Upgrade Source/ Root/ Origin in Maou Gakuin to type 1 concept, Again Pt. 2

[Reiner04]

I think the general issue here is that, since fire dew governs order, then the destruction of sources would also affect order. However, it does not do that, so there is a clear difference between what fire dew is capable of and what sources are capable of, which should be enough to treat them differently.

Governing different objects do not change the concept existentially and substantially.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Governing different objects do not change the concept existentially and substantially.

It proves they aren't the exact same thing, so we can't really compare them.

 

[Tatsumi504]

I think the general issue here is that, since fire dew governs order, then the destruction of sources would also affect order. However, it does not do that, so there is a clear difference between what fire dew is capable of and what sources are capable of, which should be enough to treat them differently.

Wtf? How many times does the same thing beed to be sent

The earth is cracked and broken by countless fissures.

The hole is so deep that one cannot see the bottom, and the sand flows down like a waterfall.

The hole was widening, and even as this was happening, new cracks were appearing.

Losing fire dew, losing order, the withering desert is coming to an end.

"Hmmm. They have been very harsh with us again. This law garden is the foundation of order. If this place is destroyed, who knows what will happen to the azure skies of the gods?"

"What are you talking about? We know that there is the source of the world's destruction, but we have to find out where it is, don't we?"

Sasha said in a panic.

Misha was staring at the withering desert with her magic eyes.

"We don't have much time."

"No, it's obvious. You said that the total amount of magic in the world keeps decreasing."

I say as I fly over the withering desert.

Misha nodded next to me.

"The order of destruction is equal to the order of creation. If, in spite of this, the amount that is destroyed is not created, then there is a possibility that magical power is being stolen somewhere. To paraphrase this fundamental law garden order, fire dew."

Looking around, I spotted something in the dunes.

It was a mirage of trees.

It is the entrance to Dilfred's divine realm, the Deep Forest Labyrinth.

The lush fire dew leaves and large trees were about to die.

The sanctuary must also be coming to an end.

I landed on the barely remaining foothold.

"Since the beginning of time, fire dew had been deprived. Neither the four Juri gods nor Militia, the creator god, noticed the decrease in the fire dew. It is a blind spot because the divine race is an order."

Standing in front of the mirage, I peered into its abyss with my violet-tinged magical eyes.

"Life is born, deepens, eventually comes to an end, and undergoes a change. When is the time to take away the magic power without the gods realizing it?"

Misha blinked, and Sasha's gaze turned grim as if in thought.

"Whether it is birth, deepening, demise, or transformation, there is no way that the four deities of the tree that govern each of them are unaware that they are taking away magical power at any of these times."

No matter how you think about it, if the magic power is reduced, the balance will not be maintained.

But--

"There is a realm in this law garden that is beyond the reach of the divine eye of the Four Tree Gods."

Stepping forward, I put my hand in the mirage.

"The light will increase to conquer the light, and the light will conquer the light."

"Oh, ......," Sasha opened her mouth.

"The root approaching destruction is increasing our magical power. ......?"

I nod.

"The person who is perishing has no way of knowing how much his or her magic power will increase. Of course, nothing will happen on the spot. However, if the magic power that should not be taken away is taken away, it will run out and disappear at some point."

"At the time of birth, at the time of deepening, at the time of demise, or at the time of transformation, the slightest deviation that occurred there will go around and one day bring about the destruction of the world."

"Therefore, destruction and creation are not balanced."

"Dilfred said, beyond this mirage, there is a chasm. It is neither a deep forest nor a dead desert. But it is the deep forest and the withering desert."

At the end of deepening, there is an end.

How far is deepening, and where does it end?

Perhaps the deepening and the demise overlap.

It is both a deepening and an end. Because it is the destination of deepening, the magical power increases tremendously, and because it is the beginning of the end, it is fragile and easily destroyed.

"The only divine race that can see the end of deepening is Dilfred, the god of deepening."

"However, because it is an end that goes against his own order, his divine eye cannot reach the chasm between the two."

"And Anahem, the god of demise, has no divine eye to gaze into the depths of deepening."

"Those who had taken the fire dew took advantage of this blind spot. No, perhaps from the very beginning, the world was set up for it."

