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Umineko Revision 3: The New Tiering System

Wankbreaker said:
The “distant place” they are mentioning is the third domain, aka the domain of the creator, so no.
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So the Third Domain is for beings (Creator) that lost all restrictions, right?

Forgive me if I'm missing something, since I don't know anything about Umineko's cosmology.
 
Livinaa said:
So the Third Domain is for beings (Creator) that lost all restrictions, right?

Forgive me if I'm missing something, since I don't know anything about Umineko's cosmology.
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Pretty much this. They’re able to bend “fate” to their own will,the only restriction left being their sense of self (which isn’t really a restriction in a powerscaling sense)

The rest of the reasoning was already explained prior
 
Wankbreaker said:
Pretty much this. They’re able to bend “fate” to their own will,the only restriction left being their sense of self (which isn’t really a restriction in a powerscaling sense)

The rest of the reasoning was already explained prior
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Wouldn't the bolded part mean they are still at the last step of Endeavors?
 
HigashikataJobin said:
Not the same endeavors of the Witches though. They long transcended the limitations of the Witch Domain. That's one of the points as to why the Creator Domain is H1-A
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What do you mean not the same Endeavors as the Witch Domain's? Do the Witch Domain and Third Domain have their own different Endeavors?
 
Grabbing_dragon said:
nope
Click to expand...
Don't "nope" me when this is :the only actual scan you ever bought up
Grabbing_dragon said:
We are told that Featherine reached an even higher world than the Domain of Witches, one from which the entire Witch Domain is a mere gameboard, the same way the Human Domain is to the Witch Domain.
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Grabbing_dragon said:
like i already said that higher into 1A+, she needs to transcerd the very idea of R>F like ultima said about marvel, it transcends all forms of reality and dream
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That's not really address anything of what I said. You're simply saying "they're higher into 1-A+" but never giving a fundamental reasoning behind why its so, other then highlighting a part of the tiering system that does not apply to Featherine.

Also, highlighting a specific verse example[that Ultima gave] is not a good argument in such a discussion either, when every verse can have its own means to get 1-A, High 1-A, or higher. You're limiting the scope of applications to a very specific verse and its examples, rather then using the broader definition of High 1-A; You're also limiting High 1-A to a very specific set of words; "transcends all forms of reality and dream" without even understanding why they do so. A verse need not state it as clear as that, and as long as it follows the fundamental principle of H1-A, it can attain that tier.
that does not matter ,A character who is 1 layer above 1A can do that and still using the same quality.
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Not really, no. A being that is a layer above 1-A will simply see the 1-A baseline reality itself as fiction, rather then seeing the difference/distinction between 1-A and Non 1-A, or 1-A and layers into 1-A, as fiction.
being irrelevant does not mean transcerd and they are not even the logical nagation of eachother
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The difference between any two layers of 1-A is the same as the difference between 1-A and Non 1-A, as both cases are essentially an R>F level above its predecessor. Once again, you're only addressing scans individually rather then looking at and addressing them as a whole.
For example, if my argument was that in one scan it says "A transcends B", and in the other scan it says "HOW A transcends B", you're only addressing both of those individually rather then as a whole, which is a flaw on your part in addressing them.

She transcends the witch domain just like the witch domain transcends the human domain, AND sees the difference between both domains as irrelevant. That's the thing, you only address one part at a time, but seems to be intentionally or unintentionally ignoring the other side of the argument when addressing either of the sides individually.

Nope, just saying how tier system works and looked at the scans they dont qualify since people where changing the wording sometimes
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Correction, *scan, not "scans". You only ever addressed one scan, not any other scan. That's not how arguments work. It's like arguing "said structure is not a space-time" while addressing a scan that says its a universe, and completely ignoring the rest of the scans that elaborate on how said universe is a space-time.

If I did misunderstood you, however, as in that you indeed saw all the scans, then prove that by addressing every scan [at least in the High 1-A part] to back up your claim.

it is just not enough for high 1A.
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Saying something is not a certain tier without providing a relevant argument[the ones you provided didn't address the relevant whole of my rebunk] is not a way to discuss things. Read my previous point[and the OP] again and address every point there [regarding High 1-A, which I'm arguing with you] if you wanna put up a solid argument.

With that, I've said what I wanted to say regarding your argument, and won't be replying further if you give the same old "argument" without addressing things I told you to address.
 
