When They Cry Revisions

[DarkLK]

Keep in mind that this is primarily the VN from Key, so there will be a looot of "slice of life" things.

By the way, among the specific anime scenes (Ryukishi himself worked o) there is such thing. The fact that the will creates the future is the concept of Lambda.

 

[FateAlbane]

I'm in the process of reading through Rewrite myself due to DLK's recommendation, but I left continuing it for after i'm done with OMKC. This particular set of scans sent me back to that situation with Bernkastel in Higurashi's OVA.

 

[First_Witch]

This was an really pleasent read. And it explains your hierachy of concept chart way easier to grasp now. Thanks for it and keep up the good work.

 

[DarkLK]

Now about the conceptual beings. Conceptual higher beings in particular.

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On the example of Beatrice, we see that she and her territory is one whole.


It is this territory, the game board that determines the limit of existence and power, the limit of evolution.

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This applies not only to the actual limit of available possibilities and realm borders in the higher domain, but also to hierarchical borders. That is, there is a highest layer in a separate territory.


The lack of restrictions on the territory is the reason for the power of the Voyagers.


Voyagers do not have territories. However, this only means that they are not limited to territories.

People usually think that they are so strong because they can travel endlessly along the hierarchy to the Creator. But actually the opposite is true. They can travel through the infinite hierarchy to the Creator, because they are so strong. They could not evolve endlessly if their territory had not spread to those heights. That is why they identify with the whole world and say that they are superior to it. This is not related to their unstable manifestations, but this refers to their unconscious conceptual nature.

Their laws are will and humility. Potentials of fate and its crystallization. Life and death. Lambda is responsible for those things that can be changed by the will, for the possibilities of the future. Bern, on the contrary, makes one reconcile himself with fate, which leads to inevitability.

Inquisitors serve the only God, but they also obey Voyangers/Senators. Why?

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Bernkastel ÒÇîÒüØÒüåÒéêÒÇéÒÇì

It is assumed that their roles for the Universe are related to God itself.

Although even manifestations at least have transcendental perception. For example, we have Beatrice, whose inner evolution makes it possible to surpass the entire Domain of Witches. But she cannot even understand and realize it. And can not leave its territory, where there is the highest layer, which limits the ability to create a higher manifestation. And although Beatrice herself is not even aware of this, Bernkastel, even through her manifestation from the Witches Domain, is able to understand Beatrice's internal potential.

 

[FateAlbane]

I have two bits of a question, myself, this time - now that this has fallen into territory matters.

Particularly during the Siege of the Golden Land and Lambdadelta taking Battler and Ange to the city of books, she has a few pieces of dialogue that have me wondering.

"For example, we have Beatrice, whose inner evolution makes it possible to surpass the entire Domain of Witches. But she cannot even understand and realize it. And can not leave its territory, where there is the highest layer, which limits the ability to create a higher manifestation."

I also originally thought that, but then we have Lambdadelta with the following exchange in the City of Books:

Battler: "...This is one freakishly huge library..."

Ange: "I've heard that each one of these books has a tale like ours inside it."

Battler: "After all, this is a world of gods."

Lambda: "You can tell at a glance that it's no place for scum like you to be in, right?"

After passing through the barrier, the three of them had finally made it inside the City of Books. For some time, they were overcome by the countless otherworldly sights before them, but they quickly remembered their original objective.

Lambda: "Are you listening? First off, don't get the wrong idea. You two came here to fight Bern, but that doesn't mean walking up to her and attacking her directly, okay?"

Battler: "...We know."

Lambda: "In the first place, you were only able to fight the Great Beatrice on an even footing because the game board protected you with rules that made it that way. If you leave the game board, you're more like something that'll leave a small stain on her palm when she swats you. Don't forget that, got it?"

Ange: "...Makes sense. This isn't the game board we're familiar with."

Taking into account that this was Game Master!Battler, that statement got me a bit confused. As Beatrice *currently* is, Lambdadelta's quote makes it seem like she too could actually be out of the gameboard, questioning the idea of her being unable to get herself unbound by the limitations of the board.

This in itself wouldn't get me confused, but again and not long after this, one Staff Cat passes them by and while they are hiding, Ange and Battler ask Lambda if they should fight them. Lambda again, says:

"I'd advise against it. Maybe if this were some other territory or game board, but this is Bern's home base. That single cat should make you as scared as being surrounded by a crowd of vicious beasts. Plus, they're cats. They've got good senses, and they'll call for their friends. If they spot you, you'd better be prepared for what happens next. I'm not going to save you. Just taking you here has been troublesome enough."

-----

...She tells that, again, to Ange and GameMaster!Battler. But later down the road, we have Eva!Beatrice fodderizing many (countless?) of the exact same cats in a single paragraph.

