When They Cry Revisions

[Game_Master_Battler]

Is there any character besides the creator or featherine with nigh omniscience? It seems like all knowing characters are a big thimg in 1-A and i have to ask myself if some of the 1-A like lucifer or masadaverse characters are really nigh omniscient? I have small knowledge on these verses but im sure their have been times where their mind and knowledge is limited

 

[Game_Master_Battler]

Maybe this is just my reaction to you guys explaining why they arent all knowing. However certain 1-A pages dont have a explanation for why they are all knowing either. Nyar, lucifer, some dies characters dont say why or how they are a knowing

Sorry again if im going off topic

 

[FateAlbane]

Pure and simple, the main reason Umineko characters don't get to be Omniscient is that the cosmology is just that big. Therefore, almost always there are many many things above or several other matters around that even the highest known beings aren't necessarily aware or have no understanding of.

Same way we have 1-As out there who could be considered High 1-A or 0 if they happened to be in another verse but do not get that rating on their verse because there are beings and levels beyond their grasp (looking at you, CM).

Remember that Omniscience is based on knowing all there is to know in *your* verse - the more complex the cosmology of said verse is, the less likely it will be for a bunch of characters to know all there is to be known about it.

About characters from any other series having the rating or not, that is indeed off topic as the matter doesn't really concern this thread.

 

[Game_Master_Battler]

Pure and simple, the main reason Umineko characters don't get to be Omniscient is that the cosmology is just that big. Therefore, almost always there are many many things above or several other matters around that even the highest known beings aren't necessarily aware or have no understanding of.

Same way we have 1-As out there who could be considered High 1-A or 0 if they happened to be in another verse but do not get that rating on their verse because there are beings and levels beyond their grasp (looking at you, CM).

Remember that Omniscience is based on knowing all there is to know in *your* verse - the more complex the cosmology of said verse is, the less likely it will be for a bunch of characters to know all there is to be known about it.

About characters from any other series having the rating or not, that is indeed off topic as the matter doesn't really concern this thread.

Thanks, that makes sense i appreciate it

 

[Game_Master_Battler]

Alright back on topic, the voyagers true forms represent the world of umineko itself except im sort of wondering

Will their true forms also be limited so to supergenius level intelligence?

Their true omnipresence would equate to them being literally everything within the verse, wouldnt this also mean they know everything within the verse

(Honestly im just trying to see if nigh omnisceience is possible for their true forms atleast)

 

[FateAlbane]

(Honestly im just trying to see if nigh omnisceience is possible for their true forms atleast)

Short answer: No.

Long answer: It isn't possible. This should go without saying but the story as a whole literally wouldn't work if anyone there knew everything there is to know in the verse.

We don't even get to see their so-called true forms directly, it's much more something alluded to every now and then. Also Bern and Lambda don't quite reach absolutely everything there is in the verse either as their influence doesn't touch the Creator's Domain. Otherwise they wouldn't point out the matter with Beatrice's untapped power potentially being capable of reaching that domain beyond their own.

Saying they're nigh omniscient regardless of their standing in-verse wouldn't be any different from putting them at the same level of awareness of Featherine herself which again, would directly contradict the story. In fact you might have missed it but at this point DLK said he's not sure if even Featherine herself is Nigh-Omniscient which I agree with as she was clearly entertained with "unexpected events" or "the tales woven by the children of men" as she put it herself in EP 8. Reason I'd still have no trouble with the rating is because of her standing in the verse coupled with her quote of "I know everything, so everything bores me". Yet she enjoys the interpretations of different readers about her stories.

 

[EssentialMinerals]

I believe its mentioned that Voyager's true forms are unconscious to themselves. How that effects intelligence I'm not sure. However their true forms encompass even the domain Beatrice reached although they cannot have a body there. I dont have have any scans so we should wait for DarkLK on that.

 

[FateAlbane]

Beatrice never reached the Creator's Domain, what she has is the potential to at some point reach such heights. Saying she can as she was seen in the series is akin to claiming a baby is as capable as their adult self can be. Yet that potential if reached was taken as well beyond the Voyager's standing as it would reach the same domain Featherine is at.

