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That's a good question. Xearsay says that the Source Wall is 1-A, if that's the case, and if we ignore the contradictions it brings about and assume the unnamed "barrier" that UDM can destroy is in fact the Source Wall, then they would be 1-A. I just don't think that argument holds much water if any.
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It was barriers. Implying there’s more than one they’re going to tear down.
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Yep.
Or it's a vague collection of barriers referred to in the plural? There's no reason to believe (and many reasons why it can't be the case) that it's "the cosmic membrane (and also the Source Wall)"
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This is a misrepresentation of the material. It was never said that the Source Wall separated them, and that notion has been thoroughly debunked by multiple users in this thread, and you never formed a meaningful counterargument to the problems with that theory.
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I think that Hecate and the Upside Down Man can be 1-A and since the Great Darkness/Great Evil Beast was a sliver of the Otherkinds' power which apparently contradict the origin story, it should have a second key on its profile. If a second key is added on the Great Evil Beast profile, we should consider this version (Otherkinds Fragment) as weaker than the Presence and the yellow hand on which the Great Evil Beast was portrayed as equal was merely an aspect of the Presence. Also, a footnote should maybe be added justifying the second key. That's my opinion.
As i said earlier, Hecate being more powerful than the Presence make no sense since the Collective Unconscious was born from the Presence/Source.
As i said earlier, Hecate being more powerful than the Presence make no sense since the Collective Unconscious was born from the Presence/Source.
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Deagonx and Elizio33 seem to make sense to me.
What do you think that we should do regarding Hecate and TUDM Sandman31?
Also, would you be willing to modify The Unwritten so you think the scaling turns more reliable please?
What do you think that we should do regarding Hecate and TUDM Sandman31?
Also, would you be willing to modify The Unwritten so you think the scaling turns more reliable please?
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What makes you say they can be 1-A?
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Seems to be a long read so what's agree disagree ratio right now?
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So far the majority agree. Around 8 - 3
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You asked a question, answered it for yourself, and laughed at a fake answer that you created.
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To my understanding, the Vertigo darkness is the giant blob of darkness that shook hands with god.
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So geb. But iirc he originated in dc but was later mentioned in vertigo
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Thanks for the information Sherlock.
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So before i start here i wanna say that im perfectly fine with what you've said here but i have to ask your saying we need some sort of concrete statement or such to say theyre an im curious as to what such a statement should look like. Ive just quickly reread the book and i must say me compring the name the great beast to geb was wrong an i apologize for that. Its wrong for multiple reasons one ur reason and secondly because geb doesn't have a name. Or he does its never stated in the issue that he appears. He simply referred to as the darkness or evil. Thia being said im curious as to what your looking for specifically? As ive said both are referred to as satan. Both cn literally be categorized as the same thing as abel said to cain isnt this just another story about good an evil? Cain. No this about the ultimate dark or evil and the ultimate light or good. Even after there fight they speak of them as theyre the concept itself an i urge you to read the story to check this if you dont remember its swamp thing 1982 issue 50. This is no different to what Lucifer is discribed as in his new series on top of that they both define the light which is explained in multiple ways at least for geb. Both are locked in this endless fight with the presence and both were stated to be necessary for one another in both storylines. So they like fill the same roles to a T an on top of that both exist in the same verse. On top of that you have a visual representation. And i mean idk how you feel about author statements but dan definitely gave clear intent. So i ask what exactly else are you looking for?I don't think Lucifer, as he was portrayed in the most recent run, is just a Fallen Angel. It's been explicitly stated that he's not an angel like Michael (Though this Michael doesn't also seems to be anywhere near as powerful as the portrayal in the 2000 run)and the rest. But I don't think he's the GEB either.
I think he's more of something like the Endless, he's an entity who represents the "darkness" or the adversary. Just like the Endless, he's an entity that doesn't fit in a single mythology but more of a counterpart to the Presence here who is supposed to be "the Light"
I think Lucifer here is more like "the darkness" in the universe. The only thing connecting him to the Void is the fact that he came into existence in a dark void. Which doesn't really mean he is the void.
The "Great Beast" doesn't mean "Great Evil Beast"
That line is just referencing The Second Coming poem, specifically the last line
"And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?"
-The Second Coming
"There is a great beast slouching towards Bethlehem, slouching towards us all"
So its an obvious reference to that and not to Swamp Thing
"But they're close enough! its similar to GEB, so it has to be GEB!"
This portrayal of Lucifer does seem similar to the GEB but we don't have concrete proof that he is The GEB. Pralaya is similar to GEB too, actually she's has more similarities to the GEB than Lucifer, yet we dont consider him the GEB. Why? because there's no concrete proof that she is.
"But he's the counterpart to God, so he has to be the GEB"
God's counterpart/nemesis etc is Lucifer, which he is.
You don't need to be the GEB to be considered as God's counterpart, Lucifer is already a counterpart to God. Not saying that GEB cant be Lucifer but saying that two characters are the same needs a direct statement saying that they are, and not just some similarities.
Anyway, I think Lucifer is the darkness, he's a counterpart to the light, but there's nothing saying that he's the dark void before Creation (In contrast he said that he was born in the dark void)
Also, I think we should have a separate key for this 2018 Lucifer, because I'm now convinced its a reboot.
https://ew.com/books/2018/08/08/sandman-universe-1-new-lucifer-story/amp/
Clearly, the devil has been going through some tough times. But even though Lucifer followed his appearances in The Sandman with a 75-issue solo series written by Mike Carey and a more recent 19-issue series written by Holly Black, Watters is clear that none of that is necessary to follow the characters new adventure
"Because this is The Sandman Universe, we wanted to go back to The Sandman and the roots of the character," Watters tells EW. "Lucifer has had these amazing long runs by Mike Carey and Holly Black, and it's got this hugely successful TV show, so it's trying to balance a version of him that will appeal to everyone who loves this character, but also doesn't require you to have read a bunch of books or three seasons of a TV show. We were very much looking back to Sandman and using that as our primary source material."
