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The Only Thing They Fear Is... You - DOOM Revisions (Part 1)
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Vietthai96
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Huh, why it isn't there before??
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i'm leaning towards disagree on low 1-a, as these statements seem to contradict each other. how can a resource from a plane that's supposedly not bounded by dimensionality be extra-dimensional if it's formless and transcends dimensions in the first place?
also, if a plane is unbounded by the notion of dimensionality, how can it's inhabitants be trans/extra-dimensional, if for one to be able to be extra/trans-dimensional needs to have their existence tied to the notion of dimensions in the first place
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The inhabitants being dimensioned isn't really a problem since low 1-A is still of physical composition. Only hell in it's entirety would be low 1-A out of sheer size.
ShionAH
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We live in a 4D word but we are 3D lol but yeah what @BestMGQScalerEver said
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hm. this doesn't seem to be the case. nowhere in those scans is stated that hell is just too large to be a dimensional space in it's own right, it is stated that the own nature of hell is formless, outside of dimensionality. according to bde page, there are two possible ways to argue that a plane of existence exceeds dimensionality as a whole, and shion uses the second by presenting these scans: according to it, not by size alone but by nature (as it is "ultimate" and "formless"), is qualitatively superior to dimensions
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It's not referring to formlessness as in superiority over the physical but formlessness as in a place with non-physical characteristics and his rule being "formless" and "ultimate" in a more "abstract" and figurative sense than literal. So I think that should be removed from OP.
The Hell scan is referring to it being unlimited by any boundaries of space time or dimension which by being a "boundary", hell being unlimited or unbound by said boundaries would be in excess of size so it's not really any contradiction to say it has normally dimensioned subsections of its physical composition that dont reflect on the entirety of it.
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i see. yeah, that is a better interpretation. it's better to asume that the use of the word "formless" is just flowery language rather than taking those terms literally. it would be pretty stupid of the developers to describe hell as superior to all physical forms only for them to apply terms like dimension to it lol
i honestly think the same
with the "formless" statement out of the way, then this interpretation becomes much more logical. @ShionAH switch my vote to fully agree with everything presented on the thread
W yapping tbh
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No nor does the scan provide any type of tiering support.
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i mean, it maybe could (with a little bit of stretch and support from other statements), but there are multiple possible interpretations of that statement, and that interpretation comes into conflict with other statements
if we were to take the "formless" statement literally and say that hell is a construct beyond any physical form, by definition nothing that takes part in it would have dimensions
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Vietthai96
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when did formless automatically being abstract??
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What???
Vietthai96
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I meant abstract as in something without an actual defined substance or existence (purely ideal) not how we define abstract existence.
Vietthai96
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oke, damn, i got your comment messed up somehow
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Btw, i agree. I see this scans with transcendent to space, time and dimension thousands time, and every time i thought that its can be a Low 1-A.
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How many people have agreed Low 1-A so far?
Georredannea15
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If I start from Low 1-A, a simple statement of "transcended space-time and dimensions" basically does not prove to you this superiority... You don't need qualitative superiority like 1-A, but you need quantitative superiority, but what the scan says is literally "Hell is unlimited by the boundaries of space, time, or dimension."
In short, it is unlimited, there is basically no expression of superiority here...
I will now come to Urdak 5-D;
The only phrase left is "higher dimension" but there are 2 problems here;
1- High dimension according to what?
2- Is the expression "higher dimension" really used in a spatial sense?
But I didn't see the answer to these there... So "higher dimension" by itself is a very muddy area, an empty and unsupported statement... So I don't think it will be enough.
Also the expression "unreachable" means that people cannot enter there using technology, in short, there is still no spatial expression.
The fact that hell is already timeless is the biggest reason why Maykrs who can see infinite timelines cannot see hell, using it as a support is not a good option
The power of hell can anhance beings to a higher plateau of existence.
But I will quote the sentence in full to better understand its context ;
In fact, these powers are so great that even mortals cannot comprehend them... For example, mortals cannot comprehend immortality and infinite knowledge... Just these...
