Maou Gakuin no Futekigousha CRT: Addressing Venuzdonoa’s “Logic Manipulation”

[CloverDragon03]

So I've recently been made aware that Venuzdonoa has a special sort of ability called "Logic Manipulation," which appears to be separate from typical Law Manipulation and perhaps superior to it. Given that this is a unique-sounding ability, I looked into it further, and found that well...

Its basis is, ironically, a lot less logical than one might presume. Let's take a look.

Why Venuzdonoa's "Logic Manipulation" Shouldn't Exist​

Before we'd begin, I'd like to emphasize what we define as Law Manipulation on this site. To quote the ability page, Law Manipulation is the following:

The ability to manipulate "laws" that automatically apply themselves upon reality, referring to rules, mandates and even fundamental logical principles/truths/facts that are the way in which a reality may function.

Keep this in mind as I go through this justification, as you might notice a pattern throughout it.

Since I haven't actually watched the anime or otherwise gone through this series, I'll be turning to Venuzdonoa's justification for this ability. Keep in mind, I'll only be listing off what I see as relevant to the "Logic Manipulation" in question. Each bullet point will contain a justification, followed by my problem with it. Anyways, let's begin.

• Venuzdonoa reduces all logic to null, and there is no point in thinking what, how, or why​
  • I'm gonna be saying this repeatedly, aren't I...? This is just Law Manipulation. "Logic" gets reduced to null. Y'know, logic. A fundamental truth of the world. What exactly makes this so special?​
• Reason doesn't exist in the face of Venuzdonoa, dodging an attack doesn't mean you dodged it, and not being slashed by Venuzdonoa doesn't mean you weren't slashed by it​
  • Reason not existing in the face of Venezdunoa is pretty much in the same camp as the first point. Reason is a fundamental truth and concept of the world, so I'm not sure how this helps at all. Simply mentioning "logic" once doesn't help at all, given that logical truths are encompassed by Law Manipulation, leading us into...​
  • "Dodging an attack should mean you dodged it." This is a fundamental truth of the world, and as such, affecting this truth such that dodging an attack doesn't actually mean you dodged it is simply affecting a fundamental truth. Case in point, this is Law Manipulation. Nothing more.​
  • "Not being slashed means you weren't slashed." This is, again, a fundamental truth of the world. This is literally the same predicament as before, and as such is simply Law Manipulation.​

And well... That's about it as far as Venuzdonoa's justification on its profile goes. However, there's some more claims I've seen about Venuzdonoa's "Logic Manipulation" that apparently make it so special, which I'd like to cover as well.

• "Venuzdonoa can destroy logic (as mentioned before), and logic holds superiority over order since destroying logic also destroys order. Order is also equivalent to laws and providences, all of which Venuzdonoa can destroy"
  • The problem here is that this assumes this is something completely special rather than just being... a more potent form of Law Manipulation. The fact of the matter is that logic is a fundamental truth, and as such, can be affected by Law Manipulation. Even if the verse treats logic as superior to the likes of order and laws, that just means it's a more potent form of Law Manipulation because logic is still a fundamental truth.
• "Venuzdonoa can destroy logic that even encompasses laws and is thus above them, which indicates it's fundamentally different"
  • My response to this is the same as what came before: this is not the case. This simply makes it a more potent form of Law Manipulation. In fact, Venuzdonoa's profile seems to acknowledge this, as overriding logic is simply listed on its profile as "higher degree of Law Manipulation." This is pretty much a self-admittance to the fact that affecting logic is, in fact, Law Manipulation to a higher degree. And that's all it is, really.
    • It also doesn't help that the "Logic Manipulation" literally links to Law Manipulation when clicked on.

And with that, I believe I've covered all my issues with this. Really, my issue doesn't lie in any of the feats themselves, but in listing this as something completely separate from Law Manipulation. As a result, I propose that Logic Manipulation as an "ability" be removed entirely, as this is all evidently just a higher degree of Law Manipulation and that's it. With that being said, I now open the floor to all of you to discuss this. Let's keep this civil, aight?

