When They Cry Revisions

[Antvasima]

Thanks again for all of your help. Your English is fine.

I have asked Promestein if she is interested in helping out with revising the profile pages.

 

[Promestein]

I'm happy to help.

I don't have much to say about these scans themselves. They're good, helpful scans.

 

[Game_Master_Battler]

Okay, I turn to the main thing regarding hierarchies.

 

[Sera_EX]

Okay, I turn to the main thing regarding hierarchies.

Do you think explaining on how inaccessible realms like the peak of all things not even equating to a single layer are neccesary for this discussion?

Yes.

 

[DarkLK]

Well, maybe I will consider it later. Unfortunately, I don't have much time now, so I focused on the fundamental things about different hierarchies and qualitative difference between them. Considering the conceptual structure of a single layer is more relevant to piece versions of characters.

 

[DarkLK]

Although, if we do not go into further details right now, here we have realms beyond all time, space/place and coordinates/dimensions.

 

[FateAlbane]

As I agree with everything there I'll just go ahead and add up the other scans in regards to Gaap's gap between worlds or as the story put it - "the underside of the chessboard" or "the location where the captured pieces end up". This confirms that places such as this one ammount to no more than being part of a single gameboard.

 

[FateAlbane]

Also of note is that in the first time he got there, just "stepping" in the Sea of Fragments when Bernkastel brought him there was enough to almost make Battler lose his sense of purpose, until he got accustomed to the location (and instructed by Lambda) during Episode 5.

 

[Game_Master_Battler]

As I agree with everything there I'll just go ahead and add up the other scans in regards to Gaap's gap between worlds or as the story put it - "the underside of the chessboard" or "the location where the captured pieces end up". This confirms that places such as this one ammount to no more than being part of a single gameboard.

If im understanding correctly. These scans here aswell as darks represent the insurmpuntable size of a single layer? Or am i missing something

 

[FateAlbane]

DLK's scans show complex locations beyond notions of space-time and such.

Mine shows another of those, coupled with proof that said location ammounts to a fraction of a layer in the gameboard (the underside of the chessboard is consistently portrayed as being the place where "captured pieces" end up in. Easiest way to explain is that it's an all-encompassing extension of the same layer, so to speak.).

Case in point, pieces on the Underside are still seen as pieces that can be moved or taken by anyone on a higher layer or location and the underside is still seen as no more than a part of the board, as seen when Gaap brings the captured pieces back to the Cathedral/Court during Episode 5.

 

[Game_Master_Battler]

Crazy

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. I think that Umineko is likely the strongest series featured in this wiki.

Anyway, we also need to revise the explanations in the Umineko no Naku Koro ni verse page, and preferably get a new explanation blog or explanation page for the franchise.

 

[DarkLK]

Hey hey hey hey, I didn't say that. I never say such things, at least because I'm not an expert in many franchises. And I do not advise anyone else to say such things.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Yes. I think that Umineko is likely the strongest series featured in this wiki.

Those are strong words lol

 

[FateAlbane]

Not really, there's always this one.

I'll see myself out.

 

[Antvasima]

@DarkLK

Okay. Sorry about that.

 

[Sera_EX]

This exists after all.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, it would be very good if some experienced members start to organise a revision based on the above information.

 

[Sera_EX]

We're not done yet. What's been posted (most of it) has already been common knowledge by now.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[GalaxianAegis]

Ant has the right idea though. A new explanation blog with all of this new information will be necessary.

Once all the information is here, we can interpret how it affects the pages anyways.

 

[Antvasima]

An explanation page might be better, as it is possible to edit for several knowledgeable members collaborating.

 

[Game_Master_Battler]

CM and umi seem neck and neck as of right now

 

[FateAlbane]

CM and umi seem neck and neck as of right now

Of this much I have my doubts. CM is ludicrously big in the 1-A matter beyond reason. But as I'm no owner of truth we'll have to wait and see until all relevant info is around to make heads or tails here.

Regardless, the subject of "stronger or weaker than one verse or another" should be dropped until after this thread is fully resolved as the purpose here is exactly to elaborate on the verse's exact standing in power when all is said and done.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree that we should focus on the revision itself.

 

[Ovy7]

I'm wondering what are the things that are considered less of a common knowledge when it comes to the cosmology?

 

[Sera_EX]

1-A everybody is the big controversial topic.

 

[DarkLK]

I'm wondering what are the things that are considered less of a common knowledge when it comes to the cosmology?

The part about different hierarchies, especially about the fact that the human domain is also a hierarchy. The internal complexity of the individual layers/boards/worlds/stories (but I have not finished with this).

 

[FateAlbane]

This may be just me or others may share this opinion.

I feel like the Human Domain is currently the most obscure part as many works in the series hardly delve in it at all: I may be not remembering it right but I for one remember next to nothing being said about its hierarchy in Umineko or Ougon Musou.

Thus, for me the current question going through my head is:

Everyone knows the domain of witches transcends it. How big is the Human Domain to begin with, though?