Page also says this;
At best, this means that Hell has an extra axis of 3D beings. And that basically gives it 4-D, because the comparison here is literally made for beings with a 3-D axis
That this is basically... I don't think it makes spatial sense, maybe I'm missing something or maybe you have more, but the scan tells me that what people cannot grasp is the power and law as destiny wills it, it's basically a "power comparison." It doesn't give you anything in terms of axis, unless you have something extra.
Extra-dimensional relative to what?”
Also, is the expression extra-dimensional used in a spatial sense here?
If I were to quote the phrase;
I can't say I agree with the Urdak and Hell stuff in general... There are a lot of expressions, but they are far from the context needed for 5-D and 6-D, you will need context for that.
All of them seem like definite expressions at first glance (which is what I thought at first), but when I look at it completely, it turns out that they are used in very different meanings. Other than that, I totally agree with the CM 1 type and other abilities...
Edit: 5-D might be a possibility. But I don't think so...
In short, it is unlimited, there is basically no expression of superiority here...
I will now come to Urdak 5-D;
If I interpret the scans in general, it is stated here that Urdak is a higher dimension that is a realm beyond technology, that is, instead of comparing the mortal realm/mortal timelines with Urdak, it only compares human technology with Urdak.
The only phrase left is "higher dimension" but there are 2 problems here;
1- High dimension according to what?
2- Is the expression "higher dimension" really used in a spatial sense?
But I didn't see the answer to these there... So "higher dimension" by itself is a very muddy area, an empty and unsupported statement... So I don't think it will be enough.
Also the expression "unreachable" means that people cannot enter there using technology, in short, there is still no spatial expression.
All right, I will continue piece by piece...
The fact that hell is already timeless is the biggest reason why Maykrs who can see infinite timelines cannot see hell, using it as a support is not a good option
The power of hell can anhance beings to a higher plateau of existence.
But I will quote the sentence in full to better understand its context ;
Well, when I quote the phrase in full, the "higher existence" mentioned here actually means greater powers... Knowledge, immortality, healing power and more, I know I've used it a lot here but this phrase, like a few others, is just used for "power explanation" ...
In fact, these powers are so great that even mortals cannot comprehend them... For example, mortals cannot comprehend immortality and infinite knowledge... Just these...
Page also says this;
So really... what you need is context
I have already explained this above, but this expression basically means that space, time and dimension are limitless. I don't think it's a superiority and if you remember I told you that, man.
And this is something that is fundamentally confused. What the scan says is that "3D beings are seen by hell as one-dimensional beings, not that a vast multiverse is seen by hell as one-dimensional"
At best, this means that Hell has an extra axis of 3D beings. And that basically gives it 4-D, because the comparison here is literally made for beings with a 3-D axis
When I look at the scan, mortals are basically accessing portals between space and time. But they can't graps hell... When I look at the scans, what people basically can't comprehend here is that "as fate ordained, there are higher powers and laws."
That this is basically... I don't think it makes spatial sense, maybe I'm missing something or maybe you have more, but the scan tells me that what people cannot grasp is the power and law as destiny wills it, it's basically a "power comparison." It doesn't give you anything in terms of axis, unless you have something extra.
Well, I will say the same things as above.
Extra-dimensional relative to what?”
Also, is the expression extra-dimensional used in a spatial sense here?
If I were to quote the phrase;
You can see that the expression "extra-dimensional" here is not really used in a spatial sense, or rather, it is difficult to tell in what sense it is used just by looking at this sentence.
The HDE page states that extradimensional just means "out of dimension" unless used in a spatial sense... So... Actually the phrase I quoted is closer to that
I can't say I agree with the Urdak and Hell stuff in general... There are a lot of expressions, but they are far from the context needed for 5-D and 6-D, you will need context for that.
All of them seem like definite expressions at first glance (which is what I thought at first), but when I look at it completely, it turns out that they are used in very different meanings. Other than that, I totally agree with the CM 1 type and other abilities...
Edit: 5-D might be a possibility. But I don't think so...
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Way to completely gloss over it.
It's unlimited as in space/time/dimensions are boundaries while Hell is unlimited by space/time/dimensions as boundaries.
That's a pretty cut and dry statement regarding superiority as it refers to Hell being unlimited by dimensions (which are considered boundaries) in a general sense.