Agree: 24 (@Eseseso, @Planck69, @Rutæhh, @Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara, @AdamVhenJP, @Dark_Soul20189, @Robo432343, @PrinceofPein, @HammerStrikes219, @Theglassman12, @Blackcurrant91, @deonment, @Georredannea15, @Milly_Rocking_Bandit, @RanHover60, @Deceived3596, @marosuke, @BrackishBrineBroth, @Maverick_Zero_X, @KingTempest, @TheGreatJedi13, @Duedate8898 [believes the "logic" stuff should be Causality Manipulation instead of greater Law Manipulation], @Deagonx, @UchihaSlayer96 [sorta agrees with Duedate])
Disagree: 14 (@Tatsumi504, @EldemadeDityjon, @Godsatoshi23, @AnonymousBlank, @Dereck03, @ROZAN-TIMSINA0, @DarkDragonMedeus, @wwereymy235, @Saucy_Jackistan24, @Worthless, @ÆONS, @Embers_of_Twilight, @Jozaysmith?, @Fyodol_Empyrean)
Neutral: 2 (@Ruler_Star_Kuma, @LordGriffin1000)

 

[Eseseso]

I was thinking the same thing myself, so obviously I agree!

I question if it's even a "higher degree" of Law Manip, seems like it's just law manip with a lot of use.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I mean it seems to be a higher degree of it from the evidence shown, just not its own unique ability

 

[Planck69]

Been wondering about this ever since I came across it in a match, you put it into words perfectly.

I agree.

 

[Rutæhh]

agree

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Can I consider this my welcome back gift
I agree. Venuz clearly fits law manipulation best, given all the descriptions of its capabilities.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Can I consider this my welcome back gift
I agree. Venuz clearly fits law manipulation best, given all the descriptions of its capabilities.

I mean I had this in the works for a minute but if you want to, then go ahead

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

Don't really see logic manipulation as anything but just law manipulation (in this case, venuzdonoa being capable of doing it in a super cracked manner)

Can say I agree for this.

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

Actually, what sort of law would destroying the fact you dodged yet you still get hit even if the strike missed anyway even be??

Doesn't feel like a law trying to think about it-. Law of distance of some sort??

Edit: Don't get me wrong, still agreeing with the thread cause I'm sure it's just vaguely law manip at its finest- but still, thinking about it is weird

 

[AdamVhenJP]

I agree

 

[Eseseso]

Actually, what sort of law would destroying the fact you dodged yet you still get hit even if the strike missed anyway even be??

Doesn't feel like a law trying to think about it-. Law of distance of some sort??

Edit: Don't get me wrong, still agreeing with the thread cause I'm sure it's just vaguely law manip at its finest- but still, thinking about it is weird

Honestly does seem like causality manipulation in addition to law manipulation. But definitely not its own thing.

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

Honestly does seem like causality manipulation in addition to law manipulation. But definitely not its own thing.

Well venuzdonoa can do that, too

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Seems logical, I agree.

 

[Robo432343]

Seems logical, I agree.

no pun intended

anyway i agree

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

no pun intended

anyway i agree

I didn't even think about that...... My go to response is "Seems Logical, I agree" or "Looks good, I agree" depending on the context of the CRT. If i have more to say I will do so.

 

[PrinceofPein]

looks good

 

[HammerStrikes219]

I watched the anime and I haven’t see anything that give me logic manipulation. Could been like a form of power null with law manipulation given the evidence provided here

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

I watched the anime and I haven’t see anything that give me logic manipulation. Could been like a form of power null with law manipulation given the evidence provided here

not even close, lol

 

[HammerStrikes219]

not even close, lol

What you mean “not even close”? I was going off what I remember from the anime.

Actually, what sort of law would destroying the fact you dodged yet you still get hit even if the strike missed anyway even be??

Doesn't feel like a law trying to think about it-. Law of distance of some sort??

Edit: Don't get me wrong, still agreeing with the thread cause I'm sure it's just vaguely law manip at its finest- but still, thinking about it is weirdl

Law of space and time although using the context, law of distance as this is novels we talking about here so I wouldn’t overthink this shit much

 

[CloverDragon03]

I watched the anime and I haven’t see anything that give me logic manipulation. Could been like a form of power null with law manipulation given the evidence provided here

Does this mean you agree with the CRT?

