(GRACE) Vitreous Drinker vs The Hunter (Bloodborne) [Sorta REMATCH] 7-0-0

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

So last time this was done, it was analyzed poorly with couple of things being wrong or taken out of context. As such, let's retry.

To be noted, in that thread the match was debated extensively from multiple angles. Nevertheless, the combatants:

Vitreous Drinker: 7 (@Mr._Bambu, @Harith0cell, @Peppersalt43, @Tllmbrg, @Maverick_Zero_X, @InfiniteDay, @LIFE_OF_KING)
The Hunter:
Incon:

8-A versions used
Speed equalized

 

[WeeklyBattles]

But y tho

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

But y tho

For the profiles, lol

 

[WeeklyBattles]

For the profiles, lol

As of the previous thread the Drinker stomps, not sure why you think this would get added

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Drinker absolutely doesn't stomp though lol

The Hunter can, 100%, just beat it to death. It has no countermeasure to that nor do I consider it an unlikely scenario. Nothing about this is a stomp, it's just a situation where the Hunter can actually die- one where, due to the Drinker's resistances, I feel that to be the more likely scenario. This match can be added.

As in the last thread, I vote for the Drinker.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Without the restrictions of the 8-A thread the Drinker is now guided by Vecna, can instakill the Hunter in a way he cant res from, is more skilled than the hunter and his team combined, and is 5x to 8x stronger than the Hunter

The Drinker stomps

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

is more skilled than the hunter and his team combined

Didn't you argued extensively that the Hunter outskills? Why the sudden backtrack?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Didn't you argued extensively that the Hunter outskills? Why the sudden backtrack?

Because you and Bambu proved me wrong

 

[Mr. Bambu]

"Guided by Vecna" Not really, and I'm fairly certain outside help is blocked anyways unless it is intrinsic to the character (it is not for the Drinker).

It can instakill the Hunter, but this does not mean the Hunter cannot win as Finger of Death is not necessarily its default opening move.

You yourself argued it was less skilled, something I agree with. My counterargument isn't that it is more skilled, just that its specific wincon does not rely on skill. Being 5x stronger is not a stomp.

This is not a stomp. I consider it a conclusive match that was already debated in another thread.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Because you and Bambu proved me wrong

Bambu disagrees with me on that, so you might want to debate that part with him. For me, I would do argue it, but it is what it is.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

"Guided by Vecna" Not really, and I'm fairly certain outside help is blocked anyways unless it is intrinsic to the character (it is not for the Drinker).

It can instakill the Hunter, but this does not mean the Hunter cannot win as Finger of Death is not necessarily its default opening move.

You yourself argued it was less skilled, something I agree with. My counterargument isn't that it is more skilled, just that its specific wincon does not rely on skill. Being 5x stronger is not a stomp.

This is not a stomp. I consider it a conclusive match that was already debated in another thread.

According to its lore it is intrinsic to the Drinker

It doesnt need Finger of Death to do that, half of its abilities would instakill the Hunter

I disagree, the Drinker is more skilled.

It was debated and agreed that the Drinker stomps yes.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Bambu disagrees with me on that, so you might want to debate that part with him. For me, I would do argue it, but it is what it is.

I am doing so yes, I 100% agree that the drinker is more skilled

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

It was debated and agreed that the Drinker stomps yes.

This is not true. You are asserting that.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

In fact, I never even argued the monster could outskill, but that it's skill is enough to survive The Hunter and use finger of death.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

This is not true. You are asserting that.

Yes, I am asserting that based on the information presented in the previous thread. Hell even Gaze would work on the Hunter initially which would be a death sentence for him

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Yes, I am asserting that based on the information presented in the previous thread. Hell even Gaze would work on the Hunter initially which would be a death sentence for him

You said the hunter could rewind that tho?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

My man I made the page for the Drinker. This is not true, any more so than a standard worshiper of a god is guided by them (i.e., not at all outside of specific circumstances). Vecna isn't remote controlling the ******' thing.

You disagreed earlier. I disagree now. Finger of Death will instantly down and keep the Hunter down, that is the primary arguing point. To my knowledge, literally none of the other abilities keep the Hunter down.

You didn't before, you seem to only be doing so now to render this a stomp to keep a match off of the Hunter's page. That's scummy, Weekly, and you ought to know better after all this time.