And both in the manga and the novel Lambda was literally terrified at the very notion of Featherine and the domain above. Claiming her power, knowledge and/or influence reaches the domain above that of witches - true form or not - when the story portrays her as throwing a huge "NOPE!" at said level of existence would be quite the stretch.

 

[EssentialMinerals]

In terms of manifestations the voyagers are limited since they are too fearful to go beyond the ladder of witches. As concepts they are second to only to the Creator as they are the basic concepts that make the world function. Even Featherine's manifestations arent beyond life and death. Also I am uncertain if Beatrice was mentioned to be capable of reaching the Creator's domain or just climbing that domain in between. But again I dont have any scans.

 

[FateAlbane]

No.

Bernkastel in the letter to Featherine, which was already previously mentioned to be from her higher manifestation, 100% states the Creator's Domain/the level Beatrice can reach with her potential is well beyond what she or Lambda can possibly deal with.

From Bernkastel's very own words:




There are no reasons whatsoever to assume Voyagers are on the Creator's domain.
In fact most scans so far contradict that idea when it happens to be adressed.

 

[FateAlbane]

Also saying Voyagers are second only to the Creator is no different from saying Bern and Lambda are comparable to Featherine, which couldn't be any farther from the truth.

 

[DarkLK]

I will try to systematize the information a little later this week.

Also saying Voyagers are second only to the Creator is no different from saying Bern and Lambda are comparable to Featherine, which couldn't be any farther from the truth.

I do not think that Featherine (role/manifestation) can destroy the rules of their concepts. Well, that is, this is something that is connected with the will and kakera.

 

[FateAlbane]

@DLK In that particular regard I'd say it's more that Featherine "wouldn't" than "couldn't" (don't remember her ever having a reason to, or if she needed at some point).

Considering Featherine's manifestation still displays a power well beyond what the Witch Domain allows for when at her most casual, that the story says she is on the level of a Creator within the lower domain and that quote from the novel of: "Was there any chance of winning against her? No. Not only could Lambdadelta not choose to win, she couldn't choose to lose either."

Feels to me like the gap between her manifestation and the others is still well beyond anything else in the series.

 

[DarkLK]

Precisely so, relative or absolute she has absolutely the strongest manifestation. Lambda and Bern are nowhere even close to this. But if we are talking about concepts of voyagers (that is, what they say when they identify themselves with the world), I'm not really sure that they are limited to any particular layer of a some domain. A little later this week I will try to clarify some information.

 

[FateAlbane]

Surely, and no need to rush. o/ I'm always open for new info and views on the subject, since it means I can also learn from it as the thread goes on. I'll be waiting for it!

 

[DarkLK]

I'm too busy revising Daimaou (one of the only few verses about which I personally can't say that the 07th-verse can beat it) on my wiki, so there probably won't be any new info from me this week.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem. Thank you for your help.

 

[DarkLK]

Plans change. I'll probably answer soon, but don't expect too many scans. I will simply state my view on things and probably after that my activity in this topic will decrease many times. For me it is not a problem if you disagree with something. I think that I have already given a lot of scans and useful information in any way.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, this should be very useful for Promestein, Sera, and likely others when they revise the pages.

 

[DarkLK]

Also saying Voyagers are second only to the Creator is no different from saying Bern and Lambda are comparable to Featherine, which couldn't be any farther from the truth.

Well, I didn't say that. The author himself said this in TIPS

ÞꬵÁÀÞÇàÒéêÒéèÚ½ÿõ¢ìÒü«Ú¡öÕÑ│Òü»ÒÇüÚÇáþë®õ©╗Òü¿Õæ╝Òü░ÒéîÒéïÒÇé

~A higher witch than the Voyager is called the Creator.


This is not some theory, it is the nature of the Voyagers. Witches who are limited by territories have their own limit of evolution, because of the fact that their territory has its own top layer. However, by definition, they are conceptual embodiments of their territories and one with them. I already spoke about it above.

Voyagers are not limited to territories and this is their main power. They do not have a specific territory, but they are still a conceptual beings and therefore their concepts operate throughout the world. And, accordingly, they identify themselves with the whole world. And the final point in their journey, which is not limited to a specific theory, is becoming the Creator. They are the only creatures who can understand something about this process and therefore experience excitational fear. I ask you to note that they can understand something from a higher domain than the one where their manifestations are located.

