Maou Gakuin Source/ Root Type 1 Concept: Round 2

[Reiner04]

Okay done reading all that, So as far as scan says, Firedew = the source? Not going argue technicalities here as authors thing, but the arguements I am seeing here is that source governs individual and Firedew to all, why does it matter? A materialistic body or their amount doesn't define the nature of concept, not in Type 1 when they're specifically independent of the reality they govern take it to single being or to all of reality, type 1 concepts are independent of them and can exist even w/o them, if firedew is equals to source then be it. Type 3 will only be given if they're not type 1 or 2. Using personal concept arguement is wrong since it based off default that in most cases verse don't treat an concept governing individual equals to the source of all reality.

How fiction treats things matters more than how standards do as standards cannot cover all kind exceptions anyway. I agree as it seems it's how verse treating things.

 

[Dog3352]

Okay done reading all that, So as far as scan says, Firedew = the source? Not going argue technicalities here as authors thing, but the arguements I am seeing here is that source governs individual and Firedew to all, why does it matter? A materialistic body or their amount doesn't define the nature of concept, not in Type 1 when they're specifically independent of the reality they govern take it to single being or to all of reality, type 1 concepts are independent of them and can exist even w/o them, if firedew is equals to source then be it. Type 3 will only be given if they're not type 1 or 2. Using personal concept arguement is wrong since it based off default that in most cases verse don't treat an concept governing individual equals to the source of all reality.

How fiction treats things matters more than how standards do as standards cannot cover all kind exceptions anyway. I agree as it seems it's how verse treating things.

There are certain people who fail to realize that the concept can be to be type 1 or 2 even if it is just governing the individual, Glass and others think that one must have a relationship with universal reality to be type 1 or 2, even if one already has one admin who explained that it's not like that, but that's ok, tomorrow he'll come and take a look at the topic, and if we're lucky, maybe he'll explain this misunderstanding of needing to affect or is it related to universal reality to be type 1 or 2 .

 

[ImmortalDread]

Who said it needs to be universal reality?

 

[Dog3352]

Who said it needs to be universal reality?

Not exactly in these words (universal reality), but the reason for disagreement is misunderstandings about the explanation of the CM, saying that because he governs only one person or because he does not govern all reality he cannot be type 1 (and not 2 on the other CRT).
But I think that has stopped being said.

 

[Dog3352]

If the source is independent of what it governs, why is this CRT so long?

 

[Tatsumi504]

Who said it needs to be universal reality?

You said you called staff?

 

[PrinceofPein]

It's not name fallacy when it comes to other verses

Great sources only governs individual existence? Then tell me why amount of worlds magic power was affecting when sources were gotten affected. You should know to maintain order magic power is required which is fire dew.

First I do not understand your question
Secondly I am not supposed to know that
And thirdly, your scan did not mention anything about magic power getting affected when source was affected.
The only thing close to this was

If the total amount of magical power in the world continues to decrease, it is reasonable to assume that there are lives that cannot be reincarnated or transmigrated.

And this would imply that sources were getting affected due to decrease in magic power and not the other way around like you said

Also name fallacy really? I literally said that in touha verse when she used names of gods = concepts but yet the same who disagrees here, agreed there.

Like as much as I hate using whataboutsam arguments but it is tiring that those who agree with the same mechanics disagrees with this one.

I think Touhou has some other things aside just names, such as names giving things their attributes and definition. and I should add it is not the name they are given that is type 1 but rather name/boundaries itself in general is, also a thread needs to be open for 48hrs and it was closed prior if you have contentions you can always use that to open it

There is no difference in their application. The source is and has always been fire dew. It governs/influences Order which governs reality and also governs an individual existence.

A single source governs human, a collection of them (billions or infinite) governs order, that is a difference in their application.

There is no distinction between the two. The World itself doesn't have a source (source in the sense of an individual concept of it's own). The total amount of Fire Dew is what sustains the World.

Yes I think I mentioned that

All Fire Dew is the same and it is what governs Order. On earth (the world of mortals), Fire Dew exists as the source (if you're alive) and for those who are dead, they are Fire Dew in the world of the gods. Being alive doesn't remove the influence of your source/ Fire Dew on the Total amount in the world.

I still cannot really agree with all fire dew are the same, die to that quote about a conformist iirc.
It says someone like that makes the total fire dew stronger.

