Upside Down Man/Great Evil Beast revisions

[Sandman31]

Where is it stated that way? I just remember lucifer flying through the overvoid and seeing different creations.

1

"Since past and present ha no real meaning here, to argue whether this creation came before or after Yahweh is futile. One and one are not two, if one and one cannot meet. Distance is not time"

The creations are not separated by distance they are separated by time.

Wher is it stated that silk man is from an older creation of the same one? It's literally stated he hope from one creation to another, wouldn't make sense for him to be from an older same creation. And jim en monks were from a different creation which came before yaweh's, I don't remember it's stating it was the same creation.

Again

The Silk Man escaped into the Void, once you're in the Void causality doesn't matter.

Also, I'm not saying that the Creations are the same as in they're literally the same, the creations in the Void are just versions of each other. They're the same in the sense theyre not entirely different because in Vertigo, once the current creation ends, another version of it will pop up. When you're in the Void, whats happening is that due to its timeless nature all of those Creations that came before and after the Presence's creation now appear to exists simultaneously because causality meaningless there.

That's why the Silk Man said "There will be other Creations. And other Makers" and not "There are other Creations. And other Makers"

These Creations are not separated by distance, they are separated by time. That's why these creations cannot "meet."

Thats why Lucifer said that the Presence's Creation and Silk Man's are 1 and 1 and not a 2.

Lucifer even said "One and one are not two, if one and one cannot meet. Distance is not time"

 

[Sandman31]

Plus I just started reading the unwritten, is the cactean heiracrchy fake?

How is it fake? its literally one of the major plot point the series. When Leviathan dies, the order that keeps his ilk in place got all screwed up leading to the destruction of reality and with the other Leviathans creating their own stories without the alpha Leviathan keeping things in check

Anyway, this thread is already derailed enough. So lets stick to the topic

 

[Amakasu]

Plus I just started reading the unwritten, is the cactean heiracrchy fake?

How is it fake? its literally one of the major plot point the series. When Leviathan dies, the order that keeps his ilk in place got all screwed up leading to the destruction of reality and with the other Leviathans creating their own stories without the alpha Leviathan keeping things in check

I heard from a lot of people that cactean heiracrchy dosent trancend the heiracrchy of stories. I think it's the downplayers, have to read the comic for myself I guess.

Anyway, this thread is already derailed enough. So lets stick to the topic

I agree. I don't necessarily agree with your interpretation, but I can definitely see it's good. I'll message you back if I got the chance

 

[Sandman31]

I agree. I don't necessarily agree with your interpretation, but I can definitely see it's good. I'll message you back if I got the chance
Well, I dont completely agree with my previous interpretation either but I'm too lazy to make a revision.

 

[Amakasu]

Where is it stated that way? I just remember lucifer flying through the overvoid and seeing different creations.

1

"Since past and present has no real meaning here, to argue whether this creation came before or after Yahweh is futile. One and one are not two, if one and one cannot meet. Distance is not time"

Firstly the quote "since last and present has no real meaning here, to argue whether this creation came before or after yaweh is futile" can be interpreted many ways, it can just simply mean that creations are continuisuly rising and falling in the overvoid, as this scan suggests. Yaweh's creation can be just one creation created before or after another. Plus the silk man also says, "you are wrong, stranger. Look another creation dawns. If those were the same creations just different iteration, silk man wouldn't had said that.

The creations are not separated by distance they are separated by time.

Wher is it stated that silk man is from an older creation of the same one? It's literally stated he hope from one creation to another, wouldn't make sense for him to be from an older same creation. And jim en monks were from a different creation which came before yaweh's, I don't remember it's stating it was the same creation.

Again

The Silk Man escaped into the Void, once you're in the Void causality doesn't matter.

That dosen't answer my question.

Also, I'm not saying that the Creations are the same as in they're literally the same, the creations in the Void are just versions of each other. They're the same in the sense theyre not entirely different because in Vertigo, once the current creation ends, another version of it will pop up. When you're in the Void, whats happening is that due to its timeless nature all of those Creations that came before and after the Presence's creation now appear to exists simultaneously because causality meaningless there.

Imo the presence has already created several creations before the current one.

That's why the Silk Man said "There will be other Creations. And other Makers" and not "There are other Creations. And other Makers"

Because creations continuisuly rise and fall in the overvoid, there would be more creators in those specific creations. Plus in your scan it's literally stated that those creations already exists when lilith says, ""but the creatures in those other creations."

These Creations are not separated by distance, they are separated by time. That's why these creations cannot "meet."

Ok?