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Does this mean you agree with the CRT?

Yes, take it as a agree.

I only watch the anime and while this is off topic, I find it okay at the least.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

• It also doesn't help that the "Logic Manipulation" literally links to Law Manipulation when clicked on.

Because there is no ability in the wiki for logic manipulation. Law manipulation is the closest to that being. We also got DT opinion on this case. DT is the one who suggested Law Manipulation because we don't have the ability in the wiki for Logic. You should also tag @Dereck03 Instead of taking opinion of the people who lacks the knowledge of the verse and series.

---

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

I KNEW THERE WAS SOMETHING OFF...

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

Because there is no ability in the wiki for logic manipulation. Law manipulation is the closest to that being. We also got DT opinion on this case. DT is the one who suggested Law Manipulation because we don't have the ability in the wiki for Logic. You should also tag @Dereck03 Instead of taking opinion of the people who lacks the knowledge of the verse and series.

---

Always wondered how it managed to get logic manip on its profile page-. No wonder...

 

[CloverDragon03]

Because there is no ability in the wiki for logic manipulation. Law manipulation is the closest to that being. We also got DT opinion on this case. DT is the one who suggested Law Manipulation because we don't have the ability in the wiki for Logic. You should also tag @Dereck03 Instead of taking opinion of the people who lacks the knowledge of the verse and series.

---

Thanks for that second scan. It directly shows another staff member supporting the fact that this is just Law Manipulation by our standards as opposed to some unique ability

Also everyone’s free to give their opinions on this, that’s not some special privilege. Proper counterarguments are preferred over “they just don’t know the verse.” The point of justifications on profiles is that anyone can understand the reasoning regardless of their knowledge on a given series.

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

Why don't we just make a logic manip page-

 

[CloverDragon03]

Why don't we just make a logic manip page-

Because that’s needlessly specific (I can count on one hand the number of characters that I know would receive this as an ability) and really is just an application of Law Manipulation

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

Because that’s needlessly specific (I can count on one hand the number of characters that I know would receive this as an ability) and really is just an application of Law Manipulation

I mean it's kinda making it clear there's at least SOME sort of difference

Don't know if there's any sort of law manipulation that turns wrong test answers into right ones-.

edit: though I mean, could also list that specific thing SOMEWHERE in the law manip page, venuzdonoa's is clearly much more cracked than others-.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I mean it's kinda making it clear there's at least SOME sort of difference

Don't know if there's any sort of law manipulation that turns wrong test answers into right ones-.

There is. See the italicized part of the Law Manipulation description in the OP

 

[Godsatoshi23]

Thanks for that second scan. It directly shows another staff member supporting the fact that this is just Law Manipulation by our standards as opposed to some unique ability

DT supports it because there is no page for Logic Manipulation; if we did have one, he would have agreed with Logic Manipulation, as he said. But sadly we don't have one, we linked it to law Manipulation.

 

[CloverDragon03]

DT supports it because there is no page for Logic Manipulation; if we did have one, he would have agreed with Logic Manipulation, as he said. But sadly we don't have one.

We don’t have one for good reason: it’s needlessly specific and what it encompasses simply amounts to an application of Law Manipulation. It’s why a Logic Manipulation page has never actually been made.

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

There is. See the italicized part of the Law Manipulation description in the OP

there's something funny about treating wrong test answers as a fundamental truth but i can't put my finger on it, lol

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Thanks for that second scan. It directly shows another staff member supporting the fact that this is just Law Manipulation by our standards as opposed to some unique ability

The second scan shows that we lack a page on logic manipulation, so we linked it to law manipulation. It doesn't support your argument, and the first scan clearly shows that logic and laws are different things.

It's listed seperately because of people misunderstanding the usage of the ability in the vs thread.

Also everyone’s free to give their opinions on this, that’s not some special privilege. Proper counterarguments are preferred over “they just don’t know the verse.” The point of justifications on profiles is that anyone can understand the reasoning regardless of their knowledge on a given series.

