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@DarkDragonMedeus @Planck69 @Theglassman12
This thread has been updated for only the Essence and Cosmology proposal.
This thread has been updated for only the Essence and Cosmology proposal.
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The Only Thing They Fear Is... You - DOOM Revisions (Part 1)
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At this point, Low 1-A has not been agreed yet?
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6-D stuff looks fine for cosmology stuff, but still unsure about Low 1-A.
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Yeah
Georredannea15
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Georredannea15
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As we speak, it's a good idea to take it to Ultima's thread for Tier 1 and Low 1-A stuff, but that can lock up for a while because he looks at everything in order...
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This isn't true. Low 1-A threads dont get put in queue.
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I agree with Essence and 6D, but Low 1-A seems a bit too vague. "Low 1-C, possibly Low 1-A" is fine however.
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will essence hax have layers?
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damn, doomguy going places now (if your crts are accepted that is)
Georredannea15
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No, Low 1-A issues also are usually evaluated here. Please don't teach me what I know
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No they're not. Low 1-A threads dont get put into queues. You're just wrong.
Georredannea15
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Yes, they are.
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have fun being confidently wrong
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I’m not following how the Essence equates to reality warping and space time hax, is both of these abilities given just because of “the soul of the universe” line? Because barely of that remotely talks about souls rewriting space time and reality on their own.
ShionAH
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- “Wraith Energy, which is the essence of the Elemental Wraiths, was once used to manipulate space itself. Cementing the idea of essence being something that governs reality.”
It is also shown to us that Urdak, Hell and basically the entire cosmology is fundamentally essence, it governs all of reality, space and time. To top it off it also governs stuff that are beyond space-time
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That text just says it powered a device, not that its essence warped space itself, plus none of that remotely mentioned warping reality. Also the entire cosmology being Essence doesn’t equate to literally every single demon having the same properties when Hell is supposed to be a sentient realm and Cacodemons among others don’t share the exact same thing that Hell itself does.
ShionAH
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“The fortress manipulates space through an unknown process involving Sentinel energy.“
It was manipulating space, the essence itself was being used to do it.
This is only supporting that shows Essence LITERALLY governs space. Like it is very straight forward.
Being able to manipulate Essence means you can manipulate reality, because Essence is literally fundmanetally reality itself and governs everything
This is just…nothing? What lol
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So yeah this just raises more questions than answers because it’s not even just wraith essence doing it, it’s some random process that they have to do with essence.
Your only explanation for manipulating reality is because Hell has Essence. That’s not the same as a random demon, unless you got evidence that normal Demon’s essence can just rewrite reality on their own.
ShionAH
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They are using the essence to manipulate space, because essence governs space. It is really really straight forward.
Uhh say that again pal
“Reality Warping (Passive. The demons with their presence bring their reality with them, "hellifying" the environment. This can lead to many destructive events, all of which benefit them on conquering worlds. Whether that be creating Hellgrowths or infecting the atmosphere, making it poisonous“
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Going through the cosmology;
Yeah, at least based on the scans given in the OP, I'm going to have to disagree with the tiering upgrade. Neutral to the Essence section as I've not had time to go over it.
@Firestorm808 @DarkDragonMedeus @Theglassman12 Thoughts?
This is very clearly just referring to the afterlife, based on the surrounding context. So "beyond" here isn't really any indicator of superiority.
This isn't loading for me, so I hope you can provide a different link. And being unreachable is like, good support but not cast-iron proof in and of itself.
The higher dimension part is probably the only thing here that might be relevant to tiering. Or it would be if it had elaboration beyond that. The other scan just has a mention of "transcendent" technology, which isn't tierable at all.
True.
This once again, isn't an indicator of being higher-dimensional in and of itself.
This would be fine, if the very next part of the paragraph didn't elaborate that this was in regards to their military and scientific development as a civilization, rather than literal physical transcendence over space and time.
