Upgrade Source/ Root/ Origin in Maou Gakuin to type 1 concept, Again Pt. 2

[Tatsumi504]

Continued from the previous thread

Source/Root​

---

The source is the fundamental concept of existence, and it defines all aspects of an individual.

The fundamental concept of existence that all living things hold within them. An excellent magician can be reincarnated with the memories of their life kept in their source, and even if the physical body perishes, as long as the source is intact, they can be revived.

-LN Volume 1 Keyword​

It was the truth, but Liorg didn’t seem inclined to believe it. After all, magic is born from each individual’s source. These sources reside within our bodies, beyond our souls, beyond our spirits—deep within the abyss. It’s what makes us who we are.

-LN Volume 1 Chapter 6​

Fire Dew​

---

It is the very power the world contains and the stability of reality is determined by it. Fire Dew is Life itself.

A visualization of the laws that affect the "Source" of the earth, which flows in the depths of the "Azure Sky of the Gods". It is the very power itself that the world contains, and the strength of the world's order is approximately equivalent to the total amount of fire dew that it contains.

-LN Volume 11 Keyword.​

Source= Fire Dew​

---

There is no indirect relationship between the source and fire dew neither do their applications differ. The relationship between the two is beyond even a direct comparison because the source is Fire Dew.

The scene before my eyes turned white, and the slight sound of water echoed in my ears.
What appeared in my field of vision was an enormous waterfall that I could not see at a glance.
The azure water pouring down from the sky fell into a circular cliff as high as a mountain, and it flowed down in all directions.
The water glows faintly and scatters particles of light.
The sound of the water is as quiet as a murmuring stream, even though it is a waterfall of this magnitude.
The light of life, the water of life, the wind of life, the leaves of life. Fire dew changes and circulates in this fundamental law cyclic garden.
[...]
We, the Four fundamental deities, are the gods who govern the fundamental principles at the root of order and the source of life."
[...]
I see. In other words, fire dew is the source on earth. The fire dew circulates in this --that is, the source reincarnates because of the order of the four gods of the tree.

WN Chapter 423​

Fire Dew
Something that flows through the Fundamental Laws Cyclic Garden, the domains of the Four Fundamental Laws Gods, equivalent to the term "Source" in the world of mortals. It is born, deepens, meets its demise, changes and cycles back to birth again, gradually decreasing its total amount in the process.

-LN Volume 10 Keyword​

"Life is something that reincarnates. The root that has been born deepens. That means growth. At the end of the deepening there is an end. The root that has reached the end, however, transforms into a different form. And you will have a new birth.”

WN Chapter 424.​

Further Proof of the Source being Fire Dew being individuals reincarnate outside their original world because their fire dew flows out of it

However, it crossed over to another small world.
"... hey... then, could it be...?"
Sasha mutters next to me.
Misha whispered.
"Mother's fire dew is outside the world"
Their mother, Elenesia, the creator god, perished.
That's how it is in the Militia world.
However, in fact, her roots became fire dew and crossed the world.
Then, in the world of magic bullets, she was born again as a creator god.

-WN Chapter 502.​

What reincarnates is the source a characters fire dew leaking to a different world causes them to be reincarnated there.

He looked at my face, saw my magic, and he was speechless.
It was a long, very long silence.
"........................... ...Your Majesty ......"
Finally, he said just that.
There was no way he could have mistaken it.
There was Farris Noin, a rare master of creative art who scattered in the sky of destruction 2,000 years ago.
[...]
"How good is your memory?"
I asked, and he nodded with a calm expression on his face.
"As long as you use the 'reincarnation' <silica>, the shine may never fade away, even if it washes up in the ocean outside."
Reincarnation Silica is a limited magic, and cannot be used outside the world of Militia.
However, as long as it is activated in the world of Militia, it is effective even if its roots flow to the small world outside.
Since the Militia world is the 0th layer, the shallowest world, its order and magical laws pervade all the smaller worlds below it.
Although it is a limited magic when activated, a weak magical law is probably sufficient for reincarnation in another world.

This alone should be enough to prove that Fire Dew is the Source.

Fire Dew & Reality​

---

Fire Dew is what governs/influences Order. The more Fire Dew there is, the stronger Order is.

Order
The various laws that make up the world, or the power of the gods that keep these laws normal. There are various orders such as “time”, “creation”, and “destruction”, and the same number of gods control them.

~ LN Volume 4 (I); Keyword​

"It is the reason why this world is the world it is. Why is a bird a bird, why is a demon a demon? The heavens send down rain to moisten the earth and nurture the trees. If you draw a magic circle and put magic power into the magic formula, the light will come on. These are what we call the laws of nature, the laws of magic, the order that makes this world what it is."