Thats why Lucifer said that the Presence's Creation and Silk Man's are 1 and 1 and not a 2.

Lucifer even said "One and one are not two, if one and one cannot meet. Distance is not time"

The scan just says that you can't say one creation and another creation as two if they can't meat. Distance is not time.

 

[Amakasu]

@Sandman31 I think we should stop this discussion, it's firstly not related to the thread, both have different interpretation which are both true, and we are never going to come to conclusion. If you don't think the creations in the void are not the greater omnivere or even the void is the overvoid then fine.

 

[Deagonx]

He is no ordinary fallen angel but he still is one and it’s distinguished in the swamp thing run

Again, the quote is "Fallen Angel of Leviathan." Leviathan is a specific biblical/demonology figure that isn't Lucifer or Satan, so it's moot.

 

[Antvasima]

@Sandman31 @LuciferDC099 @Firestorm808 @Deagonx

What do you think that we should do here?

 

[Sandman31]

I feel like even if the Lucifer = GEB thing is true, then it would be more appropriate to consider it as a retcon than something that was true all along.

 

[Amakasu]

Why don't we just make two keys for geb? That's much more easy.

 

[Amakasu]

Also lucifer is part of death metal, or the saga in general. Lucifer 2018 is the line up of Sandman, in which dream literally leaves the dreaming, and this same thing happens in dark knights metal. So lucifer 2018 is as much connected to death metal as jld 2018

 

[Deagonx]

@Sandman31 @LuciferDC099 @Firestorm808 @Deagonx

What do you think that we should do here?

I think 1-C is an appropriate rating given their shown abilities. There's arguments to be made in both directions for scaling (scaling above Dream, yet scaling below Perpetua, etc.) but the actual feats (universe/realm destruction) don't go beyond 1-C, and the GEB argument is moot as demonstrated, since GEB's original characteristics are incompatible with the Otherkind's origin, and with GEB being 1-A, there's just no way for it to be a "sliver" of the Otherkind without retconning it's power to be <UDM, which would make scaling them to GEB moot in the first place.

As far as the Dream scaling is concerned, it's iffy. We know that Death of the Endless was able to operate in Lucifer's separate multiverse, so I think a workable explanation for why Hecate hasn't shown that much power but is "above" Dream is that the Endless are Omniversal functionaries rather than just Multiversal. I think this makes sense as the Collective Unconscious (divinity through shared belief) doesn't make a lot of sense for the Endless, since they aren't part of any formalized religion, most people don't know about them, and yet they're among the most powerful "gods" of DC.

 

[Amakasu]

@Deagonx I think her being above dream is pretty solidified. Dream also have different versions of himself but they are still the same, so there isn't necessarily a more powerful dream of the endless.

 

[Deagonx]

I think her being above dream is pretty solidified

How so? To my knowledge they haven't interacted, but I could be wrong. It's been a while since I read JLD.

Dream also have different versions of himself but they are still the same, so there isn't necessarily a more powerful dream of the endless.

I'm not really talking about a different version.

 

[LuciferDC099]

I think Hecate and UDM should stay at Low 1-C.

 

[Amakasu]

How so? To my knowledge they haven't interacted, but I could be wrong. It's been a while since I read JLD.

Yes they haven't met, But it's stated that the dreaming is possible because of the collective Unconsciousness, or that the collective Unconsciousness is what makes dreams happen. Plus the entire dream of the thousand cat is a reference to the Collective unconsciousness

I'm not really talking about a different version.

So what are you specifically talking about?

 

[Deagonx]

Yes they haven't met, But it's stated that the dreaming is possible because of the collective Unconsciousness,

Yes, but that might refer to just the Dreaming realm for the DC Multiverse, not necessarily Dream of the Endless himself.

So what are you specifically talking about?

The idea that Dream is actually an Omniversal concept, not a multiversal one.

 

[Amakasu]

Yes, but that might refer to just the Dreaming realm for the DC Multiverse, not necessarily Dream of the Endless himself.

Yes, that's a pretty good conclusion, but I'm sure the dreaming is considered 1A in VSB not sure.

The idea that Dream is actually an Omniversal concept, not a multiversal one.

Now you have mentioned it, it's definitely possible. Death can appear anywhere in the overvoid, not sure about destiny.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you all for trying to politely figure out a workable solution here.

 

[Xearsay]

Why don't we just make two keys for geb? That's much more easy.

That's actually a good idea.

 

[Amakasu]

Thank you all for trying to politely figure out a workable solution here.