Not really, no. A being that is a layer above 1-A will simply see the 1-A baseline reality itself as fiction, rather then seeing the difference/distinction between 1-A and Non 1-A, or 1-A and layers into 1-A, as fiction.
Click to expand...
Can you explain what is meant by seeing the difference/distinction between 1-A as fiction?

I thought that's how higher layers work in 1-A, seeing everything below them as fiction, even the difference between lower layers.

For example, a 1 layer above baseline 1-A, by viewing the baseline 1-A and non 1-A as fiction, can freely change them. They can turn a baseline 1-A into non 1-A, and non 1-A into baseline 1-A. Hence viewing the difference/distinction between baseline 1-A and non 1-A as fiction/irrelevant.
 
VeryGoofyToddler2 said:
That's not what gets you High 1-A. At least without further context.

If it's akin to them being imaginary to her where they're nothing but fictional. That would mean unless she directly allows it, they cannot commute with her in the same vein that 1-A being “qualitatively superior” would mean they can't interact with lower beings without the 1-A character itself allowing them to or some sort of higher power grants, or if they're in the same level of existence to which each hierarchy up is more real than the last.

So, Featherine would have to operate at a level that transcends the notion of a 1-A hierarchy in the same vein, that 1-A does to everything below it. So if she sees the the entirety of the endless ladder as nothing more than fiction, cannot be communicated at that level, and she's on a level of existence separate from a lower hierarchy then, yeah, High 1-A is fine.

If you could name some examples of those criteria.

Being infinitely above 1-A+ is still 1-A+ because you are operating in the same hierarchy. So her avatar would still scale to the hierarchy, even if she is the top/apex of it.
Click to expand...
It is said that the featherine perceives the witch domain the same way the witch domain perceives the human domain. In other words, a completely different world, reality and hierarchy. The interpretation made here completely complies with the High 1-A criteria. A completely different hierarchy is being talked about.
 
Astral_Trinity439 said:
Don't "nope" me when this is :the only actual scan you ever bought up
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ok , the scan it self and other scans already proves she is using R>F over it .
Astral_Trinity439 said:
That's not really address anything of what I said. You're simply saying "they're higher into 1-A+" but never giving a fundamental reasoning behind why its so, other then highlighting a part of the tiering system that does not apply to Featherine.

Also, highlighting a specific verse example[that Ultima gave] is not a good argument in such a discussion either, when every verse can have its own means to get 1-A, High 1-A, or higher. You're limiting the scope of applications to a very specific verse and its examples, rather then using the broader definition of High 1-A; You're also limiting High 1-A to a very specific set of words; "transcends all forms of reality and dream" without even understanding why they do so. A verse need not state it as clear as that, and as long as it follows the fundamental principle of H1-A, it can attain that tier.
Click to expand...
Ok, But for high 1A you actual need complete transcedent over 1A layers or transcerdent over the generic quality defining the layers

this is what you said
  1. Her nature is that of a higher layer of R>F compared to the witch domain, thus seeing the witch domain as much fictional as they see the human domain. this one is neither one of them, but higher into 1A.

Astral_Trinity439 said:
Not really, no. A being that is a layer above 1-A will simply see the 1-A baseline reality itself as fiction, rather then seeing the difference/distinction between 1-A and Non 1-A, or 1-A and layers into 1-A, as fiction.
Click to expand...
you are right ,outside 1A and layers into 1-A, as fiction does not work like that and the see part you need transcerdent rather than see them as that.
Astral_Trinity439 said:
The difference between any two layers of 1-A is the same as the difference between 1-A and Non 1-A, as both cases are essentially an R>F level above its predecessor.
Click to expand...
true
Astral_Trinity439 said:
Once again, you're only addressing scans individually rather then looking at and addressing them as a whole.
For example, if my argument was that in one scan it says "A transcends B", and in the other scan it says "HOW A transcends B", you're only addressing both of those individually rather then as a whole, which is a flaw on your part in addressing them.