~ WN Chapter 120​

All Orders are already accepted as type 1 concepts.

In Bubble Worlds, there is no Chief God to control Order and as a result fire dew leaks outside the world

In a world without the blessing of the Chief God, there is no consistency of order, and the fire dew overflows outward. The destination is the world's destruction.

Because fire dew is being lost, the world is always heading towards destruction.

You started robbing the fire dew when I visited this azure sky of the gods. Why didn't you take it away earlier?"

"Why, I wasn't even born?"

"No, you weren't. You were created in a hurry, to pull the wool over my eyes."

The air in the room is tinged with thought.

It was Dilfred who quickly opened his mouth.

"Are you trying to cover something up?"

"Yes, that's right. If you want to hide a tree, hide it in a forest; if you want to hide people, hide them in a city; what is it that you want to hide, Vade?"

After blinking twice, Misha muttered in a huff.

"The missing fire dew."

"Yes. The fire dew was deprived from the beginning. The order of destruction and creation are equal. Despite the alignment, destruction is always greater in the world. Here in the Fundamental Law Garden, the fire dew was stolen little by little, without the four fundamental deities being aware of it."

The loss of fire dew weakens Order and causes the destruction of the world.

Currently, it is midnight in Hypholia.

Considering that it is the same here, it is not unnatural that the sky is dark, but there is not a single light on the ground.

No, on the contrary, there was not a single sign of human presence.

The presence of life was infinitesimally rare.

"It's on the verge of ...... perishing,......it's probably lost most of its fire dew. Not uncommon in the bubble world, I hear."

Below, the loss of fire dew causes the sanctuary of the 4 Fundamental Gods to collapse

"I'm still a kid, you know. Even a non-conformist Uncle can barely beat a conformist before he grows up, so I'm in trouble."

Out of nowhere, a wind of fire dew blew and gently enveloped him.

Fire dew leaves were dancing in that wind, and the leaves were covered with drops of fire dew.

Fire, drops, wind, leaves.

All the fire dew is absorbed into Vade's body.

Sand seemed to fall from overhead in a flurry, and suddenly the ceiling collapsed.

No, not just the ceiling.

Scaffolding, walls, and everything else is beginning to crumble.

"What? Suddenly?"

Sasha turns her magic eye on the area.

"The ...... Withering Desert is collapsing. ......"

Misha mutters.

"...... deprived of fire dew, the sanctuary can't be maintained ......"

"Hehehe," Vade's laughter echoed.

"It's not just the Withering Desert, but also the Crown Tree Canopy Sphere, the Great Tree Mother Sea, and the Deep Forests. We have finally gathered enough fire dew to meet our needs."

and sanctuaries are the Manifestation of a God's Order

This child is not yet born, but is of the order of birth. I thought it was a message from Militia, asking me to give birth to this child by my authority."

Like a tender mother, Wenzel gazes at Ennesuone.

She said, "I poured all my energy into Ennesuone. And so the order of Ennesuone sprouted, and this budding palace sanctuary, Force Ronal Reef, was born.

"Why did the city come into being when you tried to give birth to Ennesuone?"

Eleonore asks the question.

"The city is the embodiment of the order of Ennesuone, like the Land of Traces possessed by the God of Traces or the Limited World of Nafta.

Thus reality is dependent on fire dew to exist and the loss of any amount of fire dew affects reality to what extent though is dependent on the amount lost however this does not disprove it affecting reality. For example;

Spoiler: Analogy 1

Take the total amount of Fire Dew/Source as nonrenewable energy. This energy is what sustains the world.
Take the brightness of a light bulb as an indicator for the worlds integrity (not in the sense of personality but as stability). Whenever any amount of Fire Dew/ source (using both interchangeably) is destroyed, consumed, leaked out of the world, the light bulb dims. The amount lost is what determines by how much the brightness of the light bulb dims.
Now when this energy falls below a certain level, the light bulb completely goes off indicating the complete loss of integrity and complete destruction of the world.

Spoiler: ANALOGY 2

Thousands of pillars that support a massive structure. The loss of one pillar will not cause the entire structure to crumble but it undoubtedly compromises the stability of the structure

Thus one individual source/ fire dew affects reality.

Proof of Type 1​

---

Now it has been proven that the source influences/governs/affects reality but this gives only type 2 even though governing other type 1 concepts should be enough.
Proof type 1 comes from fire dew predating reality as well as being unaffected by/independent of the destruction of reality.