"The reaction from the cats was lightning fast. They realized instantly that this was hostile behavior. The entire emerald green constellation writhed and became a single, massive, deep-sea fish, which charged at EVA with its massive mouth open wide. However, at the same time, the red lines on the floor and ceiling... the massive spiderweb... pinched itself together and crushed the fish, twisted it, spun it around and around, and compressed it to the size of a small ball. Then, that ball-shaped thing burst open, leaving nothing left. It all happened in an instant."

My question here is how exactly this happened and how this applies to their standing in the verse and the whole power in-territory/out of territory question. Because these events seem to throw the notion a bit into disarray - as far as I understand and going by Lambda's own dialogue, Eva!Beatrice clearly displays power superior to the limits of the Game Board when she fodderizes the cats in the City of Books, and she shouldn't be that far from (current) Beato. In fact, I think she was portrayed as inferior. I also don't think she was superior to GM!Battler either, which means they should be capable of the same. BUT then this sort of seems to clash directly with Lambda's quote or the lore in regards to them being inferior to beings on this level when outside the gameboard and its rules.

If she had just mentioned Bernkastel I would understand, but she applied the same idea to Beatrice herself and Bern's cats. Normally I would take that to mean that in the case of a battle, the swarm of cats should fodderize EVA instead of EVA fodderizing the cats in a single attack until it happened.

Is this an inconsistency, is their power actually not really that limited regardless, or is there something I'm missing here?

 

[The_Causality]

Woa

Very Good Job guys

 

[DarkLK]

FateAlbane,

If I remember correctly, Eva at that moment had the same status as Erika. That is, she was Bern's piece and part of Umineko story at the same time.

In addition, Eva killed many cats, but the true power of these creatures is their fusion. Leviathan of cats brings some trouble even to Lambda, so it really makes sense to fear the army of cats.

 

[DarkLK]

There is also this thing/

 

[FateAlbane]

Ah, so Eva at that point was in a higher manifestation strong enough to fodderize the cats?

I recall her being summoned by Bern and also Ange at two distinct points, but yes: While I don't remember the exact moment where this was stated, she was Bern's piece at this point.

I came close to thinking of that for a moment as justification for the feat, but then I was reminded that GM!Battler fought Erika for a while before that happened - then again, that battle occurred within the Gameboard so it would stand to reason that Erika was limited there. Unlike EVA, who fought the cats at the city of books.

Eva's feat is still pretty brutal, though. I took another look at it and the novel does state that the number of cats she killed in one blow was indeed countless:

"Surrounding this were countless emerald green stars, which looked like a slowly revolving planetarium. The eyes that numbered the same as the stars... were all glaring in the same direction."

And while this attack wasn't launched by Bernkastel like the one against Lambda, they did fuse into a single one to attack EVA, it just really didn't matter:

"The entire emerald green constellation writhed and became a single, massive, deep-sea fish, which charged at EVA with its massive mouth open wide."

But if being Bern's piece is what put EVA in a level high enough to fodderize an army of countless cats, then all the pieces align for me too. Thanks!

 

[DarkLK]

I think you remember that it was said more than once that the power of pieces/furniture/summons is proportional to their master's power.

 

[FateAlbane]

Surely. It was good to clarify on this point here so it doesn't raise any questions in the future either. o/

 

[Game_Master_Battler]

This verse is as complex as it is grandiose

 

[FateAlbane]

There's a heavy tone of underlying tragedy behind the scenes, too.

Case in point - Ryukishi's first reader and best friend (I'm faily sure he was also his editor and webmaster at some point), BT, passed away no less than a month before EP5 was released.

Quoting Ryukishi on this:

"He was not only my very best friend, but also my very first reader.
I wrote both Higurashi and Umineko because I wanted to surprise him.

During the several months that passed since that day.
I forgot the joy of writting.

However, I know better than anyone else that if I stop writting because of him, he would be the most sad.
So I must write.
But he will no longer read it."

Note that Ryukishi had said previously that Higurashi and Umineko "were something he was writting to surprise him (BT)" and that the main reason he still finished the story was because otherwise it would be as if they never met.

"BT, thanks so much.
If I hadn't met you, I wouldn't be who I am today.

So, if I stop writing, it will be as though I never met you…
So, I'll grit my teeth and write.
As I remember what you taught me."