I think I should not explain that when the witches move in layers, their relative abilities, nature and concepts do not change. That is, Voyager will remain Voyager with the same concept, no matter at what point of her voyage she will be located. And as FateAlbane has already noted, the composite ladder passes through all domains, and not only limited to the domain of witches, and at the end of the voyage this is unity with the Creator. This is their world through which they make a voyage.

Someone thinks that I want to say that Bern and Lambda as witches are comparable to Featherine. Of course not, Featherine has an abnormally powerful manifestation. She actually reached the Creator and survived. For all intents and purposes in the lower domains, she is just like the Creator itself.

But even Featherine (manifestation) obeys some rules. She lives and dies and will object on the same principles as other higher beings. That is, she need to think in order to live and she goes into oblivion when she dies.


Dead Featherine is not somewhere beyond the reach of Bern. You remember, she sent her a letter. That is, the sea of nothingness and the depths of oblivion is a common background for all layers and domains.


The Grand Court has access to the depths of oblivion, but the Voyagers still identify themselves with the whole world even in comparison with the inquisitors from the court.

But let's consider specifically when Voyagers talk about their unconscious actions and when they identify themselves with the whole world, what exactly is meant.


The simplest example. The origin of the world is a metaphysical miracle. That is, this is what happened unintentionally, which means that it was inevitable. It is just destiny without the intervention of someone's will factor. Yes, by the way, the peak of all things is part of this world created by a miracle. This tells us how strong the manifestation of Bern will be within a separate layer of the human domain.


"Yeah, seriously. A certain future dwells within certain willpower. Our infatuation with the strength of that will leads us to just unconsciously lend our power, right?"┬®


No matter, Higurashi, Umineko or Rewrite, the factor of will is what determines fate and the future. And it is that what is connected with the concept and power of Lambda, which is opposite to the power of Bern, but at the same time they complement each other.


Above, I have already shown that even the manifestation of higher beings from othingness is associated with a will which is undivided from the life process. Correspondingly, loss of will denotes death. And now remember, who is the reaper/shinigami/god of death.


The Witch of the Fragments aka the Witch of Kakera is another title of Bern. Why? Because the existence of the fragments (i.e., crystallization of fate, realization of possibility, inevitability) this is what is provided by her power.


She created a Fragment with a low probability. Of course, we are talking about an unconscious action, because the Gothic loli really does not do anything like that.

You can say that this is only about fragments with a low probability, but no.


All other fragments where the tragedies occur is also her handiwork. And again, consciously she did nothing of the kind. Just each fragment is a crystallized possibility, one of infinity. Miracle and inevitability at the same time. The world is what it is thanks to her unconscious actions. And the sea of fragments is what the voyage of the voyagers runs through; it does not end on the domain of the witches, it is basically the same place with the sea of nothingness.


I remind you that the Lambda and Bern manifestations periodically try to go in different directions, and there they even said that they had a small chance to meet. But here it says that one is always where the other is. Again, there is clearly a hint at their concepts, which together regulate everything that was, can be and can not be.

þ┤ùÚƒ│: ÒüéÒü¬ÒüƒÒü«Õ╝ÀÒüòÒüîÕÑçÞÀíÒü«þäíµàêµé▓ÒüòÒéÆþñ║ÒüÖÒü¬ÒéëÒÇé……õ¢òÒü¿þÑ×Òü»µ«ïÚàÀÒü¬Òü«Òüï…

ÒâÖÒâ½Òâ│Òé½Òé╣ÒâåÒâ½: ÒüØÒüåÒéêÒÇé

Shannon: ~If your power shows the mercilessness of the miracle... How cruel God is...

Bernkastel: ~That 's right.

Yes, there is also this thing.


Yes, there is also this thing. The original says about the top layer witches (ÕàâÞÇüÚÖóÒü¿ÒüäÒüåÚ¡öÕÑ│ÒüƒÒüíÒü«µ£Çõ©èÕ▒ñÒü½ÚÇåÒéëÒüúÒüƒÒü«Òüá). And the term top layer was also used in reference to what Featherine touched (Õ¢╝ÕÑ│Òü»ÒÇüÞç│ÒüúÒüªÒü»Òü¬ÒéëÒü¼µ£Çõ©èÕ▒ñÒü½ÞºªÒéîÒü¬ÒüîÒéëÒÇüþöƒÒüìÒüªÕ©░ÒüúÒüªÒüìÒüƒÒÇü……þÑ×Òü«Õø¢ÒéêÒéèþöƒÚéäÒüùÒüƒÚ¡öÕÑ│Òü¬Òü«Òüá).

