Maou Gakuin no Futekigousha CRT: Addressing Venuzdonoa’s “Logic Manipulation”

[Planck69]

Who was talking about in the setting? Eseseso grievance is no character on the wiki resists it.
If hope is a power that isn't an amalgamation of various others then go ahead

I'm fairly sure their grievance is that this power seems to just exist so that it can have that technicality of being different from others and thus "unresistable". Given how it seems to be treated, I'm inclined to agree.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I saw the justifications. They were good showcases of Law Manipulation. I dunno why the argument is even going on. I'm not saying the justifications don't exist. They're just being labelled as something beyond what they are.

Argue for the deletion of Fear Manipulation then. I'm not even particularly in agreement to its existing. Physics Manipulation is the manipulation of physics and how objects follow its laws and fairly specific usually. I'm ambivalent to Mathematical Manipulation, and so on. Once again, "but what about X" isn't really an argument.

We don't have to prove something listed as a direct application on the Law Manipulation page is Law Manipulation. That it trumps other instances of itself doesn't change that fact.

That no character resists it in the setting is just a testament to its potency, nothing more. Or should I give Kratos Hope Manipulation, given no one in the setting (including a higher order being) can resist it?

So if I'm correct you are suggesting
Narrative can differentiate and list it as different

"Before my eyes, everything will perish. Order, reason, and you, Eques." (Anos)
"I'm saying I destroyed the reason of Fate turns for the sake of the world [Beld Rase Femblem]." (Anos)
"You who determined fate, and I who destroyed reason. The two powers were contradictory. Therefore I won." (Anos)
If there's a contradiction between the [Magic Eye of Chaotic Destruction] and the reason that must be destroyed, I will win unilaterally.
It's that simple.
Compared to the reason which makes a single event certainly happen, it's far more advantageous for the [Magic Eye of Chaotic Destruction] which makes this event never happen.

But when you read it this makes more sense?

"Before my eyes, everything will perish. Law, Law, and you, Eques." (Anos)
"I'm saying I destroyed the reason of Fate turns for the sake of the world [Beld Rase Femblem]." (Anos)
"You who determined fate, and I who destroyed reason. The two powers were contradictory. Therefore I won." (Anos)
If there's a contradiction between the [Magic Eye of Chaotic Destruction] and the reason that must be destroyed, I will win unilaterally.
It's that simple.
Compared to the reason which makes a single event certainly happen, it's far more advantageous for the [Magic Eye of Chaotic Destruction] which makes this event never happen.

 

[Tatsumi504]

I'm fairly sure their grievance is that this power seems to just exist so that it can have that technicality of being different from others and thus "unresistable". Given how it seems to be treated, I'm inclined to agree.

You're free to see it that way, it doesn't change what was said in the message also, the power exists because it has been outlined as something different.

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

if the series really goes that far for even (what the sword is based on) to just show how different it is (against the top hierarchical god in militia world) really are just stuck in a crossroads due to the ability not really able to get a profile

edit: reason pun not intended i bring up the second bit is because well.. eques be eques. but not like i'm not understanding both sides here.

 

[CloverDragon03]

There is more than a single mention of "logic", and there is even more mention of "Reason" which is what equates to logic. You treat "Logic" as if it were a concept equal to Law or something like a more powerful "Law Manip", first of all, at no point in the series is it ever equated or mentioned that Logic/Reason is a derivative of order or that they share similarities conceptually.

In the verse the only Law that exists are those that the gods with their order exercise, the derivatives of the ability would be minor abilities of the order or that are based on the magical power, either the magical eyes or abilities that dictate certain law. What is known as Higher Degree of Law Manip in verse is simply the Hierarchy of order i.e All gods by default have base resistance to the order of other gods but the more important the role of the god then the stronger their order will be, that is what we could call a higher power of Law & Cm or even Layers since as I mentioned, all gods possess resistance to order and are hierarchically ranked.