Predating Reality​

Order itself Predates reality, nothing can exist without Order. Before the world itself is created Order must exist

"Which came first, the world or the creator god Militia?"
"The world. The world existed before Militia was born, and the previous creator god, Elenesia, was already there. When the old world reaches its limits, the creator god perishes. At that time, the source that is close to perishing performs the final creation and gives birth to the next creator god."
It was about their own birth.
Sasha answered easily.
"So let's go back in time to the beginning, shall we? How did the original creator god come to be?"
Sasha was at a loss for an answer.
Militia's mother, the previous creator god Elenesia, had the same answer as Sasha.
However, there was no way to know how the first god - the original creator god - was born.
"I don't know... I can't be sure..."
"Kakaka, sure, sure. It's difficult to investigate. Then what hypothesis can we formulate? Did God come first, or did the world come first?"
Sasha opens her mouth, hitting her head with her hand.
"If anything, I think it was God..."
"Why is that?"
"After all, when the world is first born, if there is no order, the world will collapse. I don't think it will last until God is born by chance."
Without order, the world will perish.
It is obvious that a world without God will not last long.
"Now let us assume that God was born first. Was only the Creator God born, or were other gods born with them?"
Eldemade refers to Misa.
"......I think it is only the Creator God. I don't think it happens very often, even by chance, that many different types of Gods are born at the same time. ......"
"Kakka, good answer. Then, the final conundrum, how did the Creator God come into being?"
[...]
"I don't know if there was a sound, but I am sure there was something. If there was nothing, then nothing would happen. In other words, something must have existed from the beginning for the Creator God to be born."
Eldemade picks up his cane and puts his weight on both hands.
"What does it take to make a popping sound in a world of nothing, detention?"
"Is it the ...... order of sound, ......?　Like the Gospel God?"
"Yes, yes, yes, order!　At least, something like it existed from the beginning, before this world was created. Otherwise, it is hard to imagine that a creator God could have risen. No, no, but we are in trouble if we think so."
Shaking his head from side to side, Eldemade smiles with amusement.
Then, looking forward, he said.
"If order already existed before this world was created, then isn't there something else that exists?"

WN Chapter 484​

As Order needs to exist before reality can and Order cannot function/ exist/ be sustained without fire dew, fire dew existed before reality was created.

Independent of Reality​

Fire Dew exists regardless of reality existing. It naturally pervades the Silver Sea

"So, technically speaking, the deep world is stealing fire dew from the shallow world?"

That understanding is fine, but the fire dew does not belong to anyone. It is an order that is spread throughout the Silver Water Sacred Sea. Fire dew is something that travels across the sea in all sorts of bubbles."

It exists regardless of which bubble it originated from and even if the bubble is destroyed, it simply spreads into the Silver Sea and can later settle in any other bubble

"If the fire dew is lost, life will be lost in the bubble world. Isn't it possible that the residents who were supposed to be reincarnated will be reborn in another world?"

...

"Why don't you bring back the fire dew? They have their lives too."

"What do you mean? Their life ends when they die. It's just a matter of starting a new life in a new world. It's just a different person with the same origin."

...

"Returning fire dew to the bubble world is a foolish act that erases life. Bubbles will eventually disappear. Throwing life into it is like returning a fish that has finally reached the sea to the land again. It may be different from your world's beliefs, but that's the principle of the Silver sea."

Instead of denying me, Ottorlou said gently.

"It's a very lucky thing for the life that fire dew crosses the world. It's a proof that they were blessed by this sea."

If the bubble world will surely perish, then there is certainly a point.

-WN Chapter 502.​

Conclusion​

---

To end things off, I believe I've addressed all issues brought up in the previous thread.

The Source, a fundamental concept of existence, is Fire Dew and Fire Dew Governs, Influences, affects reality. Reality is dependent on fire dew, fire dew predates reality and is independent of it thus it meets all the requirements of type 1 on the CM page.

Independent Universal Concepts: Such concepts are completely independent from the part of reality they govern, except maybe of other concepts of this nature

The old arguments have been removed leaving only this one. As everything has been poured over before, let's keep this short and civil and hopefully under 2 pages.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Agree as previous thread.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

so

"fire dew is the source on earth"

Fire dew is the source of the earth; This is different than a person's individual source, so we have no reason to assume everybody's source would scale to fire dew.

"The root that has been born deepens. That means growth. At the end of the deepening there is an end. The root that has reached the end, however, transforms into a different form. And you will have a new birth."
"However, in fact, her roots became fire dew and crossed the world."

Sources are not innately fire dew; Rather, sources become fire dew. It is basic logic that you cannot become something you already are. Sources and fire few being the same, and statements of such, is just meant to show that fire dew is made of sources (or once was them, or something along those lines).