Considering that the roles of the Voyagers/Senators are supposed to be provided by some of the qualities of God, I personally can well assume that their concepts exist on the top layer of the whole Creation and so they cover the whole world and that's why their manifestations can reach the Creator. Featherine is anomalous because even her manifestation reached this level but survived as an individual.

So what did I want to say? Voyagers are avatars of some kind of global forces/functionsthat act in all of Creation. But this in fact does not give their manifestations anything but the unlimited potential of evolution, which ends with the transformation into a Creator. Also, their manifestations should be revived as long as the rules of their concepts exist. However, as in the case of Beatrice, resurrected beings may differ from the original ones.

This is how I see their "true forms", that is, what they have in mind when they identify themselves with the world. Why do I even think that it needs to be mentioned, if it is not even a combat characters? Well, I used it only in the versus thread with the outer gods, because their "true forms" also do not destroy anyone and do not fight with anyone and are just impersonal functions of the static Creation. I started talking about it just to hint that "background vs character" or "background vs background" is not something that can be called a normal battle, and it doesn't matter whether it is Nyarlatotep, his nephew Yog-Sothoth or any other archetypical being, they will not and cannot fight or destroy each other each other by definition. We can only compare their importance for the Creation and the complexity of this Creation.

In any case, this is how I see the statistics explanations for the three keys of the Voyagers (Bern in particular).

Key 1 (Relative characteristics/Human Domain manifestation/piece): has control over miracles, the metaphysical power that underlies the existence of the world/Shinra Bansho, which in addition to the three-dimensional universe includes a far higher dimensions, complex quantum structures, wave functions, as well as unimaginable realms out of all time, space/place and coordinates/dimensions, and beyond it there are transcendental coneptual hierarchy, where higher concepts cannot be defined in terms of infinity and everything listed below, and at the peak of existence and intellect disappears even the meaning of steps which determine perspectives of everything that was below

Key 2 (Higher order being/Witch Domain manifestations): is a being of the Witch Domain, completely surpasses any conceptualization of the Human Domain, which already represents a existentional hierarchy of layers that differ from each other as reality and fiction, and where within each individual layer there are own versions of worlds, which including everything from normal humans creatures to the peak of existence; has manifestations on various layers of the domain of the witches, which also differ in reality and fiction; constantly evolving, moving higher and higher along the layers

Key 3 (unconscious nature/concept): she does not have her own territory and limitations of scale and evolution, and therefore her manifestations can potentially move anywhere and evolve as much as possible until merging with the Creator's boundlessness, which is beyond all hierarchies of all domains, including a higher domain than the witches domain; is an unconscious meta-conceptual entity that identified with all of Creation, and it is assumed that the functions of this role represents a certain quality of God itself

 

[FateAlbane]

@DLK Considering the reply, I'll go by parts. I agree with most so I don't need to generally adress the points concerning them having absolute power anywhere up to the top of the Witches Domain.

In fact, when I posted the OMKC scans where Bernkastel and Lambda mention treason against the world itself this is generally the idea I had in mind. That regardless of their current manifestation, they actually encompass the entire hierarchy all the way up to the apex of the domain they're shown at (which should still be far higher than anything else in the series sans Featherine).

This TIP doesn't quite say they are second-only to the Creator, rather that at the ends of their evolution they will become more and more akin to it (like in Featherine's case) or outright merge with it if they don't perish. It goes on to say they're afraid of becoming a higher-order being (and that would be because of this matter of losing sense of self in the process, like explained in the Memoirs from Lambdadelta).

So when I say "I don't see them being on the capability to reach or influence the Creator's domain" we can sort of turn the chessboard around and say "I see it only if we treat that in more or less the same way as Beatrice (or perhaps MARIA) - untapped potential that they have not yet any access to but may come to possess eventually."

