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Versus Thread Removal Requests (New forum)

DaReaperMan said:
shouldn't his movement speed and the speed of his bullets be on the profile?
Click to expand...
His current speed is based on dodging meteors. He is moving approximately that fast. Technically I believe the calculation for this was of the NF variety, so the only sin of the profile is not listing the calc's new home.
 
Mr._Bambu said:
His current speed is based on dodging meteors. He is moving approximately that fast. Technically I believe the calculation for this was of the NF variety, so the only sin of the profile is not listing the calc's new home.
Click to expand...
That is his combat speed, not his running speed, and the profile does list the calc's new home, the feat was moved to a blog on the wiki years ago
 
Mr._Bambu said:
Reaper. My man. Christ.

The Hunter does not have a movement speed on his profile. Combat speed traditionally covers actual movement in-combat. It is the default speed listed on a profile. Furthermore, he does not need to clear the distance.

Reaper. I cannot make you run a bloodtinge build, but I can remind you that it is an actual way to play. A way I have played. As have many others. It's really quite good, especially against bosses like Amygdala who are a piece of shit for melee. You have no ******* clue what the Hunter goes in-character, because they don't have a character. It is an RPG character. Their personality is that of the player. That is the facts here, I don't know how you aren't aware of that.

I don't care what you think it's like. Make a relevant argument or leave it to people who will bother to give due diligence.Movement in-combat is generally how fast you're grooving mate, this means dodging, rolling, that kind of thing. Not how fast you can run.
Click to expand...
Mr._Bambu said:
His current speed is based on dodging meteors. He is moving approximately that fast. Technically I believe the calculation for this was of the NF variety, so the only sin of the profile is not listing the calc's new home.
Click to expand...
Combat speed is how fast you can groove, like dodge-rolling, not move like running.

ah yes, the build which borderline isn't possible in this key unless you very specifically set up the fight to have him running the exact gun and exact build possible. In case you forgot he doesn't have 90% of his good equipment as it's early-game hunter. Seeing as most of his builds are melee oriented and he's assumed to just have the baseline load out of axe/pistol from my knowledge from his matches your gonna have time give him that specific build AND make sure that all the shit you're giving him is actually available early-game.

Maybe get a hold of what the Hunter actually has in his keys before you start preaching Bambu, it's in his standard equipment section, it's glorious!
 
Wait, so one character has a higher type of immortality then the other was well as Immortality Negation and Acausality..
Going off the profiles, isn't the Hunter winning that?
 
TheMonkeMan said:
Wait, so one character has a higher type of immortality then the other was well as Immortality Negation and Acausality..
Going off the profiles, isn't the Hunter winning that?
Click to expand...
Nope, was discussed in the thread as well as the previous one, Finger of Death is layered death hax capable of outright bypassing the Hunter's Type 8, and stuff like Eyebite can KO him which would also bypass the Type 8 as it only works on death or activation of the Hunter's Mark
 
Also, just saying again, the hunter doesn't have guns faster then his combat speed, so the Drinker, with it's massive reaction speed advantage, can dodge them dummy ez
 
DaReaperMan said:
Combat speed is how fast you can groove, like dodge-rolling, not move like running.

ah yes, the build which borderline isn't possible in this key unless you very specifically set up the fight to have him running the exact gun and exact build possible. In case you forgot he doesn't have 90% of his good equipment as it's early-game hunter. Seeing as most of his builds are melee oriented and he's assumed to just have the baseline load out of axe/pistol from my knowledge from his matches your gonna have time give him that specific build AND make sure that all the shit you're giving him is actually available early-game.

Maybe get a hold of what the Hunter actually has in his keys before you start preaching Bambu, it's in his standard equipment section, it's glorious!
Click to expand...
Reaper, a stomp match is when one character has no reasonable chance of victory. This basically means that the match is considered to be a stomp when one character (in this case, the Hunter) has to jump through so many hoops that it is basically impossible for them to reasonably win.