I jumped into the mirage.

Misha and Sasha followed.

A brief reprieve, less than a second.

The light increases to destroy the light, and the light conquers the destruction of the light.

My magical eye, which has seen this moment many times before, should be able to see the depths of the abyss of the divine world, the depths of this Law garden.

Perhaps even Misha and Sasha.

A moment later, I caught a glimmer of light and reached for it.

My body was enveloped in a dazzling radiance, and the landscape suddenly changed.
Empty.

An endless sea of clouds.

Our bodies were falling.

Is this ......?"

"The bottom of the abyss in the Fundamental Law Garden?"

Sasha and Misha say.

A lot of fire dew was falling in the sky, dancing like fireflies, just like us.

The slightest deviation that occurs in the source will one day vring about world destruction.
Repeat that shit of sources not affecting reality again

Also, it feels odd to me to scale an individual object to an amalgamation of many of those objects, if that makes sense

An amalgamation of many of them? Gradual loss of these things is leading reality ever closer to destruction. The influence is there. If the amount of fire dew needed to sustain order is 100 and 1 is subtracted from it, reality is now 1% closer to being destroyed. Doesn't matter how miniscule the effect is, fact remains reality has been affected.

I don't think we just assume that a subset of a type 1 concept is also type 1; Would we assume that because the concept of all apples in the world is type 1, that a subset of that (the concept of 1 apple) is also type 1? I've been led to believe that isn't the case, anyways.

Where is it said that the source is a subset of fire dew? Multiple scans say they're the same. Take your headcanon elsewhere

I did want to bring up that sources are changed somewhat by what they govern. A source regenerates the body based on how it "remembers" it, so any alteration to the body would by extension alter the source (albeit only slightly).

Lmao. Changed where? The source remembers the outline of the body. How does changing the body then affect the source?
The source remembers the body's original outline. Even if this were true, this isn't altering the source, it's altering a memory inside the source not the source itself and no, this assertion is incorrect as hell. If altering the body alters the memory in the source, why are people who are blown to smithereens not resurrected as chunks of meat? Why was zepes not resurrected as a zombie after Anos turned him into one?

 

[Reiner04]

It proves they aren't the exact same thing, so we can't really compare them.

It's the story itself comparing them, so we should be unless it's proven that they're existentially different and aren't Universal concepts, governing different objects doesn't mean anything when their fundamentals are same in all terms.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Wtf? How many times does the same thing beed to be sent

The slightest deviation that occurs in the source will one day vring about world destruction.
Repeat that shit of sources not affecting reality again

This entire bit of text is about fire dew though... I know fire dew affects reality, but does the loss of a single person's source do the same?

An amalgamation of many of them? Gradual loss of these things is leading reality ever closer to destruction. The influence is there. If the amount of fire dew needed to sustain order is 100 and 1 is subtracted from it, reality is now 1% closer to being destroyed. Doesn't matter how miniscule the effect is, fact remains reality has been affected.

See above. This is about fire dew itself, while individual sources don't do this. Are there scans of a character getting their source destroyed, and reality falling apart or getting damaged as a result?

Where is it said that the source is a subset of fire dew? Multiple scans say they're the same. Take your headcanon elsewhere

If fire dew is the collective sources of many people after death, then one source would be a subset of it. That's just basic logic.

Lmao. Changed where? The source remembers the outline of the body. How does changing the body then affect the source?
The source remembers the body's original outline. Even if this were true, this isn't altering the source, it's altering a memory inside the source not the source itself and no, this assertion is incorrect as hell. If altering the body alters the memory in the source, why are people who are blown to smithereens not resurrected as chunks of meat? Why was zepes not resurrected as a zombie after Anos turned him into one?

The inverse could be said as well, where if the "memory" of what a person was never changes, why aren't they resurrected as newborns when they die? It's clear that the memories the source stores have to change every once in a while. Also, if the memories exist inside the source, they are by default a part of it.

 

[Reiner04]

This entire bit of text is about fire dew though... I know fire dew affects reality, but does the loss of a single person's source do the same?

If you can prove that source is a personal concept, then sure.