Same way Beatrice does not even realize or comprehend her power, Bernkastel and Lambda actively avoid the notion of becoming a being from the Higher Domain. It's not a matter of "they can't ever reach it" - it's that they are yet to and may lose themselves in the process. In that regard I'm not sure how we can give them a highest potential end when MARIA for example gets only a note mentioning how she isn't even close to what she can eventually become instead.

This doesn't clash with the scans I posted above from Bern's higher manifestation letter to Featherine .

"The Grand Court has access to the depths of oblivion, but the Voyagers still identify themselves with the whole world even in comparison with the inquisitors from the court."

Actually and If I recall correctly, Dlanor once said in EP8 that the Court can't reach the Depths. Which is why they couldn't get Erika back despite doing all they could:

"The depths of oblivion are like an empty endless desert, or perhaps the bottom of the SEA. No one besides Lady Bernkastel herself could find her LOCATION..."

The peak of all things is good for expanding the idea of how much they are identified with the world, but the Peak is still an all-encompassing part of the Human Domain. And yes, I agree on how Lambda and Bern influence the world subconsciously (I remember I also talked about that with you a few months back), so no problem whatsoever there.

This is a minor nitpick and doesn't change my overall way of seeing things, but only in Lion's case, didn't Bernkastel do it consciously? I remember Willard specifically saying - or Bern herself - that she had to make a bigger catbox so that she could fit said fragment in it.

---

"So what did I want to say? Voyagers are avatars of some kind of global forces/functions that act in all of Creation. But this in fact does not give their manifestations anything but the unlimited potential of evolution, which ends with the transformation into a Creator. Also, their manifestations should be revived as long as the rules of their concepts exist. However, as in the case of Beatrice, resurrected beings may differ from the original ones."

This particular quote summarizes my opinion.

Therefore I agree with everything in Key 1 and Key 2 but I'm very iffy on treating Key 3 like it's something they have full access to and being capable of manifesting anywhere all the way up to reaching the same sort of final boundaries Featherine has once crossed to stand where she is. From what I get from all the scans so far it seems to me like they have absolute capabilities of manifestation anywhere up to apex of the Witches domain.

It seems contradictory or at least like a massively (assumed) high-end to put their true forms as having their reaches already at such heights when the story seems to generally point in the other direction.

...But as I'm no owner of truth, maybe that's just me. I'll wait to see what others - and the ones in charge of actively editing the profiles when the revision is done - think for the timebeing.

 

[DarkLK]

I can understand the doubts about the status of personification of the world. But the opinion that the Voyagers cannot reach the Creator status is ... strange. I have not met anyone before with such interpretation.


Except for the plural in relation to the Creator, basically everything is correct here.

"Witch of a higher order than Voyager is called Creator". This is literally the words of the author.

Transformation into the Creator is the end of the Voyagers' voyage. And until the very end, they will remain Voyagers. And since they understand (the only of all beings) what this transformation means, they are trying to do everything to avoid it, but also not to die from other causes.

"The more a witch seeks freedom and power, the more they are freed from all restrictions proportionally"

They have this endless ladder in front of them. And they know what to do with it. But they also know what will happen in the end. Unlike Maria and Beatrice, they understand everything perfectly.

"However, we have to accept some definite restrictions and limits and leave some footing so that we won't fall. The witches who are not afraid of this have far, far less of those restrictions, ... than me."

Lambda is afraid of her own evolution and holds it as she can. But she can't stop her drift anyway. They are not and cannot be in stasis due to this drift. They do not have any fixed layer in the Witch Domain.

"The depths of oblivion are like an empty endless desert, or perhaps the bottom of the SEA. No one besides Lady Bernkastel herself could find her LOCATION..."

That's right, they just can't find her location on this bottom. The problem is in the location, and not in the fact that they do not have access there.

"This is a minor nitpick and doesn't change my overall way of seeing things, but only in Lion's case, didn't Bernkastel do it consciously? I remember Willard specifically saying - or Bern herself - that she had to make a bigger catbox so that she could fit said fragment in it".

No, this is different. Bern created a composite world of several fragments for the game. But in my scan it says about the original fragment of Lion. This is the thing that nobody created. they even paid attention to this at the end of the episode, when we were shown the tragic future of this fragment, that this is not someone's game, but how things actually happen.

I have no problems with the completion of the third key.