Not to mention, there's an obvious logical hole here. Fire dew disappearing has significant effects on reality, right? But if someone's source is destroyed, that won't really have a greater impact on the world at large; That single person dies, and the world continues on as normal. We cannot equate fire dew and sources when they so obviously act differently. It also begs the question of how gods can regenerate their sources easily when, if sources were fire dew, their orders would be destroyed and they'd ******* die (because fire dew governs sources, and a lack of fire dew causes order to collapse).

Disagree. This feels like taking a one-off statement and running with it without regards for consistency or logic.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Sources are not innately fire dew; Rather, sources become fire dew. It is basic logic that you cannot become something you already are. Sources and fire few being the same, and statements of such, is just meant to show that fire dew is made of sources (or once was them, or something along those lines).

This qualifies? Did you not say in touha downgrade that concept 1 can't be part from concept type 3 or lower?. You literally argued with that.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

This qualifies? Did you not say in touha downgrade that concept 1 can't be part from concept type 3 or lower?. You literally argued with that.

No? I said type 3 concepts can't govern or create type 1 concepts; Becoming a part of a greater concept isn't either of those. Like how the concept of one apple is type 3, but the concept of all apples is type 2/1. However, that single concept can still be a subset of the broader concept. So fire dew would be the concept of all sources, or at least more than one person's source, but that doesn't change the fact that sources by themselves are type 3.

why the **** do i keep using apples in these analogies

 

[ImmortalDread]

I remember you were arguing over boundaries and names created those (which are part from names logically speaking) and you ******* posted standard that it can't be type 3 for that.

How are you disagreeing with your own logic?

 

[ImmortalDread]

However, that single concept can still be a subset of the broader concept.

So a type 1 concept that governs reality and being independent can still be subset or part from concept type 3?

Now I find it a bit strange how the logic this works.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I remember you were arguing over boundaries and names created those (which are part from names logically speaking) and you ******* posted standard that it can't be type 3 for that.

How are you disagreeing with your own logic?

I'm not. Either refer to my explanation above, or cut it out with this whataboutism bullshit. It happens without fail every time Maou Gakuin is downgraded, and it's pathetic. Now address the points pertaining to your own verse, because I would certainly hope you know more about it than me.

So a type 1 concept that governs reality and being independent can still be subset or part from concept type 3?

Now I find it a bit strange how the logic this works.

...No, you have that completely backwards. Type 3 concepts can be subsets of type 1 concepts.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

No? I said type 3 concepts can't govern or create type 1 concepts; Becoming a part of a greater concept isn't either of those. Like how the concept of one apple is type 3, but the concept of all apples is type 2/1. However, that single concept can still be a subset of the broader concept. So fire dew would be the concept of all sources, or at least more than one person's source, but that doesn't change the fact that sources by themselves are type 3.

why the **** do i keep using apples in these analogies

Destroying one apple doesn't affect concepts of apple in your comments

Here destroying one source will reduce the fire dew of the reality.

Your analogy is false

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Here destroying one source will reduce the fire dew of the reality.

None of the scans I read implied that. Can you show me what you're talking about?

 

[Tatsumi504]

Sources are not innately fire dew; Rather, sources become fire dew. It is basic logic that you cannot become something you already are. Sources and fire few being the same, and statements of such, is just meant to show that fire dew is made of sources (or once was them, or something along those lines).

You weren't in the last thread. Fire dew is the source on earth (world of mortals). If you're alive it exists as the source, if you're not it exists as fire dew

Not to mention, there's an obvious logical hole here. Fire dew disappearing has significant effects on reality, right? But if someone's source is destroyed, that won't really have a greater impact on the world at large; That single person dies, and the world continues on as normal

It doesn't continue as normal, no matter how miniscule or unnoticeable, the total amount in existence has been affected, did you read any of the analogies in the spoiler box?

We cannot equate fire dew and sources when they so obviously act differently.

Fire dew is what leaks out of worlds, Anos subordinate, who reincarnated in a different world, instead of saying "even if the fire dew goes out of the world" he says "even if the roots (source) go out of the world". Characters are already using it interchangeably not to mention Anos outright stating fire dew is the source. The source is what reincarnates. People reincarnating outside their world if fire dew isn't the source goes against the basic principles established in the story so the argument is against you.