Georredannea15
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It not said "space/time/ all dimensions", it literaly said "Hell is unlimited by the boundaries of space, time, or dimension." Both are different
Also assuming that mortals and being enter and exit Hell in more than one later on, that would be even muddier territory.
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It is a crossover:
Crossovers
A crossover is the placement of two or more characters originating from different continuities/franchises/verses into a single story. Non-canon crossovers do not officially take place within any of the involved continuities. Examples may include Marvel Vs Capcom, Mortal Kombat Vs DC Universe, or...
vsbattles.fandom.com
For the purpose of the thread, there needs to establish that Quake is a canon crossover.
An example of a non-canon crossover is PlayStation All-Stars Battle Royale, which is also a battle arena bringing warriors from across time and space:
PlayStation All-Stars Battle Royale
For detailed information about this series from the PlayStation All-Stars Battle Royale Wiki you can click here. PlayStation All-Stars Battle Royale (プレイステーション オールスター・バトルロイヤル), is a crossover platform fighting game released for the PlayStation 3 and PlayStation Vita. It was developed at SuperBot...
vsbattles.fandom.com
The transformation is specifically for "the deathly essence of slain Summoner demons, a rare caste in Hell."
Are there examples of humans or Night Sentinel transforming into parasite ghosts, instead of normal ghosts?
I am ok with Possibly Tier 6. But it is not stated that the Doom Slayer will automatically transform into a parasite ghost after death.
The skeleton phase is because they already died, and then were resurrected by others into cyborg monsters. The other scan is Quake-specific zombies, and would be an anti-feat for the supposed negation as it would mean Quake characters also can't kill them.
Since they have a physical form, they are not intangible.
Do you have evidence, that if a normal marine shot at their physical form with a shotgun or rocket launcher they wouldn't similarily die?
The mother demon survived (with crippling injuries) before she resurrected other demons. We are told that she can regenerate and resurrect other demons, not that she can resurrect herself after death.
Aren't you making a new profile to replace the current profile?
Type 1 is Time Paradox Immunity.
A character (ex. Doom Slayer, Night Sentinel squads) teleporting into a realm beyond time isn't a good argument for giving them Type 1 Acasuality.
If they are from different alternative timelines, and not the same timeline, it wouldn't give Acasuality.
Then we should focus on other, more legitimate proofs, instead.
That is just Type 2 Immortality.
No scan was provided that says Davoth is unbound by mortality.
The argument provided is that Maykrs are said to be unbound by mortality. However this is from the prespective of Night Sentinels who didn't know much about them, and the statement could apply to Tier 1 Immortality:
| These were beings unlike any we had seen before, sword and shield held no weight against them, for the ethereal flesh of these luminous beings seemed unbound by mortality. |
We later learn than the Maykrs' eventually suffer mental and biological degradation, and were dependent on the Father repetedly resurrecting them. And after the Father left the process of resurrection became incomplete, they instead became dependent on Argent Energy to sustain themselves:
| Despite their seeming Godliness, the Maykrs have a past. At some point in their ageless history there is mention of 'the Father'; a logical, alien entity that endowed the Maykrs with their vast knowledge and technical ability. Analysis of Maykr artifacts and scripture indicate that the Father may have been a singular being that 'split' to form the Maykr race, or instead transferred his incalculable power into the vast structure known as Urdak which then birthed the Maykrs in perpetuity. It seems that the Maykrs, though exceptionally long-lived, eventually suffer some form of biological and mental degradation, at which point they undergo a process known as 'the Transfiguration' wherin they allow a voluntary death and resurrection somehow tied to the Father. This process may have been complicated or damaged in the recent past. [...] Urdak itself exists in an anchor state, utilizing highly advanced dimensional shift technology to allow a static position at a sub-quantum level. This essentially inverts their position in relation to Hell; both planes of existence are fixed outside the bounds of the known universe, a 'lower' and 'higher' reality. The Khan Maykr oversees all within Urdak, and now utilizes Argent Energy to prevent the Transfiguration. ~Story of the Maykrs: Urdak |
The Icon of Sin shook parts of Urdak, and physically damaged some of its structures.
Does this make him Tier 1 physically?
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Because both space and time can be collectively referred to as "dimension" so when saying "or dimension" it means spatio-temporal dimensions.