First part is honestly just semantics. The point is that simply mentioning "logic" and "reason" doesn't mean it should suddenly be its own unique ability. The rest of this also kinda gets into my overall problem: I'm not sure how any of this makes this something completely separate from Law Manipulation. Fundamentally speaking, logic, reason, and law are all nigh-identical in nature. Destroying the reason that someone dodging an attack means they evaded it, for instance, is fundamentally the same as destroying the law that dictates that dodging an attack means you evaded it.

This seems like manipulating logic/reason could be an additional layer of Law Manipulation, but it is by no means a completely separate (and essentially made-up) ability.

The ability proposed at that time was Resistance Negation, I accepted Higher degree of Law Manip because Deagon didn't want to keep arguing and the rest of the staff didn't give an evaluation so it was a temporary solution to get out of that CRT, besides I was only a Content Mod at that time and I didn't even have voting rights so my disagreement was never taken into account. After that i just forgot to fix it.

Well that would need its own thread, as currently that's simply treated as a higher degree of Law Manipulation. In addition, judging by the justification, I'm not exactly sure what would make this Resistance Negation. This just seems like whatever this "Logic Manipulation" is, which I maintain is simply a more potent form of Law Manipulation.

That was my only solution after asking DT what to do if we don't have the Logic Manipulation ability then the alternative was link Law Manip instead so that's not an argument.

Back to the main point, as I said, reason cannot be equated with law or order, since order is the origin of law itself, which has no relation with Reason/Logic.

On many occasions it has been shown that the characters (mainly Anos) talk specifically about destroying reason on too many occasions and do not classify it as something similar to order or law.

As we know the current novel is in Volume 5 so we don't have many more mentions of reason, the most important ones which I remember are in V8 (Anos vs Graham, Venuzdonoa destroying reason vs Befengunuzdoma disorting the reality, graham's nothingness which has no reason and order) V10 (Eques vs Anos' MEoCD destroying reason and order) and a bunch of other mentions that are made throughout the series.

Here a WN scan verified by 2 of our TL helper team with some mentions of it.

You will ask why is this scan relevant if Venuzdonoa is not directly mentioned? Venuzdonoa gained the ability to destroy reason because apart from the order of destruction that was already capable of destroying the other orders, this one was created based Anos' Chaotic Eyes that are capable of destroying reason, thanks to this it was converted into the Reason Destroying Sworld or as J-Novels calls it Abolisher of Reason.

But this doesn't mean we just make up abilities that don't actually exist on our site. Rather, we reason them as abilities that our site does cover. That encompasses my biggest issue with the existence of this ability. It was reasoned as Law Manipulation by DT, yet despite that, it seems to have been taken as its own unique ability despite said conclusion being reached.

Also, I think you're getting too caught up in the semantics of "law," "order," and "reason." Going by our own Law Manipulation page, all such things are included in it. And "reason" being superior to "order" and "law" would simply give it greater potency. It doesn't have to be something wholly unique.

As for the WN scan, this is really just more of the same. "Order" and "reason" both fall under some form of Law Manipulation, with the latter being superior to the former. That's all this is really. My stance remains completely unchanged.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Looking at Venezudoa's page and how it describes logic manip, I see that it definitely could qualify for not just law hax but causality hax (though the page already says the sword has this) and type 1 concept hax (but the sword already has this as well).

Order already encompasses concepts, fate , Casualty and Laws which governs the reality.


Reason/logic is identified as different in the verse. Nothing states that reason/logic is the same thing. It doesn't manipulate causality alone; it can do many other things by destroying the logic behind them.

 

[Eseseso]

Who was talking about in the setting? Eseseso grievance is no character on the wiki resists it.
If hope is a power that isn't an amalgamation of various others then go ahead

That was admittedly me whining, but don't try slandering the OP with it to deflect.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Agree with OP.

 

[Tatsumi504]

but don't try slandering the OP with it to deflect.