 

[Reiner04]

Type 1 and 2 are Universal concepts while Type 3 are personal, source is equal to Type 2 and 1, so that's that.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Type 1 and 2 are Universal concepts while Type 3 are personal, source is equal to Type 2 and 1, so that's that.

If it doesn't display the properties of type 1 or 2 concepts, then the comparison should not be given much weight.

If you can prove that source is a personal concept, then sure.

did you miss the previous thread or-

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

If fire dew is the collective sources of many people after death, then one source would be a subset of it. That's just basic logic.

Quantity and Quality are different things. That's Basic Logic. Keeping one drop of water in separate cup and 100ml in another cup doens't change the property of water.

 

[Tatsumi504]

It proves they aren't the exact same thing, so we can't really compare them.

It's the story itself comparing them, so we should be unless it's proven that they're existentially different and aren't Universal concepts, governing different objects doesn't mean anything when their fundamentals are same in all terms.

How does a concept governing two things in the first place disprove anything? Nousgalia's order governs other orders, order of creation governs life and creation, destruction governs death, destruction, the end of all things etc

 

[Theglassman12]

@Reiner Based on what, that they're all combined into becoming a fire dew? Something that has completely different scale in it's governing compared to an individual source which only governs a personal thing at best?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

How does a concept governing two things in the first place disprove anything? Nousgalia's order governs other orders, order of creation governs life and creation, destruction governs death, destruction, the end of all things etc

Why would we assume that one source, which is only ever shown to govern one person's existence, and fire dew, which governs other concepts like order (which includes multiple other concepts like life and death), should be the same type? They clearly do not govern the same things; So while they are both made of sources, we can't easily compare them.

 

[Reiner04]

@Reiner Based on what, that they're all combined into becoming a fire dew? Something that has completely different scale in it's governing compared to an individual source which only governs a personal thing at best?

I am actually more of concerned about if it's a personal concept to begin with, personal concept aren't about something governing single object, glass, but rather it's about the concept being specific to single person, let's say there is chair in front of me, regardless of how many different chair you'll make, different types of them you will make, they all will fall under same concept of chair. But if there is a concept specific to single person, let's say concept of pillow, then that will be pillow only for one person, it won't be pillow for another as it's a personal concept.

 

[PrinceofPein]

It doesn't need millions to govern type 1 concepts, the amount is what sustains them. One individual fire dew not sustaining reality doesn't disprove the fact that individual fire dew bears influence over reality.

not just that, order also govern sources, e.g. life and death and also reincarnation e.t.c.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I am actually more of concerned about if it's a personal concept to begin with, personal concept aren't about something governing single object, glass, but rather it's about the concept being specific to single person, let's say there is chair in front of me, regardless of how many different chair you'll make, they all will fall under same concept of chair. But if there is a concept specific to single person, let's say concept of pillow, then that will be pillow only for one person, it won't be pillow for another as it's a personal concept.

Well, for sources, there exists only one source for each person, and it is what makes them who they are. There are no instances of someone's source getting destroyed and a separate person being harmed by it. Sources are exclusive to the individual they govern, so based on your description it seems like they would be personal concepts (to you, at least).

not just that, order also govern sources, e.g. life and death and also reincarnation e.t.c.

This is a good point, actually. If order governs individual sources, and fire dew governs order, that is direct proof that the scale of the two is incomparable.

 

[Tatsumi504]

This entire bit of text is about fire dew though... I know fire dew affects reality, but does the loss of a single person's source do the same?

That entire text was talking about eques stealing magic power from peoples sources.

If fire dew is the collective sources of many people after death, then one source would be a subset of it. That's just basic logic.

Each person has their own fire dew.

The inverse could be said as well, where if the "memory" of what a person was never changes, why aren't they resurrected as newborns when they die? It's clear that the memories the source stores have to change every once in a while. Also, if the memories exist inside the source, they are by default a part of it.

Still the body remembering the original outline. That memory being updated as they grow changes nothing.

 

[Reiner04]

Well, for sources, there exists only one source for each person, and it is what makes them who they are. There are no instances of someone's source getting destroyed and a separate person being harmed by it. Sources are exclusive to the individual they govern, so based on your description it seems like they would be personal concepts (to you, at least).