 

[FateAlbane]

@DLK Indeed. I didn't say they can't ever reach it, though, just that as far as the story has shown, it seems to me that they have yet to - whether it's their manifestation or true form.

Also of note is that I also agree with them being a personification of the world (the reason I originally posted the scans from OMKC was to support that).

The main point where our visions seem to differ is that I believe their true manifestations have full control of it - or can be seen as the stage - anywhere up to the apex of the Witch Domai, but the same cannot be said as a matter of fact if it's all the way to the Creator's domain.

Naturally, they still have the potential to become unrestricted like that in the Creator's domain as well but aren't yet close to that stage of evolution. Hence another reason as to why, just as you put it, they still get the title of Voyager and are escaping from that endpoint for the timebeing, lest they risk losing themselves/crashing down to the depths. It makes it look like they can't rise to those heights at their current state of existence and need more time to evolve. Or as Lambda has put it:

"...... You're really a burly witch.
I see, as long as you have a title that says you are that, nobody will be able to deny that you are a witch, huh.
...... But, tell me.
A god and the Creator are still a god and the Creator even without anyone recognizing them, you know?
And it should be the same for the witches.
... Even if nobody recognizes you, if you are a witch, you should be a witch even if I don't recognize you.
Am I correct?"

"Witches are proportionally released from their constraints as they seek for more freedom and power.
Restrictions here meaning the physical world. In other words, in order to do that, witches such as myself and those of the same rank will reach the point where we steadily drift off further and further from the physical, human world."

"But this witch accomplished it in the human world.
That is, even with the body of a human, her feet are treading upon the same world as ours...!

No... On the contrary, her composition formula is too deep.
While I've been climbing down the well on the ladder one rung at a time over the course of millennia, it's as though she opened up a parasol and used that as a parachute to swoop down to the depths... and at what speed...!"

...Naturally, there's the danger that that parasol might break, sending her plummeting down to abyss just like that.
Because of that recklessness, impulsiveness of youth and despise for the likes of humans... as well as my interest in seeing how far this witch would be able to go, I decided to shed some light on this world yet unknown to me and felt honoured to be able to smell the sweet fragrance of this black tea that I had never savoured before.

The quotes from Lambdadelta in your reply just now, the quotes I just posted and Bernkastel's own dialogue in the letter scans above seem to crystallize the idea like that to me since the Voyagers themselves seem to keep underlining this separation between their own level and that of the domain above. Along with Lambda mentioning how it took her "millenia" to reach her current state (likely referencing the recurring "Lived a Thousand Years" theme in the series) and how she wanted Sayo to get to the same point as fast as possible.

But again, that is my own Blue Truth way of seeing things. It could be right, it could be wrong. I'm simply raising the point for thoughts on it.

About the depths of Oblivion matter, I do remember that Bern actually sent a single cat to go there and "guide Erika back", too. So there's that. Other than that, understood.

In Lion's case I meant the making of the catbox being made consciously, not the fragments. What Willard/Bern says is that the fragment is enough of a miracle that Bern had to actually make a bigger catbox so it would fit within Beato's board. I don't disagree with the Kakera being something she doesn't need to actively be making since Bern usually just harvests them from wherever they happen to be. But your point covered that either way so it answered my question regardless.

Same. I'm mostly neutral on the third key and how it's going to be treated. I'm more raising these points so that others can analyze and make heads or tails of it when the revisions do happen, myself. If it ends up being different from how I see it and more like others see it, I suppose I'll simply go along with what the ones doing the revision say.

 

[Game_Master_Battler]

I'm too busy revising Daimaou (one of the only few verses about which I personally can't say that the 07th-verse can beat it) on my wiki, so there probably won't be any new info from me this week.

You actually think its that powerful? Is thecosmology bigger or something, Does it have a true omnipotent? Can i check your wiki to read on it

So many mindblowing things in this thread

 

[DarkLK]

FateAlbane, I will answer tomorrow or later.

Xaintxeiya, I actually think its that powerful (I'm not saying that it is more powerful, though). Unfortunately, there are still months of work, we are only completing the analysis of the original text. I can give you a link when the work is completed at least in part.

 

[Game_Master_Battler]

FateAlbane, I will answer tomorrow or later.