This has got to be the height of pettiness for those who actually agreed solely for this reason and I feel sorry for clover who I believe didn't make this thread for that reason.

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

feel like it may be better to take the loss on this one, tats-.

I mean could try and make a case for a potential page LATER for logic manip if that sounds like a good idea-. or can wait till DT comes back to ask on what they meant at that time.

Edit (again): I kinda see the point to be made (for MGK, I mean I read it too and seeing the argument I sorta agree), but would probably be better to revisit this when possible after it's a better time to do so. It'd just be keeping a logic manip that leads that the law manip page.

 

[Zeinx1]

i agree with OP

 

[Fixxed]

And "reason" being superior to "order" and "law" would simply give it greater potency. It doesn't have to be something wholly unique.

Well the problem is not the superiority, but those two is different thing by default in the verse

Like concept and law is different metaphysical aspect, reason and order is also different metaphysical aspect in that verse

I dont mind if this just a law manipulation, but in application in fight in order to resist it you sure must resist some metaphysical aspect that govern simulteneously law, concept, and fate, i mean not just resist law concept and fate but resist something that govern those aspect, like resist death doesnt mean you also resist concept of death

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Y'all have failed to do one thing and that is prove logic is just law as a power. Power null via causality manipulation doesn't stop discredit the manipulation of causality. A power is indexed according to what it can do, effect it derives.

This is actually on you to prove as the default implication is laws and logic are synonyms.

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

This is actually on you to prove as the default implication is laws and logic are synonyms.

By technicality it's on both sides to come up with an agreement despite the OP already having it's statement made-.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Well the problem is not the superiority, but those two is different thing by default in the verse

Like concept and law is different metaphysical aspect, reason and order is also different metaphysical aspect in that verse

I dont mind if this just a law manipulation, but in application in fight in order to resist it you sure must resist some metaphysical aspect that govern simulteneously law, concept, and fate, i mean not just resist law concept and fate but resist something that govern those aspect, like resist death doesnt mean you also resist concept of death

I mean, looking at the examples provided for what logic/reason indicates, it seems to fall pretty neatly into Law Manipulation. The ability of Law Manipulation encompasses multiple things

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

I mean, looking at the examples provided for what logic/reason indicates, it seems to fall pretty neatly into Law Manipulation. The ability of Law Manipulation encompasses multiple things.

Really just comes down to whether people seperate or put law and logic manip as the same overall power

Not having DT to explain what they meant REALLY just makes this harder... it's not like I'm not getting both sides of the argument, but it's an odd position for sure considering venuzdonoa just 'destroys'. With the story seeming it like does differentiate (especially with the context of the enemy at hand of which the ability the sword was based on was being used).

 

[CloverDragon03]

Well, destroying the thing in question usually just falls under manipulation of it. For example, the Law Manipulation page states:

Basic users of the power may only disturb one or more laws without control over them. Regular and more advanced users may be able to destroy, nullify, modify, and/or create new laws, potentially to keep an order or to benefit themselves.

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

Well, destroying the thing in question usually just falls under manipulation of it. For example, the Law Manipulation page states:

Probably just feels really weird to put it as that (at least for the MGK side, me included a good bit) with how orders work, and especially with who characters like Graham-.

Though, if it's really nothing can do to even keep Logic Manip up on the page if it really just leads to Law manip as that's the only thing it could be LINKED to anyways...

Edit: yeah, may be good to revisit this when removed (if logic manip can even possibly get a page, someone correct me if i'm wrong) or with DT's answer when they come back. Don't really see this ending easily-.

 

[deonment]

if logic manip can even possibly get a page

Logic manip doesn't and shouldn't need a page, because it is just law manip, not something that could be considered a subset of the power, but is the same thing, the only real difference would be in how it's executed.

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

Logic manip doesn't and shouldn't need a page, because it is just law manip, not something that could be considered a subset of the power, but is the same thing, the only real difference would be in how it's executed.