Nobody agreed the Drinker outskilled. Read our words.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

In fact, I never even argued the monster could outskill, but that it's skill is enough to survive The Hunter and use finger of death.

Which is all that it needs because the Hunter is not strong enough to put the Drinker down before it literally just exists near him and incaps him via Gaze

 

[WeeklyBattles]

You said the hunter could rewind that tho?

He cannot no, as you pointed out they cant even take thought based actions which nulls the forced rewind

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Which is all that it needs because the Hunter is not strong enough to put the Drinker down before it literally just exists near him and incaps him via Gaze

Huh?

Lephyr: Resurrects? The ability doesn't kill by itself. He just gets incap'd. The Vitreus Drinker wouldn't want to kill immediately, it wants knowledge for Vecna. After getting incap'd, it's free real state for Detect Thoughts, potentially learning about the rewind. And that's assuming the Hunter gets to know it needs to stop being seen by the creature, assuming the creature doesn't keep abusing its hit-and-run tactics (as it is his standard tactic).

Weekly: Yes, The Hunter would auto-resurrect under that circumstance. Also can you post a link to Horrific Gaze? Ive looked on every D&D site and stat block for the Drinker and cant find any indication that this ability actually exists

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

He cannot no, as you pointed out they cant even take thought based actions which nulls the forced rewind

So you were straight lying in the thread. That's low, bruh.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

You disagreed earlier. I disagree now. Finger of Death will instantly down and keep the Hunter down, that is the primary arguing point. To my knowledge, literally none of the other abilities keep the Hunter down.

You didn't before, you seem to only be doing so now to render this a stomp to keep a match off of the Hunter's page. That's scummy, Weekly, and you ought to know better after all this time.

Nobody agreed the Drinker outskilled. Read our words.

Vampiric Touch soul sucks the Hunter, Horrific Gaze incaps him, even Eyebite has the potential to incap vis unconsciousness

Wow, really? After all these times people bitching at me not backing down when I'm wrong, yet the moment I admit I'm wrong you try to twist me agreeing with you and Lephyr as me trying to do something nefarious like that? Not cool

I agree the Drinker outskills

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Huh?

I was wrong.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

The entirety of the Vitreous Drinker's existence in D&D is contained on this singular page. Monster Manual IV, pg 174, 3.5e. The gaze attack is a temporary stat reduction that sickens/disorients the enemy. The actual killing move is Finger of Death, which instantly kills a target when they use it. Everything else the Drinker has, the Hunter can at least come back from, though they will be hampered by it obviously (although the Eye Drinking stuff is arguably not going to come back with resurrection, but it is, at least, not lethal).

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

The entirety of the Vitreous Drinker's existence in D&D is contained on this singular page.

This is not 100% true.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Vampiric Touch soul sucks the Hunter, Horrific Gaze incaps him, even Eyebite has the potential to incap vis unconsciousness

Wow, really? After all these times people bitching at me not backing down when I'm wrong, yet the moment I admit I'm wrong you try to twist me agreeing with you and Lephyr as me trying to do something nefarious like that? Not cool

I agree the Drinker outskills

Weekly, you have done nothing in this discussion except twist words and phrases, both on the page and as we type them, something you are doing in this very moment. When you returned from your ban, I had genuine hope that you'd change. With every new thread I see you on, I find less and less of that hope. In this thread alone, you have...

• Repeatedly ignored our actual argument and interpreted it in such a way that allows this to be anything but a applicable victory for the Drinker
• Added total headcanon to the Drinker's ability repertoire
• Repeatedly misrepresented opinions to create a false sense of consensus

...and so on. If you don't want me interpreting this as "Weekly has obviously returned to the very same shitty behavior that got him banned", I advise taking a step back, looking carefully at your actions, and changing them.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

This is not 100% true.

Yeah yeah, the typical treasure is on the next page. Technically so is the ass end of the strategies bit but all that establishes that's relevant is that

- it tries to play range

- it uses finger of death early if it thinks it'll score an easy win

I posted the above page for its stats since Weekly asserted that we lied about it having the gaze ability.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Yeah yeah, the typical treasure is on the next page. Technically so is the ass end of the strategies bit but all that establishes that's relevant is that

- it tries to play range

- it uses finger of death early if it thinks it'll score an easy win

I posted the above page for its stats since Weekly asserted that we lied about it having the gaze ability.