 

[Game_Master_Battler]

(This is off topic please forgive me but all the WTC nerds are piled up here, and i had to share this, also im shaking from excitement)

So news just came to me. Theres a GOLD edition for umineko when they cry

This edition was made strictly for the western audience incase anyone hasnt heard on it yet

Full North american voice acting, new graphics

Witch nerds rejoice. This is a splendid time for us

https://www.umineko.us Link to site^

 

[Ovy7]

There's already a separate thread about Umi: Golden Edition, though no one seemed to have noticed it. . . I'm sad T_T

 

[Game_Master_Battler]

Rip

 

[Game_Master_Battler]

Is there anything else you guys need to discuss on the cosmology?

 

[BleedingPeach]

Since their tier is something that is clear... does her intelligence plays a part in versus? I know that Bern could see everything as fiction but why she hasn't Nigh-Omniscience? To be honest, I want to understand better this verse because is very interesting and I'm very ignorant regarding Umineko.

 

[Game_Master_Battler]

Thats a interesting question, anyone here know the intelligence level for respective witches, and the intelligence for their true forms?

 

[FateAlbane]

The story makes a huge deal out of "knowing/understanding the truth" so I'm pretty sure anyone but Featherine being nigh-omniscient would be a contradiction.

Why, Featherine herself states to Bernkastel at some point that at her level "she knows everything so everything bores her". Unlike Voyagers who still manage to find some entertainment in fragments and such.

And witches seeing everything below as fiction doesn't mean they outright know all there is to know in the verse (which is what it takes to get the rating), same way we don't know every single thing that is written in a book until we read it. For example, despite being that far up above Bernkastel didn't outright know the truth and everything about Beato's gameboard from the get-go.

So I'm pretty sure their intelligence ratings are accurate as is.

 

[FateAlbane]

However, I do believe witches should be given Supergenius rather than plain Genius level intellect as they far transcend the absolute height of human intellect. I think that's a change that didn't happen because these ratings didn't exist in the intelligence page when their profiles were last edited.

 

[Promestein]

I have questions about the piece tierings. Just. Where should they be? Do we have some concrete support and scans for their current ratings? Should Hanyuu be High 2-A in her original form (given that it's said she crossed the fifh-dimensional wall).

 

[Antvasima]

Supergenius Intelligence would probably be fine, but it is best to wait for DarkLK. Perhaps their intelligence should be higher.

 

[Promestein]

I don't think it should be. Nigh-Omniscience is definitely not applicable. Supergenius even is questionable. Being beyond the peak of human intellect doesn't mean much when normal humans are just Geniuses at best.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, so extraordinary genius rankings then?

 

[FateAlbane]

The scans DLK posted above show understanding of matters far above what normal human intellect can provide, and witches are by definition on a level of understanding absolutely transcendent to what humans, mortals and whatever else in the human domain can possibly achieve.

I don't agree with anyone other than Featherine being nigh-omniscient but I'm not sure why we should be skeptical on Supergenius.

 

[FateAlbane]

Note that that rating would be applied to Witches (with the exception of Maria for obvious reasons as she hasn't "lived a thousand years" yet), not to pieces.

 

[FateAlbane]

But just not to omit any factors, a counterpoint to that would be that even Bernkastel sort of needed to "cheat" to solve the riddle of the Epitaph by looking around the Sea of Kakera to take the hints from the previous games instead of solving it by looking or something. So I suppose I'll go along with what others decide on the Intelligence rating.

 

[Promestein]

That's true enough, but we don't give other higher-dimensional beings high intelligence ratings just by virtue of being higher-dimensional.

I think you could argue that that was just because it was easier than actually sitting down and dissecting it straight-up.

 

[Game_Master_Battler]

Is there a issue with featherine being truly omniscient?

 

[DarkLK]

I have questions about the piece tierings. Just. Where should they be?

Somewhere between normal humans and the peaks of all things.

As for the intellect, higher beings can understand things that humans cannot understand in any way, but this does not mean that they are by default aware of all events.

 

[DarkLK]

What we have called the Nigh-Omniscience is rather a high level of cosmic awareness, which does not necessarily affect rational thinking. Roughly speaking, we can know almost everything, but not know what to do about it. Like cosmic wikipedia. WTC higher beings are more on the contrary, they have a high level of understanding and rational thinking, but they don't even try to learn everything about everything.

Being beyond the peak of human intellect doesn't mean much when normal humans are just Geniuses at best.

We are talking about the peak of the ningen domain (peak of all things), and not about the peak of normal people.

We can also remember the monstrous computing power. For example, when Bern simultaneously uses countless mysteries, and the Battler confronts this for some time.

We can also recall that Ange (human) experienced severe physical and mental fatigue after attempting to summon all seven sisters of purgatory. Bern summons countless cats and has no difficulty with this.

 

[Agnaa]

It's a minor thing, but why do you seem to distinguish between ningen and human? Doesn't "ningen" just mean "human/humanity"?