A low chance of victory, therefore, is not coterminous with a stomp match. All stomp matches include a low chance of victory, not all matches in which a character has a low chance of victory are automatically a stomp match.

What we basically assume for the victory conditions for this match is that the Hunter is one of the builds in this game that is capable of abusing range, and does so. These are the only practical conditions the Hunter has to fulfill to beat the Vitreous Drinker. This includes two builds, one spoken about at length- Arcane, and Bloodtinge, both of which can outrange the Vitreous Drinker's 20 yard range and have ample reason to do so.

As I said, I can appreciate that you, specifically, do not like to play Bloodborne with these builds. However, it is foolishness to assume nobody does. It is foolishness to ascribe any objective playstyle to a character that is, in effect, just your avatar. You have to accept this. It is completely factual. It is irrelevant to determining a stomp thread whether you, Reaper, prefer playing Bloodborne as a melee build, and personally believe most people don't play ranged. In fact, even if it were factual that even just 1% of players played range over melee (or even less), totally irrelevant. We're talking about an RPG character. It can take whatever build it wants.

Furthermore, since you seem to take pride in pissing out your beliefs: All of the Hunter's weapons are listed as Standard Equipment. This is gear they take with them into every single match. You, Reaper, could have known this by... looking at the page's standard equipment section. You, as a member of this community and a presumed player of Bloodborne, do yourself a disservice by arguing points repeatedly that are so easily proven wrong.
 
I'm gonna start removing the peanut gallery chatter, surely you people will have learned the rules by now?
 
Mr._Bambu said:
What we basically assume for the victory conditions for this match is that the Hunter is one of the builds in this game that is capable of abusing range, and does so. These are the only practical conditions the Hunter has to fulfill to beat the Vitreous Drinker. This includes two builds, one spoken about at length- Arcane, and Bloodtinge, both of which can outrange the Vitreous Drinker's 20 yard range and have ample reason to do so.
Click to expand...
The Hunter in this key has one gun with that range and has no arcane weapons, im really not sure where youre getting this from
Mr._Bambu said:
Furthermore, since you seem to take pride in pissing out your beliefs: All of the Hunter's weapons are listed as Standard Equipment. This is gear they take with them into every single match. You, Reaper, could have known this by... looking at the page's standard equipment section. You, as a member of this community and a presumed player of Bloodborne, do yourself a disservice by arguing points repeatedly that are so easily proven wrong.
Click to expand...
Bambu, the Hunter's weapons in their standard equipment section are literally separated by tabbers that designate keys
 
TheMonkeMan said:
Wait, so one character has a higher type of immortality then the other was well as Immortality Negation and Acausality..
Going off the profiles, isn't the Hunter winning that?
Click to expand...
I'm going to actually scream lmao y'all just aren't understanding

Yeah. That's what makes the match even remotely fair. Without negation, the Drinker could not kill it. Weekly's inventing the higher form of immortality, the Drinker can be killed easily. That's literally just an invention of Weekly's mind, ain't on the Drinker's page at all.
 
Mr._Bambu said:
I'm going to actually scream lmao y'all just aren't understanding

Yeah. That's what makes the match even remotely fair. Without negation, the Drinker could not kill it. Weekly's inventing the higher form of immortality, the Drinker can be killed easily. That's literally just an invention of Weekly's mind, ain't on the Drinker's page at all.
Click to expand...
Wha? I didnt bring that up at all what are you talking about
 
WeeklyBattles said:
The Hunter in this key has one gun with that range and has no arcane weapons, im really not sure where youre getting this from

Bambu, the Hunter's weapons in their standard equipment section are literally separated by tabbers that designate keys
Click to expand...
Early game. The longest shooting rifle in the game is accessible by it. We are not using the beginning of game key, as such a key does not exist. I pointed out this flaw of the profile in the thread, funnily enough, the thread people are claiming to have read.
 