Like, where does it cap? And thus what tier would be standing at the apex of the human domain?

 

[Ovy7]

Aren't the Meta-World version of the humans at the top of the Human Domain? I'm talking about the likes of pre-sorcerer Battler and the Ushiromiya family of Ep. 8.

Edit: But yeah, there's still the question of how big the Human Domain is.

This revision is also very informative btw, especially for someone who loves the series.

 

[Game_Master_Battler]

Ill need darklk to confirm this (i dont have scans for this sadly so its just a regular comment) but @FateAlbane iirc the absolute peak of the human domain is the inaccesible hierarchal ladder of concepts or maybe technically it isnt part of the human domain. But anyways

Iirc there are like 7 layers each layer grants you more power and knowledge of the universe, as you go higher things start to get a little crazy as you reach unimaginable things and impossible places. A mind break for any mind no matter how intelligent Then finally a wall of absolute inscrutability which is the door/fence to the very bottom of the domain of witches.

Whats funny is dark had mentioned these inaccesible "realms" or ladders arent even the size of a single layer. If he can prove this then that means each layer is ludicrously massive. Similar to nyars 3 gates but a infinite amount

 

[FateAlbane]

These inacessible realms were in the domain of witches already.

And as pointed above there aren't multiple ladders. It's all a part of the same one, all the way from Human lvl to the Creator's Domain.

We actually need evidence/scans that the Human Domain already encompasses these ridiculously abstract things. My question here arising from the fact that the works I'm currently familiar with do NOT adress that at all (or adress it very little). So it's part of the more obscure matters that would need evidence to go on with the reasoning here.

 

[FateAlbane]

Hence why I mentioned above it's likely stuff from Trianthology or Higanbana that we will need to wait for. Umineko, Ougon Musou Kyoku Cross and others don't provide *that* much in-depth info for the human domain (which is understandable as they focus much more on the domain of witches and above).

 

[DarkLK]

I have already said about different hierarchies and why there is an overwhelming difference in complexity between domains (the impossibility of any description of a higher domain with lower words due to the limited mind, despite the presence of such concepts as higher dimensions, etc.).

Above, I have already presented the only Japanese scan where it is said about different hierarchies of existence, with reference to the human world and higher domain where Willard is. This part is probably the only one in Umineko, where it is directly stated. In addition, there were already mentioned the worlds of various human fictions, although it was not said that they belonged to different layers. Therefore, for further clarification, I used Trianthology. In general, the internal structure of the human domain is better examined in those works where Ryuukishi07 worked with Tanaka Romeo and Tonokawa Yuuto. That is, it is Trianthology and Rewrite. Although there is also Higanbana where some aspects of the supernatural world of the lower domain are considered in more detail. But it is more like cosmetic touches.

I hope that I should not explain that the individual world is seen as a game board, where white cells are the objective reality of the human world, and black cells are a supernatural plan, with imaginary possibilities in an undefined wave function. Gaap's dark world is the reverse side of the board. It is also said that it is between two worlds (real and supernatural). This realm exists for stories about murders in the human world. It has its own version in each kakera/board. The layers themselves are different as reality and fiction. From the internal point of view, the same concepts are used there and the manifestations of the characters have the same abilities (if we are talking about layers of the same domain), just hierarchically one world will be above the other.

We actually need evidence/scans that the Human Domain already encompasses these ridiculously abstract things.

That is, scans to support this chart are exactly what is expected from me, right?

 

[FateAlbane]

We actually need evidence/scans that the Human Domain already encompasses these ridiculously abstract things.

That is, scans to support this chart are exactly what is expected from me, right?

Yes, so far it's all good on all the other matters for me. Scans to support the chart are the ones I said that would be very useful at this point. o/ Thanks in advance! ^_^

 

[DarkLK]

No problem, I will try to do it in the coming days (and after that I will probably leave these thread for an indefinite time because this is not my revision and you guys themselves will interpret the information and edit the pages). Moreover, part of the scans about this thing has already been used.

And now, just in case, I'll show you a couple of my old posts. This does not concern the current topic directly, but the information may deserve attention.

That's what happens when there are no Umineko gameboard rules.

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- ÒüéÒéëÒüéÒéëÒÇüµÇûÒüäµÇûÒüäÒÇéÒüäÒéëÒüúÒüùÒéâÒüäÒü¬ÒÇüÒüèÕàäÒüòÒéôÒÇé


- ÚØÆÕ¡ùÒüºÕ«úÞ¿ÇÒüÖÒéïÒü£´╝ü´╝ü "ÕªûµÇ¬Òü¬ÒéôÒüªÕ¡ÿÕ£¿ÒüùÒü¬Òüä´╝üÕà¿ÒüªÒü»õ║║ÚûôÒüïÕüÂþäÂÒÇüÒüéÒéïÒüäÒü»Þ¬ñÞºúÒüïÒéëþöƒÒü¥ÒéîÒüƒõ║ïÞ▒íÒüºÒÇüÒüØÒéîÒéÆÕªûµÇ¬Òü«õ╗òµÑ¡Òü¿Õæ╝þº░ÒüùÒüªÒüäÒéïÒü½ÚüÄÒüÄÒü¬Òüä´╝ü"