It also begs the question of how gods can regenerate their sources easily when, if sources were fire dew, their orders would be destroyed and they'd ******* die (because fire dew governs sources, and a lack of fire dew causes order to collapse)

Ya obviously didn't read the OP did ya? For God's regenerating their source, take a throw back to Jerga. Immortality 8 on a High-godly level. As long as their Order exists they can regenerate.
Where in this entire thing was it mentioned a God's source is what sustains order? The total amount of fire dew in the world is what sustains Order.
It's already established that death/ destruction of a god doesn't destroy order just disrupts it so once again you've brought another moot argument that's already been established and cleared multiple times.

Disagree. This feels like taking a one-off statement and running with it without regards for consistency or logic.

Yeah, i posted multiple scans that show both are the same and it's a one off statement. Try harder please

Next!!!!

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

You weren't in the last thread. Fire dew is the source on earth (world of mortals). If you're alive it exists as the source, if you're not it exists as fire dew

Okay, so this just reaffirms that they're different things and shouldn't be directly compared. Nice going.

It doesn't continue as normal, no matter how miniscule or unnoticeable, the total amount in existence has been affected, did you read any of the analogies in the spoiler box?

No, you need to prove this sort of thing with the source material. No amount of analogies you make will help if they do not match what is actually shown in the verse itself. The fact that one analogy describes fire dew as being affected (even to a miniscule degree) by the destruction of what it governs means it quite explicitly cannot be type 1.

Fire dew is what leaks out of worlds, Anos subordinate, who reincarnated in a different world, instead of saying "even if the fire dew goes out of the world" he says "even if the roots (source) go out of the world". Characters are already using it interchangeably not to mention Anos outright stating fire dew is the source. The source is what reincarnates. People reincarnating outside their world if fire dew isn't the source goes against the basic principles established in the story so the argument is against you.

The source flows out of the world and becomes fire dew. It isn't naturally in that state, otherwise it wouldn't have to become anything. It would just continue existing in its current state. The two may be similar or connected in some way, but it doesn't mean they're identical, 1-to-1 copies of each other.

Ya obviously didn't read the OP did ya? For God's regenerating their source, take a throw back to Jerga. Immortality 8 on a High-godly level. As long as their Order exists they can regenerate.
Where in this entire thing was it mentioned a God's source is what sustains order? The total amount of fire dew in the world is what sustains Order.
It's already established that death/ destruction of a god doesn't destroy order just disrupts it so once again you've brought another moot argument that's already been established and cleared multiple times.

If sources and fire dew are the same, as you claim, then it would naturally follow that the destruction of the source (fire dew) would affect order. Because they're the same, they should have the same effects on reality, but they clearly don't. The fact that the manipulation of fire dew can mess with order, while messing with sources doesn't proves that fire dew =/= sources.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I'm not. Either refer to my explanation above, or cut it out with this whataboutism bullshit.

Why? RvR exists, you can report me if you got offended by my fair argument.

It happens without fail every time Maou Gakuin is downgraded, and it's pathetic. Now address the points pertaining to your own verse, because I would certainly hope you know more about it than me.

Irrelevant. You literally argued and even pasted the standard. Now change my mind how are you not fair?

...No, you have that completely backwards. Type 3 concepts can be subsets of type 1 concepts.

Huh???? Fire dews is CM type 1. I guess there is misunderstanding rn.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Huh???? Fire dews is CM type 1. I guess there is misunderstanding rn.

Fire dew is type 1, yes. Sources are type 3. Sources are a subset of fire dew. Therefore, type 3 is a subset of type 1.

Please tell me you understand this, I really can't make it any simpler....

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

None of the scans I read implied that. Can you show me what you're talking about?

"The existence of the Conformist strengthens the world's fire dew and brings a strong force to the order. One of the seeds of world will possessed by the gods will sprout, and the existence that can be called the will of the world, the World Chief God, will be born."

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Where the **** does this mention destroying one source reducing the fire dew of reality??

 

[ImmortalDread]

Fire dew is type 1, yes. Sources are type 3. Sources are a subset of fire dew. Therefore, type 3 is a subset of type 1.

Please tell me you understand this, I really can't make it any simpler....

Wait wait, no. It's opposite. huh. That's my argument

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I need to go to bed. I'll see if I can't bully some staff into looking at this tomorrow.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Where the **** does this mention destroying one source reducing the fire dew of reality??

Destroying is not only way to get CM type 1. Affecting concepts of CM type 1 can also get that WTF.

A character existence can literally strengthen the reality without even making anything. It's just Passive Existence affecting the reality. You should read what's written in there. Why would destroying matter. CM page states embodying creating and destroying all 3 Qualifies.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Destroying is not only way to get CM type 1. Affecting concepts of CM type 1 can also get that WTF.

A character existence can literally strengthen the reality without even making anything. It's just Passive Existence affecting the reality. You should read what's written in there. Why would destroying matter. CM page states embodying creating and destroying all 3 Qualifies.