Mr._Bambu said:
Early game. The longest shooting rifle in the game is accessible by it. We are not using the beginning of game key, as such a key does not exist. I pointed out this flaw of the profile in the thread, funnily enough, the thread people are claiming to have read.
Click to expand...
Flamesprayer, Hunter Blunderbuss, Hunter Pistol, Hunter's Torch, Ludwig's Rifle, and Repeating Pistol are the only ranged weapons he has access to in this key
 
WeeklyBattles said:
Wha? I didnt bring that up at all what are you talking about
Click to expand...
No? Because it still means the Hunter cant kill the Drinker due to its types 2 and 8 immoralities
Click to expand...
It doesn't have Type 8 Immortality, it was addressed earlier in the thread. At that point, you were working in the realm of fiction, and MonkeMan is currently working in the realm of fiction.

The Drinker has Type 1, 2, and 7. 1 and 7 offer no combat advantages. 2 offers him only resilience in the sense that he can lose an arm and remain alive fine without it- he can still, however, just be beaten to death. The Drinker has no immortality advantage.
 
WeeklyBattles said:
Flamesprayer, Hunter Blunderbuss, Hunter Pistol, Hunter's Torch, Ludwig's Rifle, and Repeating Pistol are the only ranged weapons he has access to in this key
Click to expand...
The Piercing Rifle isn't in the right bit, and you're fully aware of that, as you can access it right after Blood Starved Beast, putting it just after the Hunter's Torch in terms of availability. It has the longest range in the game.
 
Mr._Bambu said:
The Piercing Rifle isn't in the right bit, and you're fully aware of that, as you can access it right after Blood Starved Beast, putting it just after the Hunter's Torch in terms of availability. It has the longest range in the game.
Click to expand...
Huh? Are you thinking of a different weapon? The Piercing Rifle is a DLC weapon that you can only get after you beat Vicar Amelia, you get it off of one of the hunters in the Hunter's Nightmare. That puts it into the Mid-Game territory

www.bloodborne-wiki.com

Piercing Rifle

Piercing Rifle Bloodborne Wiki » Firearms » Piercing Rifle Source ❘ Edit ❘ Sitemap &Vertical...
www.bloodborne-wiki.com www.bloodborne-wiki.com
 
Mr._Bambu said:
Reaper, a stomp match is when one character has no reasonable chance of victory. This basically means that the match is considered to be a stomp when one character (in this case, the Hunter) has to jump through so many hoops that it is basically impossible for them to reasonably win.

A low chance of victory, therefore, is not coterminous with a stomp match. All stomp matches include a low chance of victory, not all matches in which a character has a low chance of victory are automatically a stomp match.

What we basically assume for the victory conditions for this match is that the Hunter is one of the builds in this game that is capable of abusing range, and does so. These are the only practical conditions the Hunter has to fulfill to beat the Vitreous Drinker. This includes two builds, one spoken about at length- Arcane, and Bloodtinge, both of which can outrange the Vitreous Drinker's 20 yard range and have ample reason to do so.

As I said, I can appreciate that you, specifically, do not like to play Bloodborne with these builds. However, it is foolishness to assume nobody does. It is foolishness to ascribe any objective playstyle to a character that is, in effect, just your avatar. You have to accept this. It is completely factual. It is irrelevant to determining a stomp thread whether you, Reaper, prefer playing Bloodborne as a melee build, and personally believe most people don't play ranged. In fact, even if it were factual that even just 1% of players played range over melee (or even less), totally irrelevant. We're talking about an RPG character. It can take whatever build it wants.

Furthermore, since you seem to take pride in pissing out your beliefs: All of the Hunter's weapons are listed as Standard Equipment. This is gear they take with them into every single match. You, Reaper, could have known this by... looking at the page's standard equipment section. You, as a member of this community and a presumed player of Bloodborne, do yourself a disservice by arguing points repeatedly that are so easily proven wrong.
Click to expand...
Guns have a limited times they can be used, a dude with a like 20x reactions advantage or some crazy shit like that is going to be able to dodge those things extremely easily. Especially since the hunter only has 20 shots give or take to beat them. You're arguing that the Drinker is so bad at dodging it won't be able to react and dodge something moving in a straight line from like 600 feet out if not more.

