When They Cry Revisions

[Game_Master_Battler]

@Darklk also, was it ever mentioned that the hierarchy in itself was limited to 3/4 domains

Is there a possibility there are more domains that arent touched on?

 

[FateAlbane]

snip

Hence why it's currently all about gettings the scans regarding the chart, as they would be the most useful right now for evidence. But there's no rush. In fact this CRT has been going at a rather fast pace.

About the different higher/lower incarnations, that applies not only to beings such as Featherine and the Voyagers, but even to pieces - as Kanon himself puts it in regards to his piece self and his golden land self.

 

[FateAlbane]

@Darklk also, was it ever mentioned that the hierarchy in itself was limited to 3/4 domains
Is there a possibility there are more domains that arent touched on?

Not really, since Human is the most basic and there couldn't possibly be anything above Creator.

Lambda specifically states that the domain of witches as a whole is the middle ground. So that's that.

 

[DarkLK]

As i was told. One single layer is inaccesibly greater than the one before it due to each layer having a said "hierarchy" where you have to evolve or you cannot reach the next layer

This is not quite the way it works. In the human domain there is no evolution through layers. This is what Lambda says when it declares that people have a firm footing. That is, they do not need to make an effort to simply exist as opposed to higher beings who must define the earth under their feet, incarnate on some layers or simply disappear into the sea of nonthingness. A human can only evolve into a higher domain. That is why the peak of all things in my chart is called the "fence of the higher domain". This is also the reason why the domain of humans on my other chart is perpendicular to the common evolutionary ladder.

 

[DarkLK]

@Darklk also, was it ever mentioned that the hierarchy in itself was limited to 3/4 domains
Is there a possibility there are more domains that arent touched on?

This has never been mentioned directly, but it is implied that this is so. At least personally, I have no reason to think otherwise.

 

[FateAlbane]

And since we entered this point, I'll quote this piece of dialogue Dark said about true Bern:

"Bern's true nature is the stage. It is the unconscious (even for Bern's own manifestations and personalities, because the points of view are still illusions, and in the World there is only one Truth) force that shapes the World in general. She is basically embodies the inevitability and predestination, the cruelty of God. Therefore she is a "Witch of Fragments". Fragments (crystallization of fate), exist because of her power. Together with Lambda (Lambda represents change of fate via will) they are the most important things in the World, embracing, embodying and transcending this World and its beings."

And recall that this is supported in Ougon Musou Kyoku Cross once again when she and Lambda state that opposing them equals treason against the world itself in the broadest sense of the word. This notion is also expanded upon throughout the story and the Tanabata of the Witches one, so it's another point in regards to the transcendence of their true selves to the ones we see in the story.

 

[KingPin0422]

I recall something about how the true forms of Bernkastel and Lambdadelta were not really people, but moreso fundamental laws that govern existence.

Featherine -- I think -- was described similarly, her true form being something known as "Aurora". But "Aurora" is supposedly lacking in proper explanation.

 

[FateAlbane]

• Laughs due to how I just ninja'd KingPin.

 

[DarkLK]

Featherine -- I think -- was described similarly, her true form being something known as "Aurora". But "Aurora" is supposedly lacking in proper explanation.

Not certainly in that way. I just said that in VN Rewrite there was a thing called Aurora, which was a Universe (in a broad sense), the functionality of which was provided by a symbiosis of the factors of miracles and will. It is quite possible that the true nature of Featherine is roughly the same connected with the true natures of the Voyagers, who represent these factors.

 

[Game_Master_Battler]

Okay so like. Bern and lamb are still greatly limited and dont want to become all powerful

The bern and lamb we see throughout the story are just limited avatars

And their true forms encompass the entire hierarchy itself? But are still considered only mid tier voyagers

Because this connects to featherine aswell. Is the memory device even relevant? Maybe there will be multiple keys for her avatar and her true state?

 

[DarkLK]

And their true forms encompass the entire hierarchy itself? But are still considered only mid tier voyagers

In fact, I doubt that there are many creatures that would have superior concepts. Not sure that there is at least one except Featherine herself. They vie for the title of the strongest witch. The concepts of Bern and Lambda are directly related to the whole existence and laws of life and death. That is, even higher beings need the will to live and they die when they lose their will.