So I say we can definitely upgrade hecate and the upside down man to 1A despite arguing about geb. Hecate is what allows the dreaming to happen, The dreaming is an archetypal plane of existence with archetypal beings in it, it's also metaphysical. And this is very consistent, I think @Sandman31 can answer more in this then me.

 

[Amakasu]

So here's my solution to this mess.

1) we should make both keys for GEB, one associating with lucifer and the other with the other kind, both scaling to the initial geb. That's a better conclusion then arguing over canon as canon is subjective.

2) Hecate should be above the dreaming, which is an archetypal plane of existence with archetypal beings in it, and is beyond time and space and dimensions too.

@Xearsay @Deagonx @Antvasima @Sandman31

 

[Deagonx]

the other with the other kind, both scaling to the initial geb.

I have to disagree with this, as it makes the rest of the cosmology incoherent. If a 1-A being is a sliver of the Otherkind, that would make them significantly more powerful than Perpetua who is 1-A at her very highest. I think we can't consider GEB equal to the Presence if he is also a sliver of the Otherkind, because the Presence is far higher than the Otherkind in the current canon.

 

[Amakasu]

I have to disagree with this, as it makes the rest of the cosmology incoherent. If a 1-A being is a sliver of the Otherkind, that would make them significantly more powerful than Perpetua who is 1-A at her very highest. I think we can't consider GEB equal to the Presence if he is also a sliver of the Otherkind, because the Presence is far higher than the Otherkind in the current canon.

Dc cosmology in itself is mess af, that's why I look for consistency, but this entire situation can't be explain in that. Perpetua over here is 1A, atleast one key of hers, so pls don't argue for perpetua as we won't reach anywhere. And yes, I think the Presence is far higher than perpetua, geb or anybody in dc at the moment, plus there's plenty of evidence in swampthing to say the hand was an aspect of the Presence so yeah we can see that.

 

[Amakasu]

Plus there's level of 1A, she can just be a little higher in 1A. Also sorry for not looking into your message, I didn't saw that part of the message.

 

[Deagonx]

Perpetua over here is 1A, atleast one key of hers

Right, that's my point. If Perpetua is 1A and is above the Otherkind, how can a sliver of the Otherkind's power also be 1-A and also equal to the Presence? That's why I think scaling the otherkind to the original GEB is too flawed.

 

[Xearsay]

Thank you all for trying to politely figure out a workable solution here.

7 people agreed with the upgrades, potentially 8, and only 2 disagreed. Is the upgrade good enough to go or no? Outside of the whole GEB thing they still have the source wall feat. I kind of want to get this over with.

 

[Amakasu]

Right, that's my point. If Perpetua is 1A and is above the Otherkind, how can a sliver of the Otherkind's power also be 1-A and also equal to the Presence? That's why I think scaling the otherkind to the original GEB is too flawed.

So here's this. geb (1A)< other kind (1A) < perpetua (1A) < lucifer and Michael (1A) <<<<< the Presence/Source/overvoid (High 1A)

 

[Deagonx]

7 people agreed with the upgrades and only 3(counting you) disagreed.

It's not a vote amongst the regular users, it's by staff consensus.

Outside of the whole GEB thing they still have the source wall feat.

No, they don't, I debunked that pretty thoroughly.

 

[Xearsay]

The majority of staff agreed lol. No you didn't and I'm not about to have this discussion again.

 

[Deagonx]

The majority of staff agreed lol

The only staff members who commented were Antvasima, Sera, and Firestorm. None of them said they agree with 1-A in the manner you are suggesting. Firestorm said he needed to review, Sera said being called "Greater than the Presence" shouldn't take precedent over feats, and Antvasima, as you said, leans towards disagreeing with this upgrade.

lol no you didn't

Yes, I did.

i'm not about to have this discussion again.

That's fine. There's no need to rehash the same debunk.

 

[Xearsay]

Sera was addressing a notion spread by Michael. Which has nothing to do with what's in my post. Firestorm said he had to read through it. The only ones who showcased whether they agreed or disagreed with my post itself were Matt, Eficient, and Qwased who both agreed. And Antvasima actually said he wasn't sure yet so it's a mistake on my part to include him.

It's actually 8 agreed - 2 disagreed. My bad.

 

[Deagonx]

The only ones who showcased whether they agreed or disagreed with my post itself were Matt, Eficient, and Qwased who both agreed.

Matt is not a staff member. Eficiente's only comment says "The EE is Deconstruction" and Qawsedf said he thinks it seems fine but wants to see the AP Justification written out before any updates, and hasn't participated in the thread since the debunks. Not sure why you feel the need to misrepresent something like that. Most of the staff who did participate didn't give their opinion at all.