No one is talking about specific previlage. I'm suggesting you to ask for knowledgeable members input as rules states instead of just going with others votes. It's even specifically states to tag them if you are a staff.

Discussion Rules

VS Battles Wiki is a site where the members attempt to index the statistics of characters across different fictional franchises. These efforts lead to much discussion about certain feats, statements and calculations regarding their validity, reliability, etc. However, certain topics keep popping...

vsbattles.fandom.com

To get better input in a content revision thread, inspect the knowledgeable members list for verses to get information about the people who know much about a franchise, and leave polite notices on their message walls that ask them to participate in the discussion. If staff members are present, they can also use the @Username command to send automatic notifications to others. However, this does not work for regular members.

 

[CloverDragon03]

there's something funny about treating wrong test answers as a fundamental truth but i can't put my finger on it, lol

I mean it sounds funny on paper, but a wrong answer on a test being treated as wrong is a simple logical principle - which Law Manipulation encompasses

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

Though if the series goes out of its way to differentiate it somewhat, I wonder what the hell sort of law is supposed to be towards the absurdity order-.

 

[CloverDragon03]

The second scan shows that we lack a page on logic manipulation, so we linked it to law manipulation. It doesn't support your argument, and the first scan clearly shows that logic and laws are different things.

It's listed seperately because of people misunderstanding the usage of the ability in the vs thread.

You don’t just create abilities out of the blue if we don’t have them (site-wide abilities anyway, as verse-specific ones are more like amalgamations of many other abilities shared by certain characters in a verse). This is simply Law Manipulation, and also, DontTalk’s examples seem to fall under Law Manipulation themselves. Bear in mind that the ability also includes logical principles, so no, I don’t see this as “misunderstanding” anything. I’m just calling it the way it is, from my point of view.

No one is talking about specific previlage. I'm suggesting you to ask for knowledgeable members input as rules states instead of just going with others votes. It's even specifically states to tag them if you are a staff.

Discussion Rules

VS Battles Wiki is a site where the members attempt to index the statistics of characters across different fictional franchises. These efforts lead to much discussion about certain feats, statements and calculations regarding their validity, reliability, etc. However, certain topics keep popping...

vsbattles.fandom.com

I don’t understand. “Going with others’ votes” is kinda how the CRT process goes. If multiple staff, for example, decide to approve my thread, I’m not gonna just not apply it simply because “they don’t know the verse.”

Semantics aside, @Dereck03 you’re like the only staff member that I know is well-versed MGK so your input would be appreciated

 

[Tatsumi504]

Because that’s needlessly specific (I can count on one hand the number of characters that I know would receive this as an ability) and really is just an application of Law Manipulation

In that case, why don't we get rid of physics, mathematics mathematics manipulation or all powers infact and just list it as reality warping?

Snip

No, your twisting what DT said. DT doesn't say "it's just law manipulation", he's saying "the closest power we currently have that fits that description is law manipulation".

This isn't the first time an ability doesn't fit into the powers we have. I don't actually get what this CRT is about honestly. You've accepted that the ability is manipulating logic but as per our standards, logic manipulation falls under law manipulation hence that's what it is but it doesn't change the fact it's manipulating logic.
What you're simply saying is verses like naruto and dragon ball shouldn't have chakra manipulation and ki manipulation as an ability since it's simply energy manipulation and projection.

While on topic, what law would you manipulate to erase things from existence, solve the paradox of omnipotence, regenerate something from complete destruction of the highest level, give beings incapable of thought a mind?

it’s needlessly specific

I'd argue physics and mathematics manipulation as well are needlessly specific too. The only issue with a logic manipulation page is that there's too few users but that isn't a reason to downplay/incorrectly index a completely separate ability

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

The only issue with a logic manipulation page is that there's too few users but that isn't a reason to downplay/incorrectly index a completely separate ability

Wait, doesn't that mean we're kinda out of luck when it comes to this then, or?

edit: like, i'm on board with the line of thought now, but it's kind of... well, what are we supposed to do, just keep it?

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

You don’t just create abilities out of the blue if we don’t have them (site-wide abilities anyway, as verse-specific ones are more like amalgamations of many other abilities shared by certain characters in a verse). This is simply Law Manipulation, and also, DontTalk’s examples seem to fall under Law Manipulation themselves.