A memory device is a hard question. This can only be a metaphor for some event in the story of Featherine or the being who became her (Hanyuu maybe). Something like the story that Virgilia was Beatrice's mentor, although it is technically just part of the story. Even with youkais in Higanbana, you may notice similar strange things with the stories that overlap the world, regardless of whether this actually happened.

 

[Promestein]

I know I'm not saying anything, but I am reading this all. I do think that the cosmology reaches 1-A at points, but I'm not completely sure on who all this would scale to (it seems to be likely a lot, given that the underside of the chessboard seems to at least debatably qualify).

Voyagers (and Featherine) would get Type 1 Abstract Existence (likely embodying Type 1 or 2 concepts?), Omnipresence, Types 4/8/9, etc, and True-Godly, yes?

 

[DarkLK]

Underside of the chessboard is still a controversial issue, so for now we don't consider this. About Voyagers and Featherine, also, not all is said and there is no need to hurry.

Nevertheless, in my opinion, we can already give about such a justification for the characteristics of any higher order beings, that is, for all those who exist above the domain of humans.

(is a being of the Witch Domain, completely surpasses any conceptualization of the Human Domain, which already represents a existentional hierarchy of layers that differ from each other as reality and fiction, and where within each individual layer there are complex quantum structures and higher dimensions)

 

[Promestein]

Yeah makes sense.

Yes, something like that would work well.

 

[DarkLK]

And of course, just like in I/O, we will not give any cosmic characteristics to regular humans and supernatural beings (mostly it will be pieces) from the human domain due to the fact that their fictions are the worlds of the lower layers, since this is an uncontrollable process and they cannot destroy such worlds. We will consider only relative characteristics within a separate layer (unlike higher order beings who can affect the true shape of Kakeras literally with their hands). The problem here is precisely the definition of the conceptual complexity of the world of one layer. At the moment we only know that there is a "far higher dimension" and "uncertain wave function".

I personally suggest making pages with two or three keys.

The second key is the higher domain manifestation/higher order being. This will be 1-A for the reasons described above. The third key will be applied only to Voyagers and Featherine, and will describe their true nature.

And the first key will describe the manifestations in the human domain (i.e. weak pieces of higher beings) and "relative characteristics". That is, these characteristics are relative to the current layer without taking into account the superiority over the lower fictional layers. And the highest possible tier of this part we must determine.

We have characters like Dlanor who can deny "any concept". And this is a relative ability. That is, even in one layer, there is at least the endless nine that can overpower the red key, and (as shown in the fifth episode) these abilities do not mean anything to the higher layer beings who easily control pieces with such abilities that is difference between layers > the difference between any beings, concepts and abilities within a single layer (this is what I call relative abilities and characteristics).

And to understand the conceptual scale of one layer (the domain of humans in particular, although the layers of higher domains are mostly metaphorical analogs of the same things) it would be best to consider the conceptual hierarchy from Rewrite, which was described in sufficient detail and it was clearly shown that even its peak did not reach the hopeless higher domain, where live bored godlike beings and fom where some kakera/chapters comes in the form of feelings.

It is this peak that is the peak of potential human conceptualization and the relative complexity of the individual world. I also say that the Gaap's dark world (aka Warp), which is beyond all time and space (not only in the real world, but also in the supernatural world (higher dimensions and wave functions)) is also a relative part of each board/kakera.

 

[Promestein]

This makes complete sense to me.

 

[Antvasima]

@Promestein

Would you be interested in writing an explanation page or explanation blog for Umineko based on DarkLK's information?

 

[Promestein]

I'd be fine with it. Would take some time to run it all by him and make sure I have a proper and complete understanding.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you very much for the help.

 

[DarkLK]

As for me, as I promised, I provide information about the hierarchy of human conceptualization from Rewrite and perhaps a little more explain my point about conceptual creatures in general and Voyagers in particular.

By the way, I must also clarify that there is no confusion. To describe general metaphysics, we can use only common things that are repeated in different works. That is, for example, we cannot say that magical creatures from Higanbana, Higurasha, Hotarubi, Rewrite etc are afraid of the "anti-magic toxin" of hegular humans. Yasu came up with this interpretation for her system. In the crossover, it did not work on youkai (Marie) from Higanbana. I also gave another example where Higanbana uses the red truth to confirm her existence, because there are no rules for her that prohibit doing so. Despite the fact that she is also the embodiment of delusions/story about the supernatural being, as well as Beatrice.