As for arcane... the Hunter has like 2 weapons in this key that use it and neither are really ranged.

So you're assuming the victory condition that's barely available, relies on the drinker being the worst dodger to ever exist, The Hunter managing to get a clear shot beyond 60 feet in Central Park of all places(T R E E S), all with 0 knowledge of the danger of going within 60 feet of the drinker, is possible within reason for the hunter to achieve. Definitely doesn't sound like a stomp, Bambu. Rule of a thousand shots doesn't apply to 20.
 
To follow up that, after looking at the Drinker's statblock again, not only is Dexterity the thing's best stat (The stat that focuses on agility ad dodging) but it also has a feat that literally gives it a bonus to dodging attacks, Lightning Reflexes.

So yeah, piling that onto the Drinker's 5x durability advantage, its Unholy Grace barrier/attack reflection, and its movement speed advantage, arguing that the Hunter can just snipe it with ranged attacks is just...no.
 
Reaper, this'll be the last post I'm making here regarding this, as I aim to actually sleep and it really ought to be left to those meant to evaluate such things, as previously mentioned.

Guns have enough uses to render their limited use moot, especially when mixed with the fact that the Hunter can effectively exchange small amounts of health for more (and heal said health with blood vials). The Drinker has about a 5x advantage in terms of reactions, not 20- and will be slower in terms of raw movement when taking Quickening into account. I would not refer to it as "easy"- though I agree it would be, if the reaction difference were as severe as you estimated it to be.

As for arcane... the Hunter has like 2 weapons in this key that use it and neither are really ranged.
Click to expand...

Perhaps. I was speaking broadly there, Arcane was never actually the argument (the thread never mentioned it), I figured I ought to explain the actual strat for all present, since it was being repeatedly misrepresented. That bit I'll take credit for, since it's my bad you were confused there, woulda been better to just not mention Arcane.

So, to summarize more factually: We assume that the Hunter will, at some point, use a bloodtinged build, and will occasionally hit the Drinker despite an admittedly generous reaction advantage (though certainly not enough to blitz or anything like that). The profile is the one that reports hundreds of meters range for his best range weapons, the best of which is the piercing rifle discussed above. So yeah. The Hunter has a decent enough shot. I urge you to re-read stuff, in the future.

To any staff member, as you can see it's been argued enough here. Too much, even. Do feel free to delete further chatter. I apologize for this shit.
 
TheMonkeMan said:
Link ain't working bud.
Click to expand...
pS6ewyIl.jpg
 
All right Bambu, so uh, reading that stat block... why in the good **** is the drinker gonna not dodge gunfire that's easy to dodge? The best stat I'm seeing there is the dodging stat! The hunter would have major difficulties hitting it up close, let alone from a couple hundred feet back. Remember, the further something is away the easier it is to dodge, so if something outright specializes in dodging, how would it not dodge something that far away?
 
Yare yare...
Mr._Bambu said:
Guns have enough uses to render their limited use moot, especially when mixed with the fact that the Hunter can effectively exchange small amounts of health for more (and heal said health with blood vials). The Drinker has about a 5x advantage in terms of reactions, not 20- and will be slower in terms of raw movement when taking Quickening into account. I would not refer to it as "easy"- though I agree it would be, if the reaction difference were as severe as you estimated it to be.
Click to expand...
The Hunter's guns are supersonic to supersonic+ at best, the Drinker's reactions are High Hypersonic. Trying to shoot it at anything less than point blank (as the Hunter does to opponents 99% of the time) is not going to connect. Doesnt help that the Drinker literally has a bonus to dodging attacks as well.

Again, Quickening does not amplify anything other than dodge speed, it does not amplify move speed, reaction speed or combat speed. Theres a reason why the Hunter's profile doesnt have a 'Higher with Quickening' in the speed section.
Mr._Bambu said:
So, to summarize more factually: We assume that the Hunter will, at some point, use a bloodtinged build, and will occasionally hit the Drinker despite an admittedly generous reaction advantage (though certainly not enough to blitz or anything like that).
Click to expand...
At some point
Click to expand...