As long as source defines them, makes them who they're, all of their incarnations are bound to the same source but different copies, it's literally fits the description of what Universal concept is.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

As long as source defines them, makes them who they're, all of their incarnations are bound to the same source but different copies, it's literally fits the description of what Universal concept is.

This is what I am talking about. Yeah Reina you perfectly understand how sources works.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

That entire text was talking about eques stealing magic power from peoples sources.

The text explicitly says fire dew.

As long as source defines them, makes them who they're, all of their incarnations are bound to the same source but different copies, it's literally fits the description of what Universal concept is.

Except it still only governs that single person. It governs your future incarnations, sure, but those are still "you", and not separate things governed by the same concept. At that point it's just range.

 

[Reiner04]

The text explicitly says fire dew.


Except it still only governs that single person. It governs your future incarnations, sure, but those are still "you", and not separate things governed by the same concept. At that point it's just range.

Type 2 concept govern single thing as well, concept of circle governs circle, that's not what personal or Universal concept means to say the least.

 

[Tatsumi504]

not just that, order also govern sources, e.g. life and death and also reincarnation e.t.c.

It doesn't govern sources. Didn't i address this in the last thread? Creation and destruction govern conventional life and death.

Governing reincarnation is not governing sources. Reincarnation is the cycle of fire dew in the fundamental laws garden.
Fire Dew water flows from the Great Tree Mother Sea to the Deep forest labyrinth where it is absorbed by the trees and turned into Fire Dew leaves. The leaves are then blown by the wind into the Withering Desert where they are burnt and turned into Fire Dew sparks and and smoke. The smoke then flows into the Tree Canopy Celestial Sphere where it is converted into Fire Dew wind. The wind then blows into the Great Tree Mother Sea where it's condensed and rains down into the Great Tree Mother Sea and the cycle keeps repeating. This cycle is what reincarnation is.

 

[Reiner04]

Anyway, Source is definitely not personal concept as it's not one's own made concept that do not exist for other neither exist differently under different concept, no. Source for Anos defines him, makes him who he is, and all of his infinite incarnations are objects under same source, Anos is Anos not just under his own mind but for everyone else. That makes his concept Universal.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Anyway, Source is definitely not personal concept as it's not one's own made concept that do not exist for other neither exist differently under different concept, no. Source for Anos defines him, makes him who he is, and all of his infinite incarnations are objects under same source, Anos is Anos not just under his own mind but for everyone else. That makes his concept Universal.

Name one other person besides Anos that Anos' source governs. If you can't do that, then sources being universal concepts has no basis.

 

[Reiner04]

Name one other person besides Anos that Anos' source governs. If you can't do that, then sources being universal concepts has no basis.

Name one other object that is not circle but governed by concept of circle.

 

[Tatsumi504]

The text explicitly says fire dew.

Did you just basically confirm you didn't read it?

"Life is born, deepens, eventually comes to an end, and undergoes a change. When is the time to take away the magic power without the gods realizing it?"
[...]
No matter how you think about it, if the magic power is reduced, the balance will not be maintained.
[...]
"The light will increase to conquer the light, and the light will conquer the light."
[...]
"The root approaching destruction is increasing our magical power. ......?"
[...]
"The person who is perishing has no way of knowing how much his or her magic power will increase. Of course, nothing will happen on the spot. However, if the magic power that should not be taken away is taken away, it will run out and disappear at some point."
[...]
"At the time of birth, at the time of deepening, at the time of demise, or at the time of transformation, the slightest deviation that occurred there will go around and one day bring about the destruction of the world."

Read, it's something very easy to do. Me deciding to post half a chapter doesn't change the main thing the chapter is referring to

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Name one other object that is not circle but governed by concept of circle.

Name one other person besides Anos that Anos' source governs. If you can't do that, then sources being universal concepts has no basis.

You better Answer Reina question.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Did you just basically confirm you didn't read it?

Read, it's something very easy to do. Me deciding to post half a chapter doesn't change the main thing the chapter is referring to

Only one of these mentions the source. However...

"Losing fire dew, losing order, the withering desert is coming to an end."