 

[DarkLK]

Because ningen is written with katakana when supernatural beings talk about it. And in a broad sense, it means those who "tossed about by fate". I mean the context of this verse (although even in Dragon Ball this term has a broader meaning than just a human/humanity).

 

[Promestein]

Makes sense to me then.

 

[Game_Master_Battler]

What we have called the Nigh-Omniscience is rather a high level of cosmic awareness, which does not necessarily affect rational thinking. Roughly speaking, we can know almost everything, but not know what to do about it. Like cosmic wikipedia. WTC higher beings are more on the contrary, they have a high level of understanding and rational thinking, but they don't even try to learn everything about everything.

We are talking about the peak of the ningen domain (peak of all things), and not about the peak of normal people.

We can also remember the monstrous computing power. For example, when Bern simultaneously uses countless mysteries, and the Battler confronts this for some time.

We can also recall that Ange (human) experienced severe physical and mental fatigue after attempting to summon all seven sisters of purgatory. Bern summons countless cats and has no difficulty with this.


So youre arguing for nigh omniscient voyagers?

Im still wondering if featherine can be argued to be truly omniscient due to her only limitation left being the creator

Also. If i made the argument that since featherines is the writer of umineko. Wouldnt that make her in a sense omnipresent aswell? As shes writing the script. Shes making these characters do their actions. Shes the one who writes the dialogue, the design, etc etc Shes the one who makes the characters be characters?

 

[Promestein]

He's not arguing for nigh-omniscient voyagers and writing the script doesn't make you omnipresent (but she will be anyways, in her true form).

 

[DarkLK]

So youre arguing for nigh omniscient voyagers?

Nah. I'm arguing for supergenius voyagers and other adapted higher beings. A little later, I will explain what I mean when I say "adapted."

 

[DarkLK]

Even about Featherine, I doubt about (nigh)omniscience. And she is not even the author of Umineko or something like that. She herself said she was finishing a story she hadn't written from the very beginning. And even so, she allowed Ange herself to write end of her own story. I'm not even saying that Umineko is just one story, even if it is quite large. And Umineko is just one story.

 

[DarkLK]

So, some more information about higher beings.

I think everyone understands that most of these beings have manifestations in the higher domain not because of their own evolution, but because of the support of other higher beings. This applies to most of Ushiromiya family and to Rika as well. They have all the same abilities and power, but in fact they have the status of pieces on some personal board, and they will disappear along with the owner of their board. For example, you can remember how Beatrice's whole world disappeared at the end of the third episode, when she denied herself, and even Battler disappeared with her, because he was a part of her world.


The process of evolution itself is inspired by some inner spiritual changes that alienate human from human nature.

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And yes, this is about turning into a higher world being (õ©èõ¢ìÒü«õ©ûþòîÒü«Õ¡ÿÕ£¿), not just into "something different", as it is written on my scan.

The catalyst for this process in Rika's case was her time loop travel. In Kotarou (Rewrite protagonst)'s case it was increase of intelligence through a special ability and control system of the world. In Yasu's case it was her tragedy and madness.

I think it is not necessary to explain that the manifestations of higher beings have nothing to do with their material bodies from lower kakeras.


Even in the case of humans, the will is identified with life, although this is only a metaphor, but in the case of higher beings, such metaphors are literal things.


They exist while they have the will andthey die when they lost their motivation for life. Therefore, boredom is poison to them.


When higher beings define themselves, they incarnate directly from nothingness.

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More precisely, not just from nothingness, but from being of nothingness (ÞÖÜþäíÒü«Õ¡ÿÕ£¿). This is the most fundamental nature of higher beings. This is their form when they do not define themselves.


I think everyone understands that nothingness is a common background for worlds of all layers and domains. Beings of nothingness are no longer associated with boards. It may seem that then they are much stronger than normal manifestations of higher beings. However, such an abstract nature helps only for Regenerationn; it does not allow jumping above the head for one simple reason.

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Higher beings who are limited by territories/boards simply cannot be incarnated somewhere outside of their boards. They are locked inside such catboxes/sets of possibilities.


As long as the process of thinking, the will and the motivation is there, revival is possible. Nevertheless, nothingness is also oblivion and it puts pressure on the mind of even the living higher beings, not to mention the dead ones, and therefore the most difficult thing for them will be to remember themselves after a long death.


Powerful attacks, especially conceptual ones, can hold back the ability to determine one's form, and thus prevent the very possibility of existence.

The Truth attacks that can disprove someone's existence are particularly effective if the victim does not have counter-arguments that will allow to define self (at least from own perspective).


In addition, adaptation to higher existence does not occur instantaneously for those who used to be human before. Even to understand some obvious things for higher beings, it will take some time (well, there is no concept of time, but I hope you understand me).