My brother in Christ you're the one who brought this up to begin with.

Here destroying one source will reduce the fire dew of the reality.

Also, if destroying just one source is enough to affect fire dew, then it cannot be type 1 as it is not independent of what it governs.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

My brother in Christ you're the one who brought this up to begin with.

There is another scan but I am too lazy anyway this still proves reality itself drastically changing with passive Existence itself.

Also, if destroying just one source is enough to affect fire dew, then it cannot be type 1 as it is not independent of what it governs.

Destroying the source doesn't affect fire dew but it erases the fire dew itself. Concepts type 1 can be erased and that's why even high godly regeneration page has Regeneration from concept type 1. So your argument ain't gonna cut it. Killing someone will make the fire dew /source go outside. It just proves sources are independent.

The scan literally states even if the reality gets destroyed Fire dew of individual flow out and Reincarnated in other reality. Which backs up reality is dependent on Characters but characters fire dew is not dependent on reality.

 

[1st_Virtue_of_Pure_Void]

why the **** do i keep using apples in these analogies

It's a good analogy regardless

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

It's a good analogy regardless

What good analogy?

Affecting one apple won't affect concepts of apple according to her

OP states Affecting one source will affect the fire dew of the reality.

Yeah i wonder how people like you can call it a good analogy.

 

[Godsatoshi23]

I agree with OP, pretty easy to understand that it is type 1 fire dew/source.

 

[Robo432343]

I agree with Reiner.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Also, if destroying just one source is enough to affect fire dew, then it cannot be type 1 as it is not independent of what it governs.

Interesting take. So if I effect CM type 1, CM type 1 is being dependent to me because I could affect it.

According to this, any manipulation to CM type 1 is contradiction to "independence".

You are confusing between "effecting CM type 1 and causing it to cease (take it as cause and effect)" and being "dependent on it".

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

There is another scan but I am too lazy anyway this still proves reality itself drastically changing with passive Existence itself.

Destroying the source doesn't affect fire dew but it erases the fire dew itself. Concepts type 1 can be erased and that's why even high godly regeneration page has Regeneration from concept type 1. So your argument ain't gonna cut it. Killing someone will make the fire dew go outside.

The scan literally states even if the reality gets destroyed Fire dew of individual flow out and Reincarnated in other reality. Which backs up reality is dependent on Characters but characters fire dew is not dependent on reality.

"Fire dew doesn't get affected it just gets erased". Erasing something is affecting it, Elde.

I'm going to bed for real this time.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

"Fire dew doesn't get affected it just gets erased". Erasing something is affecting it, Elde.

I'm going to bed for real this time.

CM type 1 can be erased otherwise Regeneration page wouldn't have CM type 1 based Regeneration.

The scan where a single conformist existence strengthening the order and fire dew proves affecting source affecting fire dew. If that conformist doesn't exists in the reality then that world order and fire dew becomes weak. It's clear cut.

The conformist existence isn't depended on that reality though. He can just move out and Live in another reality. Ronzcrunz lives Seventh Elenesia it's not even his own Reality/world. There are many people from different worlds lives in there.

Which shows world needs confimists existence meanwhile conformist doesn't need world. It's literally what it means to be independent from the reality they govern.

 

[ImmortalDread]

"Fire dew doesn't get affected it just gets erased". Erasing something is affecting it, Elde.

I'm going to bed for real this time.

Tbh I need to give you right for this. Elde is so bad at English

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Tbh I need to give you right for this. Elde is so bad at English

CM type 1 can be erased otherwise Regeneration page wouldn't have CM type 1 based Regeneration.

The scan where a single conformist existence strengthening the order and fire dew proves affecting source affecting fire dew. If that conformist doesn't exists in the reality then that world order and fire dew becomes weak. It's clear cut.

The conformist existence isn't depended on that reality though. He can just move out and Live in another reality. Ronzcrunz lives Seventh Elenesia it's not even his own Reality/world. There are many people from different worlds lives in there.

Which shows world needs confimists existence meanwhile conformist doesn't need world. It's literally what it means to be independent from the reality they govern.

But this should be enough

 

[Tatsumi504]

Okay, so this just reaffirms that they're different things and shouldn't be directly compared. Nice going.

No it doesn't reaffirm anything. Life or death just differentiates what state it exists in. Matter is capable of existing in 3 different states, solid, liquid and gas. Does H²O being Ice, water or vapor mean it's no longer H²O?
Notice how this scan notes there's no presence of Life in this world?

Currently, it is midnight in Hypholia.