She transcends the witch domain just like the witch domain transcends the human domain, AND sees the difference between both domains as irrelevant. That's the thing, you only address one part at a time, but seems to be intentionally or unintentionally ignoring the other side of the argument when addressing either of the sides individually.
Click to expand...
She needs transcendent over them rather than see the differences between them as meaningless. If it was "transcendent," I would have been able to agree with high 1A.
Astral_Trinity439 said:
Correction, *scan, not "scans". You only ever addressed one scan, not any other scan. That's not how arguments work. It's like arguing "said structure is not a space-time" while addressing a scan that says its a universe, and completely ignoring the rest of the scans that elaborate on how said universe is a space-time.
If I did misunderstood you, however, as in that you indeed saw all the scans, then prove that by addressing every scan [at least in the High 1-A part] to back up your claim.
Click to expand...
Astral_Trinity439 said:
Saying something is not a certain tier without providing a relevant argument[the ones you provided didn't address the relevant whole of my rebunk] is not a way to discuss things. Read my previous point[and the OP] again and address every point there [regarding High 1-A, which I'm arguing with you] if you wanna put up a solid argument.

With that, I've said what I wanted to say regarding your argument, and won't be replying further if you give the same old "argument" without addressing things I told you to address.
Click to expand...
this scans already debunks high 1A itself
The Witch Domain is akin to an endless ladder, with its layers or “steps” being called Endeavors. The higher on the ladder they go the fewer restrictions they have proportionally, until they lack any restrictions and become a Creator.
The scan itself says Creator and Feathrine are at the top of the hierarchy rather than above it, so lacking all restrictions would mean at the top of the hierarchy.

already addressed the other stuff why it is not high 1A. Have no more to say
 
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Grabbing_dragon said:
this scans already debunks high 1A itself
The Witch Domain is akin to an endless ladder, with its layers or “steps” being called Endeavors. The higher on the ladder they go the fewer restrictions they have proportionally, until they lack any restrictions and become a Creator.
The scan itself says Creator and Feathrine are at the top of the hierarchy rather than above it, so lacking all restrictions would mean at the top of the hierarchy.

already addressed the other stuff why it is not high 1A. Have no more to say
Click to expand...
This seems like an important point of contingency. If proven true then High 1-A looks bleak.
 
VeryGoofyToddler2 said:
This seems like an important point of contingency. If proven true then High 1-A looks bleak.
Click to expand...
addressed previously:

The “distant place” they are mentioning that is beyond the ladder is the third domain, aka the domain of the creator, so no.
Click to expand...
 
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Livinaa said:
What do you mean not the same Endeavors as the Witch Domain's? Do the Witch Domain and Third Domain have their own different Endeavors?
Click to expand...
Basically yes, because the residents of each Domain are described by having totally different natures/qualities

We however don't know the Nature of the Third Domain. Not about it's structure and laws at least, but It also have layers
 
VeryGoofyToddler2 said:
This seems like an important point of contingency. If proven true then High 1-A looks bleak.
Click to expand...
Don’t think so. The way it is said, the higher you are in the hierarchy, the fewer restrictions you have. How would lacking all restrictions in this context be considered High 1-A without the transcendent? from what i see there just at the top, Even if the creator's domain is different from the witch's domain, it would not matter. They are just not above the hierarchy.
It just does not transcerd generic quality defining the layers of the witch domain
Wankbreaker said:
addressed previously:
Click to expand...
it being outside does not mean it is above it ,just like how beyond dimensional existence type 1 is beyond dimensions without being Superior to them.
 
Grabbing_dragon said:
this scans already debunks high 1A itself
The Witch Domain is akin to an endless ladder, with its layers or “steps” being called Endeavors. The higher on the ladder they go the fewer restrictions they have proportionally, until they lack any restrictions and become a Creator.
The scan itself says Creator and Feathrine are at the top of the hierarchy rather than above it, so lacking all restrictions would mean at the top of the hierarchy.

already addressed the other stuff why it is not high 1A. Have no more to say
Click to expand...
You know the literally same source you provide in these scans makes a clear distinction not only in the beginning, but in all of the story, about how the Third Domain is something utterly above the infinite hierarch of the Witch Domain, right?
 
Grabbing_dragon said:
Don’t think so. The way it is said, the higher you are in the hierarchy, the fewer restrictions you have. How would lacking all restrictions in this context be considered High 1-A without the transcendent? from what i see there just at the top, Even if the creator's domain is different from the witch's domain, it would not matter. They are just not above the hierarchy.

it being outside does not mean it is above it ,just like how beyond dimensional existence type 1 is beyond dimensions without being Superior to them.
Click to expand...
Your point is just... hollow? You are saying that Featherine would need to transcend the complete hierarch to be High 1-A, even though this is not the point addressed as to why she's High 1-A?