I didnt say you lied about the ability, I just said I couldnt find it

 

[WeeklyBattles]

The entirety of the Vitreous Drinker's existence in D&D is contained on this singular page. Monster Manual IV, pg 174, 3.5e. The gaze attack is a temporary stat reduction that sickens/disorients the enemy. The actual killing move is Finger of Death, which instantly kills a target when they use it. Everything else the Drinker has, the Hunter can at least come back from, though they will be hampered by it obviously (although the Eye Drinking stuff is arguably not going to come back with resurrection, but it is, at least, not lethal).

Said gaze effect lasts as long as the hunter is in range, which they will be constantly

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Yes. So the Hunter will be constantly sickened. This is not even a full incap.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I didnt say you lied about the ability, I just said I couldnt find it

Weekly: Yes, The Hunter would auto-resurrect under that circumstance. Also can you post a link to Horrific Gaze? Ive looked on every D&D site and stat block for the Drinker and cant find any indication that this ability actually exists

You implied it did not exist. That would be known as a lie, on the page. I'm curious as to what stats you were actually looking at.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Yes. So the Hunter will be constantly sickened. This is not even a full incap.

Nauseated

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Nauseated

Huh, mistook that for Sickened. Interesting, that does lean things more favorably in the Drinker's court, though they do start from 4 km away so I suppose it isn't so bad.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I will respond to this in a bit but I am adamant that the drinker stomps and this is an unfair match

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I believe you that you're adamant, I just don't agree and can't understand why you feel that way given that the definition of the stomp is based on a nigh-impossible win. The Hunter has every opportunity to win, and a number of advantages. He just doesn't hold the most advantages.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I believe you that you're adamant, I just don't agree and can't understand why you feel that way given that the definition of the stomp is based on a nigh-impossible win. The Hunter has every opportunity to win, and a number of advantages. He just doesn't hold the most advantages.

What advantages exactly? He cant fight the Drinker in cqc due to the Gaze preventing him from doing anything other than walking around, the Drinker is more skilled than him in cqc, the Drinker is 5x stronger than him, can instakill him with several of its abilities that would bypass his resurrection, can force an incap via Eyebite, theres literally nothing the Hunter can do here

 

[Mr. Bambu]

The Hunter has kilometers of range and can kill from that distance. Most of the methods through which the Vitreous drinker can kill the Hunter, will not put it down, at which point the Hunter can take some deal of prep time, as previously pointed out by you. The Hunter is, whether you like it or not, the more skilled of the two, undeniably- saying otherwise completely misunderstands how the Drinker works.

Yeah, the Hunter can't do anything really in CQC, nor can he tank a Finger of Death. The Drinker's spells are going to **** the Hunter up, no question. But that does not totally negate the presence of a win condition. You seem greatly confused on the difference between a stomp (a situation in which a character has no reasonable win condition) and a conclusive victory (a situation in which a character wins over another in most situations in which they fight).

 

[WeeklyBattles]

The Hunter has kilometers of range and can kill from that distance. Most of the methods through which the Vitreous drinker can kill the Hunter, will not put it down, at which point the Hunter can take some deal of prep time, as previously pointed out by you. The Hunter is, whether you like it or not, the more skilled of the two, undeniably- saying otherwise completely misunderstands how the Drinker works.

Yeah, the Hunter can't do anything really in CQC, nor can he tank a Finger of Death. The Drinker's spells are going to **** the Hunter up, no question. But that does not totally negate the presence of a win condition. You seem greatly confused on the difference between a stomp (a situation in which a character has no reasonable win condition) and a conclusive victory (a situation in which a character wins over another in most situations in which they fight).

The Hunter does not have kilometers range in any key except the Great One, in his 8-A key he only has tens of meters range

The Hunter has zero wincons here.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

The Hunter does not have kilometers range in any key except the Great One, in his 8-A key he only has tens of meters range

The Hunter has zero wincons here.

Hundreds of meters, apologies. Regardless, the drinker's gaze is 60 foot range.

The Hunter literally does.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Hundreds of meters, apologies. Regardless, the drinker's gaze is 60 foot range.

The Hunter literally does.

Hundreds of meters range is for his 7-C keys onwards as that's when he gets stuff like the Bowblade and cannons, his 8-A key is tens of meters

Such as?