Some people are saying that Dan Watters said it happened before the 2000 and 2016 run. Which is basically just saying that it happened after the original Sandman, it doesn't say whether it considers the other Lucifer runs canon to it.
I actually thought that was the case but that couldn't have been the case because in this run, if this is before the 2000 run then Michael shouldnt be in the Silver City. Actually, it looks like he wasn't stabbed in the back by Sandalphon and was never imprisoned. That's a pretty major change because that basically removes one of the major antagonist in the Mike Carey run and is drastic change to the history a major character. It also can't be explained that "Lucifers a fractional entity" because this isn't about Lucifer and the new run made it clear that none of the other angels, Michael included, is like Lucifer.
"Maybe this is set before Michael was imprisoned?"
Michael was imprisoned nearly at the same time as Lucifer fell. So that's out of the question.
Aside from that, another major change to Michael's character here is that he's just so weak. Really. This guy is just Michael. He doesnt seem to posses what makes Michael Demiurgos unique among everything in existence, which is the Dunamis Demiurgos.
If this is the same Michael as the 2000 Michael then this shouldnt be happening
Michael getting weak and disappearing because there's less of the Presence's Will to go around is contradictory to his role as the bearer of the Demiurge, God's second, basically him being the Presence 2.0.
God disappearing shouldn't do anything to Michael, hell the only reason why Creation survived as long as it did in the 2000 run was because Michael was using his will to keep renewing Creation. When he died and transferred his powers to Elaine, Creation started fading out of existence as well. And another thing, since Michael wasn't imprisoned by Sandalphon then Elaine doesn't exist in this run.
That's not even all of the changes but I think its clear how this pretty much ignored the previous Lucifer runs.
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Can you please explain what’s wrong with my behavior?
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You mean sarcasm. Since that's all I did. Make a sarcastic response to someone claiming they've exposed me. Well I'm sorry if it came off that way. To be honest I thought I was expressing myself in a more good-humored manner but I was unaware that such responses are not allowed on here. Won't happen again.
However don't you think Deagonx trying to spread the notion that I've been exposed in the thread to be a little rude as well? Surely people can disagree with each other in a more healthy manner rather than trying to aggressively spout claims of having "debunked" other users.
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Show a scan where the comicsclearly reference American Gothic and him being called the Great Evil Beast because the darkness/dark has been used to describe simar entities in the paat. Why should we consider them as the same character just based on similarities?
Maybe just put a note on how they may possibly be the same character but with no direct in universe confirmation.
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Ok i see what you're saying and tbf they do not reference that swamp thing issue in the new series. Nor do they specifically say his name as the great evil beast. The closest was the great beast. Which as you pointed out is most likely referring to said poem. Tbf though like i said i dont believe geb was ever referred to as that either i reread tht issue just to be sure an came up with notta so tbh im not quite sure where ppl got the name from.
and i think what i was getting at was a little more than similarities you do have that representation no its not called geb but then your given author intent and if thats not good enough for you then you look at the characteristics an they share a lot being the concept of darkness that defines the light an being necessary for the light an such. Like there roles are legit pretty much the same. Along with them sharing a name and well a common enemy and with them existing in the same verse. Both being evil itself i do not see why they couldn't be a viewpoint or perspective or face of the same entity aka evil or darkness itself. But if this is all not enough i completely agree Lucifer regardless needs a new key and i think this shoukd be a note at the very least with saying its a possibility. I think the implications are great enough. but i think this also allows that if theyre not good enough to have it there an if a direct confirmation happens in comic itll be a easy change or if not i dont see it hurting anything by it being there
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Well as far as im concerned at least on my part i think Lucifer should get a new key with the note that he is possibly geb i think the implications are at the very least great enough to warrant this an who knows if sometime in the future they reference that issue at least its an easy fix if not i dont see what it hurts as for the other part i leave that to you all
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Way less contradictions is false. The Otherkind "sliver" backstory is far more incompatible with the original American Gothic story than Lucifer's, who has a direct connection to the Presence, and doesn't create an incoherent power scaling. Likewise, the Otherkind being Hecate's opposite in the dark multiverse makes even less sense for the American Gothic storyline.
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In my opinion the best thing to do is, 1) make different keys for lucifer, give the otherkind 1A due to them being part or superior to the geb that came in swampthing, which is 1A. Lucifer, the Presence will not get downgraded, the upside down man and hecate would be upgraded, and everyone would be happy (I guess).
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I only had two problems which was because of Michael the rat.
1) geb, and thing
2) the Presence downplay.
We all agreed that Michael the rat was dishonest and wrong so we ignored his bias stupid out of context wank for the monitors and downplay for the Presence. And we also agreed that lucifer is linked to geb, the otherkind are too, so both should get upgraded.
1) geb, and thing
2) the Presence downplay.
We all agreed that Michael the rat was dishonest and wrong so we ignored his bias stupid out of context wank for the monitors and downplay for the Presence. And we also agreed that lucifer is linked to geb, the otherkind are too, so both should get upgraded.
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@C2_of_Omegon @Eficiente @Sandman31 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @LuciferDC099 @Newendigo @Ehnkr2beboh @Deagonx @Elizio33 @Planck69 @Zensum
What do you think that we should do here?
What do you think that we should do here?
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You just agreed to try to clean up your act.
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