- ÒüôÒéîÒüºÒâêÒâëÒâíÒüáÒÇüÕ¢╝Õ▓©Þè▒´╝ü´╝üÕ¥®Õö▒ÒüºÒüìÒéïÒééÒéôÒü¬ÒéëÒüùÒüªÒü┐ÒéäÒüîÒéîÒââ´╝üÕ¥®Õö▒Þªüµ▒é´╝ü´╝ü "ÕªûµÇ¬Òü»þó║ÒüïÒü½Õ¡ÿÕ£¿ÒüÖÒéï"Òââ´╝ü´╝ü´╝üÒüôÒéîÒüºÒâüÒéºÒââÒé»ÒâíÒéñÒâêÒüáÒüüÒüéÒüéÒüéÒüüÒüéÒüéÒüéÒüéÒüé´╝ü´╝ü


- ÕªûµÇ¬Òü»Õ¡ÿÕ£¿ÒüÖÒéïÒéÅÒéêÒÇéÒüáÒüúÒüªÒüôÒüôÒÇüÒüØÒâ╝ÒéåÒüåõ©ûþòîÒüÿÒéâÒü¬ÒüäÒÇé

Avatars, pieces and manifestations is a quite a vague thing. There is also a philosophy that people behave differently in different life situations, they play different roles, wear different "masks". With witches the same, but even more difficult. In the end, any incarnations can be viewed simply as the different roles of some fundamental entity.


"My first question was why Ryukishi07 used witches as the main antagonists of Umineko. Ryukishi then replied by say that, when compared to humans, witches live for a very long time. This means that when compared to mortals, who generally act on the straight and narrow to try and live a good and productive life, immortal witches have all the time in the world and can sometimes grow bored of life and try cruel and evil things for the sake of experiencing something new. He would then go on to compared a witch's existence to playing the game Skyrim for a second time. While the first time you may try and complete the main quest and be the best hero you can be, the second time through you might decide to be an evil perso for the sake of experiencing the game in a different way."

"Further questioning included such topics such as the connection between the characters of Erika Furudo and Bernkastel from Umineko and Rika from Higurashi. Ryukishi sees his characters as actors and compared using the above characters in Umineko as being similar to Harrison Ford playing both Han Solo and Indiana Jones, in that the person behind the role is the same, bu the character they are playing in each movie, or in this case game, is very different. He would then go on to mention that Higurashi and Umineko take place in worlds that are very distant from each from each other, yet still connected."

This applies even to Fetherine herself. Both Fetherine and Hachijo are roles and this is not her real form.

Erika is an avatar of Bern, but they both can exist within the same layer and even be remotely comparable in power. Although we must understand that this Bern is only her manifestation.

Own lower versions are also avatars. For a higher incarnation, they are just like characters in a fictional work. Usually I use the term avatar in this sense.

Featherine is above the city of books that have been in the umineko story. The same applies to the Voyagers.

 

[Game_Master_Battler]

The fact that the featherine we see and know is just a avatar....is hilarious

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I think that her true self exists just below the realm of The Creator.

 

[Game_Master_Battler]

These inacessible realms were in the domain of witches already.

And as pointed above there aren't multiple ladders. It's all a part of the same one, all the way from Human lvl to the Creator's Domain.

We actually need evidence/scans that the Human Domain already encompasses these ridiculously abstract things. My question here arising from the fact that the works I'm currently familiar with do NOT adress that at all (or adress it very little). So it's part of the more obscure matters that would need evidence to go on with the reasoning here.

I wasnt referring to the infinite hierarchy if thats what you were reffering to. Im referring to the hierarchy of concepts.

As i was told. One single layer is inaccesibly greater than the one before it due to each layer having a said "hierarchy" where you have to evolve or you cannot reach the next layer

And we already know there is a infinite amount of these layers

But dark said that he will get to the "size of a single layer" some other time.

 

[DarkLK]

The fact that the featherine we see and know is just a avatar....is hilarious

I also recall the letter of Bern to Featherine before she appeared in story. Bern did not call her by name.

There is also another interesting point.

If you did read until here, you must be laughing. Eeh, you can bet. Very soon you'll want to sneer at me even more after seeing my troubled face. Before long, I'll go to pay you a visit. The get-well gift will be me. You can sneer at me as much as you want. You like it, right? To do that. So, so that I can meet a friend I haven't seen for so long, please, revive.

From Bernkastel, your friend who still believes to be dear to you.

Now remember the actual meeting of Bern and Featherine in story. It was a surprise, scare and shock for Bern, who allegedly accidentally wandered into her studio.

That is, Bern who wrote the letter and Bern who actually was in story were different manifestations of Bern. Bern from story clearly did not know the whole truth. This is a limitation of lower manifestation. This is the same as the incarnation of Beatrice from the fifth episode (although she had an incarnation in the higher domain) did not even know anything about Yasu.