It's basically saying "space, time or it can be known as dimension"
Georredannea15
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Saying "or dimension" does not add all dimensions by default. Because here it expresses the "space, time or dimension" separately, it is not called "space-time" as a whole.
ShionAH
He/Him- 17,160
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Slipgates (Technology from the Quake series) being used by the Sentinels
Doomguy himself, wielding the BFG9K, making an appearance in Quake
Quoting @Gewsbumpz_dude: "Kind of hard to argue against that, especially since iD Software has a history of connecting their games together."
There is also no anti feats...
Undeads are able to achieve something similar by just being really angry and having hatred
Summoners from DOOM 2016 were able to become ghosts, giving shape to their discorporate essence
And Doom Guys rage and hatred >>>>
Scan for that?
That does not mean anything, they are tangible but the thing here is that they can create a body for their soul yet when Doom Guy kills them they poof out and never come back.
I dont need to prove that the entire verse lacks Low-Godly Regeneration, that is just an impossible question.
Mother Demon is able to use her powers to heal herself and heal other demons, her healing powers were shown to range from healing crippling injuries to literally bringing back Cyberdemon, who were reduced to just a hoof in the original games and Lost Souls, souls that can achieve physical forms from nothing.
Yet she was able to be killed by Doom Guy.
So?
It is only supporting feat anyway, Maykr feat is the real deal.
Uh...those are already on the profile. YOU are the one focusing on that.
Fair.
Let me put you through the simple mind walk.
Maykrs want to be Immortal like Davoth
They try and try and are only able to achieve "unbound by mortality" which I personally think is Immortality 5.
If Davoth is still more Immortal than them. What do you think Davoth is?
Take a guess. What could his Immortality be. At what level he could be?
"sword and shield held no weight against them"
This is NOT talking about their aging process.
You have your answer right there, their mind and their councioussness decay. Which is something that Immortality Type 5 is not able to protect you from.
First of all affecting higher structures like this is Limited Dimensional Manipulation like I told you, affecting the entirety in a high manner is Tier 1
Anyways can Icon of Sin survive attacks from Crucible? 'Cause I think you could argue he is Tier 1
Edit: This ability is also just there as Filler, if Urdak gets rejected and stays 4D then the ability will be removed anyway.
Funny thing I wanted to mention, our wiki already accepts Keen and Doom Guy as Family.
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Vietthai96
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I mean, depend on interpretation i think, one could think that unlimited by boundary of space, time and dimensions just mean outside of these thing
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Do we accept Commander Keen and its events as canon to DOOM?
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I'm not following what your argument is for type 8 immortality Doomguy, none of this remotely mentions anything about how he cannot die due to his status as a slayer, just that there will always be a slayer to exist, which doesn't really tell me much on him being immortal.
Immortality negation for type 1 isn't a thing unless Doomguy is actively removing the ability for them to live forever, any normal person can kill a type 1 immortal being as all that immortality does is let you not die of old age.
A good chunk of the acausality type 4 text is repeating itself so you need to clean that up.
That's not Acausality Negation, affecting the demons with those abilities just means his abilities can affect acausal beings, if it was negation, he'd literally remove their status of being acausal in the first place.
Why is the fate and probability hax using the same reasoning as his type 4 Acausality? Is there anything that remotely proves that Doomguy's able to rewrite fate and possibilities to make it to where he always wins or is the "constant" text the only thing available? Because that's just acausality at best.
Are the spirits in Doom by default invisible to the naked eye? Without that text, I don't see why him seeing evil spirits grants him extrasensory perception.
I'm sorry but why is any of those stuff free movement? The walkthrough guy literally describes it as an invisible bridge and walking on water or blood doesn't tell me much when it's not elaborated to be deep.
So what part of Doomguy being able to absorb energy of those he kills have anything to do with reactive evolution and adaptation? This is just energy absorption and the quake stuff is just accelerated development stuff at best. None of this tells me he's adapting to the environment or is facing an ability he can't deal with, but then develops counters on the fly against it.
Some of the scans for the resistances are from another wiki, you should upload them to this wiki.
Where's the icon of sin's law hax stuff? I see reality warping for the resistances but no law hax.