Read his reply again. He said 'Law Manipulation, probably,' indicating, according to him, that Law Manipulation might fit the criteria because the wiki lacks the page. He never once implied or stated something to support your interpretation; he literally just suggested the closest form of the ability, that's all.

If what you're saying is true, DT would say,

"Hey, that's just law manipulation; don't wank it as logic."

"Why are you calling it logic manipulation? It's just law manipulation."

"It's just law manipulation, bruh, not logic manipulation. Just list it as law manipulation.

Bear in mind that the ability also includes logical principles, so no, I don’t see this as “misunderstanding” anything. I’m just calling it the way it is, from my point of view.

We literally have death manipulation > anything in the verse of ID for Yogiri
Similar to that case Logic > Anything in Maou Gakuin.
Order encompasses Laws, Fate and concepts. Logic is treated as something different that than even different than non existent, Acausality and TD in the verse.
Yes removing that will cause misunderstanding.

I don’t understand. “Going with others’ votes” is kinda how the CRT process goes. If multiple staff, for example, decide to approve my thread, I’m not gonna just not apply it simply because “they don’t know the verse.”

Then why keep the rules in the page if no one wants to follow them?

Semantics aside, @Dereck03 you’re like the only staff member that I know is well-versed MGK so your input would be appreciated

Thanks

 

[CloverDragon03]

In that case, why don't we get rid of physics, mathematics mathematics manipulation or all powers infact and just list it as reality warping?

This is a false equivalence and a half and you know it. Already off to a bad start

No, your twisting what DT said. DT doesn't say "it's just law manipulation", he's saying "the closest power we currently have that fits that description is law manipulation".

He didn’t say that. He just said “Law Manipulation, probably.” The whole “twisting” accusation is also one I could easily reverse onto you, but you don’t see me taking that approach, do you?

This isn't the first time an ability doesn't fit into the powers we have. I don't actually get what this CRT is about honestly. You've accepted that the ability is manipulating logic but as per our standards, logic manipulation falls under law manipulation hence that's what it is but it doesn't change the fact it's manipulating logic.

Whataboutism aside, the point is that you’ve indexed this as some completely unique ability that nothing else has or anything, when it very neatly falls into an existing ability that many characters have: Law Manipulation.

To put it into perspective, I’ll use another example of this I see more frequently: “Pain Tolerance” as an ability. This is made up. It’s literally just Stamina feats, so we shouldn’t be creating something out of the blue like this.

What you're simply saying is verses like naruto and dragon ball shouldn't have chakra manipulation and ki manipulation as an ability since it's simply energy manipulation and projection.

Funny you say that considering that’s how we treated these for the longest time. Even then, this is a bad comparison, as these fall under verse-specific abilities. As such, they’re more like amalgamations of abilities on our site shared by a number of characters. Conversely, this “Logic Manipulation” is treated as some site-wide ability rather than a verse-specific thing like Chakra or Ki - one that no one else has at all.

So yeah, your comparison falls flat on its face here.

While on topic, what law would you manipulate to erase things from existence, solve the paradox of omnipotence, regenerate something from complete destruction of the highest level, give beings incapable of thought a mind?

I mean, just replace “law” with “logic” and I can ask you the same questions. And your answers would pretty much be my answers, except with “logic” replaced with “law.” These two terms are fundamentally similar in the sense of both describing fundamental truths of the world. MGK treating “logic” as superior to “law” would simply mean that affecting the former is a more potent Law Manipulation than affecting the latter.

I'd argue physics and mathematics manipulation as well are needlessly specific too. The only issue with a logic manipulation page is that there's too few users but that isn't a reason to downplay/incorrectly index a completely separate ability

Physics and Mathematics Manipulation aren’t even relevant here, and you’re free to have that opinion anyway.

Really, what concerns me most is how you’ve approached this thread. Your very first response comes with things like “twisting words” and “downplaying,” which frankly tells me all I need to know about how you’ve chosen to approach this.

It’s precisely this reason why I hesitated to post this thread…