This is a bog-standard "transcends space-time/the concept of space-time" in that the statement in itself isn't automatically tierable.
This seems to just be using dimensional in the sense of alternate dimensions, which happens several times in this codex, and would be quite a massive reach otherwise given no comparison to Hell is given in this scan. He is simply called mono-dimensional, like the speaker himself and everyone else referred to here.
It is entirely possible for something or some place to be beyond "comprehension" while being of the same dimensionality as the common setting. This being in reference to people with understanding of space-time would not change that.
The fact that just mentioning these words doesn't make them refer to spatial dimensions (especially here, where "dimension" in the sense of alternate realities is used liberally), these demons are pretty clearly not higher-dimensional.
See above.
Yeah, at least based on the scans given in the OP, I'm going to have to disagree with the tiering upgrade. Neutral to the Essence section as I've not had time to go over it.
@Firestorm808 @DarkDragonMedeus @Theglassman12 Thoughts?
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It's not really a "bog-standard" statement. With how the statement is worded it's more concise than a vague "transcends space and time". In what I see it as, it's referring to dimensions as a "boundary" or "limit" and hell is "unlimited" by such boundaries referring to a clear superiority in nature. Ultima off site interprets it as just means Hell is infinite in size (which I personally disagree with that interpretation). So it's not just a very vague untierable statement. If low 1-A isn't accepted in the end then it should still at least be 5-D as Hell would be infinite in size/unlimited compared to boundaries of the multiverse (which is an infinite multiverse).
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ShionAH
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Question, how can you say Hell ia 4D when it was clearly stated to be bigger, superior to Urdak which is a higher dimension compared to the Human World?
How can Hell even be 4D in this context, it makes no sense. And to top it all of its stated to be unlimited by boundaries of dimensionality
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Because the "bigger and superior" in this specific instance don't refer to or have any implication of proper higher-dimensionality, as I elaborated in the post proper. Both the above can be true at a similar dimensionality to the multiverse and Urdak, especially considering this is me giving that statement the benefit of the doubt, considering how much that term is commonly used for alternate realities rather than spatial axes in DOOM.
This ties into the above issue I just mentioned. The term itself isn't properly confirmed to mean spatial dimensions and without that, it becomes a lot less concrete. Never mind how it could very easily also just be referring to how Hell isn't limited to any given reality across the multiverse whatsoever. It'd be easier to confirm the specific meaning if we had any other statements beyond this one and at least as far as the OP goes, we do not.
ShionAH
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Urdak is stated to be a higher dimension that cannot be accessed by lower dimensions.
How is this in any way not HDE at all, this is a 4D place to you? What more does the game need to do, does it need to specifically say that “This Urdak is Tier 1 in VS Battles”
It is something special to Hell, which is why “It means Hell is Infinite” is wrong
It cannot mean universes because the universes dont really have “limits” it doesnt make sense to say that
It is completely transcending time-space and dimensions, this leaves us with either its higher dimensional or something bigger or just somehow means universes
I think its enough to even consider this a possibility. Hell is also stated to be formless and ultimate which sometimes help with supporting Tier 1 like that
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The game needs an actual elaboration that said dimension refers to a spatiotemporal axis. In case you're unaware, taking the statement at face value wouldn't even support Tier 1 either, given its a place and not a direction of movement or axis like a proper higher dimension. Inaccessibility works as support when you have some solid proof to start with, or at least solid supporting context.
I do not know why you seem to assume I'm going with Ultima's interpretation of that statement i.e. it meaning Hell is infinite, I'm not. What I am saying is that the statement isn't sufficient to offer a blanket tiering for Hell whatsoever, given the fact that the other interpretation I mentioned ("dimensions" being alternate realities and Hell being unbound by any one of them) can also be taken.
It being formless and ultimate might help but that's most confirmation of it being aspatiotemporal in nature. Or at least, not being bound to the same space and time as the multiverse.