Now we're finally starting to see the big picture.
Take the total amount of Fire Dew/Source as nonrenewable energy. This energy is what sustains the world.
Take the brightness of a light bulb as an indicator for the worlds integrity (not in the sense of personality but as stability). Whenever any amount of Fire Dew/ source (using both interchangeably) is destroyed, consumed, leaked out of the world, the light bulb dims. The amount lost is what determines by how much the brightness of the light bulb dims.
Now when this energy falls below a certain level, the light bulb completely goes off indicating the complete loss of integrity and complete destruction of the world.

Verse mechanics? Probably but is it still about potency or scale? Yes, why? Because each individual fire dew/ claimed source, as you put it, still influences the stability of reality to a certain extent. Not completely destroying reality by destroying an individual one doesn't mean it's influence is zero, it's still there, just miniscule or unnoticeable.

Another analogy will be thousands of pillars that support a massive structure. Will the loss of one pillar cause the entire structure to crumble? No because there's still thousands more supporting it, does it mean the loss of one pillar doesn't compromise the structures integrity? Obviously no too.

Let me ask since the fire dew governs order (when I say fire dew, i mean the collective amount of sources). And orders are supposed to govern sources.
How does that work?
I mean at least to me it shows more distinction between the firedew and sources, since if that is not the case then individual sources are supposed to be above order, but it is only plausible since it is a verse thing.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

First I do not understand your question
Secondly I am not supposed to know that
And thirdly, your scan did not mention anything about magic power getting affected when source was affected.
The only thing close to this was

And this would imply that sources were getting affected due to decrease in magic power and not the other way around like you said

The scan didn't say sources got affected. Scan is saying some sources power got leaked out hence magic power of the world is decreasing. Pain really i request some honesty here don't ignore what scan says.

Magic Power Circulation is talking about 4 gods of Juri of course who maintain the root/fire dew power in circulation.

Misha nodded quietly, "Magic power does not circulate completely. Some of it spills over and eventually disappears."

"Hmmm. The total amount, huh?"

"The sum of the power of all things that have magic power, including demons, humans, magic tools, magic swords, and holy swords?"

Which is making the world's magic power getting affected.

"The total amount of potential magic in this world is constantly decreasing."

This scan never stated Source Getting affected by worlds Magical power you just made it up..

　If the total amount of magical power in the world continues to decrease, it is reasonable to assume that there are lives that cannot be reincarnated or transmigrated.

Have you even read the Tatsumi fire dew scan properly? It's talking about sources magic power gets lost hence some character source which were in Reincarnation getting leaking out of world so they can't Reincarnates.

Let me ask since the fire dew governs order (when I say fire dew, i mean the collective amount of sources). And orders are supposed to govern sources.
How does that work?
I mean at least to me it shows more distinction between the firedew and sources, since if that is not the case then individual sources are supposed to be above order, but it is only plausible since it is a verse thing.

There is nowhere it states collective of sources. The scan literally talks about even fire dew/source of individual governing order if you still wants to keep ignoring sure.

"You mean your mother was reincarnated from the outside world too, right?"

"Otherwise, they're wrong."

In all likelihood, that sen seems to be thin.

"Why were two people from the deep world reborn in the bubble world?"

Misha asks, raising a small hand.

"Fire dew may flow out of the bubble world into the deep, but not the other way around."

"Usually, yes."

In the Silver Water Holy Sea, fire dew crosses the world.

The root reincarnates and is reborn as if in another world.
Given that order, everyone is probably going to the deep end.

"No wonder there were one or two who were not so lucky."

Misha and Sasha looked at each other and giggled.

"How can I say it, it seems like you and your mother. To go against the order of the Silver Water Holy Sea and be reborn from the deep world to the bubble world. Especially your mother, just now-

Chapter 521


Eugola Raviaz who can maintain order of time couldn't damage or affect Source with his order. Meanwhile we treat order as CM type 1.

There were supernatural forces at work that prevented the past from being magically altered. Those forces were the Keepers—heavenly embodiments of divine providence, and of the law and order of the world.

The Keeper of Time, Eugo La Raviaz, maintained the order of time by removing factors attempting to alter the past. In other words, he killed anyone who cast Rivide.

The Scythe of the Timekeeper merged with his arm wreaked havoc on the temporal state of my body.