 

[Game_Master_Battler]

So far the pals of mine i mentioned. One of them made a blog thats currently under construction. But he has multiple arguments for a high 1-B human domain

 

[Game_Master_Battler]

From the looks of it. Anyone above the human domain is 1-A if you all agree that is.

 

[Game_Master_Battler]

Human domain < inaccesible conceptual lader < domain of witches < beatrice untapped potential/featherines domain < creators domain < the creator himself

If i understand it correctly

 

[DarkLK]

So far the pals of mine i mentioned. One of them made a blog thats currently under construction. But he has multiple arguments for a high 1-B human domai

If this is due to a wave function or the fact that the hierarchy of fictions can glitter endlessly (because humans can always create their fictions that will become the lower layer worlds), then I do not think it is appropriate to be an argument for the tier of a some character (just because the characters in this domain can't interchange with the lower layers).

From the looks of it. Anyone above the human domain is 1-A if you all agree that is.

Well, this should not be a problem because it is really beyond any conceptualization and multiplying existing conceptualized structures into a hierarchy really does not make the higher domain more comprehensible from the lower pint of view.

 

[Game_Master_Battler]

And of course, just like in I/O, we will not give any cosmic characteristics to regular humans and supernatural beings (mostly it will be pieces) from the human domain due to the fact that their fictions are the worlds of the lower layers, since this is an uncontrollable process and they cannot destroy such worlds. We will consider only relative characteristics within a separate layer (unlike higher order beings who can affect the true shape of Kakeras literally with their hands). The problem here is precisely the definition of the conceptual complexity of the world of one layer. At the moment we only know that there is a "far higher dimension" and "uncertain wave function".

I personally suggest making pages with two or three keys.

The second key is the higher domain manifestation/higher order being. This will be 1-A for the reasons described above. The third key will be applied only to Voyagers and Featherine, and will describe their true nature.

And the first key will describe the manifestations in the human domain (i.e. weak pieces of higher beings) and "relative characteristics". That is, these characteristics are relative to the current layer without taking into account the superiority over the lower fictional layers. And the highest possible tier of this part we must determine.

We have characters like Dlanor who can deny "any concept". And this is a relative ability. That is, even in one layer, there is at least the endless nine that can overpower the red key, and (as shown in the fifth episode) these abilities do not mean anything to the higher layer beings who easily control pieces with such abilities that is difference between layers > the difference between any beings, concepts and abilities within a single layer (this is what I call relative abilities and characteristics).

And to understand the conceptual scale of one layer (the domain of humans in particular, although the layers of higher domains are mostly metaphorical analogs of the same things) it would be best to consider the conceptual hierarchy from Rewrite, which was described in sufficient detail and it was clearly shown that even its peak did not reach the hopeless higher domain, where live bored godlike beings and fom where some kakera/chapters comes in the form of feelings.

It is this peak that is the peak of potential human conceptualization and the relative complexity of the individual world. I also say that the Gaap's dark world (aka Warp), which is beyond all time and space (not only in the real world, but also in the supernatural world (higher dimensions and wave functions)) is also a relative part of each board/kakera.

So...from your example from rewrite you mentioned that Even the absolute peak of one layer still didnt reach the single layer above it, does this mean the only way to reach a higher layer is to self evolve or something?

 

[DarkLK]

There are NO ways to reach a higher layer in the human domain. This is the main difference. Humans have solid footing. As long as they belong to this domain, they do not evolve anywhere and do not degrade anywhere. They do not need to make an effort to exist, they do not need to define themselves. Humans can only evolve into a higher domain. Yes, the layers differ from each other as reality and fiction. But this is human fiction, which is within the framework of human conceptualization. The inner complexity of these worlds will be the same. And going beyond conceptualization from any such layer will be the same.

 

[DarkLK]

Tomorrow or maybe even today I will make an explanatory post about the hierarchy of concepts. I will also try to better explain the difference between humans (ningens) and higher order beings.

 

[Game_Master_Battler]

Thanks, honestly i want to see this cosmology at its absolute greatest potential

 

[FateAlbane]

featherines domain < creators domain < the creator himself
If i understand it correctly

...There's really no difference between the Creator's Domain and the domain Featherine is standing on. She reached the "highest, forbidden heights (of the domain above that of witches) and survived". It's made quite clear that she reached the very last boundary prior to the Creator in the Domain above.