 

[Antvasima]

We do not have any concrete conclusions yet, yes. My opinion here is mostly restricted to agreeing with the following quote so far. I am not sure where to place Hecate and The Upside-Down Man in terms of tiering.

I have to disagree with this, as it makes the rest of the cosmology incoherent. If a 1-A being is a sliver of the Otherkind, that would make them significantly more powerful than Perpetua who is 1-A at her very highest. I think we can't consider GEB equal to the Presence if he is also a sliver of the Otherkind, because the Presence is far higher than the Otherkind in the current canon.

 

[Amakasu]

We do not have any concrete conclusions yet, yes. My opinion here is mostly restricted to agreeing with the following quote so far. I am not sure where to place Hecate and The Upside-Down Man in terms of tiering.

Can't we just make two keys for geb, and make hecate and upside down man 1A? Like the feats I showed proved that there's 1A evidence.

 

[Antvasima]

As Deagonx said, scaling The Upside-Down Man to the GEB would make the cosmology far too incoherent. Sorry.

We still need to work out agreements about Hecate's and the UDM tiers, and Firestorm808 has not responded yet.

 

[Xearsay]

Lol this is so petty. Eficient liked my post. That’s still two staff and 6 people, vs 2.

 

[Malomtek]

The "1-A" may be incompatible with the current Perpetua Creation Story anyways.

In what way specifically?

In all honestly, mods, I am tremendously sorry I even engaged in responding to him on anything at all. It was totally my fault here for even replying to him. I won't be making that mistake in the future. I hope nobody is listening to him on any of these subjects, this guy just told us to our faces that the arguments on Page one that he brandished were actually fake, we apparently hallucinated Deagon saying that the Otherkind were not from the Dark Multiverse.

I gotta say that this is some hilariously blatant trolling you're doing here. The attempt at acting like you're some sort of "commander of the forums" is a nice touch.

For the thread in general:

Hecate/Upside Down Man may be 1-A, but they're not greater than the Presence. That is pure headcanon based on absurd extrapolations of rather hyperbolic one-off statements.

Heck, it's not even likely that they're greater than Yahweh, the manifestation of the Presence. Yahweh is, shall we say, not like the other gods, and as the creator of the greater DC universe (including the Dreaming and Collective Unconscious), should logically be far superior to any internal cosmic hierarchy based on subconsciousness/dreams, even if his manifested form is shaped by them.

All this arguing over the relationship between the Presence, Source, and Overvoid is dumb, because they've been explicitly described and depicted as one and the same in so many comics and interviews that it's actually baffling to see people argue in any other way.

The Yahweh that met the "Great Evil Beast" isn't necessarily the same as the Yahweh in any other story anyway. They're all manifestations of the same God-concept. They're not all going to have the exact same power level.

The Source Wall doesn't exist to separate the Multiverse from the Dark Multiverse, and I don't know how anyone got that. The Dark Multiverse is explicitly described as being on the "flip side" or "underside" or "underneath" the regular Multiverse. The Source Wall isn't, because the Source Wall is what separates the Multiverse from the Source/Overvoid.

The references of "great darkness" in regards to the "Otherkind" or "Other Place" or whatever is clearly poetic language and not references to any specific character. I don't even think the "Great Darkness" character ever really had a specific name to begin with, so saying that any mention of a "great darkness" is a one-to-one reference of the "Great Darkness" is just asinine. Same with the name "Great Evil Beast".

The "Other Place" itself is just the dark mirror of the Sphere of the Gods.

Lucifer may or may not ultimately be one and the same with the "Great Evil Beast"/"Great Darkness" of Swamp Thing/American Gothic. I'm leaning towards the former, however.

I otherwise can't make heads or tales of the arguments over the Hecate/Upside Down Man/Otherkind/Other Place/Dream/Dreaming/Collective Unconsciousness/Lucifer/Great Darkness/Great Evil Beast/Mother Night/Father Time/Presence/Yahweh/Source/Overvoid relationship, due to how convoluted and incoherent said arguments have gotten.

 

[Antvasima]

Lol this is so petty. Eficient liked my post. That’s still two staff and 6 people, vs 2.

Don't be rude. This isn't a popularity contest, your interpetation of who supports what is suspicious, and the discussion has been convoluted, so we need to try to straighten things out and use rational reasoning to reach a logical agreement, not force things through prematurely.

 

[Amakasu]

So the upgrade is fine? The Presence will still remain top dog, udm and others are 1A and we should make two keys for geb. Like how is this hard to understand?