"Even if the creator's domain is different from the witch's domain, it would not matter", obviously it would matter, you are just saying straight up you don't consider the scans and explanations as to why the difference of those structures is a uttmost point in the reasoning for FAA tier?

Heck, the entire arguments of this thread is to why how the Creator Domain being completely above the Witch Domain in every sense would make Featherine H1-A.
 
HigashikataJobin said:
Your point is just... hollow? You are saying that Featherine would need to transcend the complete hierarch to be High 1-A, even though this is not the point addressed as to why she's High 1-A?

"Even if the creator's domain is different from the witch's domain, it would not matter", obviously it would matter, you are just saying straight up you don't consider the scans and explanations as to why the difference of those structures is a uttmost point in the reasoning for FAA tier?

Heck, the entire arguments of this thread is to why how the Creator Domain being completely above the Witch Domain in every sense would make Featherine H1-A.
Click to expand...
vsbattles.com

How Different is High 1-A an High 1-A+

Yes. Can please use analogy🙏🙂
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
Needs to transcerd any and all levels of r>fs
 
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HigashikataJobin said:
"Even if the creator's domain is different from the witch's domain, it would not matter", obviously it would matter, you are just saying straight up you don't consider the scans and explanations as to why the difference of those structures is a uttmost point in the reasoning for FAA tier?
Click to expand...
To be frank, many fictional verses have hierarchies, but that doesn't equate to it being equivalent to being the difference between 1-A and High 1-A.
 
VeryGoofyToddler2 said:
To be frank, many fictional verses have hierarchies, but that doesn't equate to it being equivalent to being the difference between 1-A and High 1-A.
Click to expand...
I didn't understand your point here... I mean, yes? Having a hierarch doesn't mean automatically that a verse is High 1-A. That's why this thread is explaining and linking sources as to how Umineko presents us the mechanics and differences between two cosmological structures.
 
Please, can everyone just stop. The story is repeating itself. Let the staff decide and move on. We're really going to reach 10 pages with 99% of them being repeated arguments.

The best way to settle everything is for Ultima to come. They will, one day or another, so let's just wait and do something else in the meantime.
 
Livinaa said:
Can you explain what is meant by seeing the difference/distinction between 1-A as fiction?

I thought that's how higher layers work in 1-A, seeing everything below them as fiction, even the difference between lower layers.

For example, a 1 layer above baseline 1-A, by viewing the baseline 1-A and non 1-A as fiction, can freely change them. They can turn a baseline 1-A into non 1-A, and non 1-A into baseline 1-A. Hence viewing the difference/distinction between baseline 1-A and non 1-A as fiction/irrelevant.
Click to expand...
However, Featherine isn't just viewing a 1-A layer under her as fiction — and hence everything under said layer too as fiction.
She views an entire structure of 1-A+ layers — and 1-A+ structures above said infinite layers — as nothing. She views the difference of those 1-A+ structures and the relation between them and a 3-A structure as trivial and non-existent, which means no matter how much 1-A parts you put one above the other, they will never reach the Creator Domain and Featherine as a consequence, and that the rules that command the framework of layers doesn't matter a little to her. This is a 1:1 description with the High 1-A reasoning in the Tiering System page, as JustANormalPerson said.
 
SweetDao said:
Please, can everyone just stop. The story is repeating itself. Let the staff decide and move on. We're really going to reach 10 pages with 99% of them being repeated arguments.

The best way to settle everything is for Ultima to come. They will, one day or another, so let's just wait and do something else in the meantime.
Click to expand...
Yes.

So, if anyone wants to bring a counter-argument for the proposed tiers, please consult all the thread before posting, because all of the discussion happening here are about things that were already discussed and explained in like 4 pages ago.
 
HigashikataJobin said:
So, if anyone wants to bring a counter-argument for the proposed tiers, please consult all the thread before posting, because all of the discussion happening here are about things that were already discussed and explained in like 4 pages ago.
Click to expand...
I think at this point, if someone want to argue for the rating or against it, just go to the general discussion thread or on the wall of whoever want to debate with them.

We understood the side of both parties, arguments and counterarguments alike, there is no point in doing back and forth anymore.
 
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