Considering that it is the same here, it is not unnatural that the sky is dark, but there is not a single light on the ground.

No, on the contrary, there was not a single sign of human presence.

The presence of life was infinitesimally rare.

"It's on the verge of ...... perishing,......it's probably lost most of its fire dew. Not uncommon in the bubble world, I hear."

Constant fighting, people destroying each other affects the total amount.

No, you need to prove this sort of thing with the source material. No amount of analogies you make will help if they do not match what is actually shown in the verse itself.

Is already proven with the source material lol. Eques continued to steal fire dew secretly such that it wasn't noticed by the gods. This brought the world ever closer to destruction such that the current creator god will sacrifice themselves to create a new creator that'll recreate the world and try to find the reason for the destruction. The chapter with Militia's birth shows the world being barren and devoid of life. The militia world is currently 700 million years old and this process of recreating the world has been repeated countless times and they only noticed this because of Anos.
Proof that any miniscule amount affects reality? 700,000,000 years worth of fire dew Eques stole is far less than the amount Vade stole which immediately caused Order to begin collapsing. Still Eques gradually stealing a little amount of Fire Dew Each time gradually brought the world closer to destruction

The fact that one analogy describes fire dew as being affected (even to a miniscule degree) by the destruction of what it governs means it quite explicitly cannot be type 1.

No Analogy described it that way wtf? Read it again.

The source flows out of the world and becomes fire dew. It isn't naturally in that state, otherwise it wouldn't have to become anything. It would just continue existing in its current state. The two may be similar or connected in some way, but it doesn't mean they're identical, 1-to-1 copies of each other.

Never, in any instance does the story ever say sources flow out of the world. It is always Fire Dew that flows out. Life & Death is what differentiates what state it exists in. They are identical 1-to-1 copies. Like i said, temperature affecting what state of matter something exists in doesn't stop those states from being the same.

If sources and fire dew are the same, as you claim, then it would naturally follow that the destruction of the source (fire dew) would affect order. Because they're the same, they should have the same effects on reality, but they clearly don't. The fact that the manipulation of fire dew can mess with order, while messing with sources doesn't proves that fire dew =/= sources.

Once again, total amount ≠ individual fire dew. Destruction of the source does affect Order but 1 God's source is not the only thing governing Order, it's the total amount and any reduction in that amount weakens Order.
It does prove it especially when it's explicitly stated that "Fire Dew is the Source on Earth (World of Mortals)"

 

[Tatsumi504]

I agree with Reiner.

What am I? Chopped liver?

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

What am I? Chopped liver?

Reina agreed with this same Arguments previously. So put robo as agreed.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I am neutral btw.

 

[Dog3352]

Why did you take things from body, mind and soul? According to Dark's explanation, that also qualifies for type 1 or 2 concepts.

 

[PrinceofPein]

1. Fire dew is source as in the name is the same, but a single source is not the same as the collective source that governs order. (So in the course of this thread when I use the term source I am referring to individual sources but when i say fire dew, I mean the collection of all the source in the world)
2. "As Order needs to exist before reality can and Order cannot function/ exist/ be sustained without fire dew, fire dew existed before reality was created."
this is wrong, as you need a living being god or human to have source or fire dew, so if they do not exist before order then you cannot assume that fire dew exists before reality did
3. So all I see is verse mechanics, cause sources do not behave like type 1 concept, only fire dew has the feat for type 1 and it even has contradictions.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

1. Fire dew is source as in the name is the same, but a single source is not the same as the collective source that governs order. (So in the course of this thread when I use the term source I am referring to individual sources but when i say fire dew, I mean the collection of all the source in the world)

Quantity doesn't mean a thing quality what means everything.

Deeper layers world has more fire dew than shallow layer world doesn't mean shallow layer world doesn't have CM type 1.

Each individual has source as Fire dew on small quantity but Quality is same as what complete fire dew does.

2. "As Order needs to exist before reality can and Order cannot function/ exist/ be sustained without fire dew, fire dew existed before reality was created."
this is wrong, as you need a living being god or human to have source or fire dew, so if they do not exist before order then you cannot assume that fire dew exists before reality did

Oh boy I guess you didn't bothered to read the OP. Tatsumi scan literally states God and Order came first even before the world/reality came to exists.

Creator God already existed Each gods has sources of thier own. So God and Source/fire dew already existed even before Reality.

Bruh atleast read the complete OP.

3. So all I see is verse mechanics, cause sources do not behave like type 1 concept, only fire dew has the feat for type 1 and it even has contradictions.

Sources do behave like Type 1 concept destroying the reality won't destroy the sources they would just move on to different realities as fire dew.

