back into nothingness', which leaves us with two alternatives.

Magicians don't actually come in contact with the Swirl of the root or this understand of it is false, considering that she says 'there's no proof it's x'.
She then says she knows alot about it because there was a person who reached and came back, this person presumably became God, right after she said there's no proof for this given possibility being true. This is made to specifically address her saying its possible for mage's to stand next to it, as she says it mage's stabilize their mage craft by standing next to it.
This understanding of the root from her perspective, for a person who is presumed to have reached it in a similar vein as reaching a place in a given coordinate system, when forced to speak about it. Instead of referring to her experience of it, she instead uses superstition. So she either knows about it as she experienced it or she didn't, but she says she doesn't remember it. So with the given evidence she doesn't know about, she knows there's a path but that same path is not something she knows to be reached as if the root was spatial.

Im quoting from the OP, because i believe this handles this portion. Keep in mind, several guidebooks and statements say the ultimate goal of mages is to seek true magic or in other cases, reach the root, which would be contradictory....unless they were one and the same goal.

And later on, obtaining True Magic is described as "To see, touch and understand" the Root:

English: "The place where all knowledge is recorded, where all matters are settled. To see, touch, and understand it makes even the impossible possible. It has gone by many names over the years, but you could say it's where God lives."

Japanese: 根源の渦っていうのは、全ての叡知えいちが記録された位置、全ての事柄が決定された場所。そこを見て、触れて、理解できれば不可能なんて言葉すら作り替えられる。伝承によって呼び名は様々だけど、ようするに神さまのいる位置なんでしょうね

Magic, True Magic, isn't just some manuscript derived from the Swirl of the Root like magecraft is, but something that comes directly from the Root itself."

"As for the Swirl of the Root, well... The simplest way I can describe it so you'll understand is to compare it to the sun. The Sun is really far away, and has been there from the beginning as far as we're concerned. Without it, you and I wouldn't be able to live."

"Magecraft merely lets us take advantage of the Sun's benefits, so to speak. Magecraft is all about imitating or paying for natural phenomena. We can use it to study, practice, and recreate Mystics-mysteries-but it can never truly create them. Actually, no matter how much you learn, you eventually hit a wall. It's like a limiter that human knowledge can never overcome."

"And beyond that wall is where Magic, the Sun itself, exists. To attain it means to go where no one can go, and awaken miracles no one could possibly reproduce. A technique to make things happen that humanity could never hope to accomplish with any amount of time or resources... that's True Magic."

"It's about overcoming that dimensional wall-like, running until you reach the end where you'll find a world with completely different rules from ours. That's the only way you can, well, learn it."

"I told you before that magecraft has no limits, right? Well I meant that it has no limits within the scope of human knowledge. Meanwhile, Magic has lots of limits; as in, it can only do one thing, and one thing alone. Makes sense, right? I mean, we're talking about unique, rule-breaking concepts and mechanisms that exist outside the boundaries of the very universe."

"So... Magic is more amazing than magecraft. I think I get the general idea but... It's really limited?"

"Kinda. It's more like an exception a special privilege or an abuse of power. It's not versatile but in making the impossible possible it's all-powerful as far as magecraft is concerned." "Magic is like a reward a mage gets when reaching the Swirl of the Root and that even goes for mages who don't possess the mettle to wield it. Just making a path to the Root gives them free reign to use it in magecraft terms. In short it's like becoming the richest person in the world."

"The richest person in the world... In which case does it mean that no matter how rich you are only the richest person gets to have Magic?"

"...I guess so sure. ...Sometimes you sure get to the right conclusion from the weirdest of places. It's like you said-there are many routes and theories to reach the Root but unless you're first to the post Magic will elude you. No matter how good you are if you're not the first you're everyone else."

"There are only five... no four Magicians. And there are only four because once that path to the Root has been taken by one Magician it's closed off to all others. But it wasn't always like that in ancient times. Ironically mankind is responsible for closing off the paths to the Root; we've built walls that stand between us and the 'truth.'"

"The mages of old could never have imagined that the more we explored the unknown the more paths we would seal off. But the result was exactly that and by the time they realized it it was too late. After all that studying True Magic had all but disappeared from the world."

In fact 'paths' don't require you to blow a hole to the outside of the world beyond, 'paths' exist in points that don't even go outside, they are just there. We also know "reaching the root" doesn't mean actually physically going to the outside of the world as it consistently interpreted.
As when Aoko activates True Magic, they liken activation of True Magic itself to be reaching the root itself, then she has an extensive dialogue about how the act of activating true magic, means to abandon thought and how she wanted to reach to disappear into an empty, thoughtlessness place as she continued to seek to activate true magic deep within herself, the same place she arrived in without any answers (the Swirl of the root).
We know its the Swirl of the root, because right after they after they say that she fuses with 'the consciousness' that hurtles back in time to 'Zero.'
The analysis of the path can be found here and here.
So as far as we know, creating a pathway has never been explicitly defined in a literal sense to be creating a portal, as far the Mahoyo is even concerned (the closest we've ever been to getting a description of the path). Going through a pathway or creating a pathway to the root involves a contemplative effort, rather than going physically to the root.

This is again false, as it is said the hole to the root Araya can create would result in a CG coming from the other side.

"--- Are you trying to open the road to the origin?

But, how? Even if you don't set out a magical ward to testify that you aren't a mage, you can't fool the will of the dominant race. The only ones you can fool by using a technological ward are other mages. If you use this building a path will definitely open. Since its the realization of the Taeguekdo, a hole would certainly appear. But the first thing to come out of that hole will be a Counter Guardian. As long as we are who we are, there is no way we can stand up to that."

"--- The Counter Force is already acting. The fact that you are in this city. The man who came to rob an empty house for no reason, as if he was possessed by something. The woman who was assaulted and killed on this road that has never known such things in the past. I tried this hard to hide my activities, but the Counter Force has already acted three times.

But that is all. I will not be going any closer to the origin. The many failures I have experienced will not go to waste. There was a time when I didn't know of the power called the Counter Force and tried to open a path, but I couldn't fool its eyes. One time I attempted this with a way to overthrow the Counter Force itself, but it always appeared with strength greater that any I could bring to bear.

There is only one conclusion. I do not have the ability."

-Baka Tsuki. In case a certain user tries to object, I proof read it, and the raw text says nearly the exact same thing.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Received additional permission from @Dereck03

It was possible to transform one thing into another, but it was impossible to produce something from nothing.
However, the essence of magecraft as a discipline was to challenge that "Nothingness", and endeavor towards the impossible. Large-scale spells such as the so-called Grand Sorceries, Grand Rituals were really purposeless if not for attempting to reach " " (Kara) or True Magic.
Kara no Kyoukai was a story of one magus' attempt at challenging "Nothingness".

So no, True Magic is not unrelated to the Root.

Regardless, should there be a separate thread for the antifeats that may block the Root from even keeping its 1-A tier? ( anti-feats that would downgrade it from its current tier, and not the one being proposed)
There are quite a few of them that need to be discussed.

a seperate question for Ultima. Can something/someone "embody" a tier 0?

 

[KingNanaya]

Regardless, should there be a separate thread for the antifeats that may block the Root from even keeping its 1-A tier?

If you mean downgrading and keeping it downgraded, then no, that is not allowed unless there is a discussion rule made.

 

[Antvasima]

What are the staff conclusions here so far?

 

[Wankbreaker]

What are the staff conclusions here so far?

so far? none. (this is why I decided to seperate the discussion)