"Since the beginning of time, fire dew had been deprived. Neither the four Juri gods nor Militia, the creator god, noticed the decrease in the fire dew. It is a blind spot because the divine race is an order."

Seems pretty clear to me this passage is about fire dew.

Name one other object that is not circle but governed by concept of circle.

What does this even have to do with what I just said?

 

[PrinceofPein]

It doesn't govern sources. Didn't i address this in the last thread? Creation and destruction govern conventional life and death.

Governing reincarnation is not governing sources. Reincarnation is the cycle of fire dew in the fundamental laws garden.
Fire Dew water flows from the Great Tree Mother Sea to the Deep forest labyrinth where it is absorbed by the trees and turned into Fire Dew leaves. The leaves are then blown by the wind into the Withering Desert where they are burnt and turned into Fire Dew sparks and and smoke. The smoke then flows into the Tree Canopy Celestial Sphere where it is converted into Fire Dew wind. The wind then blows into the Great Tree Mother Sea where it's condensed and rains down into the Great Tree Mother Sea and the cycle keeps repeating. This cycle is what reincarnation is.

literally the same thing, it allows sources to come back to life does it not?

"If the fire dew is lost, life will be lost in the bubble world. Isn't it possible that the residents who were supposed to be reincarnated will be reborn in another world?"
...
"Why don't you bring back the fire dew? They have their lives too."

"What do you mean? Their life ends when they die. It's just a matter of starting a new life in a new world. It's just a different person with the same origin."
...
"Returning fire dew to the bubble world is a foolish act that erases life. Bubbles will eventually disappear. Throwing life into it is like returning a fish that has finally reached the sea to the land again. It may be different from your world's beliefs, but that's the principle of the Silver sea."

Instead of denying me, Ottorlou said gently.

"It's a very lucky thing for the life that fire dew crosses the world. It's a proof that they were blessed by this sea."

If the bubble world will surely perish, then there is certainly a point.

“Of course I am... I’m Diego Kanon Ijeiska, bearer of Hero Kanon’s
source...and I shall be the one to defeat you demons and save the world!”
“I don’t believe that. Reincarnation changes people. Memories are lost
along the way. But deep down, those people are still just the same. You are
nothing like Hero Kanon. Your very nature is ugly and distorted.”

Also you literally said in your first CRT that order of reincarnation governs sources, returning them into the cycle

Name one other object that is not circle but governed by concept of circle.

You’re not making any sense,” Sasha insisted. “Theoretically, that might
work if there were copies of both of us, but where would we find those? Are you
saying there’s a spell that can create an exact copy of someone?”
“Unfortunately, no amount of magic can duplicate a person,” I admitted.
“Our sources are unique to each of us; only one exists in this world.”

I do not care about both of you argument but this is false equivalence, there is not just a single circle in the world there are infinite, while there is only one anos.
Now this reminds me of a thread I want to make.

 

[Reiner04]

What does this even have to do with what I just said?

You asked me to give you name of different person other than Anos to whom Anos concept (Source) giverns. What could have been the best answer?

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I do not care about both of you argument but this is false equivalence, there is not just a single circle in the world there are infinite, while there is only one anos.
Now this reminds me of a thread I want to make.

There are infinite incarnations of Version of Anos so stop. That's still a variation. There is a difference between incarnations and Reincarnation. Reincarnation can get back your memory but not incarnations. Incarnations would make Anos a different person but same fundamental concepts.

 

[Reiner04]

I do not care about both of you argument but this is false equivalence, there is not just a single circle in the world there are infinite, while there is only one anos.
Now this reminds me of a thread I want to make.

I mean, why Amount matters once again? You can destroy all other circles, concept of circle will still remain concept, that's all there is to it, numbers do not define Universal concept in the first place, they're just what they're, concept. Personal concepts are hive minded things different from the source, also, one source governs infinite incarnations and affects all of them at once anyway.