About her memory device, it isn't harmful to her existence per se if something happens to it. Lambda thinks that it is "impossible to break it but perhaps she could jar it enough to make it bug out", prior to getting stomped. It's also said that it happened once in the past for reasons unknown and the result is that she changed appearance and personality to the one we currently see.

 

[Game_Master_Battler]

...There's really no difference between the Creator's Domain and the domain Featherine is standing on. She reached the "highest, forbidden heights (of the domain above that of witches) and survived". It's made quite clear that she reached the very last boundary prior to the Creator in the Domain above.

About her memory device, it isn't harmful to her existence per se if something happens to it. Lambda thinks that it is "impossible to break it but perhaps she could jar it enough to make it bug out", prior to getting stomped. It's also said that it happened once in the past for reasons unknown and the result is that she changed appearance and personality to the one we currently see.



Thanks for constantly fixing my mistakes lol

 

[Game_Master_Battler]

About beatrices catbox, is it infinitely layered aswell?

 

[DarkLK]

About beatrices catbox, is it infinitely layered aswell?

Probably. That is, each Fragment contains its own version of Yasu, who comes up with plans for murders in the same world. These fictions, by definition, must exist in the form of Fragments of the lower layer (just like the theories of people exist), and each of them must have its own version of Yasu who do the same, etc. Something like recursion.

But not that it was of great importance. As the being of the witch domain, Beatrice qualitatively surpass the conceptualization of the lower domain, regardless of the layers of that domain.

 

[Game_Master_Battler]

Couldnt we add said catbox on the cosmology? Bernkastels box aswell?

I know these domains are infinitely layered but if we look deep inside them it looks like things like catboxes are also infinite and can be added to the cosmology size

 

[DarkLK]

The boxes themselves are not any special structures in the verse. Cat boxes are a common thing for the whole world. Virtually anything where there is a division of possibilities is interpreted as a box.

 

[DarkLK]

Well, let's try to understand what a Human is and what are the limits of the human domain.

"It can explain that all the beings are placed somewhere between the two extremes, the side who is tossed about by fate and the side who creates fate. The ones tossed about by fate are the humans"┬®Lambdadelta

So, humans or ningens (ÒâïÒâ│Òé▓Òâ│) broadly these are all those who are "tossed about by fate". Of course, this concept is much broader than just our civilization, as I have already said.

And we also already found out that the boundaries of the Domain of Humans are the boundaries of their conceptualization. Their fictions exist as worlds of the lower layers in the same domain, but since they cannot in any way understand or even describe the worlds of a higher domain, the separation between hierarchies will be insurmountable.

We have already found out that the higher dimensions and quantum theories can be located within the framework of such worlds, but we have not exactly figured out exactly what the limit of conceptualization is. That is, how strong, for example, would be the Human Domain piece of Dlanor who can deny "all concepts" that can prevent her attack? Or what is the limit of Beatrice's power, that "has no concept of limit"? What generally can we consider as a "concept"? That is, of course, there are cultural concepts, but we are obviously interested in something more.

µ¿ÖþÜäÒü»ÒÇüþë®þÉåÒâ╗þ▓¥þÑ×Òâ╗µªéÕ┐ÁÒéÆõ©ÇÕêçÚü©Òü░ÒüÜÒÇüþë®þÉåÚÿ▓Õ¥íÒÇüþ▓¥þÑ×ÚÜöÚøóÒÇüµªéÕ┐ÁþÂÖµë┐Òü¬Òü®Òü«ÒÇüÕà¿Úÿ▓Õ¥íµªéÕ┐ÁÒüºÚÿ▓Õ¥íõ©ìÕÅ»Þâ¢ÒÇé

For example, even in the description of the Red Key we already have the physical (þë®þÉå), mental/spiritual(þ▓¥þÑ×) and conceptual (µªéÕ┐Á) kinds of concepts.

Let's take a closer look at one of Ryukishi07's collaboration with Tanaka Romeo and Tonokawa Yuuto, where the higher domain and its bored gods are mentioned only briefly, but the human level is considered in detail.


So from the very beginning we already have some kind of unimaginable realm beyond concepts of space and time and where all coordinates (i.e. dimensional axes) do not work.

What is this realm?


This is a world where creatures are concepts.


Composite versions of infinite selfs. Although for them this world seems like ordinary reality (well, almost).