There is no contradiction it's just you need to understand how Source works. You gonna actually read the OP. Or I need to specifically copy paste the scan posted in the OP?

Without Creator God reality Wouldn't even come to exists.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Quantity doesn't mean a thing quality what means everything.
Deeper layers world has more fire dew than shallow layer world doesn't mean shallow layer world doesn't have CM type 1.
Each individual has source as Fire dew on small quantity but Quality is same as what complete fire dew does.

not my argument, my argument is that sources do not behave like fire dew simple and you have not proven that

Oh boy I guess you didn't bothered to read the OP. Tatsumi scan literally states God and Order came first even before the world/reality came to exists.
Creator God already existed Each gods has sources of thier own. So God and Source/fire dew already existed even before Reality.
Bruh atleast read the complete OP.

I will probably stop replying you after this, since you do not know how to speak

"I don't know if there was a sound, but I am sure there was something. If there was nothing, then nothing would happen. In other words, something must have existed from the beginning for the Creator God to be born."
Eldemade picks up his cane and puts his weight on both hands.
"What does it take to make a popping sound in a world of nothing, detention?"
"Is it the ...... order of sound, ......?　Like the Gospel God?"
"Yes, yes, yes, order!　At least, something like it existed from the beginning, before this world was created. Otherwise, it is hard to imagine that a creator God could have risen. No, no, but we are in trouble if we think so."
Shaking his head from side to side, Eldemade smiles with amusement.
Then, looking forward, he said.
"If order already existed before this world was created, then isn't there something else that exists?"

if order exists before reality and order needs fire dew to exists or be sustained, that is a contradiction, do not go saying that I did not read the OP cause I did.

Sources do behave like Type 1 concept destroying the reality won't destroy the sources they would just move on to different realities as fire dew.
There is no contradiction it's just you need to understand how Source works. You gonna actually read the OP. Or I need to specifically copy paste the scan posted in the OP?
Without Creator God reality Wouldn't even come to exists.

And without Order the creator God will not exist, so yes there is a contradiction, I read the OP very well.
Anyway that is that.

The main argument is that, sources govern individual human, the total amount of it governs world. That is the distinction

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

not my argument, my argument is that sources do not behave like fire dew simple and you have not proven that

It does you were talking about Quantity not quality.

I will probably stop replying you after this, since you do not know how to speak

if order exists before reality and order needs fire dew to exists or be sustained, that is a contradiction, do not go saying that I did not read the OP cause I did.

Scan literally states Creator God and Order both come into existence. Magic borns from source. She can create fire dew from her power. So i don't see what you mean by Contradiction. Type 1 concepts can be created.

She and her Source/ fire dew existed before World in a nothingness white void. She created other orders. I don't care if you reply or not doesn't change the fact you are completely wrong here.

And without Order the creator God will not exist, so yes there is a contradiction, I read the OP very well.
Anyway that is that.

The main argument is that, sources govern individual human, the total amount of it governs world. That is the distinction

My above argument literally proves why it's not Contradicted because Creator God fire dew existed even before Reality was born which is enough to support Order.

 

[PrinceofPein]

It does you were talking about Quantity not quality.

No I am saying they do different things

Scan literally states Creator God and Order both come into existence. Magic borns from source. She can create fire dew from her power. So i don't see what you mean by Contradiction. Type 1 concepts can be created.

"I don't know if there was a sound, but I am sure there was something. If there was nothing, then nothing would happen. In other words, something must have existed from the beginning for the Creator God to be born."
Eldemade picks up his cane and puts his weight on both hands.
"What does it take to make a popping sound in a world of nothing, detention?"
"Is it the ...... order of sound, ......?　Like the Gospel God?"
"Yes, yes, yes, order!　At least, something like it existed from the beginning, before this world was created

Literally said something must have existed before creator God, and then it said Order
it did not say they both came into existence, please read the scans properly.

She and her Source/ fire dew existed before World in a nothingness white void. She created other orders. I don't care if you reply or not doesn't change the fact you are completely wrong here.

I am not wrong, literally brought scans, that said what I claimed

My above argument literally proves why it's not Contradicted because Creator God fire dew existed even before Reality was born

And where is your scan?
cause this goes against you

"I don't know if there was a sound, but I am sure there was something. If there was nothing, then nothing would happen. In other words, something must have existed from the beginning for the Creator God to be born."
Eldemade picks up his cane and puts his weight on both hands.
"What does it take to make a popping sound in a world of nothing, detention?"
"Is it the ...... order of sound, ......?　Like the Gospel God?"
"Yes, yes, yes, order!　At least, something like it existed from the beginning, before this world was created