Xaintxeiya, I actually think its that powerful (I'm not saying that it is more powerful, though). Unfortunately, there are still months of work, we are only completing the analysis of the original text. I can give you a link when the work is completed at least in part.

A link would be great, thanks

 

[FateAlbane]

@DLK Sure thing. o/

 

[Game_Master_Battler]

FateAlbane, I will answer tomorrow or later.

Xaintxeiya, I actually think its that powerful (I'm not saying that it is more powerful, though). Unfortunately, there are still months of work, we are only completing the analysis of the original text. I can give you a link when the work is completed at least in part.

That reminds me. Regarding the hierarchal ladder and the peak of all things was this the result of just trying to ascend up A SINGLE layer? A friend had quoted

"They go in-depth as to how they transcend concepts before even reaching the second layer, to the extent to where they transcend even indescribable concepts and incomprehensible inscrutability and shit."

 

[DarkLK]

If you go beyond the peak, then you go beyond the domain. Because in the human domain there is no movement between the layers.

However, as long as you do not go out, you remain part of the current story on a certain world on a certain layer.

And this whole structure including even the peak will be a fiction for anyone and anything in a higher layer, which also contains worlds with a similar internal structure.

In higher domains, this is similar to what you described; there is an evolution between layers. But here is just a metaphorical equivalent.

They do not overcome the internal conceptual hierarchy again every time. Relative abilities and power remain the same for each layer, only the height of the layer changes and this metaphorically symbolizes release from limitations.

But speaking essentially briefly, yes, even indescribable concepts and incomprehensible inscrutability of some layer means nothing even for a lower being from the higher layer of the same domain.

 

[Ovy7]

Ok, so, let's say that the entire hierarhy is going from 0 to infinite. 0 is the Human Domain and 1 is the Peak of All Things and the "place" where the Domain of Witches begins. So when a "human" goes from 0 to 1 and becomes a "Witch", he trancends every concept in the Human Domain like time, space, dimensional axis, etc.

Did I got it right?

 

[DarkLK]

Reaching the peak of all things and surpassing it are completely different things. The concepts of time, space, place of all coordinates/axis have a rather low position, far lower than the peak. And reaching the peak does not even advance you by one step in the infinite composite ladder (roughly speaking, the human domain is the third part of this ladder).

Here is my chart (I know, everyone loves my charts). Perhaps it will be clearer.

Simple enough to know, that the difference between the layers is greater than the difference between the normal dimensional objects and something that transcending space, time and all coordinates.

And the difference between domains is the qualitative difference between different hierarchies of layers.

 

[DarkLK]

@FateAlbane

I personally build my interpretation (in fact, the other guy originally suggested it to me) on a set of things we know.

1) The next evolutionary stage for voyagers is the Creator => they will retain their status and nature even if their manifestations are above the witch domain

2) The territory where the rules of the concept are applied becomes one with the conceptual being and voyagers do not have their special territories => Voyagers are one with the whole world, because they embody some global laws that operate on different layers and domains in a sea of fragments and nothingness

3) Territories are the limits for the manifestation of conceptual beings, even the limits of the available layer are determined by the territory but the voyagers have the whole endless ladder in front of them and can increase their power in proportion to their own desires => the territory of the whole world accessible by a voyager is not limited to any particular domain

4) Voyagers are afraid of their evolution, but no one except them can understand this => Voyagers have a deep understanding of cosmology, unlike those like Maria and Beatrice

5) The laws of the Voyagers are not directly related to their identities, they are just former humans whose souls and concepts have united with global laws, which probably come from the Creator itself => these laws give potential and territory to their own manifestations, but the laws themselves do not depend on this potential of individuals of individual manifestations, they would work even without them (they literally worked even when Ricka and Miyoko was a humans, although of course there are no problems with paradoxes in the verse)

I think our main discrepancy lies in the fifth paragraph. I view their personalities as mere appendages to the unconscious functions of the whole creation. And yes, I do not think that they have some manifestations that are completely controlled by something. Their manifestations and their internal potential are unstable, they cannot just stop at any particular layer due to drift. If they could, they would not be afraid before endpoint.

 

[Game_Master_Battler]

So if i simplify it. Its like some infinite inaccesible cosmology

 

[DarkLK]

Something like that.