My guy, the mountain of assumptions that you have to make to think the Hunter will survive to consider 'at some point' is enormous. Youre assuming the Hunter actually survives the initial encounter with the Drinker and the Drinker doesnt just Finger of Death or Eyebite him and win. Youre assuming that same scenario happens MULTIPLE times, to the point that the Hunter realizes he needs to stay away from the Drinker to be able to even attack it. Youre assuming the Drinker will just stand perfectly still, not dodge at all, and have its Unholy Grace deactivated for the Hunter to actually land a shot that can hurt it. Youre assuming that a Bloodtinge build alone buffs the Hunter's damage to the point of being able to oneshot the Drinker despite it being 5x more durable than his AP. Seriously, you yourself said that :

"the match is considered to be a stomp when one character (in this case, the Hunter) has to jump through so many hoops that it is basically impossible for them to reasonably win."

yet youre jumping through just as many hoops to argue a single scenario that is so statistically improbable that it is effectively guaranteed to never happen, it literally requires both characters to act severely out of character the entire time.
Mr._Bambu said:
The profile is the one that reports hundreds of meters range for his best range weapons, the best of which is the piercing rifle discussed above. So yeah. The Hunter has a decent enough shot. I urge you to re-read stuff, in the future.
Click to expand...
The Hunter does not have the Piercing Rifle. It is a DLC weapon. A mid-game weapon. He does not have it in the early game.

www.bloodborne-wiki.com

Piercing Rifle

Piercing Rifle Bloodborne Wiki » Firearms » Piercing Rifle Source ❘ Edit ❘ Sitemap &Vertical...
www.bloodborne-wiki.com www.bloodborne-wiki.com
 
ExSENNA said:
Please Remove

SCP-049 vs Davy Jones - Reason This is an extremely old, outdated matchup from 2017, 9-B vs 9-C, 049's main ability does not work on Jones per matchup, and Jones just oneshots him. Stomp

SCP-049 vs Connor Reason This is an extremely one sided matchup, Once again 049's main ability does not work and Connor both outranges and severely outskills 049. Sure they're both 9-C but you wouldn't be able to beat someone more skilled than you even if you are close in strength

Both of these matches are extremely one sided if not outright stomp

Profiles

SCP-049

Connor

Davy Jones
Click to expand...
Bumping this

Also Please Remove

Ghiaccio vs Caster - Reason this is an outdated matchup from 2019. Caster is now 6-C, Ghiaccio can't do anything to her. Stomp. The original matchup was also very stompish as well
 
ExSENNA said:
Please Remove

SCP-049 vs Davy Jones - Reason This is an extremely old, outdated matchup from 2017, 9-B vs 9-C, 049's main ability does not work on Jones per matchup, and Jones just oneshots him. Stomp

SCP-049 vs Connor Reason This is an extremely one sided matchup, Once again 049's main ability does not work and Connor both outranges and severely outskills 049. Sure they're both 9-C but you wouldn't be able to beat someone more skilled than you even if you are close in strength

Both of these matches are extremely one sided if not outright stomp

Profiles

SCP-049

Connor

Davy Jones

Also Please Remove

Ghiaccio vs Caster - Reason this is an outdated matchup from 2019. Caster is now 6-C, Ghiaccio can't do anything to her. Stomp. The original matchup was also very stompish as well
Click to expand...
Bumping these
 
WeeklyBattles said:

So to summarize this thread:

*AP: 5x difference plus the Drinker having passive damage reduction, attack reflection/a forcefield, and type 2 immortality

*Speed: Equalized but due to the rules of Speed Equalization, the hunter and drinker have equalized combat and reaction speed, but not movement speed, meaning the Hunter would have Normal Human to Athletic Human movement speed while the Drinker would have Supersonic+ to Hypersonic movement speed.