Reason why I said earlier, depends on the people who believe it's the same or actually different

It turns into more than just for Venuzdonoa at that point

Edit: I do appreciate the acknowledgement it shouldn't be a subset though, lol.

 

[RanHover60]

Agree fra. It just looks like law manip on crack with a few other abilities sprinkled in. At best it would warrant a verse page explaining it's abilities, but nothing that would actually distinguish it as a new site wide ability.

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

Agree fra. It just looks like law manip on crack with a few other abilities sprinkled in. At best it would warrant a verse page explaining it's abilities, but nothing that would actually distinguish it as a new site wide ability.

That sounds like it could work as a good work mutual work around-.

Edit: Wait no, the venuzdonoa profile already does THAT I'm stupid lol.

 

[Fixxed]

I mean, looking at the examples provided for what logic/reason indicates, it seems to fall pretty neatly into Law Manipulation. The ability of Law Manipulation encompasses multiple things

Like i say i dont mind if that just a law, but in its application in fight, it need more specific than just a power of law manipulation, because in fact it is not a law in verse's context it something different
Soo...

but in application in fight in order to resist it you sure must resist some metaphysical aspect that govern simulteneously law, concept, and fate, i mean not just resist law concept and fate but resist something that govern those aspect, like resist death doesnt mean you also resist concept of death

 

[Deceived3596]

I mean, I guess this makes sense.

I don't personally see the issue with syntactically explaining it differently, but semantically resulting in it basically being the same thing. It just seems kinda pointless from my perspective since it's an issue of grammatical presentation rather than disagreeing with the actual contents of the ability.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I mean, I guess this makes sense.

I don't personally see the issue with syntactically explaining it differently, but semantically resulting in it basically being the same thing. It just seems kinda pointless from my perspective since it's an issue of grammatical presentation rather than disagreeing with the actual contents of the ability.

The main issue is how this is applied in practice. This really isn’t a matter of semantics given that this is currently treated as some completely unique ability

 

[wwereymy235]

Disagree due to Derecks reasonings.

 

[Saucy_Jackistan24]

Disagree with the OP because of the counter reasonings provided.

 

[Worthless]

But when you read it this makes more sense?

That looks perfectly normal to me but seriously, what more is there to say when the verse itself treats the two things as different?

 

[CloverDragon03]

That looks perfectly normal to me but seriously, what more is there to say when the verse itself treats the two things as different?

A single ability on VSBW can be applied to multiple things in-verse, that's not exactly a unique concept. I take issue with the idea that this has to be something completely unique, especially when the unique thing in question is an ability that doesn't actually exist on VSBW.

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

A single ability on VSBW can be applied to multiple things in-verse, that's not exactly a unique concept. I take issue with the idea that this has to be something completely unique, especially when the unique thing in question is an ability that doesn't actually exist on VSBW.

Truly, a 'do you believe logic and law manipulation are the same' moment

 

[Worthless]

A single ability on VSBW can be applied to multiple things in-verse, that's not exactly a unique concept. I take issue with the idea that this has to be something completely unique, especially when the unique thing in question is an ability that doesn't actually exist on VSBW.

If you acknowledge it to be completely unique, then what's the point of changing logic manipulation to a higher degree of law manipulation when the verse itself says no to it? Count me as disagreeing as well.

 

[CloverDragon03]

If you acknowledge it to be completely unique, then what's the point of changing logic manipulation to a higher degree of law manipulation when the verse itself says no to it? Count me as disagreeing as well.

Because as far as VSBW goes, it’s a completely made up ability. Also, I explicitly said that it’s a different application of the same ability, so I didn’t “acknowledge” what you think I did. As established before, both rules that govern reality and logical principles are encompassed by Law Manipulation.

When it comes to giving abilities, we don’t just make up new ones on the fly. We reason what certain powers fall into with the abilities we have.