 

[FateAlbane]

I think our main discrepancy lies in the fifth paragraph. I view their personalities as mere appendages to the unconscious functions of the whole creation. And yes, I do not think that they have some manifestations that are completely controlled by something. Their manifestations and their internal potential are unstable, they cannot just stop at any particular layer due to drift. If they could, they would not be afraid before endpoint.

True, I don't have a disagreement with most things you said. But I don't seem to see eye to eye with the notion of this reaching up to the higher domain (yet).

Particularly because the way their general quotes and views on the matter were presented, it seems to me like they become more and more identified with the world as they keep evolving until that would, eventually, reach the Creator lvl - couple it with things such as Lambda saying "getting rid of restrictions/more and more removed from the physical sense of the world as you ascend" or "I could make a human into a god but then they would simply disperse" on top of her specifically stating she was going down the ladder over the course of millenia to avoid dispersal and the other quotes.

So while I take the lack of a territory to mean that they can and will indeed keep evolving endlessly without the limits of a gameboard to hold them back, it always felt to me like Bern and Lambda have yet to - hence the comparison with in my eyes, Featherine being the only one who actually already went there.

As far as the story has been presented, they already identify with the whole of the Witch Domain to me - but the one above is yet "uncharted territory" so to speak even for them. Which is something backed up by Lambda's reaction to the higher domain and Featherine, by Bern's words in the letter and the general distinction the Voyagers seem to make and other such instances.

A way to summarize this line of thought is that the Creator already is identified with everything as a whole in the story, all domains included --- Meanwhile Bern and Lambda/Voyagers together, as they lose restrictions in the ladder, will gradually become the same in higher and higher levels of it. Because they seem to still be in the stage of evolution and "drifting" is another reason why our interpretations diverge when it comes to this. I think they have yet to encompass/identify with the Laws in the higher domain - that being something that is to happen, eventually (as it's a process even they can't just "perpetually stop"). But before it does, they encompass/identify with the world up to the apex of the witch domain because that's as far as they have lost restrictions in their path to become more and more like the Creator.

 

[FateAlbane]

Still, that is to say where my views on this come from, not to generally enforce them.

If the interpretation of them already being expansive enough to encompass the Creator's Domain is the one that gets used in the profiles, that is naturally the one I'll be going with around here as well.

 

[DarkLK]

I'm saying that Voyagers = the world for the same reason, why Beatrice = her gameboard or why Renoir = his classroom. These are the places where the rules and stories that they embody.

The laws of the voyagers are just the laws of the world. They will exist even without manifestations. They have always been. It is for this reason that it is a separate key.

There are two reasons why I believe that the world in this case is not just a witch domain.

1) Their laws have more values in the human domain, simply because this domain is more connected with fate. Although, of course, for Voyagers, even higher beings are also parts of some stories and fates/kakera.

2) Their manifestations/inner evolution are somewhere on the hierarchy of the witch domain, and all the time they are moving along this ladder. They do not cover the entire domain.

 

[DarkLK]

In any case, I propose to change the explanation for the third key to more uncertain, to leave room for interpretations.

 

[FateAlbane]

@DLK I noticed this clash also arrives because "The World" in this particular matter is sort of like a catbox, too. Because it can be taken to mean the Witch Domain - that notion is also supported when the narration expanded on Featherine being in a world/domain above that of even the witches in those two well-known scans.

But one thing is that I never disagreed that the laws will keep existing without manifestation. The only point where our visions differ is that as far as I believe these laws encompass everything up to the entire Witch Domain (and are still expanding to higher heights), whereas you believe the laws already encompass all the way up to the Creator's domain.

In both cases it's irrelevant whether or not manifestations are killed, erased or anything - they're just far more "restricted" projections of the stage they really represent. Other than that, it's all the same.

1. I don't disagree with that. Which is why I said "I believe they identify with everything up to the Witch domain as of now".

2. I meant the laws and not the manifestations, yes.

 

[FateAlbane]

In any case, I propose to change the explanation for the third key to more uncertain, to leave room for interpretations.

I think that is indeed the best way to treat the third key, yes. Even moreso when by their very nature, Voyagers are always in the process of evolving/drifting more and more towards higher levels, whether they want to or not.