 

[Reiner04]

Concept of Anos will govern Anos, no matter how many of them there are, same as concept of circle governs circle, no matter how many of them there are, wait... We are talking about Type 1 right? Then even if there are none, concept of circle and concept of Anos will be there, different from personal concepts.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I mean, why Amount matters once again? You can destroy all other circles, concept of circle will still remain concept, that's all there is to it, numbers do not define Universal concept in the first place, they're just what they're, concept. Personal concepts are hive minded things different from the source, also, one source governs infinite incarnations and affects all of them at once anyway.

except it is still the same anos, it just governs him forever literally, and no one can truly die unless their source is dead, if they die an earthly death, the source brings them back as a baby, it is not so hard to see that is a personal thing.

Anyway I will not be getting into arguments that are not my concern

Concept of Anos will govern Anos, no matter how many of them there are, same as concept of circle governs circle, no matter how many of them there are, wait... We are talking about Type 1 right? Then even if there are none, concept of circle and concept of Anos will be there, different from personal concepts.

And there is only one anos at a time

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

except it is still the same anos, it just governs him forever literally, and no one can truly die unless their source is dead, if they die an earthly death, the source brings them back as a baby, it is not so hard to see that is a personal thing.

Anyway I will not be getting into arguments that are not my concern

It's not Anos is same throughout his incarnations. Anos Previous life was implied to be Amur who is not even from Militia World which the story progresses and a different person. Not to mention Anos 2000 years was a demon currently he born as a human. Don't see where he is same throughout his incarnations.

 

[Reiner04]

except it is still the same anos, it just governs him forever literally, and no one can truly die unless their source is dead, if they die an earthly death, the source brings them back as a baby, it is not so hard to see that is a personal thing.

Anyway I will not be getting into arguments that are not my concern

Because it is not a personal, pain. Personal concepts are hive minded can be different for me than another in the sense that if there is chair in front of me then it may not be chair for you, my concept for chair may exist only for me, none else, no one else will see the chair as chair. That's what it meant to be personal concept, there can't be any duplicates, is Anos Anos only for himself? No, Anos is Anos for everyone, his being concept is not limited to his own mind.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Because it is not a personal, pain. Personal concepts are hive minded can be different for me than another in the sense that if there is chair in front of me then it may not be chair for you, my concept for chair may exist only for me, none else, no one else will see the chair as chair. That's what it meant to be personal concept, there can't be any duplicates, is Anos Anos only for himself? No, Anos is Anos for everyone, his being concept is not limited to his own mind.

Anos is still anos but again the scans

You’re not making any sense,” Sasha insisted. “Theoretically, that might
work if there were copies of both of us, but where would we find those? Are you
saying there’s a spell that can create an exact copy of someone?”
“Unfortunately, no amount of magic can duplicate a person,” I admitted.
“Our sources are unique to each of us; only one exists in this world.”

“Of course I am... I’m Diego Kanon Ijeiska, bearer of Hero Kanon’s
source...and I shall be the one to defeat you demons and save the world!”
“I don’t believe that. Reincarnation changes people. Memories are lost
along the way. But deep down, those people are still just the same.

See they lose their memories and sometimes power, but they are still the same

 

[Reiner04]

Anos is still anos but again the scans


See they lose their memories and sometimes power, but they are still the same

That's what the point is, Anos will always remain Anos, not for just himself but for everyone, because concept of Anos that defines him exist. Same as Circle will be circle, not for me but for everyone, our sense of circle is bound to concept of circle.

 

[PrinceofPein]

That's what the point is, Anos will always remain Anos, not for just himself but for everyone, because concept of Anos that defines him exist. Same as Circle will be circle, not for me but for everyone, our sense of circle is bound to concept of circle.

again false equivalence, there are infinite circles there is only one anos at a time.
Anyway time to play chess

 

[Reiner04]

again false equivalence, there are infinite circles there is only one anos at a time.
Anyway time to play chess

A well placed pawn is more powerful than a king and Type 1 concepts do not depends on objects existence, take it one or 100.

 

[Tatsumi504]

literally the same thing, it allows sources to come back to life does it not?

No, the series very clearly differentiates between normal death and true death. True death is source destruction. It allows people to come back to life from normal death.

Also you literally said in your first CRT that order of reincarnation governs sources, returning them into the cycle

I was referencing null's statement of the source not being independent of an individual and i stated, that it is because of the order of reincarnation that it happens. Reincarnation is the cycle like i told you. If i phrased it as Order governing sources then that's a failure in my ability to explain.