You double posted the same scans for disease resistance, just leave it as one.
Did you mess up with the resistance of the blur artifact and Cacodemons? Because you labeled it as extrasensory perception and clairvoyance resistance instead of perception manipulation.
Still not seeing Reactive Evolution and Adaptation for defeating a titan, that's just accelerated development.
The invulnerability for the praetor suit isn't invulnerable, the scan even says "The suit was extracted from the rock, cleaned, and subjected to numerous tolerance tests, and found to be almost impervious to any damage" which implies it's just really strong and durable, not that it's literally incapable of being damaged by conventional strikes.
Is the dimensional travel and time travel stuff ever elaborated upon? Because knowing how Hell works that sounds more like he warped through different realms thanks to hell more than him actively doing it himself.
Higher dimensional manipulation isn't a thing anymore, that's just limited dimensional manipulation at best.
How is the Demonic Crucible being able to close portals considered both power null and dimensional manipulation? That's just messing with portals.
How is him being able to have air movement equating to vector manipulation? That sounds like a massive reach there.
Why does Davoth deciding to wait for him automatically equate to him resisting all of Davoth's hax? That's also a massive reach there unless you got some explicit statements that mention that nothing Davoth had could remotely affect him.
Immortality negation for type 1 isn't a thing unless Doomguy is actively removing the ability for them to live forever, any normal person can kill a type 1 immortal being as all that immortality does is let you not die of old age.
A good chunk of the acausality type 4 text is repeating itself so you need to clean that up.
That's not Acausality Negation, affecting the demons with those abilities just means his abilities can affect acausal beings, if it was negation, he'd literally remove their status of being acausal in the first place.
Why is the fate and probability hax using the same reasoning as his type 4 Acausality? Is there anything that remotely proves that Doomguy's able to rewrite fate and possibilities to make it to where he always wins or is the "constant" text the only thing available? Because that's just acausality at best.
Are the spirits in Doom by default invisible to the naked eye? Without that text, I don't see why him seeing evil spirits grants him extrasensory perception.
I'm sorry but why is any of those stuff free movement? The walkthrough guy literally describes it as an invisible bridge and walking on water or blood doesn't tell me much when it's not elaborated to be deep.
So what part of Doomguy being able to absorb energy of those he kills have anything to do with reactive evolution and adaptation? This is just energy absorption and the quake stuff is just accelerated development stuff at best. None of this tells me he's adapting to the environment or is facing an ability he can't deal with, but then develops counters on the fly against it.
Some of the scans for the resistances are from another wiki, you should upload them to this wiki.
Where's the icon of sin's law hax stuff? I see reality warping for the resistances but no law hax.
You double posted the same scans for disease resistance, just leave it as one.
Did you mess up with the resistance of the blur artifact and Cacodemons? Because you labeled it as extrasensory perception and clairvoyance resistance instead of perception manipulation.
Still not seeing Reactive Evolution and Adaptation for defeating a titan, that's just accelerated development.
The invulnerability for the praetor suit isn't invulnerable, the scan even says "The suit was extracted from the rock, cleaned, and subjected to numerous tolerance tests, and found to be almost impervious to any damage" which implies it's just really strong and durable, not that it's literally incapable of being damaged by conventional strikes.
Is the dimensional travel and time travel stuff ever elaborated upon? Because knowing how Hell works that sounds more like he warped through different realms thanks to hell more than him actively doing it himself.
Higher dimensional manipulation isn't a thing anymore, that's just limited dimensional manipulation at best.
How is the Demonic Crucible being able to close portals considered both power null and dimensional manipulation? That's just messing with portals.
How is him being able to have air movement equating to vector manipulation? That sounds like a massive reach there.
Why does Davoth deciding to wait for him automatically equate to him resisting all of Davoth's hax? That's also a massive reach there unless you got some explicit statements that mention that nothing Davoth had could remotely affect him.
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I would ask that you split off each of the main topics into their own thread:
Cosmology
New Powers and Abilities (I didn't even realize that there were new ones added in your proposal)
Essence
Cosmology
New Powers and Abilities (I didn't even realize that there were new ones added in your proposal)
Essence
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I suppose that's fine.
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