I do not know why you seem to assume I'm going with Ultima's interpretation of that statement i.e. it meaning Hell is infinite, I'm not. What I am saying is that the statement isn't sufficient to offer a blanket tiering for Hell whatsoever, given the fact that the other interpretation I mentioned ("dimensions" being alternate realities and Hell being unbound by any one of them) can also be taken.
It being formless and ultimate might help but that's most confirmation of it being aspatiotemporal in nature. Or at least, not being bound to the same space and time as the multiverse.
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I can understand where your coming from but to me "space, time, or dimension" seems like a clear reference to spatio-temporal dimensions considering it's using space and time in same context as dimension (and dimensions are just space and time). If low 1-A is off the table. I'm not going for Hell being an extra dimension of movement but rather tier 1 through a higher infinite via being infinitely larger than infinite multiverse.
Would Hell being able to swallow up and fit the entire multiverse into itself help with any low 1-C rating with the "unlimited" statement?
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@ShionAH You mean the essence used to power a device that can mess with space? Again not really seeing this as a legit argument for warping reality and space time.
Your first link is dead and the third one leads to a blank page, did you pay attention to what you posted? Also nothing about the hellgrowth is stated to be as a result of Essence so yeah not really helping your case.
In regards to the actual tiering, I share the same sentiment as Planck.
Your first link is dead and the third one leads to a blank page, did you pay attention to what you posted? Also nothing about the hellgrowth is stated to be as a result of Essence so yeah not really helping your case.
In regards to the actual tiering, I share the same sentiment as Planck.
ShionAH
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No the device manipulating the essence to mess with space, that is what is said on the quote. They were not using it as an energy source, otherwise the rest of the quote wouldnt make sense.
It is literally ON EVERY SINGLE DEMON PROFILE OF THE VERSE.
This is ALREADY ACCEPTED ON THE WIKI.
You asked for the proof of Weakest Demons being able to Reality Warp, I showed that they can passively Reality Warp. I think you can put the two and two together
Its incredible how you can ask such specific proof yet even when I give it to you, you deny...
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i disagree
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@ShionAH Do you not know how to read my comments? Because I literally said your links are either dead or giving me a blank page that says nothing. Also I asked you to bring proof that normal demons warp reality and space time through their essence.
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Here is the website and exact section he's trying to link, he put in a incorrect URL when adding it to the profile.
ShionAH
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Codex/Story of Earth
Nearly 60% of the planet has been consumed by the demons, with the rate of expansion increasing each day. The majority of the world population died in the first month of the Hell invasion, following the catastrophic failure of virtually every man-made system. Military response was immediate but...
doom.fandom.com
Take your damn link, thanks @Deceived3596 for that.
Oh no no, so you ask me to specifically give you proof that even the weakest demons can warp reality and when I give it to you, you start asking for something EVEN MORE specific?
Demons passively warp Reality, Icon of Sin passively warps Reality, Reality itself is governed by Essence and entire Space-Time structures like Urdak and Hell, Fortress manipulates Essence to warp Space
Which is why affecting Essence would give these haxes.
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Chill outCodex/Story of Earth
Nearly 60% of the planet has been consumed by the demons, with the rate of expansion increasing each day. The majority of the world population died in the first month of the Hell invasion, following the catastrophic failure of virtually every man-made system. Military response was immediate but...
Take your damn link, thanks @Deceived3596 for that.
Oh no no, so you ask me to specifically give you proof that demons can warp reality and when I give it to you, you start asking for something EVEN MORE specific?
Demons passively warp Reality, Icon of Sin passively warps Reality, Reality itself is governed by Essence and entire Space-Time structures like Urdak and Hell, Fortress manipulates Essence to warp Space
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Planck makes a lot of good points tbh. I can still see Essense hax having some good merit though, but I basically disagree with Low 1-A stuff now. Still neutral about 6-D upgrades though; which would be baseline 6-D
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