Inside this realm is a control system of the Universe (Shinra Bansho, the universe in a broad sense), which contains tremendous information about everything.


Just trying to look and understand the incomprehensible knowledge in this diagram (The Theory of Life) is deadly for ordinary beings from this world. Fortunately, they do not die, even if they die.


Due to the increased level of intelligence due to the diagram, it was possible to understand something about the nature of this conceptual world. In particular, about the illogical structure of time in this timeless world.


Further, an increase in intelligence is achieved with the help of special superpower.


But this still is not enough to understand anything but insignificant grains of knowledge in the flowchart.


And here, alienation from human nature is getting brighter.


The understanding comes that happiness is in ignorance.


Removal from human nature continues. This is what we can call the beginning of evolution into a higher order being.


Next comes a sharp jerk of understanding. Next comes a sharp jerk of understanding. Finally, we are dealing with a ladder of concepts that transcends the universe. This applies not only to the real physical world, but also to that abstract world from which the journey began.


This is what is probably physical concepts. Once again I pay attention, this is not actually physics, these are transcendental concepts that exist beyond the universe and beyond realm, that exist outside of all coordinates. Our hero is still full of confidence that he can understand everything.


Then we have a combination of such laws, the nature of forces and other abstract things.


Aspects of humanity continue to be lost.


Next we have an existential cold. So this is what can be called mental concepts. Here comes an understanding of things related to the mind/soul/heart. Since this is quite a materialistic view of the universe, this part can bring despair. The world turns out to be like an unfeeling mechanism, where there is nothing divine.


Fortunately, on the next steps, the traveler met salvation in the form of kakera of love, which came from some much more high place.


It turned out that the concept of love is not only a mere observation of primitive civilizations, but something extremely important.


This kakera gave even more understanding about the world, but this is only the first chapter.


Then there are some truths about the history of the world, about the symbiosis of material and spiritual things.


Finally, we have some serious concept. Something like infinity, even from the perspective of this level, and understand something more about this thing is impossible. Our hero is increasingly beginning to understand his limitations.


The movement continues and misunderstanding only grows. The clouds of unknowable things.


And finally it is over. The wall of absolute misunderstanding.


It is this level that is the pinnacle of human conceptualization. The visitor is already beginning to understand the problem of boredom, which is characteristic of higher beings.


However, even here there is still hope. There are still unknown things. And this is still a human level. Nevertheless, this is already a transitional level, which brings a human closer to a higher level.

"However, they have a ground to firmly step under their feet. And that ground will never betray them, thus, they can live their whole existence without the fear of the terror of falling to hell"┬®Lambdadelta

One of the main differences between humans and higher beings is that they have ground under their feet. This is their advantage. That is, they do not need to make an effort to simply exist, but they do not move through the layers. They do not evolve and do not fall within their domain.


This is the peak of all things and the peak of intelligence. So high that the lower ladder of concepts has lost its meaning. All that was below disappeared. The feeling of footing is already lost, an independent return to human nature is no longer possible.


Although with the help of superior creatures managed to return back to his usual converged conceptual body in the the ordinary world beyond time, space and coordinates.


Our hero could not exceed the peak and could not find kakeras with other chapters.

"Well, even if I turn a human into a god all of a sudden, their minds would just end up dispersing. Maybe it's also necessary for them to gradually accustom their bodies to the atmospheric pressure of the almighty world, while treading on these steps called 'endeavors'"┬®Lambdadelta

Yes, yes, that is exactly what will happen even with a man who has been at the peak of all things.


And not only the higher domain is dangerous. Our hero was only at the beginning of this peak and there are many more concepts in this wall that can destroy his mind.

 

[Ovy7]

This is extremely interesting . . . and crazy. Reading this reminded me of Lovecraft and his cosmic horrors (referring to how the human mind can't comprehend the complexity of the universe).

Fantastic work, DarkLK!

 

[Game_Master_Battler]

Jesus christ this was a good read. I got a sort of hypnos feel from that

 

[Game_Master_Battler]

He was only at the beginning. Im baffled This is from rewrite? Its in english?

 

[Game_Master_Battler]

How many other scans of the cosmology will you have to add? A little more? Alot?

 

[Ovy7]

He was only at the beginning. Im baffled
This is from rewrite? Its in english?

VNDB says that there's an English patch. I'm also curious of reading ReWrite now lol.