“Vanish in the eternity of time.”

Silver light enveloped me, and time accelerated. A billion—ten billion—no, an eternity repeated before me in a single instant. Not even the Demon King’s body could last forever. Eventually, it would wither and disappear.

By the time the light exploded, the body that had acquired an eternity of time had vanished—and died.

“Bwa ha ha! Well? What do you have to say now, foolish founder? Fate cannot be altered. This moment was decided from the moment I became immortal—no, from the moment you fled from war two thousand years ago!”

Hmm. So he’d finally revealed his true colors.

“I’m not sure how you’ve retained your memories after your past was erased, but it seems you haven’t forgotten me after all, Ivis.”

I placed my hand on his shoulder from behind.

Slowly, Ivis turned in disbelief. “H-How...? You were dead. I’m sure of it...”

Ivis had been born right as the war came to an end. He may have been a demon of the Mythical Age, but he didn’t know true magical warfare.

“Did you really think killing me was enough to make me die?”

Ivis activated his Magic Eyes. But there were no tricks to it—I had indeed died just now.

“Don’t act so surprised. I merely used Ingall.”

“You cast magic...with your source alone?! Without using a single drop of blood...”

Even if the physical body perishes, the source of one’s power remains. Those who have mastered magic are able to cast spells with only their source—making feats like reincarnation possible. Resurrection could be performed as long as the magic was cast within three seconds of death.

If you don't call this as Source being equal or superior to order I don't know what to tell you.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Let me ask since the fire dew governs order (when I say fire dew, i mean the collective amount of sources). And orders are supposed to govern sources.
How does that work?
I mean at least to me it shows more distinction between the firedew and sources, since if that is not the case then individual sources are supposed to be above order, but it is only plausible since it is a verse thing.

No Order governs sources.
What order is governing is the flow rate of fire dew, the cycle through birth, deepening, end, transformation and back to birth.
The only thing I can imagine that makes you think this are the Orders of Creation & Birth but what they govern is the general concept of Life likewise Destruction & Demise/End govern the general concept of death.
Nonetheless, none of them govern sources the only thing they affect is conventional life and death

 

[mal]

Those are bubble world which don't have chief god to maintain the order hence people contestantly kills each other with war and other things that would result in decrease of fire dew slowly. Only in some Lucky Bubble worlds a Chief God will be born Unlucky ones gets destroyed because of no fire dew left to Maintain the reality.

but if they didnt have chief God then that mean theres no Order = no concept?

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

but if they didnt have chief God then that mean theres no Order = no concept?

Without order nothing exists. Bubble world constantly loose fire dew. For example you kill someone that source will move out of the world because chief god don't governs the order. Hence Bubble world fire dew gets decreased and eventually gets destroyed. Silver Bubbles has chief god if someone dies it shouldn't be able to get out as chief god stops the leakage of fire dew from the Silver bubble world.

 

[PrinceofPein]

No Order governs sources.
What order is governing is the flow rate of fire dew, the cycle through birth, deepening, end, transformation and back to birth.
The only thing I can imagine that makes you think this are the Orders of Creation & Birth but what they govern is the general concept of Life likewise Destruction & Demise/End govern the general concept of death.
Nonetheless, none of them govern sources the only thing they affect is conventional life and death

Order of life and death and reincarnation governs sources? you mentioned it in the OP, so it would not make sense for individual sources to govern order and order governing them too.
That aside
Do you get a few of my contention so far?
My advice is that this thread is done, create a new one.
Use the fire dew arguments like I suggested and not what was in the OP.
Right now it is all scattered and I can barely keep up.
So you can just make a new thread and put all the arguments suggested there. And straighforward scans.

 

[Theglassman12]

So should this be closed?

 

[Tatsumi504]

Order of life and death and reincarnation governs sources?

I mentioned Order of the 4 fundamental Gods governing the flow rate of fire dew which is what makes reincarnation possible. Nothing governs fire dew or sources. There's no Order of Life and Death, those are encompassed by other Orders like Creation and Birth governing conventional Life and Destruction and Demise governing Destruction, Death or the End

So you can just make a new thread and put all the arguments suggested there. And straighforward scans.

Alright I'll do that.

So should this be closed?

Yeah, could you handle that for me please?

 

[Theglassman12]

Alright, closing.