With those out of the way:

*Due to standard battle assumptions the hunter and drinker start at their furthest range apart from each other, which would be 100 meters. Also thanks to standard battle assumptions the Drinker would know what the hunter looks like and the direction he is in, and how far away he is. The Hunter has no ESP or other means of tracking down the Drinker beyond general knowledge, while the Drinker has two dozen ravens at its disposal that it sees and hears everything through, as well as spells such as Arcane Eye (Which grants remote ESP over a wide area) and Detect Thoughts (Lets the Drinker hear the thoughts of everything in a 60 foot radius), meaning the Drinker will effectively have constant tabs on the Hunter the entire fight. On top of this, the Drinker has the spell Dimension Door which would allow it to just teleport to the Hunter directly by thought (it only requires a simple visual or a direction and distance to teleport, all of which it has by default as per SBA).

*The Hunter range spamming would do nothing in this fight other than give away his position, due the Drinker has a passive forcefield that the hunter's firearms cannot bypass (which was agreed on in the thread), the Hunter has a limited amount of ammunition available (Specifically 20 maximum before needing to pull from his own vitality to create more bullets), and due to the location (Central Park by SBA) the Hunter is unlikely to ever have a clear shot with that much range. Leading with something like Blue Elixir or trying to stealth wouldnt work either, both due to Blue Elixir not making the Hunter fully invisible, only transparent but still fully visible to enemies who actively know what he looks like and are actively looking for him, as well as the Drinker's multiple forms of ESP, its massive passive bonus to spotting hidden enemies (A +19 to Spot, which in game terms makes their senses good enough to detect outright invisible enemies), and Gaze working on invisible opponents. With the speed difference between them its unlikely the Hunter would even be able to keep track of the drinker unless it literally just stood still.

*The instant the Drinker has the Hunter in its line of sight the Hunter would be immediately crippled by its passive Horrific Gaze ability, which makes the Hunter unable to do anything other than walk around (It inflicts the Nauseated status, making the Hunter unable to attack, dodge, or use items or thought based abilities, thus nullifying effectively the entirety of the Hunter's arsenal including the use of things like the hunter and bold hunter marks). Coupled with the Drinker's movement speed advantage, this means that as soon as the Hunter is in range of the Gaze, he has zero means of escaping it or fighting back against the drinker as the drinker would be absurdly faster than the Hunter, enough so to keep him in line of sight for as long as it wants. On top of this, the Drinker's standard active ability, Drink Vision, makes it so that the Hunter would be unable to resist the effects of Horrific Gaze entirely.

*The drinker has thought based death manipulation that can bypass the Hunter's resurrection via Finger of Death and can KO him by thinking with Eyebite, and the drinker is absurdly more intelligent than the Hunter at that point in the game (As Lephyr put it: smart and skilled enough to fight an entire party of 4+ players stronger, more skilled, more versatile, and more haxxed than the hunter who also have prep time, prior knowledge, and summons and it can still viably kill all of them'). On top of this, the Drinker is 5x stronger than the Hunter, meaning that even if you want to try to argue that the drinker's instawin abilities arent starting moves it does not matter, once it's in range of the hunter the hunter can do literally nothing to protect himself or escape and they will die in a few attacks.

*As a what if-scenario (assuming the Drinker kills with something that doesnt bypass the Hunter's resurrection or incap him), even with the prior knowledge the Hunter would gain from the fight, there is nothing in his arsenal that can protect him against the Drinker's Gaze attack, which works even through eye concealing equipment, and even summoning allies to assist him wouldnt do much as they would all be just as weak and slow as him and just as susceptible to the Gaze attack, as well as the aformentioned 'can fight a party of adventurers alone and win' point previously stated.

So please, do tell me how this is not a stomp. The arguments for the Hunter winning rely on the Drinker acting entirely out of character, letting its ravens be picked off without doing anything, and standing completely still and letting the Hunter wail on it without defending itself.
Click to expand...
Bumping this
 
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