 

[ÆONS]

Dereck's response seems to be the most reasonable to me.

 

[deonment]

That looks perfectly normal to me but seriously, what more is there to say when the verse itself treats the two things as different?

There can be multiple ways to express a single category of hax, and while the verse may differentiate it, it doesn't mean that the category they belong to isn't the same, a verse can differentiate between concepts of different types or hell within the same type, but it doesn't mean we make a new (and redundant) power for the differentiated concepts, manipulating logic and laws are the same, they only differ in execution.

 

[Embers_of_Twilight]

There can be multiple ways to express a single category of hax, and while the verse may differentiate it, it doesn't mean that the category they belong to isn't the same, a verse can differentiate between concepts of different types or hell within the same type, but it doesn't mean we make a new (and redundant) power for the differentiated concepts, manipulating logic and laws are the same, they only differ in execution.

The point is, logic is not simply a different kind of concept/law in the verse, it's not something that is same as them but merely on the potent side.

There's more to it.
It goes even fundamental than those concepts, forming the basis for those concept's existence and functions. It's just as like the essence that forms the basis of concepts, such as principles.

And once again it's further treated differently in-verse in the sense that there exists already hierarchy of orders/concepts/laws, such as nousgalia who is the father orders, he's the basis of other orders. But you wouldn't find any extraordinary feats from him like the way logic manipulation has.

The way the logic is showed in-verse is way more wider than simply being more on the potent side.

There's really other feats from the silver sea arcs, which might many already know that there exists layers within it. With even deeper layers not being able to do anything like reason/logic manipulation, despite them being more on the potent side. Those orders despite being layered can't do things beyond what their order entails, but reason/logic is completely freed from limitations and such, there's no boundary to what it can do within the verse.

I suppose those are few instances alongside the Anos vs Eques fight that Dereck mentioned above are the best proofs out there. It feels like simply the limitation of wiki which is prioritised by overlooking the verse mechanism, which defines a distinct difference between logic/reason and orders.

But
Welp
Let's see what other staffs gotta say on this.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Just switch Logic to Law on the profile and use the description to make sure people know the ins and outs.

Because if it's "Logic Manipulation" or "Law Manipulation" the effect is the same, ya'll are making a massive mountain out of the smallest anthill.

 

[Embers_of_Twilight]

Just switch Logic to Law on the profile and use the description to make sure people know the ins and outs.

Because if it's "Logic Manipulation" or "Law Manipulation" the effect is the same, ya'll are making a massive mountain out of the smallest anthill.

But making the distinction is necessary here.

The people here (maybe because of the lack of necessary evidence) are probably interpreting as something which is just named differently in the verse, but overally functions the same, with the sole difference that one is more potent than the other.

Which is, the untrue part of it, not clearly caring about the differences. If we list it as it is people are surely gonna think that just having a layered law manipulation resistance is enough to tackle this logic manipulation.

Which is, as I said above, not at all how the verse treats it to be. It feels a complete unfairly treatment of the ability here

 

[DaReaperMan]

But making the distinction is necessary here.

The people here (maybe because of the lack of necessary evidence) are probably interpreting as something which is just named differently in the verse, but overally functions the same, with the sole difference that one is more potent than the other.

Which is, the untrue part of it, not clearly caring about the differences. If we list it as it is people are surely gonna think that just having a layered law manipulation resistance is enough to tackle this logic manipulation.

Which is, as I said above, not at all how the verse treats it to be. It feels a complete unfairly treatment of the ability here

"Law Manipulation (Hey reader, ya dumbass, here's what this ability does. It's different then standard Law Manipulation.)"

Hey, look, I just fixed your problem!

 

[Embers_of_Twilight]

Hardly

 

[DaReaperMan]

Then there's nothing to be done for you. If the MGK supporters can put cringe like "even higher type 4!" on their profiles then they can do a long and drawn out explanation separating this stuff from the standard Law Manipulation.